An Affirmative Action Thread

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Newton Bohr MD said:
How would that help to erase the racial imbalance?? Are there not more "white" people than "black" people??? Thus, would that not help to increase the racial imbalance??

More white people than black people? In the US as a whole? In certain neighborhoods? In Professional schools? What specifically are you referring to?

I think AA is a good thing, but I feel it should be available to help needy people who haven't been given opportunities that people who are well off get.. such as good schools, good teachers, growing up in bad/dangerous neighborhoods, parents who care about them and value education, etc. (this doesn’t just apply to “blacks”)

If your mommy is a lawyer and your daddy is a doctor and you went to private schools.. Should AA apply to you just because your "black" if you had the best of everything available to you growing up?

Or should it also apply to the the poor white kid who grew up in a black community in the inner city and was ridiculed by them. Or the asian kid who grew up as an adopted kid in a broken family in Appalachia and felt secluded and didn’t have good support in their community growing up?

Hmm…

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Thundrstorm said:
Riiiight... Please show me where I said that hatred and ignorance only apply to one race. I know more than most people how untrue that is. When people don't know what you are, you tend to overhear all manner of prejudice (e.g. I've heard my fair share of anti-white prejudice, and that hurts just as much)..

I'm not saying that you did say that.. But because you only referred to your "blackness" and not your "whiteness" when referring to prejudice and hatetred. I assumed that's what you ment. But I'm glad that you can recogonise this and see that "whites" can experience the same thing growing up in an area that is majority black too. Or anyone for that matter who grows up around others who are different to them.

Thundrstorm said:
In any event, what you are talking about is the experience of being a minority in a particular limited setting, but the big picture in the U.S. is that only certain racial groups are minorities in comparison to the whole population. It is no coincidence that I have been the minority in my elementary school, middle school, high school, college, and now med school. And the higher I go in my education, the fewer people there are who "look like me." We're talking about the meaning of being a minority; it's a simple numbers game. Are you denying that I'm a minority? What exactly is your argument with my post? All I shared was how my personal experiences have shaped my self-identification, so what's the problem?.

No, I'm not denying that you are a "minority", but I'm saying that there are other people who are also "minorities" that AA at the current time does not help because they are not the "right shade minorities".

When you're 7 years old.. your "limited setting" is your universe.. you dont have any idea what the "rest of the country is like". And if you experience hatred and prejudice and this affects you so greatly then you may not make it to college, or med school to even find out what the rest of the population is like. If you are asian, white, or mixed, whatever.. you're not able to get any help or consideration because you're not the right color and this is wrong.



Thundrstorm said:
I didn't say anything about who AA should apply to. I simply addressed the question of how to classify oneself racially.

yes, but at least at the current time. "How you classify oneself racially" Does determine who AA applies to.
This is the problem.
 
Newton Bohr MD said:
To use your own words in the other AA thread this is due to "selection bias". That is to say, according to the last census 78 percent of the Asians in America are first generation immigrants...

Oh really? 78% of Asians in America are first generation immigrants? I want to see hard data on that, buddy.
 
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I'm Asian American and I want to help the underserved poor Chinese, Vietnamese, and Hmong population after I graduate from medical school (in poor areas like Chinatown). Can I label myself as a URM on my application also? I mean, I will really help poor Asians. I promise! hahaha

--> replace Asian/Chinese/Vietnamese/Hmong with Black/Hispanic and Chinatown with West Oakland, Detroit, Compton, etc. as the argument for URMs
 
ether^O^ said:
Oh really? 78% of Asians in America are first generation immigrants? I want to see hard data on that, buddy.
check the CENSUS
 
OzDDS said:
More white people than black people? In the US as a whole? In certain neighborhoods? In Professional schools? What specifically are you referring to?

I think AA is a good thing, but I feel it should be available to help needy people who haven't been given opportunities that people who are well off get.. such as good schools, good teachers, growing up in bad/dangerous neighborhoods, parents who care about them and value education, etc. (this doesn’t just apply to “blacks”)

If your mommy is a lawyer and your daddy is a doctor and you went to private schools.. Should AA apply to you just because your "black" if you had the best of everything available to you growing up?

Or should it also apply to the the poor white kid who grew up in a black community in the inner city and was ridiculed by them. Or the asian kid who grew up as an adopted kid in a broken family in Appalachia and felt secluded and didn’t have good support in their community growing up?

Hmm…


It has already been discussed in this thread… There are too few black people in the applications pool and, black people have the lowest acceptance rate… Thus, I don’t really see what you are complaining about… white people and asians both have a higher acceptance rate than black people.

I AM DONE POSTING…

For my opinion on AA see this thread

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=245260
 
Newton Bohr MD said:
To use your own words in the other AA thread this is due to "selection bias". That is to say, according to the last census 78 percent of the Asians in America are first generation immigrants...
Ha, selection bias isn't meant to be applied that loosely and broadly. If you start using it like that you can slap the selection bias label on just about anything. On internet forums it's usually used to counter arguments in the mold of "I'm right bc a few ppl I know are a good enough sample to prove some far fetched conclusion I am asserting".

Clarify what immigrant status has to do with it. Also account for first generation Mexican immigrants, of which there are many, all of whom receive AA. I would think immigrants would be subject to more obstacles than native born people.

Unless you are saying that only the best Asians manage to migrate to the USA, a filter of sorts. In which case selection bias may merit some more attention
 
mshollywoodmd said:
Yes admissions is a zero sums game but the point I was trying to make is that
for a seat that is taken away there is a greater probability that an overrepresented matriculant took the seat opposed to an underrepresented one, so why continually blame the one or two underrepresented minorities in a class? Also there are some schools who have had no underrepresented minorites in their incoming class...Who do you blame then?

I agree with most of your arguments. The likelihood is: if the seat isn't offered to a URM, it's going to go to someone similar to the "overrepresented group". AA as it's implemented right now is undeniably better than "no AA".

I do take issue with demonizing the people who suggest changes as "Blamers of the Underrepresented". Judging by your quote, the other poster didn't blame the underrepresented, just suggested that how you slice the groups makes a difference. That seems pretty accurate to me.

The reason for AA is to increase the number of underrepresented groups in medicine SO THAT UNDERREPRESENTED PATIENTS ARE SERVED BETTER, because, in theory, doctors will better serve patients with whom they have more in common. Remember the patients...the taxpayers who pay the doctors' reimbursement, guarantee the student loans, etc? Well, most of those who need the most help from this profession are poor and a lot are rural.

And {a couple of schools excepted}, there's not the same emphasis on recruiting people from those groups as there is other historically underrepresented groups. Granted, it's more difficult to recruit them because it takes more effort to identify who's "rural" and who's "poor" than identifying by skin color. That certainly doesn't mean that they have not been/are not underrepresented or "subject to differential treatment". According to AAMC, 60% of enrolled students have family incomes in the top quintile, with only 20% from the bottom three quintiles combined. I'd say the degree of underrepresentation's pretty staggering.

And I think it's normal/admirable for people to want to address the injustice of some people having to work long hours at a paid job in order to get through school, and receiving virtually no consideration from the admissions system for it. What's so unpalatable about that?

So maybe the system we've got is better than no system at all...and maybe it might take time and effort to improve it...I don't think that's any reason to "blame" ;) those who offer alternatives.
 
OzDDS said:
If your mommy is a lawyer and your daddy is a doctor and you went to private schools.. Should AA apply to you just because your "black" if you had the best of everything available to you growing up?

Or should it also apply to the the poor white kid who grew up in a black community in the inner city and was ridiculed by them. Or the asian kid who grew up as an adopted kid in a broken family in Appalachia and felt secluded and didn’t have good support in their community growing up?

Hmm…

and I am sure that if you included that somewhere in your personal statement about you childhood in appalachia or growing up white in an inner city... there would be some sort of AA applied to you as well. I can almost guarantee it. Just because you can't check minority in the little box doesn't mean that sometimes you are accepted based on "life experiences"

Now as to the black lawyers kid... most of the kids I know like that wouldn't need AA. They went to the best of private schools, and their gpa's are incredible... that is not to say they would get into med school though...

I think we are all losing the point...
AA is applied to everyone in some form or another but when it is to minorites (race or sex) it has a name. If not there are several people who apply with 4.0's, volunteer work and incredible MCAT scores every year. Not all of them get in but a person with a lower score (black, white or asian etc) might. Why? because the admissions commitee weighs several factors not just for the individual but for the medical school class as a whole, so that they all get the best exposure. Don't believe me? Speak to an admissions officer
 
decisions2006 said:
and I am sure that if you included that somewhere in your personal statement about you childhood in appalachia or growing up white in an inner city... there would be some sort of AA applied to you as well. I can almost guarantee it. Just because you can't check minority in the little box doesn't mean that sometimes you are accepted based on "life experiences"

Now as to the black lawyers kid... most of the kids I know like that wouldn't need AA. They went to the best of private schools, and their gpa's are incredible... that is not to say they would get into med school though...

I think we are all losing the point...
AA is applied to everyone in some form or another but when it is to minorites (race or sex) it has a name. If not there are several people who apply with 4.0's, volunteer work and incredible MCAT scores every year. Not all of them get in but a person with a lower score (black, white or asian etc) might. Why? because the admissions commitee weighs several factors not just for the individual but for the medical school class as a whole, so that they all get the best exposure. Don't believe me? Speak to an admissions officer

What are you talking about? AA for white kids growing up in the inner city? you "guarantee it" eh?

Well.. lets see it. Please.. Give me some examples (proof) of where AA applies to them. I don't believe you.

I think your confused to be honest.

Admissions commitees may "take into consideration" your "life experiences" if you were white growing up in black inner city ghetto, or asian in white rural applachia. But this is NOT the same as AA.
AA only applies to minorities (black, hispanic, and native american's) applying to med schools. Which means: YES.. you do have to "tick" the correct race box in order for AA to apply to you.

My question before was:

How "black" do you have to be in order for it to apply to you. If your 1/8th native american do you get AA too?

What about someone who is half hispanic?

The lines of races are really blurred in the United States where we are all just a mix of everything anyways (most of us).

Someone in response to my question said, "if someone is capable of representing a community then, it should not matter if they are half this or a forth that as long as people in the community can relate to them"


AA should only take into consideration socioecconomic factors and where you grew up. Not the color of your skin. (in my opinion).
 
just wondering. are pacific islanders grouped with asians?
 
OzDDS said:
AA should only take into consideration socioecconomic factors and where you grew up. Not the color of your skin. (in my opinion).

True, but the "machine" isn't concerned about disparities and inequities when it comes to socioeconomic factors - it's only concerned about getting more URM's into medicine and they have no other way of doing it other than AA - it's quite sad really.
 
OzDDS said:
What are you talking about? AA for white kids growing up in the inner city? you "guarantee it" eh?

Well.. lets see it. Please.. Give me some examples (proof) of where AA applies to them. I don't believe you.

I think your confused to be honest.

Admissions commitees may "take into consideration" your "life experiences" if you were white growing up in black inner city ghetto, or asian in white rural applachia. But this is NOT the same as AA.
AA only applies to minorities (black, hispanic, and native american's) applying to med schools. Which means: YES.. you do have to "tick" the correct race box in order for AA to apply to you.

My question before was:

How "black" do you have to be in order for it to apply to you. If your 1/8th native american do you get AA too?

What about someone who is half hispanic?

The lines of races are really blurred in the United States where we are all just a mix of everything anyways (most of us).

Someone in response to my question said, "if someone is capable of representing a community then, it should not matter if they are half this or a forth that as long as people in the community can relate to them"


AA should only take into consideration socioecconomic factors and where you grew up. Not the color of your skin. (in my opinion).


Whoa, whoa, whoa... I called it "some sort of AA" for lack of a better word. I know what AA is. I don't know what you'd call it if you got in based on life experiences to be honest.
In response to your other questions - first of all the need for native americans in the medical field is huge. I was at the IHS on a reservation a few years ago and I was sad to find that the percentage who had gone to med school and actually worked with the community was :thumbdown: . If you put in your application that you were 1/8th native american and wanted to serve this population after graduation - yes you'd probably be looked on more favorably... however I am 1/8th native american, and I could say that but I am so far removed from identifying with it that I'd feel weird to get in that way (but if you do they have great scholarships too).

I don't know how it would work for the half hispanic kid. I think it should apply, but I don't know.

I agree also with the fact that it should be based off of socio-economic factors. However I think that it (not AA :D ) would come into play for a white person who had lower scores and grow up in the inner city and put that in the application, and be less needed for the black kid from the suburb who went to the best schools (and this may be a gross overgeneralization but I think I can say it as I am the latter).

I think my main point is people always needs something to focus on. We don't see everyone in med school that has a 4.0 and 45 MCAT. A wide range are accepted for various reasons, white or minority. AA unfortunately (or not, depending on whom I guess), just happens to be another one of those.
 
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