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[CL Doc]

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This is just classic optometry.

One persons classic is anothers archaic.

Most of the stuff this person claims to do isn't used in real world optometry.

I'm surprised they still teach some of this stuff.

 

[CL Doc]

Let me break it down for you son.

First, it's not possible to quote stuff that you've changed if I didn't copy it down beforehand. I'm not that obsessed over you. The reverse doesn't seem to be true. Post a screenshot of your NBEO score display. Mine will go up as soon as yours does. Feel free to black the name out.

It takes about 1 minute to apply dilation drops to someone, explain what they do and walk them out of the room. It takes another minute to call them back in and get them seated. It takes about 2 minutes to view the periphery / posterior pole. If your exam flow is halfway decent this will add a whole... five minutes? To your exam sequence. Have you not performed optometry outside a school setting? Let me guess, your eye exams take 2.5 hours and are finished up by asking your attending, "so where was that cataract you were talking about?"K

It takes about 20 seconds to view the nerve and macula of both eyes using a direct scope, and adds maybe 30 seconds to slit lamp to do undilated 90D. It takes about 2 minutes to do undilated MIO views to the mid-periphery on a average-cooperativity patient. ITS NOT THAT HARD BRO. I believe there's an advantage to seeing things at all magnifications, and it adds nearly nothing to my exam time. Tell me, how long does it take for YOU TO DO YOUR POSTERIOR EXAMS? Leme guess, peek with a 90D that takes 10 minutes because you can't get a view on 10mm pupils?

Again, let me break it down for you again: the manager at AB gets bonused on FDTs. They cost $15. FDTs are free if the patient dilates. It's A LOT EASIER for me to talk a patient into spending $15 on dilating than for the tech to talk someone into shelling out $15 for something that she can't explain that well. Hence, the manager LOVES THAT I DILATE. CAN THIS NOT BE MORE CLEAR TO YOU?

About home made exam room equipment: it's cheap, it works, and it works because I understand how it's built. I've used that eikonometer a few times. My homemade fundus camera is pretty ****ing awesome. Not ashamed of it, buddy.

Signing off for the night. I feel that I've gotten

 

[KHE]

I don't get it...

Here's a guy who is so smart that he has near perfect SAT scores, near perfect OAT scores, MCAT and LSAT scores that mean nothing to me but I'm assuming they are through the roof, a near 4.0 GPA in optometry school while hardly attending class and working 40 hours a week and raising a family, who gets offered residencies and a fellowship at Bascom Palmer without the hassle of going through the match, that he builds his own eikonometers and Turville ballances by hand, has a remake rate of less than 1% and yet.....

He's working at America's Best.

I don't know whether to laugh or genuinely feel sorry for the guy. I am reminded of this quote from Jon Lovitz in A League of Their Own.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7stpw4UfAs

 

[Jason K]

First, it's not possible to quote stuff that you've changed if I didn't copy it down beforehand.

Well, I might as well start calling you "netmag," since he used the same tactic. "I'll just make stuff up about something another poster says, and then when I'm called out on it, I'll just pretend like nothing happened." You've reached the bottom of the desperation pit - you're in it so deep, I can hear the echos from below.

Post a screenshot of your NBEO score display. Mine will go up as soon as yours does. Feel free to black the name out.

Listen, SackTickler - there will be no NBEO score being "screenshot" and posted on SDN. For one, it would be ridiculously easy to fabricate, but mostly, I just love the fact that you're sitting in your parents' basement wondering. Keep asking, though - it's fun to see you grovel.

It takes about 1 minute to apply dilation drops to someone, explain what they do and walk them out of the room. It takes another minute to call them back in and get them seated. It takes about 2 minutes to view the periphery / posterior pole. If your exam flow is halfway decent this will add a whole... five minutes? To your exam sequence. Have you not performed optometry outside a school setting?

Still with the desperate attempts to justify an unrealistic exam sequence? Still?

Let me guess, your eye exams take 2.5 hours and are finished up by asking your attending, "so where was that cataract you were talking about?

Another dead giveaway that you're the 1st year student I've been claiming you are. Also, I haven't had an attending in years there, SkyWalker - Freudian slip for ya, I suppose? Nice job proving my point. When you do graduate in about 3 years and you enter practice (probably at America's Best, VisionMart, or Cohen's), you'll understand why every OD reading this thread probably quietly laughed to themselves when reading about your "3 methods of examining the posterior pole on each patient," your "home made Turville septum for PRN use," and your total lack of understanding of how ridiculous your claims sounded. Kudos to you though, you lasted longer than netmag did with your fake screen name. When he made up a new identity it was glaringly obvious right from the first post. You lasted exactly three posts - well done.

It takes about 20 seconds to view the nerve and macula of both eyes using a direct scope, and adds maybe 30 seconds to slit lamp to do undilated 90D. It takes about 2 minutes to do undilated MIO views to the mid-periphery on a average-cooperativity patient. ITS NOT THAT HARD BRO. I believe there's an advantage to seeing things at all magnifications, and it adds nearly nothing to my exam time. Tell me, how long does it take for YOU TO DO YOUR POSTERIOR EXAMS? Leme guess, peek with a 90D that takes 10 minutes because you can't get a view on 10mm pupils?

Even more with the attempts to make your fantasy exam sequence into a reality? Face it, DangerMouse, you've already been called out by several ODs. It's obvious you blew it and now you're trying desperately to try to hold on to the dream. Next, you'll be telling us you do scleral depression and gonioscopy on everyone, because it only takes an eigth of a second per eye.

Again, let me break it down for you again: the manager at AB gets bonused on FDTs. They cost $15. FDTs are free if the patient dilates. It's A LOT EASIER for me to talk a patient into spending $15 on dilating than for the tech to talk someone into shelling out $15 for something that she can't explain that well. Hence, the manager LOVES THAT I DILATE. CAN THIS NOT BE MORE CLEAR TO YOU?

I want to understand you, but you keep hitting the caps key and it's distracting. Also, I have no idea why you're screaming in print - I'm sitting here having a nice cup of coffee and enjoying your desperate babbling. I'm actually in a bubble bath with some champaign and delicious fine chocolates. I have to be careful with the laptop, though. My wife is fanning me like I'm an Egyptian Pharoh and I have some quiet Vivaldi playing in the background...it's really quite a scene. How's the temperature in the basement? Do you have that musty, basement stink in your hair? Does your mom pipe some cable down there so you're not too lonely when you're taking study breaks in between readings of "Borish's Clinical Refraction?"

About home made exam room equipment: it's cheap, it works, and it works because I understand how it's built. I've used that eikonometer a few times. My homemade fundus camera is pretty ****ing awesome. Not ashamed of it, buddy.

Ok, McGyver, can you tell us what other home-made feats of engineering you've made up in your head? Have you ground your own lenses for a home-made phoropter? Perhaps you've fashioned an exam chair out of an old barber's chair? You story doesn't hold water, RoughRider - here's why: You're an optometry student (....and we all know which one....) and you clearly don't know that what you're posting is not plausible. Now, you've been caught and you're trying to hold on to it.

Signing off for the night. I feel that I've gotten significantly stupider since speaking with you.

Absolutely not possible. Also, "stupider," isn't a word.

 

[jellybean2020]

This thread certainly delivered the entertainment value. 10/10. 👍 Would read again.

 

[q1we3]

Even our professors call America's Best, America's Worse. Told us to stay away from this company, outright.

 

[Jibslider]

I actually snarfed my orange juice out my nose when I read that. Next, this guy is going to tell us how he created his own leaf room in an unused supply closet to help prescribe size lenses to his monocular aphakes...

Don't be ridiculous, he doesn't have time to run patients through his leaf room. He's too busy cranking out normative analysis on all his patients in between his MIO and 90D views.

I actually went to AB last year for an exam just to see what it was like as a patient. I declined FDT and dilation. Went in complaining of blurry vision and flashes of light, and my exam consisted of: pre-testing, a refraction with NO near point testing OR binocular testing, one pass of the slit lamp over each eye, and undilated 90. At the end of the exam the OD asked me if I had any questions and I asked him about the flashes of light I was having. He told me, "You should probably go see an ophthalmologist." I didn't get a referral, just a thanks and see you next year.

 

[CMM83]

One persons classic is anothers archaic.

Most of the stuff this person claims to do isn't used in real world optometry.

I'm surprised they still teach some of this stuff.

I was speaking in the more figurative use of the word classic, as in how characteristic of our colleagues of great integrity to engage in such a constructive argument. Although you do make a good point...I don't think I've ever used an MIO.

Any student who is reading this thread should sort through all the idioms and realize one important thing: persons that work at places like America's Best are not professionals. Professionals get to decide where they work, when they work, and for how much. If the optical manager doesn't think that sales are at a level of what he or she perceives as adequate, you'll likely be pulled into their office like a child for a little spanking and threats of termination. I remember one of my classmates worked at a place like this during a high point of the recession. The optical manager wanted to somehow accuse him of declining performance and apparently there is a clause in those ****ty contracts that any change in performance is just cause for drug testing. How humiliating. Real professionals don't have to urinate in cups.

 

[CL Doc]

I was speaking in the more figurative use of the word classic, as in how characteristic of our colleagues of great integrity to engage in such a constructive argument. Although you do make a good point...I don't think I've ever used an MIO.

Any student who is reading this thread should sort through all the idioms and realize one important thing: persons that work at places like America's Best are not professionals. Professionals get to decide where they work, when they work, and for how much. If the optical manager doesn't think that sales are at a level of what he or she perceives as adequate, you'll likely be pulled into their office like a child for a little spanking and threats of termination. I remember one of my classmates worked at a place like this during a high point of the recession. The optical manager wanted to somehow accuse him of declining performance and apparently there is a clause in those ****ty contracts that any change in performance is just cause for drug testing. How humiliating. Real professionals don't have to urinate in cups.

It amazes me that people will spend 8 years and lots of money for a "job" in a place like that.

 

[Jason K]

It amazes me that people will spend 8 years and lots of money for a "job" in a place like that.

....exactly why I'm on here. Most of the people looking at an optometry degree right now have no idea that this is what's ahead for a huge percentage of them. Exactly what percentage that is, I can't say, but one thing is certain - the proportion of newly minted ODs that is forced into commercial optometry is increasing with each class, and it's going to skyrocket after the new programs start blowing out grads. What's worse is that the percentage of "garbage optometry" positions, like those in AB, Cohen's, etc, is very likely to increase as more and more new grads are wandering around, desperate to find a place to land so they can start paying back their massive debt. Whenever there are desperate people, there are those who will take advantage of that desperation.

America's Best's MBAs are probably licking their chops right now, considering what is being done to the profession, and what the profession is doing to itself. They, and companies like them, will have free reign on new grads in the coming years. The sad part is, right now, they have to offer relatively high salaries in order to attract students. As the supply of new grads goes way up in the next 4 years or so, the demand for ODs will drop even further, and those 100K salaries will start to drop, little by little. Then we're really going to see some desperate new grads. If people think it's tough right now, just wait until all the new programs are on line - cranking out their product.

 

[NYCBlues]

For your budgetary concerns, here is my own experience.

After optometry school I owed about $50000. I attended one of the more expensive private schools in the country. This was the result of 1) no undergrad debt due to full scholarship 2) working 30hr/week during undergrad and investing all of the cash 3) large scholarship in optometry school paying about a third the tuition 4) working 40 hr week during optometry school 5) having kids early so I had food stamps and medicaid throughout school. The debt will be paid off by the end of this year. Disclaimer: I am an asian male under 30 years old. None of the scholarships were due to being black or mexican or female or gay or Navajo or whatever, all of them were fully based on academic merit.

My current rent in a nice one bedroom is about 800 bucks a month, water and internet and electric is less than $150 total, gas about $150 a month, food for the family about $700 (I buy good food, its important) so overall including random unexpected things about $2000 a month for living expenses for a family of 4. My wife doesn't work.

Advice for keeping your debt low: Basically, you need to work more, play less, and buy less stuff. Very simple. Work more, and you have more money to invest. Study harder and you'll get scholarships so school is way cheaper. Get on welfare because if you don't take that money, some obese diabetic dude who needs his fourth bypass surgery and sixth treatment of PRP is gonna use it up in about 2 months, or they'll spend it on one missile to blow up some $4 hut in afganistan. Buy less stuff since none of it will make you happy. For happiness, get a religion, play video games, spend time with your family, and eat sushi buffets (I'm not religious but through oberservation it seems to make a lot of people happy). None of that costs too much money. Buying a ton of shiny crap is ******ed. Stop overpaying for food at Whole Foods, shop at the mexican supermarket. Their food is cheaper and better quality.

As for investing, start a Roth IRA early, starting using the 401k after you graduate. If you wind up working in any self-employed capacity, start a solo 401k or SEP IRA and stick all your money into that.. the cap is much higher than with employed 401k. Use broad index funds preferably from vanguard or fidelity, go read the bogleheads.org forums. Do not play penny stocks, buy whole life insurance, day trade ETFs, or do any of that ******ed ****. Read some good investing books by academics such as Burton Malkiel and the stuff by Fama and French, and Bogle's books.

Do not do income based repayment under the assumption that you'l be waiting for the 25 year loan forgiveness or stretch your repayment period to 30 years unless you have some critical reason to do so. Do some math on excel and you'll see its pretty dumb. You should also realize that they tax all of the forgiven amount as income in the year that it happens, meaning a humongous tax bill somewhere down the line.

The key thing is probably to realize that most of the best things in life aside from sushi buffets are either inexpensive or free. At least don't blow your cash soon after graduating thinking your a "doctor". Hint: everyone's got a Phd or other variety of doctorate now. Nobody DOESNT have one. It's not special, and optometry school is very easy to get into so its not exacrly a mark of intelligence either. Even nurses are doctors now, and so is the chiropractor, the occupational therapist, the unemployed Ph.d in Women's Studies working at starbucks, and everyone else who goes through college and gets some grad school after realizing that undergrad is worthless. Don't think there's a vast gulf separating you from the receptionist.... if that receptionist was to take some easy pre-reqs at the community college, get about a 3.0+ gpa, will easily go to optometry school and be your equal... so its not that special. You should eat the same food she does, and stop bitching about earning only 100k or about having to see some more patients. She works just as hard as you and makes probably 25k a year. At least at my location, I KNOW the reception is working harder than me and so are all the opticians. It's not a bad deal....

You should open your own pp, instead of wasting your skills and life away working for AB. You won't make as much money the first few years of pp, but once it takes off you will earn so much more than what you are making now. You have manageable student loan debt and it seems you got it down with your budgeting for living expenses and other things so it seems you're in a good position to be starting a pp. Just a thought!

 

[NYCBlues]

Yollusyollus,

Since you are an employee of the corporation, you don't deal with insurance directly like independent ODs. Do you happen to know how insurance works at AB?

AB advertises "2 pairs for $69.95 with free eye exam" and say if the patient has vision insurance, does that mean AB would waive the copay and just bill the pt's vision insurance for the exam and materials? How does this work?

What about pts that you treat for corneal ulcers and other medical eye problems? How much does AB charge for these services? It's safe to assume that AB does not accept medical insurance since all they care about is optical sales and there's no point in them taking medical insurance.

I don't have a problem with ODs working at AB so I feel attacking yollusyollus b/c he works for AB is unnecessary (will be addressed on another post), but places that advertise "free eye exam" or have low ball exam fees are bad for the profession b/c it tells the public that "hey, if I could get a free exam at this place or pay $20 or so to get treated for a corneal ulcer, why do I have to pay more elsewhere?"

 

[Jason K]

Addressing anything to this "yollusyollus" character is really academic at this point, since he's almost certainly a 1st year OD student (who shall remain nameless) who concocted the screen name as a means of putting out ideas that he can't state from his own screen name. It's the netmag saga all over again.

 

[NYCBlues]

Don't be ridiculous, he doesn't have time to run patients through his leaf room. He's too busy cranking out normative analysis on all his patients in between his MIO and 90D views.

I actually went to AB last year for an exam just to see what it was like as a patient. I declined FDT and dilation. Went in complaining of blurry vision and flashes of light, and my exam consisted of: pre-testing, a refraction with NO near point testing OR binocular testing, one pass of the slit lamp over each eye, and undilated 90. At the end of the exam the OD asked me if I had any questions and I asked him about the flashes of light I was having. He told me, "You should probably go see an ophthalmologist." I didn't get a referral, just a thanks and see you next year.

You have a medical eye complaint and apparently you went into the wrong place for that. You sound like a typical pt who thinks that their vision insurance covers for all their eye care needs including medical eye problems. However, the OD who saw you should have explained to you something along these lines:
" Your vision insurance only covers for your routine exam (which I just did), which includes eyeglasses and contact lenses." You have a medical eye complaint and your vision insurance does not cover for that. If I evaluate you, then we would have to bill your medical insurance and they will cover for the visit. Unfortunately, I am not a provider of your medical insurance (assuming you have medical insurance) so you would have to go to another OD that accepts it if you don't want to pay out-of-pocket. Please make sure you go see another OD that takes your medical insurance to get yourself evaluated asap as this could potentially be a serious condition."

If you are employed by a chain or another OD, you are in the dark about how vision vs. medical insurance works. I used to work for an OD at a commercial establishment my first year out and we would do medical exams and bill their vision insurance. I didn't have to deal with insurance myself so I treat patients to the best of my ability. Needless to say I found out later I was giving my services away for free as that place only accept vision insurance. The OD I worked for has been out of school longer than me and he had no clue about the difference b/t vision vs. medical, either until just recently. I also don't like that fact that he would only collect the patients' copays if he's not a provider of their medical insurance. Imagine, he's treating dry eyes and corneal infiltrates/ulcers and only getting paid $10. $15. $20 from the copays. Why??? I don't understand why some ODs do this.

So from my experience, ODs that don't understand the difference b/t vision and medical insurance and charge accordingly for their services really give optometry a bad name. If they don't know this themselves, how do they expect the general public to know the difference?. That is why I continue to get patients that come in and expect me to treat their eye infection and get paid a whopping $40 from their vision insurance. No thanks! If i don't take their medical insurance, I give them a short explanation and refer them to another OD that does. Well, that's just me!

Then again, with so many eyecare offices left and right, the OD would rather collect that few bucks on their 1 or 2 patients for that day, which is still better than referring the pt to a colleague and sitting there getting paid nothing

So future and current OD students, the schools don't teach you about insurance. So make sure you learn it yourself and please do yourself a favor and know the difference b/t vision and medical insurance. That is what you should take away from this post.

 

[Tippytoe]

You have a medical eye complaint and apparently you went into the wrong place for that. You sound like a typical pt who thinks that their vision insurance covers for all their eye care needs including medical eye problems. vision insurance.

Yea, I'm not sure but it was my impression the poster of the above is an OD and I believe he was trying to show an example of the shoddy eyecare available at places like AB. Looks like he made up a medical eye complaint (flashes of light) which virtually automatically makes it mandatory to dilate so you can see any potential retinal tears/detachments. He wanted to show that the OD that works there was too stupid or too intimated by his bosses to dilate his eyes to look for a problem and instead told him to see an OMD.

The OD actually may be good but in that environment he'd fall 12 patients behind if he had dilated this one person. If it's all true, the OD should have his license taken from him.

 

[Jibslider]

You have a medical eye complaint and apparently you went into the wrong place for that. You sound like a typical pt who thinks that their vision insurance covers for all their eye care needs including medical eye problems. However, the OD who saw you should have explained to you something along these lines:
" Your vision insurance only covers for your routine exam (which I just did), which includes eyeglasses and contact lenses." You have a medical eye complaint and your vision insurance does not cover for that. If I evaluate you, then we would have to bill your medical insurance and they will cover for the visit. Unfortunately, I am not a provider of your medical insurance (assuming you have medical insurance) so you would have to go to another OD that accepts it if you don't want to pay out-of-pocket. Please make sure you go see another OD that takes your medical insurance to get yourself evaluated asap as this could potentially be a serious condition."...

I paid out of pocket. Vision vs medical insurance doesn't matter, with a complaint of flashes of light, I should have been dilated regardless whether I was vision, medical, or private pay.

 

[Jibslider]

yea, i'm not sure but it was my impression the poster of the above is an od and i believe he was trying to show an example of the shoddy eyecare available at places like ab. Looks like he made up a medical eye complaint (flashes of light) which virtually automatically makes it mandatory to dilate so you can see any potential retinal tears/detachments. He wanted to show that the od that works there was too stupid or too intimated by his bosses to dilate his eyes to look for a problem and instead told him to see an omd.

The od actually may be good but in that environment he'd fall 12 patients behind if he had dilated this one person. If it's all true, the od should have his license taken from him.

+1

 

[Meibomian SxN]

Yollusyollus,

Since you are an employee of the corporation, you don't deal with insurance directly like independent ODs. Do you happen to know how insurance works at AB?

They actually accept some insurances. But majority of patients are self pay.

AB advertises "2 pairs for $69.95 with free eye exam" and say if the patient has vision insurance, does that mean AB would waive the copay and just bill the pt's vision insurance for the exam and materials? How does this work?

No, the Px pays their copay and then pays $69.99; and then the Px submits for reimbursement.

What about pts that you treat for corneal ulcers and other medical eye problems? How much does AB charge for these services? It's safe to assume that AB does not accept medical insurance since all they care about is optical sales and there's no point in them taking medical insurance.

This is the problem. The undervalue the exam fee for medical visits. I believe they charge $35-50 for a red eye, abrasion or corneal FB. Ask any private oMD or OD what they charge for this service? AmBest completely devalues the profession and cheapens the eye exam. Its a shame many ODs don't see this.

That's one thing I respect about oMDs and MDs in general; they keep a certain professional look to their profession. How many oMDs or ENTs do you see working in commercial mills? Hardly any! 😡

I don't have a problem with ODs working at AB so I feel attacking yollusyollus b/c he works for AB is unnecessary (will be addressed on another post), but places that advertise "free eye exam" or have low ball exam fees are bad for the profession b/c it tells the public that "hey, if I could get a free exam at this place or pay $20 or so to get treated for a corneal ulcer, why do I have to pay more elsewhere?"

Its not the act about where he works, its the fact that he's too blind to understand what working at AmBest does to the profession. The CEO of AmBest makes $500k a year, that's x5 what 'yollusyollus' makes there! Working at this place cheapens your skills and leaves you WIDE open to law suits. And trust me, the docs DO get sued 'yollusyollus', so be VERY careful working there....

And those 20hr CEs 'yollusyollus' attends each year, well he won't be utilizing 95% of the info presented. Except for handing out samples of Systane or an occasional Patanol.

Working at AmBest strips you of your thinking capacity. Proof? Hey 'yollusyollus', when's the last time you followed a glaucoma Px? When's the last time you set a target IOP? Last time you interpreted a VF or a full threshold FDT? Last time you monitored someone's ocular hypertension? Last time you maxed someone out on topical meds? Last time you seen a catract, LASIK, keratoplasty, ptyregium or ANY surgery post-op/

Case closed. Respect yourself and move on from that mill....

 

[Jason K]

Hey 'yollusyollus', when's the last time you followed a glaucoma Px? When's the last time you set a target IOP? Last time you interpreted a VF or a full threshold FDT? Last time you monitored someone's ocular hypertension? Last time you maxed someone out on topical meds? Last time you seen a catract, LASIK, keratoplasty, ptyregium or ANY surgery post-op/

He won't be able to answer that question because he's still in school. If you read the post history on this thread, it's glaringly apparent that he's still a student. I am quite certain of which one it is (can you think of any know-it-all 1st years on this thread?) When I started hearing about home made septum's, 10 different posterior seg views, leaf rooms, and glaucoma being "easier than spectacle troubleshooting," I know what I was looking at was not being written by an OD, even on at America's Worst.

That being said, I don't hold any grudges against folks working there - most of them are certainly not there by choice. All of the people I know who have worked there took jobs there because it was all they could find. You're right, though - your brain will rot in a place like that, even faster than WM or Lenscrafters.

As time goes on, especially as we get closer to the point at which all the new programs are pumping out new grads, we're going to see more and more new ODs being forced into garbage bins like AB. There's just no way around it.

 

[q1we3]

"working 40 hr week during optometry school "

So you had a full time job during optometry school. How is that possible? When did you go to class and study?

 

[Jason K]

"working 40 hr week during optometry school "

So you had a full time job during optometry school. How is that possible? When did you go to class and study?

He's not working anywhere, not as an OD at least, and certainly not at America's Best. He's a FT optometry student, and probably works PT at an ophthalmology office on weekends. The posting style, the ridiculous claims, the general fingerprint on each post is impossible to miss. No one can really hide their online persona if they post long enough. If I made up another screen name and started posting on here, do you think you'd have any trouble telling it was me? Not likely! Someone can try to hide their identity, but it comes out eventually.

We've seen this "yollusyollus" many times before under another screen name that's much more familiar. He knows he's been caught, that's why he's gone silent ever since he was called out on it. He probably went to an AB recruitment dinner and thought up the idea of crafting up a fictitious AB-employed OD to get some points out there that contradict what pretty much any practicing OD will tell you. It smells like netmag and imemily all over again. Those two were quite skilled in the art of screen name development.

 

[clarkbar]

This sounds much better than the work conditions at a retail pharmacy. Same idea though, the company can't find a way to shove unlimited amount of patients in there. I almost was able to go to OD school, but had an essay issue. You guys really need to watch out for school inflation: when I matriculated pharmacy school, it was probably the better job field, now not so much (mostly related to school inflation, but also general work conditions.)

 

[q1we3]

I almost was able to go to OD school, but had an essay issue.

essay issue? what do you mean?

 

[Jason K]

This sounds much better than the work conditions at a retail pharmacy.

I think what's important to keep in mind here is the fact that what was described in this thread (by an OD imposter) is not an accurate representation of the America's Best environment. I don't claim to know dozens of AB docs, but the three or four that I know definitely do not have a lazy day at the office - ever. They're seeing 60+ patients per day by themselves with limited tech support. As others have pointed out, the odds of missing something and getting sued are much higher in this type of setting, even if some patients don't view you as a "real doctor."

I'd add that I'd never hold it against any OD working in a place like this. It is most definitely destructive to both optometry and ophthalmology, in terms of devaluing services rendered, but no one chooses to work an this environment. It's where you go when there's nowhere else to land. You've got to pay those loans back and if this is what presents itself, that's what has to be done.

 

[Tippytoe]

I'd add that I'd never hold it against any OD working in a place like this. It is most definitely destructive to both optometry and ophthalmology, in terms of devaluing services rendered, but no one chooses to work an this environment. It's where you go when there's nowhere else to land. You've got to pay those loans back and if this is what presents itself, that's what has to be done.

Agreed. Work at Americas Best, prostitute on the street corner or sell drugs in the 'hood. They are all about equally demeaning but they pay is alright, I hear.😛 Of course, the last two do have a better ROI.

 

[NYCBlues]

This is the problem. The undervalue the exam fee for medical visits. I believe they charge $35-50 for a red eye, abrasion or corneal FB. Ask any private oMD or OD what they charge for this service? AmBest completely devalues the profession and cheapens the eye exam. Its a shame many ODs don't see this.

I see this happening with independent ODs too, not just with AB. So believe it or not, this practice is pretty prevalent among ODs. No wonder many pts walk out my door or they look at me as if I am nuts when I quote them my fees for medical visits if they're self-pay. I refuse to charge low ball fees. I charge what I am worth and I know I provide thorough and good quality eyecare. Some patients realize this and they return. Those that come looking for a bargain can go elsewhere. But by charging higher fees, I actually work less hrs and net higher. I also get rid of many of those patients that tend to argue with me about their fees.🙂

 

[Tippytoe]

I see this happening with independent ODs too, not just with AB. So believe it or not, this practice is pretty prevalent among ODs.

This is absolutely true. Many, many ODs will charge less to remove a piece of metal from someones cornea than a plumber will charge to unclog their toilet. The profession is FULL of these insecure people, unfortunately.

 

[NYCBlues]

That being said, I don't hold any grudges against folks working there - most of them are certainly not there by choice. All of the people I know who have worked there took jobs there because it was all they could find.

Yep, when people are desperate to have a job to feed their family and that's all they could find so that's where they end up. At least it's a full-time job with benefits (i.e: health insurance for their kids). Unfortuntately, these jobs that do the most damage to the profession tend to offer better incentives.

With that said, I am thankful and feel fortunate that I am not in a desperate situation. As a lease holder next to a commercial establishment, I have resisted the pressures and demands of the optical to open more hours or lower my exam fees. I know that whatever happens, my hubby can back our family up financially until I could find someplace else where I'll be happy to work in. So my message to future ODs is: MARRY WELL🙂

I don't have the answers to the issues our profession is facing: oversupply, low insurance reimbursements, inability to get on medical panels, unregulated online sales of glasses/contacts, just to name a few. But i just feel that the least I could do for now is to make some time to post on here to share my experience and to tell future ODs what I know now so they know what to expect later on. I don't want them to end up in a desperate situation and just have to settle for anything. Remember, you are investing 4 yrs of your life after college and will be in debt in the range of 150K-200K, not to mention all the sacrifices you and your loved ones had to make for you to get your OD degree, so make sure you know what you are doing and what you are getting yourself into, that's all.

 

[OpticalBlackOut]

I'll ask our AB OD to be sure to come back and post next summer and we'll see if he still likes it..........if he's still working there. No matter what he says, 1000's of ODs can't be wrong. The consensus is: America's Best is the worst working enviroment for ODs.

It's been a year...any follow-up?

 

[mathcod]

Stumbled upon this thread and was entertained to say the least. I appreciate the objective comments shared by the AB doc.

 

[20DOC20]

For crying out loud, don't sell yourself short! You can make 100K starting out in a private practice and be much happier and saner!

I work as an independent contractor in a private practice and make $415 per day. That's gross. I am responsible for taxes. I work 4 days per wk and as the practice grows it'll be 5. Right now, per year at 4 days per week, I make approx 85K per year. On five days per week that would be 99K.

At most, I see 11 full exams per day. Maybe one or 2 cl checks. Sometimes one red eye check. It's an easy job. Plus, I get to monitor lots of glaucoma using lots of fun gadgets and that makes my day fun.

I have an option to purchase in a few years, also. I HATED being an optometrist when I worked commercial, but I LOVE this same profession privately.

Why on God's green earth would you want to work for America's Best????????? Are you insane? They have NO respect for you. The ONLY part of your expertise that matters to them is the refraction. They don't want you doing the rest of the exam because the refraction portion is the only portion that makes them money.

Plus, it looks BAD on a resume! If I were a private OD looking at a pile of resumes for an associate, I'd stick the sell-outs at the bottom of the pile and then make them beg for a job if they got an interview because it just tells me that you care more about yourself than your patients and why would I hire you. I'd have to be crazy, then.

Seriously, take the right road from the beginning of your career. It would be better to file bankruptcy to reduce your loan debt or get your payments delayed or extended rather than work at one of the most notoriously bad optometry sweatshops in existence.

Working at Walmart is much better on a resume, as is Costco.

I believe AB is owned by National Vision. They also own Vista Opticals. I worked at Vistas for many years and they suck. Treat OD's like garbage.

You are NOT garbage! Remember that.

 

[310]

For crying out loud, don't sell yourself short! You can make 100K starting out in a private practice and be much happier and saner!

I work as an independent contractor in a private practice and make $415 per day. That's gross. I am responsible for taxes. I work 4 days per wk and as the practice grows it'll be 5. Right now, per year at 4 days per week, I make approx 85K per year. On five days per week that would be 99K.

At most, I see 11 full exams per day. Maybe one or 2 cl checks. Sometimes one red eye check. It's an easy job. Plus, I get to monitor lots of glaucoma using lots of fun gadgets and that makes my day fun.

I have an option to purchase in a few years, also. I HATED being an optometrist when I worked commercial, but I LOVE this same profession privately.

Why on God's green earth would you want to work for America's Best????????? Are you insane? They have NO respect for you. The ONLY part of your expertise that matters to them is the refraction. They don't want you doing the rest of the exam because the refraction portion is the only portion that makes them money.

Plus, it looks BAD on a resume! If I were a private OD looking at a pile of resumes for an associate, I'd stick the sell-outs at the bottom of the pile and then make them beg for a job if they got an interview because it just tells me that you care more about yourself than your patients and why would I hire you. I'd have to be crazy, then.

Seriously, take the right road from the beginning of your career. It would be better to file bankruptcy to reduce your loan debt or get your payments delayed or extended rather than work at one of the most notoriously bad optometry sweatshops in existence.

Working at Walmart is much better on a resume, as is Costco.

I believe AB is owned by National Vision. They also own Vista Opticals. I worked at Vistas for many years and they suck. Treat OD's like garbage.

You are NOT garbage! Remember that.

What state are you in? Four days per week for 85k is nothing to write home about for an optometrist. Do you want a 5th day?

 

[20DOC20]

What state are you in? Four days per week for 85k is nothing to write home about for an optometrist. Do you want a 5th day?

This isn't gross income of the practice. This is my income. It's about average. And my point was that extrapolated to a five-day equivalent it would be the same income as working for AB.

This pay is also starting pay. I will make more as I buy into the practice. The OD owner told me that ... in his youth when he did lots of glaucoma ... that his NET (his pay) was 250K. You'll NEVER make that in commercial.

Leading to my third point ... why kill your career from the beginning working at AB when you can work as an Independent Contractor in a private practice for the same? Plus, it's easier work. Better for you. Better for the patient. Awesome for your resume.

I also have another question for the new graduates:

You sacrificed SO MUCH to become an optometrist. You worked hard. Got good grades. Passed the boards. And now you want to begin your career by taking a job that is essentially career suicide? What a waste!

The reason a lot of optometrists get stuck in commercial optometry is that they have one of these places listed somewhere on the CV (because gaps are questioned) and the only people who will hire you are other commercial places. I see OD's bounce from AB to Sears to Vista to Walmart and round and round again. You can get out of commercial optometry, but it's very hard because the private OD's who would otherwise hire you as an associate HATE YOUR GUTS.

The only way to go, if you're going to work commercial, is provide fill-in work for the OD's who lease the space. That way, the land lord can't tell you what to do ... AT ALL. You're working for the OD, not them.

I am an OD who got out of commercial optometry, but it took me going bankrupt to do it.

Oh, and sorry. I'm not revealing my location.

 

[20DOC20]

Oh, and believe me, when I say the private practice docs hate you, I mean that quite literally. And they don't forgive either. You're ostracized by your peers and treated by cr*p by your lessor. Patients look down upon you because you work in an optometry equivalent of McDonalds and no one takes you seriously. And as soon as you tell a patient they have a disease of ANY kind they leave your practice and see and MD the next time they're due because they see you as a loser doctor who couldn't possibly know anything but how to tie his own shoes. So, growing your practice was next to impossible. I actually did good work in commercial optometry at the behest of my lessor and no one appreciated the wisdom I had to offer as a professional: not the patients, nor my employers. I got very depressed and hated going to work. Then I started hating the patients. Then, I left one day.

That day was, in retrospect, one of the best days of my life.

This is wisdom coming from someone who's been a practicing optometrist for over 15 years.

 

[310]

Oh, and believe me, when I say the private practice docs hate you, I mean that quite literally. And they don't forgive either. You're ostracized by your peers and treated by cr*p by your lessor. Patients look down upon you because you work in an optometry equivalent of McDonalds and no one takes you seriously. And as soon as you tell a patient they have a disease of ANY kind they leave your practice and see and MD the next time they're due because they see you as a loser doctor who couldn't possibly know anything but how to tie his own shoes. So, growing your practice was next to impossible. I actually did good work in commercial optometry at the behest of my lessor and no one appreciated the wisdom I had to offer as a professional: not the patients, nor my employers. I got very depressed and hated going to work. Then I started hating the patients. Then, I left one day.

That day was, in retrospect, one of the best days of my life.

This is wisdom coming from someone who's been a practicing optometrist for over 15 years.

What you're posting here isn't wisdom. It's just your skewed opinion. I have a friend in South Carolina (middle of the pack optometry state) who makes more per day than you, working five days per week at America's Best. He see 20-30 patients on most days, but has little issue because he has lots of help. In March, he's moving to North Carolina (great optometry state) and working a private practice job $750 per day, according to him.

I hope you have something in writing regarding the buy in and contractual raises, because otherwise you might just be getting strung along for low wages by an OD who isn't actually gonna help you out. I'm still finishing my first year working in a city that isn't known for its kindness to optometry, and I make a lot more than you (less than $750 per day, though) doing high volume medical at a pp.

 

[20DOC20]

No one in my area of the country makes $750 per day. You'd be laughed out-of-town if you asked for that. Your per-diem rate will vary state-to-state. I don't live on the East Coast. Perhaps they make more there.

In this area of the country, the rate I'd asked for is fair. In fact, the IC rate here ranges from 300 to 450 per day. I plan to ask for more next time contract negotiations roll around.

But we're getting off-topic. The issue is America's Best. Worth it, or no?

I say no. It's a resume-killer.

America's Best is owned by National Vision, and that's owned by Warren Buffet. That man cares about no one but himself. He is a selfish old man who is so miserly that he won't even pay for his own granddaughter's college tuition.

I was unimpressed with National Vision. If you compare them to Costco or Wal-Mart, for example, you see a stark contrast. The Walmart and Costco stores are both clean and they supply - at least - the minimum required equipment such as a field machine, an NCT made after 1990 and an autorefractor.

The Vista Opticals I worked in were dirty, staffed by poorly-trained numb-skulls opticians. The doctor's room had equipment that was so bad that everything was held together with duct tape. The keratometer kept falling off the stand. One of the JCCs on the phoropter kept falling off. The NCT was made in the 1950's and when you tested the calibration, it NEVER said 50 (meaning calibration was off). No GAT was supplied. No field machine. No autorefractor. They supplied a very dirty ophthalmoscope and a dirty lensometer. The projector was mounted to the wall behind the chair and a fan in the wall in an adjacent grocery store made it bounce around. It doesn't surprise me that Warren Buffet owned that company.

Patients did complain about the bouncing eye chart and we passed the word on to the district managers to have someone come in an fix the bloody thing and nothing was ever done.

I've never been in an AB, but their reputation speaks for itself. They went into Chapter 13 for awhile, closed a lot of stores, and now they're making a comeback. Same thing happened with Vista Opticals - Chapter 13. Most of those stores closed.

In supporting AB, you're supporting Warren Buffet. I think he's rich enough.

I would say that AB has a worse reputation than EyeMart, and that's bad. Don't work for them.

Have some respect for yourself and your profession. If optometrists refused to work for AB or Vista, those stores would cease to exist. We actually have the power to bring them down. The prescriptions won't write themselves.

 

[Optometry Master]

. He see 20-30 patients on most days, but has little issue because he has lots of help. In March, he's moving to North Carolina (great optometry state) and working a private practice job $750 per day, according to him.
.

There is no OD office in NC paying $750/day. That's ridiculous. The going rate today, as it was in 1998, is $350-$400 per day.

 

[310]

There is no OD office in NC paying $750/day. That's ridiculous. The going rate today, as it was in 1998, is $350-$400 per day.

You're terribly mistaken. That's the rate in CA. NC is a hell of a lot better than that although I'm sure $750 is above the average rate. I've left $350-400 far, far in the dust although I do better than most IC's.

 

[310]

No one in my area of the country makes $750 per day. You'd be laughed out-of-town if you asked for that. Your per-diem rate will vary state-to-state. I don't live on the East Coast. Perhaps they make more there.

In this area of the country, the rate I'd asked for is fair. In fact, the IC rate here ranges from 300 to 450 per day. I plan to ask for more next time contract negotiations roll around.

But we're getting off-topic. The issue is America's Best. Worth it, or no?

I say no. It's a resume-killer.

America's Best is owned by National Vision, and that's owned by Warren Buffet. That man cares about no one but himself. He is a selfish old man who is so miserly that he won't even pay for his own granddaughter's college tuition.

I was unimpressed with National Vision. If you compare them to Costco or Wal-Mart, for example, you see a stark contrast. The Walmart and Costco stores are both clean and they supply - at least - the minimum required equipment such as a field machine, an NCT made after 1990 and an autorefractor.

The Vista Opticals I worked in were dirty, staffed by poorly-trained numb-skulls opticians. The doctor's room had equipment that was so bad that everything was held together with duct tape. The keratometer kept falling off the stand. One of the JCCs on the phoropter kept falling off. The NCT was made in the 1950's and when you tested the calibration, it NEVER said 50 (meaning calibration was off). No GAT was supplied. No field machine. No autorefractor. They supplied a very dirty ophthalmoscope and a dirty lensometer. The projector was mounted to the wall behind the chair and a fan in the wall in an adjacent grocery store made it bounce around. It doesn't surprise me that Warren Buffet owned that company.

Patients did complain about the bouncing eye chart and we passed the word on to the district managers to have someone come in an fix the bloody thing and nothing was ever done.

I've never been in an AB, but their reputation speaks for itself. They went into Chapter 13 for awhile, closed a lot of stores, and now they're making a comeback. Same thing happened with Vista Opticals - Chapter 13. Most of those stores closed.

In supporting AB, you're supporting Warren Buffet. I think he's rich enough.

I would say that AB has a worse reputation than EyeMart, and that's bad. Don't work for them.

Have some respect for yourself and your profession. If optometrists refused to work for AB or Vista, those stores would cease to exist. We actually have the power to bring them down. The prescriptions won't write themselves.

I agree that National Vision/America's Best is worse on a whole than Wallmart and Costco. But what you speak of is going to vary a lot from location to location. The one in SC that I mentioned is apparently nice. I filled in at one in Brooklyn a couple of times and that one was crappy, but they did have an FDT and decent autorefractor.

At the end of the day, a commercial chain store is not gonna offer the worst job out there. There will be enough uniformity in contracts and working conditions to keep it at least so-so. Now, in a two door state a place like Wallmart can be a great place to work independently and do as much medical billing as you want. The worst positions, in my opinion, are ones in dying independent opticals where OD's might work for comparatively poor wages and hope for a shaky buy-in proposition that never really materializes.

Edit: I brought up the NC money to show an example of someone leaving America's Best for a good position.