An awkward situation...

[Ramona5]

---

Members do not see this ad.

I was volunteering at the hospital affiliated with my university and I met this guy... I came back the next week to volunteer again, and I ran into him again and found out he was a doctor there-- a vascular surgeon. That night, I found his page on the hospital's website. He has this amazing curriculum vitae... that was where I found out that he's an assistant professor @ the school of medicine too (top 15 school no less). I feel like I could really benefit from knowing him, just because he seems to have had such a fascinating interesting professional life. The bad thing.... when we met he asked me to go out for drinks (he's young), and so I sort of have a feeling furthering my career isn't the 1st thing on his mind. I'm interested in knowing him on a professional level, but nothing else... and I don't want it to turn into a "what's it worth to ya?" kinda thing, if you know what I mean. Any suggestions on how to handle this potentially awkward situation? I thought I might ask because I can't be the only person this has ever happened to... Thanks!

 

[sweet2th]

shake whatcha momma gave ya! thats always my motto. no seriously, a friend who is an attending got into med school because of her connection to a guy who had a little crush on her. you are not obligated to do a thing with anyone, but I'm sure a conversation over a drink would be more valuable and in depth than he would have at the hospital.

 

[juice55]

what, is he ugly or something? you don't want to go out for drinks?

 

[Ramona5]

lol!... no, he's actually pretty good looking-- that's what makes me hesitate a little.... b/c it's easier to think of him in a nonprofessional way LOL

*pauses*

Still, no, you're so right....... what am I doing?!! I have way more to possibly gain from this than lose. I'll call him tomorrow. Thanks for helping me see clearly. I don't know what I was thinking lol.

 

[Samoa]

If you like him, go have a drink with him. That way, even if it eventually becomes a conflict of interest to initiate a relationship with a faculty member, you've already gone out with him, and the school, not you, will have to adjust whatever it needs to in order to eliminate the conflict.

 

[Jccripe]

go have drinks! Hang out and have intimate conversation. It would be better for him to really know you than if you just half-assed it for a LOR or something.

 

[inside_edition]

go have drinks! Hang out and have intimate conversation. It would be better for him to really know you than if you just half-assed it for a LOR or something.

What the LOR says: "Ramona5 is a fast learner and is very enthusiastic about medicine"

What he really means: "Ramona5 is a fast learner in bed and is very enthusiastic about letting me bone her"

 

[xylem29]

I'll let you know this though - if you play along with him and lead him on, don't do anything bad until after admissions b/c if you upset him, he CAN make sure you don't get into whatever school he belongs to.

 

[Haemulon]

I'll let you know this though - if you play along with him and lead him on, don't do anything bad until after admissions b/c if you upset him, he CAN make sure you don't get into whatever school he belongs to.

Then its best to keep him happy 😉

 

[PEN15]

I was volunteering at the hospital affiliated with my university and I met this guy... I came back the next week to volunteer again, and I ran into him again and found out he was a doctor there-- a vascular surgeon. That night, I found his page on the hospital's website. He has this amazing curriculum vitae... that was where I found out that he's an assistant professor @ the school of medicine too (top 15 school no less). I feel like I could really benefit from knowing him, just because he seems to have had such a fascinating interesting professional life. The bad thing.... when we met he asked me to go out for drinks (he's young), and so I sort of have a feeling furthering my career isn't the 1st thing on his mind. I'm interested in knowing him on a professional level, but nothing else... and I don't want it to turn into a "what's it worth to ya?" kinda thing, if you know what I mean. Any suggestions on how to handle this potentially awkward situation? I thought I might ask because I can't be the only person this has ever happened to... Thanks!

This could potentially be really really good or really really bad.

Using people to get ahead never really seem to work for me. What if you end up getting what you want and he doesn't? Could he turn out to be a real assho!e? Make sure you tell him what's up in the beginning.

 

[ICCONFETTI]

There's no harm in a couple of drinks.....

Hm... vascular surgeon eh....

I say, screw med school, marry him, and become a gold digger.
Yay!

 

[yobynaes]

drama,
trauma...


dang, im a born poet.

 

[sweet2th]

this reminds me of Gray's Anatomy. yeah! is that on tonight or another re-run?

 

[Quix]

As a faculty member who has had flirty undergraduates, this is a really, *really* bad idea. One, it immediately creates a conflict of interest for you if you are accepted. Two, it immediately creates a conflict of interest for him, which can get him fired/reprimanded (especially if he ends up teaching a class you take). Three, it's generally a bad idea to manipulate people, personally and professionally, for egoistic and altruistic reasons. Fourth, it's unethical, especially if you've identified the problem and have voluntarily chosen to pursue it.

Bad, bad, bad.

 

[Haemulon]

As a faculty member who has had flirty undergraduates, this is a really, *really* bad idea. One, it immediately creates a conflict of interest for you if you are accepted. Two, it immediately creates a conflict of interest for him, which can get him fired/reprimanded (especially if he ends up teaching a class you take). Three, it's generally a bad idea to manipulate people, personally and professionally, for egoistic and altruistic reasons. Fourth, it's unethical, especially if you've identified the problem and have voluntarily chosen to pursue it.

Bad, bad, bad.

You mean non-altruistic right?

 

[Samoa]

As a faculty member who has had flirty undergraduates, this is a really, *really* bad idea. One, it immediately creates a conflict of interest for you if you are accepted. Two, it immediately creates a conflict of interest for him, which can get him fired/reprimanded (especially if he ends up teaching a class you take). Three, it's generally a bad idea to manipulate people, personally and professionally, for egoistic and altruistic reasons. Fourth, it's unethical, especially if you've identified the problem and have voluntarily chosen to pursue it.

Bad, bad, bad.

I agree and disagree with various parts of your statement.

First of all, I disagree with your assessment of the ethics of the situation. What we're talking about here is a hypothetical and potential conflict of interest, not one that currently exists between their two roles and importantly, may never exist at all. Unless he sits on the admissions committee for the school in question, there is currently no conflict of interest in her having a drink with him.

In addition, if they develop a relationship, and they learn subsequently that she has to take a class from him, then it's the school that needs to resolve the conflict via its internal grading process. Neither party should be reprimanded for a relationship which began in the absence of any conflict of interest.

I agree, however, that it is unethical to manipulate people and relationships for personal gain. But things can look manipulative in hindsight that were not at all so at the time. If you're looking in from the outside, and neither party is confiding in you, then you have no idea whether someone is behaving manipulatively or not.

I agree, though, that given what's been said on this thread, this particular situation would be hard to navigate with integrity on both sides. But it could be done.

 

[juice55]

he's a doctor. doesn't everyone want to date a doctor?

 

[ClockworkDoc]

The story sounds fake. I would definitely go out with a doc that I met while volunteering, that is if I were single.

 

[inside_edition]

The story sounds fake. I would definitely go out with a doc that I met while volunteering, that is if I were single.

lol, maybe she could teach you something new

 

[PEN15]

this reminds me of Gray's Anatomy. yeah! is that on tonight or another re-run?

I think it's a new one tonight. The only episode I've seen thus far is the one when that hot blond chick got a check for 8.7 million dollars. The show is too slow for me.

 

[inside_edition]

I think it's a new one tonight. The only episode I've seen thus far is the one when that hot blond chick got a check for 8.7 million dollars. The show is too slow for me.

there's facebook, myspace, sdn, tv, the internet,etc all for procrastination.

 

[PEN15]

there's facebook, myspace, sdn, tv, the internet,etc all for procrastination.

but you're forgetting the most important one of all ... 🙄 😱

 

[Missterious1]

I've been in a similar situation before. It doesn't have to be ethically risky as people here are saying. Just make sure you make your intentions clear so that you don't run into trouble in the future.
BUT if the two of you end up dating or something, be careful - very careful. You don't want to burn any bridges. It would be in your best interest to keep him out of your admissions process (meaning, for example, don't try to get a letter or rec from him, don't ask him to put in a good word for you at that med school), as this would make it seem like you're just using him to get ahead, and hopefully you wouldn't be dating him for that purpose.

 

[Steiner]

I agree and disagree with various parts of your statement.

First of all, I disagree with your assessment of the ethics of the situation. What we're talking about here is a hypothetical and potential conflict of interest, not one that currently exists between their two roles and importantly, may never exist at all. Unless he sits on the admissions committee for the school in question, there is currently no conflict of interest in her having a drink with him.

In addition, if they develop a relationship, and they learn subsequently that she has to take a class from him, then it's the school that needs to resolve the conflict via its internal grading process. Neither party should be reprimanded for a relationship which began in the absence of any conflict of interest.

I agree, however, that it is unethical to manipulate people and relationships for personal gain. But things can look manipulative in hindsight that were not at all so at the time. If you're looking in from the outside, and neither party is confiding in you, then you have no idea whether someone is behaving manipulatively or not.

I agree, though, that given what's been said on this thread, this particular situation would be hard to navigate with integrity on both sides. But it could be done.

I agree with everything here, plus Caramel deLites are the best cookies ever made.

 

[HumbleMD]

I agree with everything here, plus Caramel deLites are the best cookies ever made.

Samoas! Samoas!

 

[Samoa]

I agree with everything here, plus Caramel deLites are the best cookies ever made.

Samoas! Samoas!

I'm not picky, I'll answer to both.

By the way, I just noticed that in Ramona's original post, she mentioned that she was only interested in him professionally. In which case she really shouldn't go have drinks with him, as that is without question a social rather than a professional interaction. Lunch, sure. Drinks, no, unless it's with a bunch of people all going out for drinks together.

 

[Quix]

I agree and disagree with various parts of your statement.

First of all, I disagree with your assessment of the ethics of the situation. What we're talking about here is a hypothetical and potential conflict of interest, not one that currently exists between their two roles and importantly, may never exist at all. Unless he sits on the admissions committee for the school in question, there is currently no conflict of interest in her having a drink with him.

I agree with you on that, but what I wrote was predicated on her being accepted at that school.

In addition, if they develop a relationship, and they learn subsequently that she has to take a class from him, then it's the school that needs to resolve the conflict via its internal grading process. Neither party should be reprimanded for a relationship which began in the absence of any conflict of interest.

The academic policies I have encountered as faculty indicate that this kind of thing is an absolute no-no and are contract-ending, so assuming medical faculty have similar burdens, this would put him over a barrel.

I agree, however, that it is unethical to manipulate people and relationships for personal gain. But things can look manipulative in hindsight that were not at all so at the time. If you're looking in from the outside, and neither party is confiding in you, then you have no idea whether someone is behaving manipulatively or not.

I'm basing my manipulation comments off of the OP's comments that she has a lot to gain from this, which I may have misinterpreted as manipulation. I freely admit that I could be mistaken; I'm just basing this off of what was presented.

I agree, though, that given what's been said on this thread, this particular situation would be hard to navigate with integrity on both sides. But it could be done.

Again, there are professional consequences (which can also affect later career options) that aren't a question of navigation; faculty-student relationships are punished, not simply discouraged. Further, in the contracts that I have signed, they explicitly indicate codes of appropriate conduct. This same kind of thing is echoed in the AMA Guidelines of Professional Ethics (and emphasized strongly in the psychiatry supplement), but it is referring to the physician-patient relationship. The underlying reason is that there is a power relationship between teacher and student (just like physician and patient), which can lead to manipulation, coercion, and abuse, so these institutions institute a "you can't do it at all" policy instead of a "you have to be careful" policy.

 

[Quix]

You mean non-altruistic right?

Oops, I wasn't clear, and I can see why you asked this. I was using "egoistic" and "altruistic" to refer to the idea, not the manipulation. What I meant to say was that there are both self-oriented and other-oriented reasons why manipulation is a bad idea.

 

[Samoa]

The academic policies I have encountered as faculty indicate that this kind of thing is an absolute no-no and are contract-ending, so assuming medical faculty have similar burdens, this would put him over a barrel.

Again, there are professional consequences (which can also affect later career options) that aren't a question of navigation; faculty-student relationships are punished, not simply discouraged. Further, in the contracts that I have signed, they explicitly indicate codes of appropriate conduct. This same kind of thing is echoed in the AMA Guidelines of Professional Ethics (and emphasized strongly in the psychiatry supplement), but it is referring to the physician-patient relationship. The underlying reason is that there is a power relationship between teacher and student (just like physician and patient), which can lead to manipulation, coercion, and abuse, so these institutions institute a "you can't do it at all" policy instead of a "you have to be careful" policy.

That makes no sense whatsoever. If the relationship already exists, what are you supposed to do, break up? Not go to med school? Decline the job offer? Live apart so one can be faculty and the other a student?

I agree with you that it's a difficult situation, but you cannot expect people to behave with integrity and seek an aboveboard solution if the institution has no flexibility at all and doing so will only result in punishment. It's draconian, unworkable and unrealistic as long as you have human beings working together in any capacity.

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

I was volunteering at the hospital affiliated with my university and I met this guy... I came back the next week to volunteer again, and I ran into him again and found out he was a doctor there-- a vascular surgeon. That night, I found his page on the hospital's website. He has this amazing curriculum vitae... that was where I found out that he's an assistant professor @ the school of medicine too (top 15 school no less). I feel like I could really benefit from knowing him, just because he seems to have had such a fascinating interesting professional life. The bad thing.... when we met he asked me to go out for drinks (he's young), and so I sort of have a feeling furthering my career isn't the 1st thing on his mind. I'm interested in knowing him on a professional level, but nothing else... and I don't want it to turn into a "what's it worth to ya?" kinda thing, if you know what I mean. Any suggestions on how to handle this potentially awkward situation? I thought I might ask because I can't be the only person this has ever happened to... Thanks!

So if you aren't a non trad, I'm guessing you are around 21-22ish. Vascular surgeon means probably around 35. He probably isn't immature enough to burn you on applications, but then again he is a man...

 

[Quix]

That makes no sense whatsoever. If the relationship already exists, what are you supposed to do, break up? Not go to med school? Decline the job offer? Live apart so one can be faculty and the other a student?

I agree with you that it's a difficult situation, but you cannot expect people to behave with integrity and seek an aboveboard solution if the institution has no flexibility at all and doing so will only result in punishment. It's draconian, unworkable and unrealistic as long as you have human beings working together in any capacity.

Well, it makes sense from a CYA perspective, which is the bottom line in many places of employment. It's much easier to deal with these situations when the policy is black and white, even if it seems to be a grey question. I'm not saying "it's right", I'm just saying "It is." And because it is, her choice potentially to get involved with him may put him in conflict with this standard.

It's not really as bad of a policy as you make it out to be; you just get used to it, and look elsewhere for romantic and/or sexual relationships. It becomes easier to keep a professional distance in the teacher/student relationship. Plus, if this is something that is "meant to be", med school isn't forever.

 

[Chuckwalla]

I second the become a golddigger recommendation. I mean a vascular surgeon? That guy is loaded. Unless you really want to help people as a doctor. But come on, who wants to do that?

 

[Wackie]

What Would Meredith Do? 😕



You aren't interested in him romantically, correct? Ask your questions and if he brings it up, or says something towards romance, put on your big girl panties and tell him you're not looking for a relationship like that. If he's a big boy, he can take it. If he can't, then a relationship with him is only going to bite you in the butt later.

 

[Ramona5]

That's interesting, I asked my mom for advice about this whole thing and she reminded me about the policies you were talking about too. It's definitely something to think about-- I really wouldn't want to get him or myself in trouble... especially since we aren't together or anything. I guess I'll cross that bridge if I even get to it, which I may not, because that's not really what I'm looking for now-- as silly as that sounds because if you would've asked me a few months ago (before I transferred) I would've been like "ARE YOU CRAZY?!... he's a surgeon... MAKE TIME!" lol.

While it sounds like a good thing in theory, and it's amusing to entertain the possibility 😉 it could all go pretty bad. However, I don't want to forget about the whole thing because I can't overlook the fact that he could potentially be a big help. Just from talking to him though, I'm not going to lie, I love hearing about his life and all the fascinating things he's doing! It's probably because I've never really had any connections with any doctors personally, so it's great 🙂

Another thing worth mentioning too... I hate to be mean and think like this, but I'm sure he knows how to use his accomplishments to impress the ladies-- and I'm sure I can't be the 1st at that hospital.... dun dun dunn... Since I don't work with him, it's not like I know him professionally- he really is just a guy I met at the hospital, only I lucked out and he was a surgeon w/ a ton of credentials. I just want to make it clear to him that if he's got other ideas that that's not what I'm about, but not so clear that it comes out as rude and he never calls me again.

Anyways, from what I've seen, he seems like a pretty great guy, but I'm really trying to focus on school right now-- it's important!! The good thing for me at least is that he's always really busy- so it buys me some time. Any more suggestions? My ideal situation would be to keep him around as a friend... or a good contact?... if thats even the right word, because he has accomplished so many things I sort of feel a little intimidated and like I can't relate, even though I want to be able to. Does someone know what I mean? How do I keep that balance?

 

[BeatrixKiddo]

There's no harm in a couple of drinks.....

Hm... vascular surgeon eh....

I say, screw med school, marry him, and become a gold digger.
Yay!

Shut up, that's MY plan!!

That's interesting, I asked my mom for advice about this whole thing and she reminded me about the policies you were talking about too. It's definitely something to think about-- I really wouldn't want to get him or myself in trouble... especially since we aren't together or anything. I guess I'll cross that bridge if I even get to it, which I may not, because that's not really what I'm looking for now-- as silly as that sounds because if you would've asked me a few months ago (before I transferred) I would've been like "ARE YOU CRAZY?!... he's a surgeon... MAKE TIME!" lol.

Hm.. I knew there was a better reason to volunteer at a hospital. Note to self: Fill out volunteer form tomorrow.

 

[FutureNeuroStud]

What Would Meredith Do? 😕



You aren't interested in him romantically, correct? Ask your questions and if he brings it up, or says something towards romance, put on your big girl panties and tell him you're not looking for a relationship like that. If he's a big boy, he can take it. If he can't, then a relationship with him is only going to bite you in the butt later.

If you're speaking of Meredith from Grey's, she'd definitely do the guy.

 

[ICCONFETTI]

Meredith is a total slut!

 

[OncoCaP]

I doubt that it is possible to judge this accurately over e-mail. However, here is my guess: The way this situation was described in the original post ("awkward"), this is a "no go" on drinks as far as I can tell unless OP's looking for a personal relationship or likes to gamble. My read (which, again, could be totally wrong) is the that the OP likes "this guy" or could very easily go there in the future. This might be a happily ever after deal, but not the road to a recommendation as it looks right now. Given the original message description, I seriously doubt "this guy" would be any help professionally unless OP worked professionally (as in helping with surgeries) with him, which might be worth exploring. I would find a volunteer position (either at the existing hospital or elsewhere) where interaction with doctors on a professional basis is likely so that I could get a great recommendation because of the quality of my work. If OP feels like there is clarification needed up front ... a bad sign ... that would be really awkward!

 

[NonTradMed]

If you're interested in talking with him, go for the drinks....it doesn't have to be a date unless you make it one. If you aren't interested in him and he makes a pass or asks you out on a serious date, just say you aren't looking for a relationship or you're already in one. If you are interested in him, no biggie. I can't imagine the school can burn him for dating a student if you started seeing him a year before matriculation. Treat him like any other guy. After all, there's no guarantee you will attend the school in the near future, right?

 

[Samoa]

Well, it makes sense from a CYA perspective, which is the bottom line in many places of employment. It's much easier to deal with these situations when the policy is black and white, even if it seems to be a grey question. I'm not saying "it's right", I'm just saying "It is." And because it is, her choice potentially to get involved with him may put him in conflict with this standard.

I should clarify: I agree 100% if the situation involves two people meeting as student/teacher, and even if the faculty member is not currently your teacher but you know they will be at some point. In that situation, yes, either let it go or wait for the conflict to resolve itself. For doctor/patient situations, there are clear guidelines from the AMA, so that's not really up for discussion either.

This situation, though, involves someone who is not currently a student of his and may never be (actually, very likely would never be, even if she attended the school). And it's a slippery slope if you have to cross people off for a mere potential conflict of interest sometime in the future. By your standard, students can't date residents, or even upper-classmen at some schools, residents can't date attendings, administrators can't be married to faculty, and so on. And such relationships exist everywhere you go, and often between people considered highly ethical by their peers.

It's not a reasonable standard, and it's one that, frankly, is unnecessary in situations that don't involve one party evaluating the other.

And it's very easy in most cases to avoid having one party evaluate the other. Punishing people instead is just ethically lazy.

 

[Samoa]

If you're interested in talking with him, go for the drinks....it doesn't have to be a date unless you make it one. If you aren't interested in him and he makes a pass or asks you out on a serious date, just say you aren't looking for a relationship or you're already in one. If you are interested in him, no biggie. I can't imagine the school can burn him for dating a student if you started seeing him a year before matriculation. Treat him like any other guy. After all, there's no guarantee you will attend the school in the near future, right?

Except she knows she's not interested, other than professionally. So she really shouldn't go have drinks with him if it's just the two of them. That's clearly a prelude to dating, if not a date itself.

 

[Wackie]

Student/teacher-mentor should not go out for "drinks". Lunch is good, but drinks isn't something for student/mentor relationships...at least until they know each other pretty well.

 

[dpmd]

I am sorry, but guy asks young thing he just met out for drinks =would you like to fornicate. It is not any type of prelude to a meaningful professional relationship, and in many cases isn't a prelude to any type of lasting social relationship. Especially if said young thing is hot.

Tread carefully. Say no to drinks and tell him you would like to know more about what it is like being a surgeon or that you would like to observe a surgery. It is possible he will switch to mentor mode, I just wouldn't bet on it.

With that said, if you would like to fornicate with him by all means go ahead. I don't think it is likely you would be graded by him in the future, and I don't think you would still be in a relationship by the time you enter med school so I don't think there will be much conflict of interest.

 

[Quix]

samoa-

I think we actually agree more than we disagree. Most of what I wrote is based on her being admitted to the medical school in which he is faculty; if she's not, there's no real conflict along the lines I've argued. Sorry if that isn't clear. The manipulation issue is separate, and if someone is being used, I'm not inclined to endorse it. That still seems to be up in the air. In regards to student-teacher relationships, well that's a much trickier issue than what you're making it out to be.

By your standard, students can't date residents, or even upper-classmen at some schools, residents can't date attendings, administrators can't be married to faculty, and so on. And such relationships exist everywhere you go, and often between people considered highly ethical by their peers.

The fact that such relationships exist does not make them ethical or justified when they conflict with existing policy (again, this is based on the CYA principle adopted by educational and corporate organzations). In fact, it's not such a slippery slope - it is in effect. The University of Pittsburgh, for instance, has UTU-led recitation/lab sections for general chemistry ([UTU: Undergraduates Teaching Undergraduates] and UTU-led labs for organic chemistry); qualified undergraduates are expected not to exploit their position and have these kind of relationships. Graduate students can't have these kinds of relationships with their professors, nor can they have them with undergraduates for classes that they teach. Again, it's a coercion/power issue.

It's not a reasonable standard, and it's one that, frankly, is unnecessary in situations that don't involve one party evaluating the other.

Disagree with the former, agree with the later. You might argue that it's unreasonable, but it's a simple and absolute defense against liability in these kinds of situations. Academic and professional institutions don't care about love, they care about liability, and that is the standard by which they set their policies. If someone wants to be part of that organization, it becomes unreasonable for him/her to expect the institution to expose themselves to liability so that two employees can get their groove on.

 

[Ramona5]

I am sorry, but guy asks young thing he just met out for drinks =would you like to fornicate. It is not any type of prelude to a meaningful professional relationship, and in many cases isn't a prelude to any type of lasting social relationship. Especially if said young thing is hot.

Tread carefully. Say no to drinks and tell him you would like to know more about what it is like being a surgeon or that you would like to observe a surgery. It is possible he will switch to mentor mode, I just wouldn't bet on it.

With that said, if you would like to fornicate with him by all means go ahead. I don't think it is likely you would be graded by him in the future, and I don't think you would still be in a relationship by the time you enter med school so I don't think there will be much conflict of interest.

I was thinking the same thing. I didn't get the impression furthering my career was 1st on his mind because I didn't meet him directly through volunteering. After I talked to him however, I thought maybe he might like me and help if I asked and I could turn it into some kind of friendship instead of a "relationship"-- I mean, I guess the relationship thing would be ok, but I'm really not looking for that right now (from anyone, not just him in particular...) But, if he's made it pretty clear that he's interested in more, is that still even possible?? (the drinks I think are a dead giveaway... it wasn't friendly drinks... and plus, I don't think I know him well enough for "friendly drinks" yet anyway.) I think I'd do lunch... but I don't know, even that's questionable! Just because it's daytime doesn't mean he won't still only see me as a piece of meat lol. It's also tricky because I don't have a car, and I don't really feel comfortable going in his car when I don't know him all that well 😳 Could be trouble... lol $200 says he doesn't even take me seriously at all and isn't even thinking about helping me....... BUT if he isn't, do you think there's still a chance he might be open to it? I'm not looking for the guy to get me into med school, but it would mean a lot to me to have a doctor I know personally that I can talk to-- especially since he's young and things he went through are still a little relevant.

I mean not unless everyone thinks that I should just claw my way to the top and do what I have to do, but I'd like to think I have more respect for myself than that. Seriously, lol, is that what getting into med school has come to? If I start anything w/ this guy it wouldn't be to use him to get me into med school.

 

[Ramona5]

I am sorry, but guy asks young thing he just met out for drinks =would you like to fornicate. It is not any type of prelude to a meaningful professional relationship, and in many cases isn't a prelude to any type of lasting social relationship. Especially if said young thing is hot.

Tread carefully. Say no to drinks and tell him you would like to know more about what it is like being a surgeon or that you would like to observe a surgery. It is possible he will switch to mentor mode, I just wouldn't bet on it.

With that said, if you would like to fornicate with him by all means go ahead. I don't think it is likely you would be graded by him in the future, and I don't think you would still be in a relationship by the time you enter med school so I don't think there will be much conflict of interest.

I was thinking the same thing. I didn't get the impression furthering my career was 1st on his mind because I didn't meet him directly through volunteering. After I talked to him however, I thought maybe he might like me and help if I asked and I could turn it into some kind of friendship instead of a "relationship"-- I mean, I guess the relationship thing would be ok, but I'm really not looking for that right now (from anyone, not just him in particular...) But, if he's made it pretty clear that he's interested in more, is that still even possible?? (the drinks I think are a dead giveaway... it wasn't friendly drinks... and plus, I don't think I know him well enough for "friendly drinks" yet anyway.) I think I'd do lunch... but I don't know, even that's questionable! Just because it's daytime doesn't mean he won't still only see me as a piece of meat lol. It's also tricky because I don't have a car, and I don't really feel comfortable going in his car when I don't know him all that well 😳 Could be trouble... lol $200 says he doesn't even take me seriously at all and isn't even thinking about helping me....... BUT if he isn't, do you think there's still a chance he might be open to it? I'm not looking for the guy to get me into med school, but it would mean a lot to me to have a doctor I know personally that I can talk to-- especially since he's young and things he went through are still a little relevant.

I mean not unless everyone thinks that I should just claw my way to the top and do what I have to do, but I'd like to think I have more respect for myself than that. Seriously, lol, is that what getting into med school has come to? If I start anything w/ this guy it wouldn't be to use him to get me into med school.

 

[Ramona5]

I am sorry, but guy asks young thing he just met out for drinks =would you like to fornicate. It is not any type of prelude to a meaningful professional relationship, and in many cases isn't a prelude to any type of lasting social relationship. Especially if said young thing is hot.

Tread carefully. Say no to drinks and tell him you would like to know more about what it is like being a surgeon or that you would like to observe a surgery. It is possible he will switch to mentor mode, I just wouldn't bet on it.

With that said, if you would like to fornicate with him by all means go ahead. I don't think it is likely you would be graded by him in the future, and I don't think you would still be in a relationship by the time you enter med school so I don't think there will be much conflict of interest.

I was thinking the same thing. I didn't get the impression furthering my career was 1st on his mind because I didn't meet him directly through volunteering. After I talked to him however, I thought maybe he might like me and help if I asked and I could turn it into some kind of friendship instead of a "relationship"-- I mean, I guess the relationship thing would be ok, but I'm really not looking for that right now (from anyone, not just him in particular...) But, if he's made it pretty clear that he's interested in more, is that still even possible?? (the drinks I think are a dead giveaway... it wasn't friendly drinks... and plus, I don't think I know him well enough for "friendly drinks" yet anyway.) I think I'd do lunch... but I don't know, even that's questionable! Just because it's daytime doesn't mean he won't still only see me as a piece of meat lol. It's also tricky because I don't have a car, and I don't really feel comfortable going in his car when I don't know him all that well 😳 Could be trouble... lol $200 says he doesn't even take me seriously at all and isn't even thinking about helping me....... BUT if he isn't, do you think there's still a chance he might be open to it? I'm not looking for the guy to get me into med school, but it would mean a lot to me to have a doctor I know personally that I can talk to-- especially since he's young and things he went through are still a little relevant.

I mean not unless everyone thinks that I should just claw my way to the top and do what I have to do, but I'd like to think I have more respect for myself than that. Seriously, lol, is that what getting into med school has come to? If I start anything w/ this guy it wouldn't be to use him to get me into med school.

 

[Quix]

You know, I didn't believe you in the first post, but the second and third convinced me. 🙂

 

[Ramona5]

sorry! 🙁 I clicked the darn thing before and it wasnt working... I guess it is now though lol. yay!

 

[Samoa]

The fact that such relationships exist does not make them ethical or justified when they conflict with existing policy (again, this is based on the CYA principle adopted by educational and corporate organzations). In fact, it's not such a slippery slope - it is in effect. The University of Pittsburgh, for instance, has UTU-led recitation/lab sections for general chemistry ([UTU: Undergraduates Teaching Undergraduates] and UTU-led labs for organic chemistry); qualified undergraduates are expected not to exploit their position and have these kind of relationships. Graduate students can't have these kinds of relationships with their professors, nor can they have them with undergraduates for classes that they teach. Again, it's a coercion/power issue.

I understand your point, and you keep making it using a direct teaching relationship like the kind you find on the bachelors/masters/phd track. I'm not disputing that relationships between teachers and students in their class are unethical. What I'm saying is that in medical school, there are many situations in which it's not so clear cut, and that a difference in the classification to which one belongs (faculty/resident/student) does not necessarily imply coercion, or even any significant power of one over the other. And when you make rules that are far broader in scope than the ethical concern they address, they're going to get broken in situations where the ethical concern doesn't apply. If the institution is going to call all of those people unethical, then it's going to lose out on a lot of good people.

Maybe people are clamoring at the gates to get a position there, and the institution can afford to be callous in the application of its rules. But I'd much prefer to work at a place that values its people a little more than that.