Americans working hard?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Solideliquid

Members Only
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
898
Reaction score
1
"Only industrialised nation without mandatory paid vacation"

I love how CNN slips in that little socialist blurb. Just another push towards a massive nanny state.
 
Isn't the whole idea of "paid vacation" silly? A job pays what it pays. Having the employer hold back 2 weeks of pay to cover a vacation rather than just getting that money as it's earned and saving it for the vacation is like admitting you're too stupid to manage your own money. Kind of like Social Security.
 
Well in defense of our workers, I will state the following points that are not made in the stupid report.

1) People might work more hours outside the US but their jobs a lot of time are not "true" work. I am not saying they are lazy, I am saying their pace is a lot slower and I attribute that to have 1 + 0.5 day weekends as opposed to the 2 day weekend we have in the US. Many countries work 5.5 days a week, not 5.

2) We truly dont get as many sick days, personal days or any days really. This of course varies but truly taking sick days for hour workers is a challange, not just in the medical field. If a company can avoid needing you for the two weeks you are sick then why did they hire you in the first place? Personally I think that's a sad mentality but that's the way it currently is. This is not as true outside the US. There is more loyalty to the worker.

3) There are 10 million illegals in this country. I am sure they are doing some jobs with serious overtime put in. I am pretty sure they are not counted and that the survey is counting the "desk" jobs more likely.
 
Isn't the whole idea of "paid vacation" silly? A job pays what it pays. Having the employer hold back 2 weeks of pay to cover a vacation rather than just getting that money as it's earned and saving it for the vacation is like admitting you're too stupid to manage your own money. Kind of like Social Security.

I am yet to figure out why people can't figure out that a "paid 2 week vacation" is just getting 50 weeks of pay over 52 weeks.
 
I'm gonna contradict you all and say that it's not 48 weeks paid over 52 weeks.

As far as I am concerned, big industries/companies would have happily work you the 52 weeks and not raise you a dime as if you worked the 48 week weeks only. (Though I cant disagree with the tire analogy.)
 
Having lived in Spain for about half my adult life...I can say that compared to Spaniards yes, Americans do work more hours and seem much more productive (no, I have no hard data to back this up). I often visit Spain and there are TONS of coffee breaks/smoke breaks/whatever breaks in the daily works hours. Also, there are many many holidays in Spain...it seems that three day weekends called "puentes" are the norm.
 
Yes we work hard. That's why we're #1. It's one of the reasons people from all over the world leave their respective countries, some risking their lives, just to be able to live here. FMGs start their residencies all over from scratch just to be able to practice here. You can't be a world leader by having workers go home for 3 hour naps like some other countries.
 
You can't be a world leader by having workers go home for 3 hour naps like some other countries.

What other countries? I'm very interested to know. My guess is you probably know nothing about the rest of the world. I doubt you've even been outside your hometown, let alone the United States.
 
What other countries? I'm very interested to know.

It was a figure of speech. People slobber about all the vacation time and free time other countries have. Well that's great and all. But you can't be a world leader when your workforce is perpetually out to lunch.

My guess is you probably know nothing about the rest of the world. I doubt you've even been outside your hometown, let alone the United States.

I don't need to. People from around the world leave everything they have just to come here. I don't feel the need to go travelling around the world just to impress some coffee house intellectuals about how well travelled I am.
 
It was a figure of speech. People slobber about all the vacation time and free time other countries have. Well that's great and all. But you can't be a world leader when your workforce is perpetually out to lunch.



I don't need to. People from around the world leave everything they have just to come here. I don't feel the need to go travelling around the world just to impress some coffee house intellectuals about how well travelled I am.


Is this guy for real? He's like a caricature of the self-absorbed, cultural elitist American. Attitudes like this perpetuate the disdain that a huge percentage of the global community has for us. Take off the blinders man. The U.S. is an incredible country in many ways, but you'll never truly know it if you don't go abroad and see for yourself. It's not about impressing anyone, it's about expanding your own perspective.
 
Is this guy for real? He's like a caricature of the self-absorbed, cultural elitist American. Attitudes like this perpetuate the disdain that a huge percentage of the global community has for us. Take off the blinders man. The U.S. is an incredible country in many ways, but you'll never truly know it if you don't go abroad and see for yourself. It's not about impressing anyone, it's about expanding your own perspective.

Misterioso is playing out on the internet what his inner child is telling him. Remember the time when you rounded with that one attending and he claimed something and then said how it is so smart to make that claim. You just nodded in agreement but your inner voice is screaming "that was the most stupid thing I ever heard". Misterioso is letting out that inner voice. Most people know better, they suppress it and move on. They find another way to vent it out... but Misterioso, he comes here and unloads stupid opinions he can't say in public. :meanie:
 
Misterioso is playing out on the internet what his inner child is telling him. Remember the time when you rounded with that one attending and he claimed something and then said how it is so smart to make that claim. You just nodded in agreement but your inner voice is screaming "that was the most stupid thing I ever heard". Misterioso is letting out that inner voice. Most people know better, they suppress it and move on. They find another way to vent it out... but Misterioso, he comes here and unloads stupid opinions he can't say in public. :meanie:

Either that, or he's making inflammatory statements just to get attention. In most cases, its probably the latter. I shouldn't even have made the response I did to his post. Just happened to be pretty cranky that day. Generally, I don't even take Misterioso very seriously. Most of the time, his posts are good for a laugh.
 
I don't need to. People from around the world leave everything they have just to come here. I don't feel the need to go travelling around the world just to impress some coffee house intellectuals about how well travelled I am.

typical ugly american talking...

I dont see many europeans here except the eastern europeans here and there.. I dont see germans here... french here.. spaniards here.. and so on and so on and so on..
 
I dont see many europeans here except the eastern europeans here and there.. I dont see germans here... french here.. spaniards here.. and so on and so on and so on..

You need to get out more often then. They're all over the place.

Anyway, I don't subscribe to this whole "America isn't all that" mumbo jumbo. We live in the greatest country in the world. Except the ingrates disparage how good they have it and hype up other countries. You know like the resume padders who go on a medical mission to some 3rd world country and then come back and give me strife for enjoying my Starbucks and not caring about what goes on outside the U.S. Shut up and go practice medicine in whatever hole you went to if you don't like it here. The thing is U.S. med graduates rarely uproot their entire lives to go practice in another country, but every year thousands and thousands of FMGs from all over the world do just that to live and practice here. That pretty much says it all.
 
You need to get out more often then. They're all over the place.

Anyway, I don't subscribe to this whole "America isn't all that" mumbo jumbo. We live in the greatest country in the world.

Yeah, I noticed the Confederate flag in your avatar. If America is so great, why are you advertising for an army that wanted to secede from it at one time :meanie: ?
 
I'm not sure that insultng someone who stereotypes by stereotyping them really proves your point.

Right on. Seems like if you defend America you're labelled a redneck or ignorant by people who disparage the country they live in while they trump up other countries. Nobody can deny that people from all over the world leave behind their countries (including some of those utopian countries you like to hype up) to live and practice right here in the good 'ol USA. You'd be hard pressed to find U.S. doctors who do the same. Now I know somebody's gonna pipe up with a claim of a cousin's plumber's doctor who left the USA permanently to go practice in some other country, but we're talking relatively speaking. For every one of those there's countless thousands of foreign docs who leave everything behind to come to the U.S. Actions speak louder than words.
 
Yeah, I noticed the Confederate flag in your avatar. If America is so great, why are you advertising for an army that wanted to secede from it at one time :meanie: ?

There's no if about our greatness. The only if is that it might of been greater if the good guys had won.
 
There's no if about our greatness. The only if is that it might of been greater if the good guys had won.

Wow! I think America is a great country, and I feel blessed to live here. I immigrated here legally a long time ago and will become a naturalized citizen next week. However, since when are the old confederate states considered the good guys?
 
I am one of those IMGs going to America...And yes I am here now and I think it is great. I will hold my criticisms because, well, I am a guest here. That being said, I do believe Mr. Misterioso that you may be limiting yourself too much. There is a lot of beauty outside the US too, you know? And appreciating them doesn't mean you are loving Uncle Sam any less...lol...
 
Right on. Seems like if you defend America you're labelled a redneck or ignorant by people who disparage the country they live in while they trump up other countries. Nobody can deny that people from all over the world leave behind their countries (including some of those utopian countries you like to hype up) to live and practice right here in the good 'ol USA. You'd be hard pressed to find U.S. doctors who do the same. Now I know somebody's gonna pipe up with a claim of a cousin's plumber's doctor who left the USA permanently to go practice in some other country, but we're talking relatively speaking. For every one of those there's countless thousands of foreign docs who leave everything behind to come to the U.S. Actions speak louder than words.


there are plenty of americans abroad.. plenty of people who flock to france, england germany... australia japan etc etc...
 
There's no if about our greatness. The only if is that it might of been greater if the good guys had won.

The good guys did win. The Union army. That's why the United States is one country today, instead of being divided into Union and Confederate states.
 
Wow! I think America is a great country, and I feel blessed to live here. I immigrated here legally a long time ago and will become a naturalized citizen next week. However, since when are the old confederate states considered the good guys?

:laugh: You haven't spent a lot of time in Alabama or Mississippi have you? There are a few different perspectives on this to this day.
 
:laugh: You haven't spent a lot of time in Alabama or Mississippi have you? There are a few different perspectives on this to this day.

True don't get me wrong. I have passed thru those states before, and there are definitely quite a few pickups in Texas plastered with confederate flags. I guess my comment was just a sarcastic one. I did grow up in the south ...well southwest that is. I also went to college in the south.
 
People who think the the Confederates were the good guys are seriously missing the point. Get over it, it was over 150 years ago. It's not even an issue anymore.

That being said, America still is the best nation on earth...hands down.
 
In Australia, interns work 38 hours per week, full time. Who cares if they're the best, they're awake when their patient codes. Sleepy = drunk.
 
BTW, everyone should travel. Then you *might* have a reason to say (fill in the blank) isn't as good as America...
But you also may be surprised.
 
In Australia, interns work 38 hours per week, full time. Who cares if they're the best, they're awake when their patient codes. Sleepy = drunk.
uh if interns or residents just work 36 hours per week how long is a typical residency?
 
Internship, house officer, then 3 or 4 years general physician training (I can't remember which)... so, 6?
 
It was a figure of speech. People slobber about all the vacation time and free time other countries have. Well that's great and all. But you can't be a world leader when your workforce is perpetually out to lunch.



I don't need to. People from around the world leave everything they have just to come here. I don't feel the need to go travelling around the world just to impress some coffee house intellectuals about how well travelled I
am.

I think you are confusing two things here.

The citizens of countries with "all the vacation time and free time" do not immigrate here in large numbers. It is citizens from countries withoutall those nice benefits that tend to flock here (Mexico, Guatemala, India, China etc).

You are comparing the US to Western Europe and saying that the reason America is better is because people from nonWestern European countries come here. That is not a sign that Europeans have an inferior system than here. It is because it is far easier to immigrate and attain citizenship in the US than in W. Europe currently. I know plenty of Chinese that aim for the US because they 'don't let you stay' if you go to Europe. A family friend studied in Denmark for two years for graduate school, then got a job offer, but the gov't won't give her a work visa, so she had to go back to China. It is rare in the US to have a legal, foreign student with a job be told they are not allowed to stay here. My parents immigrated here in the 80's and the vast majority of Chinese graduate students who came here had no difficulties staying. As a result, Chinese students in China tend to immigrate to the US rather than Europe, knowing that their ability to get a green card is far easier than in Europe. Of course, I think this welcoming attitude also contributes to making America great but that's a debate for another day.....



Right on. Seems like if you defend America you're labelled a redneck or ignorant by people who disparage the country they live in while they trump up other countries. Nobody can deny that people from all over the world leave behind their countries (including some of those utopian countries you like to hype up) to live and practice right here in the good 'ol USA. You'd be hard pressed to find U.S. doctors who do the same. Now I know somebody's gonna pipe up with a claim of a cousin's plumber's doctor who left the USA permanently to go practice in some other country, but we're talking relatively speaking. For every one of those there's countless thousands of foreign docs who leave everything behind to come to the U.S. Actions speak louder than words.

Very few foreigners, even foreign doctors who come here, are from Western Europe, Australia, or Japan. Far more, they tend to be from India or China where physicians, while well paid, do not experience the higher standard of living that doctors experience here.

This has less to do with the 'system' that those countries reside in (as India is a democracy and China no longer has a socialist health care system), and more to do with the development stage of the respective countries.

In other words, doctors from poorer countries tend to immigrate to the US, doctors from industrialized countries, of which some are socialist, do not.

There is no influx of French, Japanese, or German doctors. No brain drain from those countries. In fact, I would say, the exchange is about even. We have US doctors going over there, and vice versa. The few doctors I have seen who are from these developed nations tend to have come here for their own, personal reasons, and not because they hate their native country or they think they enjoy a higher standard of living here (I have seen none that believe this).

In fact, many foreigners who immigrate here still have issues with US foreign policy. My parents lived here for 20 years, and their ideas of American arrogance has only been reinforced by the Bush administration. However, don't confuse criticism of a country for hatred of it. Just like a loving parent is one that criticizes a child, a true patriot is one that can criticize the country but still believe in its potential.

And I would recommend for everyone get a chance to go abroad. It is supremely arrogant (and laughable) to assume that your country is great without having lived anywhere else. And going abroad doesn't mean you will learn to hate America, but it may give you a new perspective on how the world operates, how your country operates, force you to rethink your long held beliefs and make you a better person. IMHO, people who say they have no need to go abroad to learn America is great are just speaking from ignorance.
 
uh if interns or residents just work 36 hours per week how long is a typical residency?

That's the catch. Countries where residents work less hours have to work more years to become attendings. Here it takes only 3 years of residency to become an attending in a lot of the non-surgical specialties and 5 years in most surgical specialties. In other countries it takes about twice as long if not more. So you're looking at about 10 years after med school to become a surgery attending in those countries.

Not to mention over here it is all but guaranteed to have an attending job waiting for you as soon as you finish residency. In other countries you have to wait your turn in line for who knows how many years until one opens up and you may get chosen to fill it. We have a dude here from the UK who's been waiting for years to get a consultant position back home and is here doing yet another fellowship to make himself more competetive for once a consultant position opens up. Do you want to be pushing 40 and still waiting to become an attending even though you've finished all your training? It might sound all nice and dandy having to work less than 40 hours/week during residency, but they don't tell you about the downsides of it.
 
I think you are confusing two things here.

The citizens of countries with "all the vacation time and free time" do not immigrate here in large numbers. It is citizens from countries withoutall those nice benefits that tend to flock here (Mexico, Guatemala, India, China etc).

You are comparing the US to Western Europe and saying that the reason America is better is because people from nonWestern European countries come here. That is not a sign that Europeans have an inferior system than here. It is because it is far easier to immigrate and attain citizenship in the US than in W. Europe currently. I know plenty of Chinese that aim for the US because they 'don't let you stay' if you go to Europe. A family friend studied in Denmark for two years for graduate school, then got a job offer, but the gov't won't give her a work visa, so she had to go back to China. It is rare in the US to have a legal, foreign student with a job be told they are not allowed to stay here. My parents immigrated here in the 80's and the vast majority of Chinese graduate students who came here had no difficulties staying. As a result, Chinese students in China tend to immigrate to the US rather than Europe, knowing that their ability to get a green card is far easier than in Europe. Of course, I think this welcoming attitude also contributes to making America great but that's a debate for another day.....





Very few foreigners, even foreign doctors who come here, are from Western Europe, Australia, or Japan. Far more, they tend to be from India or China where physicians, while well paid, do not experience the higher standard of living that doctors experience here.

This has less to do with the 'system' that those countries reside in (as India is a democracy and China no longer has a socialist health care system), and more to do with the development stage of the respective countries.

In other words, doctors from poorer countries tend to immigrate to the US, doctors from industrialized countries, of which some are socialist, do not.

There is no influx of French, Japanese, or German doctors. No brain drain from those countries. In fact, I would say, the exchange is about even. We have US doctors going over there, and vice versa. The few doctors I have seen who are from these developed nations tend to have come here for their own, personal reasons, and not because they hate their native country or they think they enjoy a higher standard of living here (I have seen none that believe this).

In fact, many foreigners who immigrate here still have issues with US foreign policy. My parents lived here for 20 years, and their ideas of American arrogance has only been reinforced by the Bush administration. However, don't confuse criticism of a country for hatred of it. Just like a loving parent is one that criticizes a child, a true patriot is one that can see the countries but still believe in its potential.

And I would recommend for everyone get a chance to go abroad. It is supremely arrogant (and laughable) to assume that your country is great without having lived anywhere else. And going abroad doesn't mean you will learn to hate America, but it may give you a new perspective on how the world operates, how your country operates, force you to rethink your long held beliefs and make you a better person. IMHO, people who say they have no need to go abroad to learn America is great are just speaking from ignorance.

🙂
 
I'm not sure that insultng someone who stereotypes by stereotyping them really proves your point. There's plenty of ignorance amongst "educated" people within all political spectrums. Education is not tantamount to espousing a particular political or social philosophy. True education should teach you to think critically, and it's doubtful that you'd fit nicely into any particular stereotype.
Deleted. Controversial.
 
Misterioso; you sound like a white, evangelical, republican guy from the Bible belt.
Why do you think Misterioso sounds like an evangelical? Have any of his posts demonstrated a desire to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Also, I wonder whether you merely think it's interesting to show that you think you have him pegged, or whether you think "white," "evangelical," "Republican," and "Bible belt" are all automatic insults. After all, I could say you sound like a white, irreligious, Democratic guy from the blue-state Northeast or West Coast, but there wouldn't be much point in doing so unless I thought our audience assumed all those things were bad, would there?

NonTradMed said:
In fact, many foreigners who immigrate here still have issues with US foreign policy.
Then they shouldn't be here. The last thing we need in America is more foreigners who don't like America.
 
Why do you think Misterioso sounds like an evangelical? Have any of his posts demonstrated a desire to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Also, I wonder whether you merely think it's interesting to show that you think you have him pegged, or whether you think "white," "evangelical," "Republican," and "Bible belt" are all automatic insults. After all, I could say you sound like a white, irreligious, Democratic guy from the blue-state Northeast or West Coast, but there wouldn't be much point in doing so unless I thought our audience assumed all those things were bad, would there?

Unlike you, I do not think the adjectives above are insults. They might be good for some, bad for others. But they just happened to be commonly associated with each other.
 
That's the catch. Countries where residents work less hours have to work more years to become attendings. Here it takes only 3 years of residency to become an attending in a lot of the non-surgical specialties and 5 years in most surgical specialties. In other countries it takes about twice as long if not more. So you're looking at about 10 years after med school to become a surgery attending in those countries.

.

not a very good argument - in UK and Germany you go to medical school right after high school - thus, even though residency is longer, they finish up at about the same avg. age we do here.....
 
typical ugly american talking...

I dont see many europeans here except the eastern europeans here and there.. I dont see germans here... french here.. spaniards here.. and so on and so on and so on..

What does being 'ugly' have to do with the argument at all?

A very immature comment.

It is a fact that other Westernized countries in the world have more holidays than Americans.

I believe this contributes to a higher quality of life. That being said, the US is a very productive country. Look at the price of manufactured goods there compared to other Western countries.

There is a tradeoff.
 
In Australia, interns work 38 hours per week, full time. Who cares if they're the best, they're awake when their patient codes. Sleepy = drunk.

A minor correction to that is that they work 80 hours over a fortnight (80 hours over 2 weeks) but often with rostered overtime. (paid I might add)

Also, internship in Australia is different than internship in the US. You are not in a training position in Australia for several years and compete for one whereas in the US, interns are in a specialty training program so the demands on time are different as are the responsibilities.
 
not a very good argument - in UK and Germany you go to medical school right after high school - thus, even though residency is longer, they finish up at about the same avg. age we do here.....

UK schools are switching to Graduate entry - many students are now older.

Also, your University degree is 4 years - they can spend many more additional years in training because they need to compete for 'registrar' positions. You may never get to specialize.
 
Top