An Affirmative Action Thread

[R_C_Hutchinson]

This thread is not for discussing whether or not AA should be implemented.

What needs to take place before affirmative action can be repealed?

If the MCAT/GPA's of affirmative action races become equal to those of non AA races, then?

If there is a large surge of doctors in this generation who go into medicine in areas currently underserved, then?

I think we can call agree at very least that AA should not continue forever. What would you propose to the AAMC as guidelines for when they can begin accepting medical applicants without regard to race?

R_C_

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[MollyMalone]

This is unquestionably a Topics in Healthcare thread and as such I'm moving it there.

 

[mdterps83]

This thread is not for discussing whether or not AA should be implemented.

What needs to take place before affirmative action can be repealed?

If the MCAT/GPA's of affirmative action races become equal to those of non AA races, then?

If there is a large surge of doctors in this generation who go into medicine in areas currently underserved, then?

I think we can call agree at very least that AA should not continue forever. What would you propose to the AAMC as guidelines for when they can begin accepting medical applicants without regard to race?

R_C_

As far as repealing AA, that would be somewhat hard. AA has been condoned by the courts, like Bakke and the recent UMich one, but I think the legislature would have to pass laws, making public funding conditional for such schools (that participate in AA). So the answer to question is, probably when the state legislatures decide that they won't fund medical schools that participate in discrimination. And as far as I'm concerned schools that recieve no public monies are entitled to discriminate as they see fit, so I have no problem with those schoosl, I only object when tax dollars are spent on it.

 

[velo]

The stated goal of AA is to increase the numbers of underrepresented minorities in medicine so I would imagine it would no longer be necessary when those minorities are no longer underrepresented. Women don't get any perks in the admissions process do they?

 

[cbennett]

And as far as I'm concerned schools that recieve no public monies are entitled to discriminate as they see fit,.

Thats an outrage. Should i be allowed to open a store and only allow whites in. Or for that matter if i open a store and allow everyone in but only allow whites to drink from the water fountain inside the store because i own it. Of course not.

 

[twester]

Thats an outrage. Should i be allowed to open a store and only allow whites in. Or for that matter if i open a store and allow everyone in but only allow whites to drink from the water fountain inside the store because i own it. Of course not.

This tough topic. It's so loaded with emotions and history - both past and present.

Yes, you should be allowed to open a store and only allow <whoever> in. And no, if you allow <whoever> in, then there's a problem with denying them access to facilities like water and bathrooms.

Would I give a business that excludes <whoever> my money? Probably not, since I believe in an inclusive society.

Would I go to a college that received no public funds, but excluded minorities? Absolustely not, because an important part of my education has been contact with people from many different backgrounds.

I think affirmative action should stay in place until it's no longer needed to maintain a balance of diversity at educational institutions. I don't think our society is yet at the point where it will automatically achieve balance without regulation. It may take generations to achieve this and I hope we continue working towards it.

 

[R_C_Hutchinson]

Thats an outrage.

personal freedom and free market economics do scare a lot of folks.

Should i be allowed to open a store and only allow whites in.

yes, you should. you should also be left to suffer, gov't intervention free, the economic reprocussions of owning such a store.

Or for that matter if i open a store and allow everyone in but only allow whites to drink from the water fountain inside the store because i own it.

well, this isnt even a sentense, but you should be allowed to do this as well. see above.

Of course not.

you are wrong.

R_C_

 

[R_C_Hutchinson]

I think affirmative action should stay in place until it's no longer needed to maintain a balance of diversity at educational institutions. I don't think our society is yet at the point where it will automatically achieve balance without regulation. It may take generations to achieve this and I hope we continue working towards it.

twester-

do you define "a balance of diversity at educational institutions" as schools having classes which are statistically representative of the surrounding areas? or the US in general? what if all schools had equal mean statistics for all races in thier entering classes, is it ok then?

R_C_

 

[travis]

The stated goal of AA is to increase the numbers of underrepresented minorities in medicine so I would imagine it would no longer be necessary when those minorities are no longer underrepresented.

Well, here is the thing, what if, as in so many other documented cases, government action actually accomplishes the opposite of their intentions. What if, instead of increasing the number of minorities in medicine, AA decreased it? This sounds crazy to someone who has not been a careful student of the results of government.

Here was an interesting study done with black lawyers:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1342183/posts

Not saying this is true, or that the study is valid, but it's worth considering...

 

[velo]

Well, here is the thing, what if, as in so many other documented cases, government action actually accomplishes the opposite of their intentions. What if, instead of increasing the number of minorities in medicine, AA decreased it? This sounds crazy to someone who has not been a careful student of the results of government.

Here was an interesting study done with black lawyers:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1342183/posts

Not saying this is true, or that the study is valid, but it's worth considering...

That's some interesting wild speculation, but the number of minorities in medicine has been higher with AA in place than it was pre-AA and I haven't seen any evidence that what you say is true.

 

[twester]

twester-

do you define "a balance of diversity at educational institutions" as schools having classes which are statistically representative of the surrounding areas? or the US in general? what if all schools had equal mean statistics for all races in thier entering classes, is it ok then?

R_C_

You're asking if I think the numbers of a given ethnic group should be hard and fast? Not in a real world. It's not likely, or desirable, for schools to stand on street corners to recruit given numbers of different ethnic backgrounds. Schools admit people who apply and I believe matriculants should be chosen in such a way to get as close to community's ethnic make-up as possible.

Some school's make a pronounced effort to recruit different ethnic groups. CU's (University of Colorado) School of Pharmacy has a number of recruitment programs designed to reach minorities. As a result, they have a class with about 32% "non-white" students. Their next-door neighbor, the School of Medicine, does not have such programs and about 15% of it's student body is non-white. The ethnic makeup of both schools is representative of the ethnic makeup of the applicants.

The medical schools makeup is closely representative of Colorado's population, while the pharmacy school's makeup is more closely representative of Denver's population. It seems that both schools do a reasonably good job of being diverse. They acheive different makeups because their recruitment programs have different focuses.

http://www.cu.edu/diversity/docs/report2005/DivRpt-HSC_2005.pdf#search='diversity%20colorado%20pharmacy%20school'
http://factfinder.census.gov/servle..._name=null&reg=null:null&_keyword=&_industry=
http://factfinder.census.gov/servle..._name=null&reg=null:null&_keyword=&_industry=

 

[decisions2006]

This thread is not for discussing whether or not AA should be implemented.

What needs to take place before affirmative action can be repealed?

If the MCAT/GPA's of affirmative action races become equal to those of non AA races, then?

If there is a large surge of doctors in this generation who go into medicine in areas currently underserved, then?

I think we can call agree at very least that AA should not continue forever. What would you propose to the AAMC as guidelines for when they can begin accepting medical applicants without regard to race?

R_C_

It can be eliminated when the quality of education and other resources available to all from the pre-k level up is exactly the same, for starters.
Then maybe some psychological treatment to eliminate years of stuff (for lack of a better word)
I think the thing to remember is that AA is often for disadvantaged people meaning that the feeling is that if they had been provided all opportunities equal they'd be at exactly the same level(maybe true, maybe not).
Also for the most part they do not go out and find abolute idiots to fill the positions (hey you got all f's throughout college but you are still accepted). many of those people would fall into the average (yes sometimes lower) of the spectrum but many times non AA races are also accepted for "lower" performance because they had made up for it in some other way (life experience etc). No, none of these things should be used as excuses but I do feel they are valid considerations.
Yes, I look forward to a day when there is no need for AA for two reasons
As a minority who believes she has gotten where she has based on merit. I still feel that people will never truly believe that unless I walked around with a shirt on or something. You can't believe what psychological pressure it puts on the minorities who are somewhere based on merit.
Secondly, that would be the day I could tell my children that (some of) the final negative vestiges of america's sad history have been completely eliminated.
(sorry for the book )

 

[xylem29]

It can be eliminated when the quality of education and other resources available to all from the pre-k level up is exactly the same, for starters.
Then maybe some psychological treatment to eliminate years of stuff (for lack of a better word)
I think the thing to remember is that AA is often for disadvantaged people meaning that the feeling is that if they had been provided all opportunities equal they'd be at exactly the same level(maybe true, maybe not).
Also for the most part they do not go out and find abolute idiots to fill the positions (hey you got all f's throughout college but you are still accepted). many of those people would fall into the average (yes sometimes lower) of the spectrum but many times non AA races are also accepted for "lower" performance because they had made up for it in some other way (life experience etc). No, none of these things should be used as excuses but I do feel they are valid considerations.
Yes, I look forward to a day when there is no need for AA for two reasons
As a minority who believes she has gotten where she has based on merit. I still feel that people will never truly believe that unless I walked around with a shirt on or something. You can't believe what psychological pressure it puts on the minorities who are somewhere based on merit.
Secondly, that would be the day I could tell my children that (some of) the final negative vestiges of america's sad history have been completely eliminated.
(sorry for the book )

but america's sad history was due to innate imperfections of human beings...i can guaruntee that if everyone was the same "race" there will still be people who are disadvantaged, winners, and losers - there will be oppressed and oppressors. So no, not a in a long shot - even if we as a generation and even a society as a whole somehow magically does away with discrimination, discrimination is built into our very foundations of civilization and society...

 

[decisions2006]

but america's sad history was due to innate imperfections of human beings...i can guaruntee that if everyone was the same "race" there will still be people who are disadvantaged, winners, and losers - there will be oppressed and oppressors. So no, not a in a long shot - even if we as a generation and even a society as a whole somehow magically does away with discrimination, discrimination is built into our very foundations of civilization and society...

sort of my point exactly... but much more concise
even if AA was done away with on the basis of race, socio-economic background etc; other reasons would be found for well...AA

 

[rob14599]

I don't know if I agree with medical schools utilizing AA. Being a doctor means that it is YOUR JOB to make decisions that have the potential to harm or even kill another human being. People come to your when they are sick or injured and literally put their lives into your hands. Should medical schools be admitting people who "don't make the cut," regardless of what their color is?

Would you rather have a doctor who got into medical school with a 3.8 GPA and 34 MCAT and entirely on his or her merits, or a doctor who got admitted with a 3.3 GPA and 27 on the MCAT and was the right "color?"

Instead of lowering their standards for people of color, why not institute programs at the undergraduate level to attract, recruit, and help people of color matriculate into medical school? Isn't that preferable to AA? I know Drexel has a post-bacc intended for minorities to help them get into medical school, Wayne State has one for black students with a guaranteed linkage to it's medical school upon completion, I think Creighton has one too. My college also had minority pre-med programs and counselors/advisors on staff at both the college and the nearby medical school specifically for minority affairs.

 

[twester]

I know the OP didn't want a discussion of the meritoriousness of AA, but it's kind of unavoidable and I wanted to share something that I came across yesterday while researching for an essay.

It's summary of a study by a group at Duke called the Sullivan Commission. It explores the reasons why it's important that minorities be represented in training programs for health professions. It's a really interesting read, I think.

http://www.amsa.org/advocacy/Sullivan_Commission.pdf#search='sullivan%20commission%20pdf'

In response to the previous poster, I don't think there's any evidence that unqualified minorities are being admitted to medical programs. There's more to being a good professional than GPA and MCAT score and the Sullivan Commission report addresses this as well.

I beginning to believe that we will never be without AA in one form or another. Kinda sad really.

 

[Hard24Get]

I don't know if I agree with medical schools utilizing AA. Being a doctor means that it is YOUR JOB to make decisions that have the potential to harm or even kill another human being. People come to your when they are sick or injured and literally put their lives into your hands. Should medical schools be admitting people who "don't make the cut," regardless of what their color is?

Would you rather have a doctor who got into medical school with a 3.8 GPA and 34 MCAT and entirely on his or her merits, or a doctor who got admitted with a 3.3 GPA and 27 on the MCAT and was the right "color?"

Not wanting to debate AA here, but think about the connotations of what you are saying. Today's doctors had lower GPAs and MCATs than matriculants today (and so did those that matriculated in 1992; http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/archive/famg62002a.htm), are they less qualified? "Top ten" medical schools have average GPAs and MCATs higher than most, are their graduates more qualified? Some applicants have done a lot for the community and get into med school with lower GPA/MCAT than the person next to them. Does this mean they are less qualified and thus will kill someone in the future? Everyone must pass the same boards in order to practice medicine. By saying that AA lets in less qualified people that don't "make the cut", and thus will endanger the lives of others because their GPA/MCAT is a little lower, you are saying all of the things above.

I think you are putting too much stock in the GPAs and MCATs.

 

[jtboyd]

I don't know if I agree with medical schools utilizing AA. Being a doctor means that it is YOUR JOB to make decisions that have the potential to harm or even kill another human being. People come to your when they are sick or injured and literally put their lives into your hands. Should medical schools be admitting people who "don't make the cut," regardless of what their color is?

Would you rather have a doctor who got into medical school with a 3.8 GPA and 34 MCAT and entirely on his or her merits, or a doctor who got admitted with a 3.3 GPA and 27 on the MCAT and was the right "color?"

Instead of lowering their standards for people of color, why not institute programs at the undergraduate level to attract, recruit, and help people of color matriculate into medical school? Isn't that preferable to AA? I know Drexel has a post-bacc intended for minorities to help them get into medical school, Wayne State has one for black students with a guaranteed linkage to it's medical school upon completion, I think Creighton has one too. My college also had minority pre-med programs and counselors/advisors on staff at both the college and the nearby medical school specifically for minority affairs.

Well one thing is certain, no matter what condition some one is in when they matriculate, he/she will have to reach a certain level in order to practice. Be encouraged knowing that this level will not be lowered for anyone.

 

[ether^O^]

Well one thing is certain, no matter what condition some one is in when they matriculate, he/she will have to reach a certain level in order to practice. Be encouraged knowing that this level will not be lowered for anyone.

I want to see affirmative action for sports. I mean, not seeing Asians in the NBA, NFL, or MLB makes me feel bad. It makes me (and other people of my ethnicity) think that the only professions I can do well in are non-physical. That's why we try so hard to excel in acadamia (b/c we know we can't do well in physical sports). Also, MCAT scores test more for overall innate ability (i.e. in Math, Verbal Reasoning, etc.) than the Boards, because USMLE exams almost all have Biology topics (in which you can do well if you study for), whereas the MCAT has a Physical Science section and Verbal Reasoning section. That would explain why people with low MCATs at Morehouse and Howard pass (not do really well) the USMLEs. Being a doctor doesn't require one to be a genius, so almost anyone can be a doctor (as long as he or she tries hard). The MCAT and GPA tests for critical thinking ability and diligence. It shows how much you have sacrificed (i.e. time and social life) and the blood/tears you have put in to be a doctor. It tests whether you are worthy for the profession of medicine by the amount you have given up. Unfortunately, schools like Morehouse and Howard not only are discriminatory (if I applied there as an Asian, I'm sure as hell not gonna get in) and only allow blacks to go, but they are also the lowest of the low in med school rankings because they don't accept the most qualified applicants. Even if these med students become good doctors, it is unfair because they haven't sacrified as much as other applicants. Anyone can pull off a 3.3 GPA and 27 on the MCAT. If Howard and Morehouse lets these applicants in, that's ok. It's just extremely racist. If I become dean of a medical school, I'm going to base my school on Howard's principles (let as many blacks in as you can), except I'm going to do that for Asians.

 

[njbmd]

I want to see affirmative action for sports. I mean, not seeing Asians in the NBA, NFL, or MLB makes me feel bad. It makes me (and other people of my ethnicity) think that the only professions I can do well in are non-physical.

Hi there,

Asians in MLB in 2005

Shigetoshi Hasegawa Seattle Mariners RP Japanese 5'11" 175
Tadahito Iguchi Chicago White Sox 2B Japanese 5'10" 185
Kazuhisa Ishii New York Mets SP Japanese 6'0" 215
Hideki Matsui New York Yankees LF Japanese 6'2" 230
Kazuo Matsui New York Mets 2B Japanese 5'10" 183
Hideo Nomo Tampa Bay Devil Rays SP Japanese 6'2" 235
Tomokazu Ohka Washington Nationals SP Japanese 6'1" 200
Akinori Otsuka San Diego Padres RP Japanese 6'0" 198
Randolph, Stephen Chicago Cubs RP Born in Japan 6'3" 200
Dave Roberts Los Angeles Dodgers LF Japanese (1/2) 5'10" 180
Ichiro Suzuki Seattle Mariners RF Japanese 5'9" 172
So Taguchi St. Louis Cardinals LF Japanese 5'10" 163
Shingo Takatsu Chicago White Sox RP Japanese 6'0" 180
Keiichi Yabu Oakland Athletics SP Japanese 6'1" 201
Jung Keun Bong Cincinnati Reds SP Korean 6'3" 215
Hee Seop Choi Los Angeles Dodgers 1B Korean 6'5" 240
Byung-Hyun Kim Colorado Rockies RP Korean 5'9" 180
Dae-Sung Koo New York Mets RP Korean 6'1" 187
Chan Ho Park Texas Rangers SP Korean 6'2" 210
Chin-Feng Chen Los Angeles Dodgers CF Taiwanese 6'1" 189
Chin-hui Tsao Colorado Rockies RP Taiwanese 6'2" 190
Chien-Ming Wang New York Yankees SP Taiwanese 6'3" 200
Bruce Chen Baltimore Orioles SP Chinese 6'1" 210
Johnny Damon Boston Red Sox CF Thai (1/2) 6'2" 205
Danny Graves Cincinnati Reds RP Vietnamese (1/2) 6'0" 210
Jim Parque Arizona Diamondbacks SP Vietnamese (1/2) 5'11" 170

NBA Season 2004-2005
Name Height Weight Team Nationality
Yao Ming 7'6" 310 Houston Rockets China
Wang Zhizhi 7'1" 284 Miami Heat China
Mengke Bateer 6'11" 300 New York Knicks China
Ha Seung-Jin 7'3" 305 Portland Trailbalzers South Korea
Yuta Tabuse 5'9" 165 Phoenix Suns Japan

NFL Season 2005
Name Height Weight Team Position Nationality
Eugene Amano 6'3" 310 Tennessee Titans Offensive Lineman Filipino
Will Demps 6'0" 205 Baltimore Ravens Safety Korean (1/2)
Dat Nguyen 5'11" 238 Dallas Cowboys Linebacker Vietnamese
Hines Ward 6'0" 215 Pittsburgh Steelers Wide Receiver Korean (1/2)

I guess you don't see Asians in the NBA, NFL or MLB because you haven't looked. You poor thing; your are both blind and feeling badly. I feel sorry for you and your bad feelings. Poor little boo-boo! Him feel badly, All those nasty URMs taking your medical school slot!

njbmd

 

[ether^O^]

Hi there,

Asians in MLB in 2005

Shigetoshi Hasegawa Seattle Mariners RP Japanese 5'11" 175
Tadahito Iguchi Chicago White Sox 2B Japanese 5'10" 185
Kazuhisa Ishii New York Mets SP Japanese 6'0" 215
Hideki Matsui New York Yankees LF Japanese 6'2" 230
Kazuo Matsui New York Mets 2B Japanese 5'10" 183
Hideo Nomo Tampa Bay Devil Rays SP Japanese 6'2" 235
Tomokazu Ohka Washington Nationals SP Japanese 6'1" 200
Akinori Otsuka San Diego Padres RP Japanese 6'0" 198
Randolph, Stephen Chicago Cubs RP Born in Japan 6'3" 200
Dave Roberts Los Angeles Dodgers LF Japanese (1/2) 5'10" 180
Ichiro Suzuki Seattle Mariners RF Japanese 5'9" 172
So Taguchi St. Louis Cardinals LF Japanese 5'10" 163
Shingo Takatsu Chicago White Sox RP Japanese 6'0" 180
Keiichi Yabu Oakland Athletics SP Japanese 6'1" 201
Jung Keun Bong Cincinnati Reds SP Korean 6'3" 215
Hee Seop Choi Los Angeles Dodgers 1B Korean 6'5" 240
Byung-Hyun Kim Colorado Rockies RP Korean 5'9" 180
Dae-Sung Koo New York Mets RP Korean 6'1" 187
Chan Ho Park Texas Rangers SP Korean 6'2" 210
Chin-Feng Chen Los Angeles Dodgers CF Taiwanese 6'1" 189
Chin-hui Tsao Colorado Rockies RP Taiwanese 6'2" 190
Chien-Ming Wang New York Yankees SP Taiwanese 6'3" 200
Bruce Chen Baltimore Orioles SP Chinese 6'1" 210
Johnny Damon Boston Red Sox CF Thai (1/2) 6'2" 205
Danny Graves Cincinnati Reds RP Vietnamese (1/2) 6'0" 210
Jim Parque Arizona Diamondbacks SP Vietnamese (1/2) 5'11" 170

NBA Season 2004-2005
Name Height Weight Team Nationality
Yao Ming 7'6" 310 Houston Rockets China
Wang Zhizhi 7'1" 284 Miami Heat China
Mengke Bateer 6'11" 300 New York Knicks China
Ha Seung-Jin 7'3" 305 Portland Trailbalzers South Korea
Yuta Tabuse 5'9" 165 Phoenix Suns Japan

NFL Season 2005
Name Height Weight Team Position Nationality
Eugene Amano 6'3" 310 Tennessee Titans Offensive Lineman Filipino
Will Demps 6'0" 205 Baltimore Ravens Safety Korean (1/2)
Dat Nguyen 5'11" 238 Dallas Cowboys Linebacker Vietnamese
Hines Ward 6'0" 215 Pittsburgh Steelers Wide Receiver Korean (1/2)

I guess you don't see Asians in the NBA, NFL or MLB because you haven't looked. You poor thing; your are both blind and feeling badly. I feel sorry for you and your bad feelings. Poor little boo-boo! Him feel badly, All those nasty URMs taking your medical school slot!

njbmd

This is hilarious. You talk about the 2004-2005 season for the NBA, but Yuta Tabuse didn't even last a month in the NBA. Menke, Wang also left after terrible seasons. The only players in the NBA are Yao Ming (a 7'6" giant) and Ha Seung-Jin (a 7'4" giant). In the NFL, Will Demps and Hines Ward are both mixed (Ward is 1/2 black). Baseball is a sport in which Asians CAN excel because it relies more on finesse and skill rather than power and brute strength. But again, URMs make up 24% of the country, but don't even make up 12% of the doctors here right? And you bitch & moan to no end about that. Well Asian AMERICANS make up 4% of the country, but not even 1% of sports. So...is that fair? NO. We need AA for sports. And BTW, almost all the Asian players you listed for MLB are foreign-born. So...yeah, its still BS.

 

[bbas]

This is hilarious. You talk about the 2004-2005 season for the NBA, but Yuta Tabuse didn't even last a month in the NBA. Menke, Wang also left after terrible seasons. The only players in the NBA are Yao Ming (a 7'6" giant) and Ha Seung-Jin (a 7'4" giant). In the NFL, Will Demps and Hines Ward are both mixed (Ward is 1/2 black). Baseball is a sport in which Asians CAN excel because it relies more on finesse and skill rather than power and brute strength. But again, URMs make up 24% of the country, but don't even make up 12% of the doctors here right? And you bitch & moan to no end about that. Well Asian AMERICANS make up 4% of the country, but not even 1% of sports. So...is that fair? NO. We need AA for sports. And BTW, almost all the Asian players you listed for MLB are foreign-born. So...yeah, its still BS.

How about 5'11-6'0 white guys in the NBA. As I said in another thread, they are the true URM's of the NBA.

 

[jtboyd]

Ether, are you really that dense? Ether there is really no need for me to continue this with you. Obviously you don't even know the purpose of AA in medicine if you are willing say something as ignorant as "why not AA in sports". No, let me play along. IF AA IN SPORTS DECREASED THE DISPARITIES IN HEALTH CARE, HEY WHY NOT.

 

[OzDDS]

This country is a melting pot! What about the people of mixed backgrounds

(which actually makes up most of the United states)

What if someone is half african-american or 1/4 african-american or 1/4 native-american, or 1/8 hispanic, etc etc etc.. you get the picture..

What classification do you put yourself under?
Are you still eligible to be considered a "minority"?

What if you are half black but look mostly white? What if you are 3/4 white but look very hispanic?

What is "White" anyways? Is there a difference between being a 10th generation English-American and being a 1st or 2nd generation Russian-American or being a Serbian-American?



If Jay Z applied to Med school would he be considered a minority? (He's half asian btw).


Just some thoughts...


Personally.. I think if AA is to be in place at all.. it should only be there to aid people of poor socioeccomic backgrounds (regardless of color). The rich black son of a doctor and a lawyer doesn't really need affirmative action just as the rich white son of the same doesn't. What if you are asian or white and grow up in the ghetto and go to the same inner city schools or grow up in rural appliachia. They are the ones who are really screwed, because they have to work just as hard as any "minority" and they get no help whatsoever.

 

[hucm2009]

I want to see affirmative action for sports. I mean, not seeing Asians in the NBA, NFL, or MLB makes me feel bad. It makes me (and other people of my ethnicity) think that the only professions I can do well in are non-physical. That's why we try so hard to excel in acadamia (b/c we know we can't do well in physical sports). Also, MCAT scores test more for overall innate ability (i.e. in Math, Verbal Reasoning, etc.) than the Boards, because USMLE exams almost all have Biology topics (in which you can do well if you study for), whereas the MCAT has a Physical Science section and Verbal Reasoning section. That would explain why people with low MCATs at Morehouse and Howard pass (not do really well) the USMLEs. Being a doctor doesn't require one to be a genius, so almost anyone can be a doctor (as long as he or she tries hard). The MCAT and GPA tests for critical thinking ability and diligence. It shows how much you have sacrificed (i.e. time and social life) and the blood/tears you have put in to be a doctor. It tests whether you are worthy for the profession of medicine by the amount you have given up. Unfortunately, schools like Morehouse and Howard not only are discriminatory (if I applied there as an Asian, I'm sure as hell not gonna get in) and only allow blacks to go, but they are also the lowest of the low in med school rankings because they don't accept the most qualified applicants. Even if these med students become good doctors, it is unfair because they haven't sacrified as much as other applicants. Anyone can pull off a 3.3 GPA and 27 on the MCAT. If Howard and Morehouse lets these applicants in, that's ok. It's just extremely racist. If I become dean of a medical school, I'm going to base my school on Howard's principles (let as many blacks in as you can), except I'm going to do that for Asians.

Weird, because last time i checked I go to Howard Medical School, and we have at least 10 asians in our class, which is probably more asians than at the typical medical school. At least know what your are talking about before you make up your own random facts.

 

[BlazerMed]

Deciding when AA should end depends on the your view of its purpose.

Do you want more URMs to go to underserved communities and improve healthcare access? Probably going to take longer, as the current practice of AA doesn't account for socioeconomic status, only race. The rich URM from the suburbs that might benefit from AA probably won't accomplish this goal.

If your goal is to simply develop an overall physician workforce that mirrors the general population, then it might happen earlier than the scenario above.

Regardless, there's it's not possible to set an actual timeline, and I think it's a policy instituted by individual schools, so it will probably be something that is eliminated bit by bit and not on a large scale.

 

[njbmd]

Hi there,
Medical school is not a reward for having the highest GPA or MCAT score. If were only that easy to pick a class for medical school. We could take the top GPA and MCAT scores and that would be it. On your AMCAS application, you could just list your GPA and MCAT score, we could add them up, take the top numbers and that would be the end of the process. We would not need to spend time interviewing folks or even reading personal statements. What a novel idea! Would save loads of my time and yours!

Unfortunatly subjective factors matter in medical school admissions and in some cases and for many medical schools, they outweigh GPA and MCAT scores. No one has been able to attach a number to these subjective factors so then next best thing is to whine about the items that can be quantified and how one group gets "stuck" by another group and how unfair the whole system is.

Until a different system is used to choose a medical school class, these AA threads and arguements are going to go on. Nothing new here folks!


njbmd

 

[OzDDS]

Bump

Any thoughts on above?

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

Bump

Any thoughts on above?

Haahha first of all Jay-z is not half Filipino (proof?) and, if he was he would be considered a URM… Pretty much people choose their race based on culture and phenotype… Thus, if someone is capable of representing a community then, it should not matter if they are half this or a forth that as long as people in the community can relate to them…

 

[Thundrstorm]

What about the people of mixed backgrounds

(which actually makes up most of the United states)

What if someone is half african-american or 1/4 african-american or 1/4 native-american, or 1/8 hispanic, etc etc etc.. you get the picture..

What classification do you put yourself under?
Are you still eligible to be considered a "minority"?

What if you are half black but look mostly white? What if you are 3/4 white but look very hispanic?

I think the answer to this question is simpler than you would think. As a person of mixed heritage, I can't see how people could get to the age of 21 or above, and not have decided how they classify themselves racially. It's really not about whether other people think you look white, or how they would classify you, though that can certainly play a part in how you perceive yourself. In my particular case, I am (by the simplest definition) half black and half white. Depending on my mood and level of patience with the person asking, I describe myself as multiracial, biracial, mixed, gray, black and white, or just brown. Sometimes I give the whole recipe that makes up thundrstorm, down to the percentage of each ethnicity. Some people consider me black b/c they're still hung up on that whole-one drop rule thing. Often, random people will come up to me and speak to me in Spanish. People have assumed that I'm Puerto Rican, Saudi Arabian, Cape Verdean, and Indian. If I identified myself according to others, well, I suppose my race would change according to the person and perhaps whether I'd just returned from a beach vacation or not. I embrace both sides of my race equally, despite how it makes others feel or whether they happen to agree with me. And, yes, I do consider myself a minority. Why? Because in any given room at any given time, hardly anyone looks like me or shares my racial makeup. Because in a predominantly white nation, I am very clearly other. Because my otherness has been pointed out to me time and time again. Because I count myself as one of the offended when someone makes a ni**er joke. Because I have experienced the hatred, ignorance, prejudice, and ridicule that is a part of the minority experience in America. I didn't suddenly go through an existential crisis when the time came to fill out AMCAS. I checked the appropriate boxes that I have to check on every other form that wants to label me, and I concentrated on the truly mind-boggling stuff, like how to write a ps that didn't suck.

 

[jtboyd]

wow, nicely done. I wish someone can put this as a sticky for others trying to figure out what they are.

 

[OzDDS]

Haahha first of all Jay-z is not half Filipino (proof?) and, if he was he would be considered a URM… Pretty much people choose their race based on culture and phenotype… Thus, if someone is capable of representing a community then, it should not matter if they are half this or a forth that as long as people in the community can relate to them…

Ok.. well I couldn't find Jay Z. But Here are a list of many other's that are only part black celebraties.

So by that rational.. if Eminem grew up in the black community and they can relate to him.. the he should be able to tick the african american box when exam time comes around?

This is amusing example of the very thing were talking about.

 

[OzDDS]

I think the answer to this question is simpler than you would think. As a person of mixed heritage, I can't see how people could get to the age of 21 or above, and not have decided how they classify themselves racially. It's really not about whether other people think you look white, or how they would classify you, though that can certainly play a part in how you perceive yourself. In my particular case, I am (by the simplest definition) half black and half white. Depending on my mood and level of patience with the person asking, I describe myself as multiracial, biracial, mixed, gray, black and white, or just brown. Sometimes I give the whole recipe that makes up thundrstorm, down to the percentage of each ethnicity. Some people consider me black b/c they're still hung up on that whole-one drop rule thing. Often, random people will come up to me and speak to me in Spanish. People have assumed that I'm Puerto Rican, Saudi Arabian, Cape Verdean, and Indian. If I identified myself according to others, well, I suppose my race would change according to the person and perhaps whether I'd just returned from a beach vacation or not. I embrace both sides of my race equally, despite how it makes others feel or whether they happen to agree with me. And, yes, I do consider myself a minority. Why? Because in any given room at any given time, hardly anyone looks like me or shares my racial makeup. Because in a predominantly white nation, I am very clearly other. Because my otherness has been pointed out to me time and time again. Because I count myself as one of the offended when someone makes a ni**er joke. Because I have experienced the hatred, ignorance, prejudice, and ridicule that is a part of the minority experience in America. I didn't suddenly go through an existential crisis when the time came to fill out AMCAS. I checked the appropriate boxes that I have to check on every other form that wants to label me, and I concentrated on the truly mind-boggling stuff, like how to write a ps that didn't suck.

And not many other people would look quite like you because you are very unique person coming from such a diverse background.

Same could be said of someone who is part chinese, part english, and part brazillian.

or.

part russian, part viet, and part mexican.

you get my point.



Also, hatred and ignorance does not only apply to one race you know. Just because the majority of the nation may be one shade or this shade. doesn’t mean that that's what you grew up with or around.

If your growing up in a small town or city that is mostly one color and you are another. anyone could experience this.

If you are a white kid growing up in a mostly black area.. you too could experience racist jokes, hatred, ignorance, prejudice, and ridicule.
Why should that be any different?

If you are an asian kid growing up in a mostly white area.. you could ALSO have the SAME experience.

Why then.. should AA only apply to some. When many more have experienced the same bad things your speaking of and they won't be eligible for assistance?

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

And not many other people would look quite like you because you are very unique person coming from such a diverse background.

Same could be said of someone who is part chinese, part english, and part brazillian.

or.

part russian, part viet, and part mexican.

you get my point.



Also, hatred and ignorance does not only apply to one race you know. Just because the majority of the nation may be one shade or this shade. doesn’t mean that that's what you grew up with or around.

If your growing up in a small town or city that is mostly one color and you are another. anyone could experience this.

If you are a white kid growing up in a mostly black area.. you too could experience racist jokes, hatred, ignorance, prejudice, and ridicule.
Why should that be any different?

If you are an asian kid growing up in a mostly white area.. you could ALSO have the SAME experience.

Why then.. should AA only apply to some. When many more have experienced the same bad things your speaking of and they won't be eligible for assistance?

what is your point Sister Mary Clarence??

 

[R_C_Hutchinson]

I don't know if I agree with medical schools utilizing AA. Being a doctor means that it is YOUR JOB to make decisions that have the potential to harm or even kill another human being. People come to your when they are sick or injured and literally put their lives into your hands. Should medical schools be admitting people who "don't make the cut," regardless of what their color is?

Would you rather have a doctor who got into medical school with a 3.8 GPA and 34 MCAT and entirely on his or her merits, or a doctor who got admitted with a 3.3 GPA and 27 on the MCAT and was the right "color?"

Instead of lowering their standards for people of color, why not institute programs at the undergraduate level to attract, recruit, and help people of color matriculate into medical school? Isn't that preferable to AA? I know Drexel has a post-bacc intended for minorities to help them get into medical school, Wayne State has one for black students with a guaranteed linkage to it's medical school upon completion, I think Creighton has one too. My college also had minority pre-med programs and counselors/advisors on staff at both the college and the nearby medical school specifically for minority affairs.

hi rob,

please re-read the original post.

R_C_

 

[R_C_Hutchinson]

I go to Howard Medical School, and we have at least 10 asians in our class, which is probably more asians than at the typical medical school.

hucm,



R_C_

 

[mshollywoodmd]

The stated goal of AA is to increase the numbers of underrepresented minorities in medicine so I would imagine it would no longer be necessary when those minorities are no longer underrepresented. Women don't get any perks in the admissions process do they?

“Affirmative action” means positive steps taken to increase the representation of women and minorities in areas of employment, education, and business from which they have been historically excluded.

So to answer your question AA is also beneficial to women.

I'm not sure why people keep misrepresenting AA as tool for disadvantaged minorities only ,it is a tool for minorities period including women. But somehow it has been misconstrued to mean that only blacks with 15 jobs before they were 10, crack mothers, and alcoholic fathers should have to utilize it.

AA is not put in place so that medical schools, employers, law schools, etc allow any black, hispanic, or native american applicant with a pulse into their institution. It is put in place in order to allow qualified minorities the opportunity to enter fields in which they have little representation. Qualified meaning these people have the intellect and know how to succeed in the position in which they were given and was not just given the position because of there ethnicity, that would be called a quota which is deemed discriminatory and those are unconstitutional.

Why are people constantly thinking that minorities are taking their place in medical school? Its almost statistically improbable because they are underrepresented...that means there is not a lot of them, that means that if you didn't get in medical school someone overrepresented or even more represented than the underrepresented had a greater probability of taking your spot and it doesn't necessarily mean their numbers are better ,they were just the applicant of choice...but then again its not your spot because if it was you would be there.

But just in case you want an EC that you can call a sociology project, why don't you place 100 marbles in a bag, 50 red, 24 blue, 20 yellow, 3 green, 2 blk, and 1 purple. Draw out one marble at a time until you get a set of 6 marbles one of each color, replacing each set of marbles back, until 6 consecutive pulls gives you a marble of each color ....Now the green, blk, and purple marbles are underrepresented minorities. How many times did you have to pull before you got a green, blk and purple marble along with a red, yellow, and blue one?....thats underrepresentation.

So when will AA no longer be needed, when on the first 6 consecutive pulls you have a equal probablity of getting all six colors because they are evenly distributed....project analogy onto the real world

 

[Shredder]

I'm not sure why people keep misrepresenting AA as tool for disadvantaged minorities only ,it is a tool for minorities period

Depends on how minority is defined. So it's not really for minorities, period. Also admissions is a zero sum game. With a fixed number of seats available, for every seat given one is taken away. This necessarily means that AA or any preferential policy results in displacement of those groups not preferred, regardless of on what scale it occurs.

You can't have equal probability in the bag of marbles because it wouldn't reflect the demographics of the country.

 

[OzDDS]

Depends on how minority is defined. So it's not really for minorities, period. Also admissions is a zero sum game. With a fixed number of seats available, for every seat given one is taken away. This necessarily means that AA or any preferential policy results in displacement of those groups not preferred, regardless of on what scale it occurs.

You can't have equal probability in the bag of marbles because it wouldn't reflect the demographics of the country.

 

[OzDDS]

what is your point Sister Mary Clarence??

well.. its true

 

[EMDream]

The stated goal of AA is to increase the numbers of underrepresented minorities in medicine so I would imagine it would no longer be necessary when those minorities are no longer underrepresented. Women don't get any perks in the admissions process do they?

How would that solve the problem, the REASON they are underrepresented is because they have INEQUAL oppurtunity to receive the same education as whites. So wouldn't there just be another downslide when AA is removed? AA will be removed when there are no more minorities living in poorly funded inner cities. AKA never.

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

well.. its true

The reason why I have been somewhat mocking you is because I have heard and read your line of thinking many times. It is an ideology usually held by conservatives who hope to say that because race has become more ambiguous AA is not needed. They hope to promote the idea that we are moving towards a “racial paradise”. I find this to be an insidious line of thinking because it was the same reasoning used by many in Brazil which promoted such ideas but, had a society that was heavily divided by race… Brazil’s population is about 54 percent white 38 percent mixed race(black and white) and about 8 percent black yet, the black and mixed race people were BOTH underrepresented 3 fold in all the important fields( university, politics etc)… Thus, the idea that as people become more mixed race societal divisions disappears is false and Brazil proves that clearly. Namely, as long as there are people that have traditionally been on top and others that have traditionally been on the bottom race will matter…

 

[OzDDS]

The reason why I have been somewhat mocking you is because I have heard and read your line of thinking many times. It is an ideology usually held by conservatives who hope to say that because race has become more ambiguous AA is not needed. They hope to promote the idea that we are moving towards a “racial paradise”. I find this to be an insidious line of thinking because it was the same reasoning used by many in Brazil which promoted such ideas but, had a society that was heavily divided by race… Brazil’s population is about 54 percent white 38 percent mixed race(black and white) and about 8 percent black yet, the black and mixed race people were BOTH underrepresented 3 fold in all the important fields( university, politics etc)… Thus, the idea that as people become more mixed race societal divisions disappears is false and Brazil proves that clearly. Namely, as long as there are people that have traditionally been on top and others that have traditionally been on the bottom race will matter…

Yes, But in the united states.. where WE live. AA doesn't help just poor needy people. It helps a lot of people who don't need it.. all based on color of their skin. Not their socioecconomic background, not where they grew up.

I agree that there should be programs in place to help people. But they should be based on factors that really qualify someone assistance.. based on NEED. Not ONLY the color of your skin.

 

[ether^O^]

The reason why I have been somewhat mocking you is because I have heard and read your line of thinking many times. It is an ideology usually held by conservatives who hope to say that because race has become more ambiguous AA is not needed. They hope to promote the idea that we are moving towards a “racial paradise”. I find this to be an insidious line of thinking because it was the same reasoning used by many in Brazil which promoted such ideas but, had a society that was heavily divided by race… Brazil’s population is about 54 percent white 38 percent mixed race(black and white) and about 8 percent black yet, the black and mixed race people were BOTH underrepresented 3 fold in all the important fields( university, politics etc)… Thus, the idea that as people become more mixed race societal divisions disappears is false and Brazil proves that clearly. Namely, as long as there are people that have traditionally been on top and others that have traditionally been on the bottom race will matter…

Just like sports, music, movies, and other forms of media for blacks?

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

Yes, But in the united states.. where WE live. AA doesn't help just poor needy people. It helps a lot of people who don't need it.. all based on color of their skin. Not their socioecconomic background, not where they grew up.

I agree that there should be programs in place to help people. But they should be based on factors that really qualify someone assistance.. based on NEED. Not ONLY the color of your skin.

How would that help to erase the racial imbalance?? Are there not more "white" people than "black" people??? Thus, would that not help to increase the racial imbalance??

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

Just like sports, music, movies, and other forms of media for blacks?

You again you need to get some mental help b/c you are way too obsessed with black people...

 

[mshollywoodmd]

Depends on how minority is defined. So it's not really for minorities, period. Also admissions is a zero sum game. With a fixed number of seats available, for every seat given one is taken away. This necessarily means that AA or any preferential policy results in displacement of those groups not preferred, regardless of on what scale it occurs.

You can't have equal probability in the bag of marbles because it wouldn't reflect the demographics of the country.

Definition of minority:
the smaller in number of two groups constituting a whole; specifically : a group having less than the number of votes necessary for control
a part of a population differing from others in some characteristics and often subjected to differential treatment

Yes admissions is a zero sums game but the point I was trying to make is that
for a seat that is taken away there is a greater probability that an overrepresented matriculant took the seat opposed to an underrepresented one, so why continually blame the one or two underrepresented minorities in a class? Also there are some schools who have had no underrepresented minorites in their incoming class...Who do you blame then?

Why do you insipidly say preferred group vs non preferred group, I consider that ridiculous. Minorities aren't "preferred" over another group if they were "preferred" they wouldn't be underrepresented. AA doesn't prefer to put minorities in specific areas opposed to putting other groups in that same area. It wasn't established to take away opportunities from the poor overrepresented people. It was established so that those who have historically been denied entry into some fields can have a chance to enter it if they are qualified to do so.

Because I would like to please you let me re-word my previous post, when a bag of marbles can be used as a sample that represents the demographics of the country and you can continually withdraw an even distribution of marbles that reflects society with a higher number of successes than failures and it projects into the real world as having the same results ,then maybe AA can be put to rest.

 

[Thundrstorm]

And not many other people would look quite like you because you are very unique person coming from such a diverse background.

Same could be said of someone who is part chinese, part english, and part brazillian.

or.

part russian, part viet, and part mexican.

you get my point.

Umm, I'm not sure that I actually do get your point, but perhaps I should clarify mine. Let me put it plainly: whether I am considered black or biracial (by other people, by the government, by med schools, whatever), I am part of a racial minority in the U.S. and in every educational setting I've ever been in. I am a minority not because of my particular shade of brown skin or the crazy hair that seems to be my own private hell (haha) or my overall appearance of racial ambiguity... but rather because I am included (by virute of my skin color or the box I check or the census classifications) with a group of people who are in the minority in our society. I am not saying that I am a minority because I have a diverse background, but rather because I am part black and that blackness will always define me to some extent. The unique experience of being a multiracial individual has quirks all its own, but that's not really what I was referring to.

Also, hatred and ignorance does not only apply to one race you know. Just because the majority of the nation may be one shade or this shade. doesn’t mean that that's what you grew up with or around.

If your growing up in a small town or city that is mostly one color and you are another. anyone could experience this.

If you are a white kid growing up in a mostly black area.. you too could experience racist jokes, hatred, ignorance, prejudice, and ridicule.
Why should that be any different?

If you are an asian kid growing up in a mostly white area.. you could ALSO have the SAME experience.

Riiiight... Please show me where I said that hatred and ignorance only apply to one race. I know more than most people how untrue that is. When people don't know what you are, you tend to overhear all manner of prejudice (e.g. I've heard my fair share of anti-white prejudice, and that hurts just as much). In any event, what you are talking about is the experience of being a minority in a particular limited setting, but the big picture in the U.S. is that only certain racial groups are minorities in comparison to the whole population. It is no coincidence that I have been the minority in my elementary school, middle school, high school, college, and now med school. And the higher I go in my education, the fewer people there are who "look like me." We're talking about the meaning of being a minority; it's a simple numbers game. Are you denying that I'm a minority? What exactly is your argument with my post? All I shared was how my personal experiences have shaped my self-identification, so what's the problem?

Why then.. should AA only apply to some. When many more have experienced the same bad things your speaking of and they won't be eligible for assistance?

I didn't say anything about who AA should apply to. I simply addressed the question of how to classify oneself racially.

 

[Shredder]

Definition of minority:
the smaller in number of two groups constituting a whole; specifically : a group having less than the number of votes necessary for control
a part of a population differing from others in some characteristics and often subjected to differential treatment

Asians debunk your whole position then

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

Asians debunk your whole position then

To use your own words in the other AA thread this is due to "selection bias". That is to say, according to the last census 78 percent of the Asians in America are first generation immigrants...