American Student Looking into European Med Schools

[yonderson]

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Hi all. Questions about WESTERN European med schools that SPEAK ENGLISH:

1) Residency in the US. Will euro med school hurt chances for this? How much?
2) Length of program. 4 years? 5 years? etc.
3) Degree awarded. MD? or something else?
4) Cost?
5) Comments on specific schools? Britain vs. Ireland vs. Scotland, etc.

Also if anyone would like to give information specific to a euro med school that is most welcome. I know very little about this but am very interested in it. Thank you very much.

 

[yonderson]

Also interested in Australian programs.

 

[gyngyn]

I cannot recommend an overseas medical education if you hope to practice medicine in the US.
You will need to match into a US residency for which you will be at a huge disadvantage.

 

[s5260205]

All the answers could be found by searching the forum and going to each school website. If you are considering this route, you should do your own research and judge for yourself to see if it's worth the efforts.

 

[kraskadva]

Agree with @gyngyn
When I made the decision to pursue med school, I was already living overseas, so I looked into a number of these programs. While the medical education in Europe is generally good, your odds of being able to land a US residency (in order to practice in the US) are very low. You're not only competing for a limited number of spots, but you're already ranked lower by US residency adcoms on the assumption that you were either a) unable to get into med school in the US or b) not wise enough to figure out how to get into medical school in the US. They'd rather take a chance on the foreign national who's one of the best in their entire country than take a chance on an American who went abroad for med school.
Not to say it's totally impossible. Only that it's really, really, unlikely that everything would pan out the way you want.

If you're set on this though, there's far more info in the international forums.

 

[yonderson]

I cannot recommend an overseas medical education if you hope to practice medicine in the US.
You will need to match into a US residency for which you will be at a huge disadvantage.

Agree with @gyngyn
When I made the decision to pursue med school, I was already living overseas, so I looked into a number of these programs. While the medical education in Europe is generally good, your odds of being able to land a US residency (in order to practice in the US) are very low. You're not only competing for a limited number of spots, but you're already ranked lower by US residency adcoms on the assumption that you were either a) unable to get into med school in the US or b) not wise enough to figure out how to get into medical school in the US. They'd rather take a chance on the foreign national who's one of the best in their entire country than take a chance on an American who went abroad for med school.
Not to say it's totally impossible. Only that it's really, really, unlikely that everything would pan out the way you want.

If you're set on this though, there's far more info in the international forums.

Cool thanks for the replies. Do the Euro med schools not give the option to take the same USMLE as American schools? That could be incorrect, but it's just what I heard. If they do, and I happen to score on par with US students, why would the residency adcoms care if I didn't go to an American school? As long as I show my worth on the USMLE I mean...you know? But I'm not set on it by any means, I have just never really been abroad and I just think it would be a great experience but definitely not at the cost of residency competitiveness.

 

[gyngyn]

Cool thanks for the replies. Do the Euro med schools not give the option to take the same USMLE as American schools? That could be incorrect, but it's just what I heard. If they do, and I happen to score on par with US students, why would the residency adcoms care if I didn't go to an American school? As long as I show my worth on the USMLE I mean...you know? But I'm not set on it by any means, I have just never really been abroad and I just think it would be a great experience but definitely not at the cost of residency competitiveness.

The USMLE is only one of many hurdles for US IMG's.
Even with a good score, if you haven't done your clinical rotations here and become acquianted with expectations regarding charting and consent and the practice of US medicine, you will not be considered as good a candidate even compared to someone from here with lower scores. US Seniors are the preferred substrate.

 

[petyr_baelish]

I'd also like to caution against the mentality of "Oh, I'll just attend this foreign medical school and stay there if I don't match in the USA." <-- Not a viable route in Canada, Australia, Ireland, Hong Kong or the UK unless you are a citizen of those countries. Internship shortages in Western countries are global.
I have lived in all of the above countries and know what their medical system looks like on the ground. Go to medical school where you are a citizen is the best advice I have.

 

[Law2Doc]

Cool thanks for the replies. Do the Euro med schools not give the option to take the same USMLE as American schools? That could be incorrect, but it's just what I heard. If they do, and I happen to score on par with US students, why would the residency adcoms care if I didn't go to an American school? As long as I show my worth on the USMLE I mean...you know? But I'm not set on it by any means, I have just never really been abroad and I just think it would be a great experience but definitely not at the cost of residency competitiveness.

USMLE isn't the end all, be all. We don't consider a foreign trained person who scores well on USMLE to have proven anything of significance. Those foreign grads who get spots inevitably lose out to a ton of US grads with lower scores. Why? Because having gone through LCME accredited training is considered the more valuable asset -- residencies have a good sense of what your rotations were like and how ready you are to start residency.

 

[Medix450]

I find it unusual that UK or even other certain european grads wouldn't be compared on fairly equal footing. Isn't the UK (and basically the rest of western Europe) known for having the best health care system in the world, which would include training the best doctors? Say a US grad went to a prestigious med school like Oxford or UCL. Would they still be disadvantaged?

I guess the same argument could be applied to Australian medical schools.

 

[Law2Doc]

I find it unusual that UK or even other certain european grads wouldn't be compared on fairly equal footing. Isn't the UK (and basically the rest of western Europe) known for having the best health care system in the world, which would include training the best doctors? Say a US grad went to a prestigious med school like Oxford or UCL. Would they still be disadvantaged?

I guess the same argument could be applied to Australian medical schools.

1. US doctors are better trained for practicing IN THE US. Patient expectations are different here and a lot of medicine is about style points-- more art than science. It's like a football team trying to switch from a 3-4 to a 4-3 defense -- the same personnel simply don't work well for both. So a good UK doctor is often not going to shine here.

2. yes every non US allo school is disadvantaged. Maybe not as disadvanted as the Caribbean, but you really aren't in the first round of consideration if you don't school here.

 

[ZX10R]

Isn't the UK (and basically the rest of western Europe) known for having the best health care system in the world, which would include training the best doctors? Say a US grad went to a prestigious med school like Oxford or UCL. Would they still be disadvantaged?

That's exactly why when crap hits the fan wealthy Europeans come to the US for healthcare. Don't believe the statistics released by WHO ect., they are made to make the U.S. healthcare system look bad and outdated. I had a High school friend who didn't want to go through all the BS to get into an US MD schools so he went to a European Medical school that was considered one of the better ones. It's been 7 years since he graduated and he's still not gotten into a residency yet.

STEP 1/2/3 are only tests, if they were the end all be all then every US medical school would teach to the test. This does not happen in the majority of schools; they teach how to be good physicians for the predicted problems of the future.

 

[kraskadva]

Cool thanks for the replies. Do the Euro med schools not give the option to take the same USMLE as American schools? That could be incorrect, but it's just what I heard.

It's not standard for them to offer the USMLEs, as they have their own licensing exams, but you can arrange to take them.

If they do, and I happen to score on par with US students, why would the residency adcoms care if I didn't go to an American school? As long as I show my worth on the USMLE I mean...you know?

1) gyngyn's post above
2) I asked the same thing of a relative who's a residency adcom.
She said - you have to take not only USMLE 1 & 2, like any US med school grad, but also USMLE 3, which is typically taken after the 1st year of residency, and an additional 'do you speak medical English' test, regardless of your native language. And you have to score, not on par with US grads, but significantly higher in order to have any real shot at a spot.
So... thousands of extra dollars in testing fees, expectations of brilliance, and low odds (which also decrease every year as the residency shortage continues to grow).

But I'm not set on it by any means, I have just never really been abroad and I just think it would be a great experience but definitely not at the cost of residency competitiveness.

If you just want to travel, then go travel. But don't think med school abroad is like teaching English abroad, where you can just come back and pick up where you left off.

 

[Medix450]

ok so I get that US schooling system is better for practicing in the US, but I guess that sort of stuff would be drilled into you during the clinical years (MS3/4). The first two years being basic science oriented, would probably not make a difference where they were done, as long as the curriculum is the same right? So by this logic, would Euro schools such as ones in Poland which offer the chance to do clinical rotations in the US at places such as UCLA, and other rather big name Cali universities be a better option if wanting to return to the US?

I appreciate all these answers!

 

[Law2Doc]

ok so I get that US schooling system is better for practicing in the US, but I guess that sort of stuff would be drilled into you during the clinical years (MS3/4). The first two years being basic science oriented, would probably not make a difference where they were done, as long as the curriculum is the same right? So by this logic, would Euro schools such as ones in Poland which offer the chance to do clinical rotations in the US at places such as UCLA, and other rather big name Cali universities be a better option if wanting to return to the US?

I appreciate all these answers!

No. You never get the same clinical rotations. At best you get some contracted for "lite" version of a rotation. So you always get viewed as second tier. Bad bad idea.

 

[DepressedEngineer]

Do you have a degree? What is your gpa ? you might consider a post bach

 

[caffeinemia]

No. You never get the same clinical rotations. At best you get some contracted for "lite" version of a rotation. So you always get viewed as second tier. Bad bad idea.

Agreed. Furthermore ... Your diploma says "x polish university" not university of California. You will have to get all this ecfmg crap and thhhhhhen fight for residency against a bazillion us grads.

 

[yonderson]

No. You never get the same clinical rotations. At best you get some contracted for "lite" version of a rotation. So you always get viewed as second tier. Bad bad idea.

Law2Doc are you still happy with your decision to change from law to med? I wanted to go to law school until I worked in an office for a year. My dad's a lawyer...loves the law and hates being a lawyer. He says if he were to do it all again he would be a neurosurgeon or a neuroradiologist...neurosurgeon because he likes the brain and thinks it's really cool, neuroradiologist because he likes the brain and hates dealing with people. He has been co-counsel on a few traumatic brain injury cases and the amount of medical knowledge the lawyers have to learn for that kind of thing is astounding.

 

[Law2Doc]

Law2Doc are you still happy with your decision to change from law to med? I wanted to go to law school until I worked in an office for a year. My dad's a lawyer...loves the law and hates being a lawyer. He says if he were to do it all again he would be a neurosurgeon or a neuroradiologist...neurosurgeon because he likes the brain and thinks it's really cool, neuroradiologist because he likes the brain and hates dealing with people. He has been co-counsel on a few traumatic brain injury cases and the amount of medical knowledge the lawyers have to learn for that kind of thing is astounding.

Law was great, medicine for me is better. However I suspect your dad has an over glamorized view of medicine, how little certain specialties deal with people, etc and is suffering from grass is greener notions. The practice of law and medicine have a lot of similarities -- at their heart they are both hierarchical fields, with lots of paperwork, politics and liability risk, where you leverage your knowledge and provide a service to a client -- and so if you have frustrations with one, you'll often have similar frustrations in another. You aren't going to get to stand in an OR or sit in a dark room all day and marvel at the wonder of the human brain.

I've also seen enough medically related law cases to know that it's really how little lawyers actually have to understand to work on these cases is what's really the astounding part. Your dad probably THINKS he learned a lot, while his expert likely goes home thinking "I've dumbed it down as much as I could -- i really hope he understood enough of it to get by, because I have my doubts, based on his glazed over eyes and poorly thought out questions "-- And that's not an insult to your dad, but a reflection if how deluded most lawyers are, and how little science most understand. I was one at one time and as much as you'd like to pretend you are learning things, or have enough of a foundation to grasp difficult medical concepts and be able to talk competntly during your case, there's really only so much you can absorb from experts or teach yourself while preparing for a case in any field that requires four years of med school and nearly a decade of residency and fellowship (in the case of neurosurgery) to master. The way an adult explains difficult concepts to a two year old is pretty analogous to the way a neurosurgeon has to explain neurosurgery to a lawyer. And again this isn't an insult to the lawyer -- he's just not got the requisite schooling and training as foundation to receive this kind of info. Like law, in medicine, all your value and stock is really measured by those areas everybody doesn't already know after a single med school course, and those things that take years of training to even comprehend. Which is why anyone patting themselves on the back as "amazing how much they've learned" in just a couple of hours of case prep on a brain injury case is kind of amusing.

 

[yonderson]

Law was great, medicine for me is better. However I suspect your dad has an over glamorized view of medicine, how little certain specialties deal with people, etc and is suffering from grass is greener notions. The practice of law and medicine have a lot of similarities -- at their heart they are both hierarchical fields, with lots of paperwork, politics and liability risk, where you leverage your knowledge and provide a service to a client -- and so if you have frustrations with one, you'll often have similar frustrations in another. You aren't going to get to stand in an OR or sit in a dark room all day and marvel at the wonder of the human brain.

I've also seen enough medically related law cases to know that it's really how little lawyers actually have to understand to work on these cases is what's really the astounding part. Your dad probably THINKS he learned a lot, while his expert likely goes home thinking "I've dumbed it down as much as I could -- i really hope he understood enough of it to get by, because I have my doubts, based on his glazed over eyes and poorly thought out questions "-- And that's not an insult to your dad, but a reflection if how deluded most lawyers are, and how little science most understand. I was one at one time and as much as you'd like to pretend you are learning things, or have enough of a foundation to grasp difficult medical concepts and be able to talk competntly during your case, there's really only so much you can absorb from experts or teach yourself while preparing for a case in any field that requires four years of med school and nearly a decade of residency and fellowship (in the case of neurosurgery) to master. The way an adult explains difficult concepts to a two year old is pretty analogous to the way a neurosurgeon has to explain neurosurgery to a lawyer. And again this isn't an insult to the lawyer -- he's just not got the requisite schooling and training as foundation to receive this kind of info. Like law, in medicine, all your value and stock is really measured by those areas everybody doesn't already know after a single med school course, and those things that take years of training to even comprehend. Which is why anyone patting themselves on the back as "amazing how much they've learned" in just a couple of hours of case prep on a brain injury case is kind of amusing.

Nah my dad's not an arrogant SOB haha. He doesn't think he learned much at all. That was me referring to how amazed I am at the amount of medical knowledge he knew compared to the amount that I know. Both of us have a breadth of knowledge paling in comparison to MD's and DO's. Glad to see you are still happy with your decision. Are you on an adcom? Let me tell you this story. I know a guy who graduated from a top 50 university in the honors college with a 4.0 and a 38 MCAT. He spent five years after college in the Army as a scientist and left as a captain and applied to his home state medical school (which is not known as being one of the more competitive state schools) for the MD/PhD program. Did not get in. Applied a second time after doing a fellowship with the CDC. Did not get in. Spent a year working as an instructor of biology/part time researcher at a fairly prestigious private university. Applied a third time. Finally got in. In the interview, the guy said, "Why didn't you get in the first time? You absolutely should have." I kid you not. Annoying and extremely frightening to us pre-meds haha.

 

[caffeinemia]

Nah my dad's not an arrogant SOB haha. He doesn't think he learned much at all. That was me referring to how amazed I am at the amount of medical knowledge he knew compared to the amount that I know. Both of us have a breadth of knowledge paling in comparison to MD's and DO's. Glad to see you are still happy with your decision. Are you on an adcom? Let me tell you this story. I know a guy who graduated from a top 50 university in the honors college with a 4.0 and a 38 MCAT. He spent five years after college in the Army as a scientist and left as a captain and applied to his home state medical school (which is not known as being one of the more competitive state schools) for the MD/PhD program. Did not get in. Applied a second time after doing a fellowship with the CDC. Did not get in. Spent a year working as an instructor of biology/part time researcher at a fairly prestigious private university. Applied a third time. Finally got in. In the interview, the guy said, "Why didn't you get in the first time? You absolutely should have." I kid you not. Annoying and extremely frightening to us pre-meds haha.

Better candidates that year? Terrible personal statement? Poor interview skills? Unlucky? There are intangibles that make it hard to analyze sometimes.

Honestly, I was perfectly qualified for Stanford but walked out of one of three interviews that day knowing I didn't get in. That interview was the deal breaker. The reason? I interviewed with someone whose personality and views just did not click with mine - and I was not afraid to express my views. So that's that. I still got into plenty of other places, and perhaps that's why the wisdom is to apply broadly, so you can hedge against random risks.

 

[bashwell]

I agree US med school is best for practicing in the US.

If you're a dual US and Aussie citizen, and would be happy in either country, and aren't going for the competitive specialties, then UQ Ochsner is quite good. First two years in Brisbane, Australia, final two years in Louisiana.

 

[DepressedEngineer]

Better candidates that year? Terrible personal statement? Poor interview skills? Unlucky? There are intangibles that make it hard to analyze sometimes.

Honestly, I was perfectly qualified for Stanford but walked out of one of three interviews that day knowing I didn't get in. That interview was the deal breaker. The reason? I interviewed with someone whose personality and views just did not click with mine - and I was not afraid to express my views. So that's that. I still got into plenty of other places, and perhaps that's why the wisdom is to apply broadly, so you can hedge against random risks.

Just curious...Can you please explain how their personalty differed with yours? I feel like this should be a type of discrimination. People shouldn't change their personalities just to suit the interviewee. You should have gotten accepted.

 

[caffeinemia]

Not really. We just disagreed on topics and when he pressed me I didn't concede jyst because he was an attending. Some consider that having a backbone, some consider that rude. That's life. What I'm saying is that sometimes there's a great "fit" on interview day and sometimes there isn't, but it's not truly representative of how well any student might do at the institution. Essentially, there's a lot of intangible bs.

 

[DepressedEngineer]

Not really. We just disagreed on topics and when he pressed me I didn't concede jyst because he was an attending. Some consider that having a backbone, some consider that rude. That's life. What I'm saying is that sometimes there's a great "fit" on interview day and sometimes there isn't, but it's not truly representative of how well any student might do at the institution. Essentially, there's a lot of intangible bs.

Well put. There is a lot of intangible. You have a backbone and your confidence is an asset. Congratulations and I wish you further success in your pursuits.