Amidst all the interview excitement, is there no light at the end of the tunnel?

[GiantSteps]

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080120/ap_on_re_us/part_time_profs;_ylt=AkwyCw7I8lLT4v6qPGuUEASs0NUE

Sorry to post such a pessemistic article when there is so much excitement going on these days on SDN Psychology. However, maybe this is an argument that even the hard core Ph.D. researchers need to make sure they acquire enough applied clinical skills in order to make a living if need be. Or maybe this just confirms the argument made by many SDNers already that too many schools are offering doctoral degrees above and beyond the economic need. I remember I posted a similar article a while back from the APA Graduate Student Magazine. I have to check out the blog mentioned in this article.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Interesting article...

I know I'm just one person but I've found that my best education has come from adjuncts. Tenured profs are usually too focused on their research to bother being good profs.

And I do know that there are tons of tenure-track psych positions available in Canada. So, come here people.

 

[clearcolor]

Reminded me of these from the NY Times last November:

Decline of the Tenure Track Raises Concerns:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/20/education/20adjunct.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

And letters to the editor in response:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/25/opinion/l25tenure.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

 

[biogirl215]

Interesting article...

I know I'm just one person but I've found that my best education has come from adjuncts. Tenured profs are usually too focused on their research to bother being good profs.

And I do know that there are tons of tenure-track psych positions available in Canada. So, come here people.

Ironically, one of the best "professors" I've had was actually a grad. student...

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Interesting article...

I know I'm just one person but I've found that my best education has come from adjuncts. Tenured profs are usually too focused on their research to bother being good profs.

This was my experience too.....though what I am most interested in is applied research in the clinical setting, so the people I've had the best experience with are those who do work that crosses over from academia to the clinical setting; I had a nice mix of tenured faculty and adjuncts who fall into this category.

-t

 

[Ollie123]

Its been a mixture for me. Some of the best profs I had were actually big researchers. Of course, it was at a school where you could "buy out" of classes (Many universities have this, but I'm not sure all do). It increases the number of adjuncts, but I think does help insure that the professors who DO teach are likely teaching classes they actually want to.

As for the rest of it - yup. And there are people who piss and moan about how we should be LOWERING the standards for grad school admission!

I will say though, I don't think its quite as dire as the article made it seem. At least among clinicals, a huge portion of people do not WANT a full-time academic career. A substantial number of people I've heard complaining about the difficulty of finding a tenure-track job seemed to accomplish relatively little as researchers (I mean, just check out the publication stats - a huge number of people with authorship on a total of 0 or 1 articles - if any of those people seriously thought they had a chance at academic jobs, they have no one to blame but themselves). Its competitive, no doubt, but the article seems to paint a "Its hopeless so don't bother trying" rather than a "You need to do x and y REALLY WELL in order to make it". You have to be smart about it, you have to carve out a niche, you more than likely will have to do a post-doc. In the past 10 years or so it seems like almost every graduate from my lab went on to a tenure-track faculty job. I'm proud of my lab, but I'm also not narcissistic enough to believe there is something innate to my lab here that can't be achieved elsewhere. We just have two faculty members who are well-connected, produce frequent, and good publications, and do what they can to help give their students every opportunity possible.

The article was right that we have a pretty poor system in place right now, and especially in fields like philosophy, there are relatively few jobs other than university professor that the PhD qualifies you for. I'm maintaining a bit more optimism though🙂 It might take some networking, a grant or two, and a dozen pubs, but I don't see a faculty job as unattainable regardless of what the article says.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The article was right that we have a pretty poor system in place right now, and especially in fields like philosophy, there are relatively few jobs other than university professor that the PhD qualifies you for. I'm maintaining a bit more optimism though🙂 It might take some networking, a grant or two, and a dozen pubs, but I don't see a faculty job as unattainable regardless of what the article says.

Agreed. We sometimes get caught up in our own bubble, but we have an infinitely more flexible degree and expertise that can generalize to many different areas of work. Imagine being an expert on Mongolian medieval fighting styles, there aren't exactly non-academic jobs beating down the door for that person's expertise. We in clinical psychology have flexibility, though it is very much up to each person to find their niche.

I went into this never wanting to be a tenure track professor, and I'm confident that I can do other things in addition to some adjunct teaching and have a nice career. I think if people can find their niche/specialization, they can do quite well and never hurt for work....whether it be in academia, private sector, etc.

-t

 

[Thrak]

Not that I can say this from direct firsthand experience, but I think Psych PhDs in general have a degree of career flexibility. The key is in the research training. Aside from doing research in non-academic settings, there's always marketing/marketing research.

 

[JockNerd]

I liked my researcher-profs. I always thought fulltime practice people who adjuncted had weird takes on research and its application to practice.

I will say though, I don't think its quite as dire as the article made it seem. At least among clinicals, a huge portion of people do not WANT a full-time academic career. A substantial number of people I've heard complaining about the difficulty of finding a tenure-track job seemed to accomplish relatively little as researchers (I mean, just check out the publication stats - a huge number of people with authorship on a total of 0 or 1 articles - if any of those people seriously thought they had a chance at academic jobs, they have no one to blame but themselves).

I agree. One doesn't just fall backwards into a faculty position. I know several "ahhhhhh.... mayyybe I'll do the prof thing, but I sure would like to have my own practice!" people. I'm building my plans now for a secure tenured faculty position in a few years.

Raynee, shhhhh about the faculty positions up in Canada. I want positions at Dal and McGill open when I get out.

 

[Ollie123]

I agree. One doesn't just fall backwards into a faculty position. I know several "ahhhhhh.... mayyybe I'll do the prof thing, but I sure would like to have my own practice!"

I've met these folks too. I imagine they're in for a pretty rude awakening a few years down the line. I'm always amazed when even at this level, people just kind of jump into things without considering the outlook down the line. How many people are out there who still think psychologists are uber-wealthy, or that as long as you have a PhD, you can just show up and people will throw various dream jobs at you? I think the problem is when people make "Getting a PhD" their goal. In my eyes, getting the PhD should just kind of be something that happens along the way - what matters is what you do while getting it, and how you use it afterwards.

Everyone is dead on about the degree being more flexible than most others though. Academia, private practice, hospitals, human resources (yes, even with a clinical degree - many large companies are starting to offer on-site health and well-being centers - its certainly a small market right now, but its there), marketing, testing agencies, biomedical sciences, information sciences, scientific communication and writing, biostats, the list of settings that psychologists can work in goes on and on.

We may be specializing more now than ever before, but we still have a much broader skillset than many other doctoral-level folks who come out with intense knowledge of a very narrow subject matter, and unless they can find a faculty job, will oftentimes only have writing skills to back them up. Not to pick on them or anything, since I think its great (and Mongolian midieval fighting styles sounds like a really fun subject😉 ), but I also think that since psychology kind of straddles science and any number of other areas, the degree necessitates the skills to be an asset in any one of those areas.