An emergency doc's budget

[Pinner Doc]

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I know what ADs points were and I think they were all valid. I greatly enjoyed his post. I was just commenting in reference to some of the other threads responses. I think most physicians, especially when they are still medical students, have no idea what having children entails in terms of your budget. So I laugh when I see people respond to ADs threads about how you should spend your money and how you can live your life less extravagantly when they have never had any real financial responsibilities. It's the typical response of the kid who's parents were docs that paid for school for them, they got to drive a caddy as a resident, they have no kids and they don't understand how we say that the average physician doesn't have the splurge money that you think when your watching TV medicine shows. Yes we all will have very good incomes compared to the rest of the workforce, but when you account for what it took to get to that point, your tax rate, saving for retirement, the massive expense that is children, it doesn't go nearly as far as you would think.

No one is forced to have children (I mean, as far as I know). I don't think it's unreasonable to consider procreation an extravagance.

 

[Flushot]

That's very optimistic to think you'll be able to tolerate living in a studio as an attending, single or not. I don't know anyone who does, but perhaps you can.

If marriage/kids is something you want, I wouldn't avoid it for monetary reasons. You obviously will make enough to pay back your loans AND support a family. I was married when med school started. We thought we were smart to put the kids off until after graduation but I had lots of classmates with kids. Not that big a deal if that is the lifestyle you want. If not, well, you'll have more money to blow on coke, hookers, and taxes.

But yes, my situation would be drastically different without kids. I'd probably have a 3 bedroom townhouse with a garage, maybe 1500 sq feet, do a lot more traveling, drive a nicer car, have nicer skis, and put more toward retirement (and a lot more toward taxes of course.)

I apologize the lateness of this response, but thank you for answering promptly. The post above me sort of ties into this as well.

I see that your decisions to have the family throughout training made a huge difference. This is really why it is far from optimistic to put off getting married and/or having kids until financial stability. Do things change? Sure, anything can happen and certainly if people walked into school or residency with an opportunity, they'd make it work. But, I'm speaking from being at the end of 2nd year and being single.

Living with a roommate or alone in a studio isn't too difficult or strange. I just feel that people get accustomed to certain living conditions and it's not that big of a deal if they are. A few more hundred dollars a month is a drop in the bucket in the long run.

Still, it is not necessary to buy a house, get married, or have kids, at all. They're just options/lifestyle choices. I wouldn't assume that the extra money will go to hookers, drugs or lavish parties either. I have many family members I can help first with this extra money and even if I didn't, investing isn't a bad idea either.

I thank you again for the response and sharing your budget and experiences. It's probably hard to say much about the other side of going through this process since you entered in married with a family in mind, but as a single guy nowhere near close to either prospects, the single life for many years to come is not as extreme as it seems.

 

[Arcan57]

I apologize the lateness of this response, but thank you for answering promptly. The post above me sort of ties into this as well.

I see that your decisions to have the family throughout training made a huge difference. This is really why it is far from optimistic to put off getting married and/or having kids until financial stability. Do things change? Sure, anything can happen and certainly if people walked into school or residency with an opportunity, they'd make it work. But, I'm speaking from being at the end of 2nd year and being single....

I thank you again for the response and sharing your budget and experiences. It's probably hard to say much about the other side of going through this process since you entered in married with a family in mind, but as a single guy nowhere near close to either prospects, the single life for many years to come is not as extreme as it seems.

There's a pretty big gulf between being a second year medical student and being an attending for many reasons. This time of year as an M2 I was studying esoteric crap 14hrs/day for 42 straight days trying to ace Step I, living in a house with 3 other guys, sleeping on a collapsible single bed, and enjoying a bathroom to myself except for the fact that that's where our sole washer and (unvented) dryer lived. And it felt normal at the time.

As you advance through medical school/residency, it's going to feel less and less normal. Your peers are going to start enjoying better standards of living, and without a compelling reason not to (marriage, kids, supporting your village in 3rd world country, crippling drug/gambling addiction, an absolute burning unquenchable hatred of medicine) you will likely join them. It's easy not to compete with the trust-fund baby driving a Jaguar and vacationing in Monaco. It's more difficult to resist buying into a comfortably middle-class lifestyle when that's the minimum for everyone else (nurses, docs, most ancillary staff with a bachelors' or better) around you.

It can be done (Medicinesux talks about it a fair amount in his posts in Gen
Residency), but it's not the default and it's not as simple as it sounds. IMO, a very reasonable target would be to try and live a middle-class lifestyle and invest/bank the extra income. Trying to live a working-class lifestyle without one of the above mentioned reasons seems more like an exercise in gratuitous self-denial then a well thought out lifestyle choice.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

There's a pretty big gulf between being a second year medical student and being an attending for many reasons.

The idealism he holds about medicine disappears about the same time as the idealism he holds about helping others and living a minimalist lifestyle. Don't ruin his innocence now.

When it's gone you'll no longer feel as you do now. I wouldn't have believed it if someone had told me that as a 2nd year, so hey, why would I expect you to?

 

[ccfccp]

The idealism he holds about medicine disappears about the same time as the idealism he holds about helping others and living a minimalist lifestyle. Don't ruin his innocence now.

When it's gone you'll no longer feel as you do now. I wouldn't have believed it if someone had told me that as a 2nd year, so hey, why would I expect you to?

What happens if you started out a bit jaded with a snarky wit, and now your brain is slowly crawling out of its head and stabbing people while counting down the last several (six+ weeks worth) of overnight call before throwing my hated pager into the ocean forever?

Is it bedtime yet? Oops... another page. Can I borrow somebody else's idealism?

 

[Flushot]

There's a pretty big gulf between being a second year medical student and being an attending for many reasons. This time of year as an M2 I was studying esoteric crap 14hrs/day for 42 straight days trying to ace Step I, living in a house with 3 other guys, sleeping on a collapsible single bed, and enjoying a bathroom to myself except for the fact that that's where our sole washer and (unvented) dryer lived. And it felt normal at the time.

As you advance through medical school/residency, it's going to feel less and less normal. Your peers are going to start enjoying better standards of living, and without a compelling reason not to (marriage, kids, supporting your village in 3rd world country, crippling drug/gambling addiction, an absolute burning unquenchable hatred of medicine) you will likely join them. It's easy not to compete with the trust-fund baby driving a Jaguar and vacationing in Monaco. It's more difficult to resist buying into a comfortably middle-class lifestyle when that's the minimum for everyone else (nurses, docs, most ancillary staff with a bachelors' or better) around you.

It can be done (Medicinesux talks about it a fair amount in his posts in Gen
Residency), but it's not the default and it's not as simple as it sounds. IMO, a very reasonable target would be to try and live a middle-class lifestyle and invest/bank the extra income. Trying to live a working-class lifestyle without one of the above mentioned reasons seems more like an exercise in gratuitous self-denial then a well thought out lifestyle choice.

The idealism he holds about medicine disappears about the same time as the idealism he holds about helping others and living a minimalist lifestyle. Don't ruin his innocence now.

When it's gone you'll no longer feel as you do now. I wouldn't have believed it if someone had told me that as a 2nd year, so hey, why would I expect you to?

Ok, maybe I went a bit far with the 'living in a studio apartment as an attending'. There are limits and you're right; I won't know until I'm there. Living conditions, I will concede, but why does postponing marriage and/or children seem highly unlikely? Is it just because you're kind of expected to do it?

It would be terrible have have life changing decisions like marrying or having children dictated by peer pressure. This isn't like going to prom; this has serious financial burdens and consequences. Even ActiveDuty talks about how different things would be without children. Would it necessarily better? Well, it doesn't really matter now, but it would be up to him to make that call.

Look, I'm not slamming your decisions and I know my plans may be deviant, but I do find it strange that they are considered 'idealistic'. What is the reality then? Is it what you all seem to have and wish to defend? I'm not attacking here, but I just want to understand.

 

[ccfccp]

Not to take this topic on too far of a tangent, but I think the point is that there is nothing wrong with the idea of wanting to stay single and without kids if that is your objective. There's nothing wrong with waiting for any of that. I think a lot of us in medical school felt the same way. However, it gets really old (at least it did for me) coming home after regular 16+ hour days to a cold and empty apartment. I met a great girl several years ago, we were married in October, and we're really happy together. It's a little frightening how fast these things can change. If you'd have asked me as a 2nd year med student, there's no way I would have seen myself where I am today.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to stay single. I have several resident friends who are. But having a young family helps keep one (at least me) grounded in why I went to medicine in the first place. That's not to say one should hook up just because he/she is lonely, or whatever. Sometimes it just... happens.

 

[WilcoWorld]

I think it's much easier to plan your lifestyle adjustments than it is to plan your family life. Buying a luxury car or a big house - those are conscious choices. Falling in love - that just happens. Yes, the engagement can be prolonged and the kids can be put off. But biology is a ticking clock, and, like disco, ovaries don't age well.

 

[Flushot]

I get what you two are saying. I just never thought of being in a relationship equating to marriage. That's why I think it is relevant to this conversation: marriage is a first and foremost a business and financial contract, is it not?

There are very few single students among my classmates, but the majority are not married or engaged. Not all of the married couples have children either, although I wouldn't have numbers on how many there are. It doesn't seem out of the question to put it all off for more stable years where you simply have more money to play with.

Even then, it's not like not wanting to get married means you'll abandon who you are with. The institution doesn't really guarantee anything at the current divorce rate and should it not work out, that's a pretty hefty bill to add to budget.

Maybe it's still the naive part of me talking, but abstaining from severe commitments while still in loads of debt doesn't sound too extreme.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

I get what you two are saying. I just never thought of being in a relationship equating to marriage. That's why I think it is relevant to this conversation: marriage is a first and foremost a business and financial contract, is it not?

Maybe it's still the naive part of me talking, but abstaining from severe commitments while still in loads of debt doesn't sound too extreme.

I guess we know why you're not married. 🙂

My comments above are not about your choice of single or married, committed or not committed, or having children or not having children. That's an interesting discussion I suppose, but I was mostly referring to your idea of living in a studio and giving all your money to your family. I know plenty of single docs, but I don't know any living in a studio with a roommate to give away or just invest all their money. In fact, as savers go, I'm pretty extreme I've found.

I was also surprised how my thoughts about family changed between 25 and 35. Deployments turned out to be a much better deal than I anticipated when I came home once and one of my children didn't recognize me. It took a year to get that relationship back where I wanted it.

Plus, if you want to put off family until you're financially stable as a doc (say 35-40) you'd best plan on either not having kids or marrying a younger woman. How many kids can you have when you start at 40?

 

[Flushot]

I guess we know why you're not married. 🙂

My comments above are not about your choice of single or married, committed or not committed, or having children or not having children. That's an interesting discussion I suppose, but I was mostly referring to your idea of living in a studio and giving all your money to your family. I know plenty of single docs, but I don't know any living in a studio with a roommate to give away or just invest all their money. In fact, as savers go, I'm pretty extreme I've found.

I was also surprised how my thoughts about family changed between 25 and 35. Deployments turned out to be a much better deal than I anticipated when I came home once and one of my children didn't recognize me. It took a year to get that relationship back where I wanted it.

Plus, if you want to put off family until you're financially stable as a doc (say 35-40) you'd best plan on either not having kids or marrying a younger woman. How many kids can you have when you start at 40?

Yeah, I do concede the point about living conditions. Right now, I'm just mortified at the debt and I do want to help out my parents as soon as I can. I don't think a 1 bedroom apartment that is appropriately furnished is out of the question. I just won't be touring Europe or buying diamond framed trampolines anytime soon (although the possibility of having slam ball in my backyard someday keeps me motivated).

To be honest, the family thing to me is still just an option. I speak generally, since it can go either way for anyone, but it is far from something that must be done sooner or later. If I do want to do it, you're right about timing needing to be right: having a child with someone way younger than me would be the plan. I guess it's part of the differences in men and women that can't be solved with political correctness. If I were a woman, I probably would be approaching this scenario differently.

 

[la gringa]

ah, the perils of being a female dr... i'm 33, don't feel it and not ready for kids. also had health issues last couple of yrs that derailed my whole life. i just pray my ovaries go the route of my mother and aunts!

 

[Slack3r]

Plus, if you want to put off family until you're financially stable as a doc (say 35-40) you'd best plan on either not having kids or marrying a younger woman. How many kids can you have when you start at 40?

Adopting children is also totally out of the question. 🙄

 

[deleted109597]

Adopting children is also totally out of the question. 🙄

Not everyone wants to adopt. If you can propagate your DNA then usually you do.

 

[DrVanNostran]

ah, the perils of being a female dr... i'm 33, don't feel it and not ready for kids. also had health issues last couple of yrs that derailed my whole life. i just pray my ovaries go the route of my mother and aunts!

If it makes any difference, my prayers are with you 🙂

 

[DrVanNostran]

Do a lot of attendings add moonlighting to add a supplemental income? Secondarily, is it pretty easy to add shifts either at work or moonlighting? Student loans, trying to take care of my parents is worrying the heck out of me.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Do a lot of attendings add moonlighting to add a supplemental income? Secondarily, is it pretty easy to add shifts either at work or moonlighting? Student loans, trying to take care of my parents is worrying the heck out of me.

Always easy to add shifts IMO. Even where I moonlit there were hours. At my current job there are always older partners happy to give up their hours.

Honestly, if you dont buy a real nice new car (buy used or a cheaper new car (25k which buys a decent ride). Rent for a year or 2 (if you can) and at that point you will have money. I make a nice living but things that cost me a ton of money are childcare, student loans, and retirement, fixing up my house.

In the end I have money for vacations, eating out, and life's little luxuries.

Now I dont drive a benz or have a million dollar house but its all about my priorities.

 

[Coastie]

If the young folks reading this thread want to be well off, here are two principles to live by:

1) Keep your costs low.
2) Make your money work for you.

In other words, don't be like the OP.

 

[EctopicFetus]

If the young folks reading this thread want to be well off, here are two principles to live by:

1) Keep your costs low.
2) Make your money work for you.

In other words, don't be like the OP.

Coastie, I wouldnt disparage another poster especially someone who likely has more experience than you. Are you married? With kids? If yes then good for you but likely not.

Putting away 20% a month in retirement is the definition of making your money work for you. BTW keeping costs low is relative. He should be commended for donating to charity and putting money away for retirement. Not sure why you would make fun of the guy/gal.

 

[Flushot]

Always easy to add shifts IMO. Even where I moonlit there were hours. At my current job there are always older partners happy to give up their hours.

A few questions: Do you still get the night differential for taking on extra night shifts? Also, is it possible to do only night shifts?

I've always been a little confused about negociating the differential for night shifts.

 

[dchristismi]

Every group is different. My group does not offer a differential for nights, and they are divided up pretty evenly. It's always possible to only work nights.

Gringa, if you want my fertility, you can have it. I'm 34, and am for the forseeable future, happily child-free. They ARE expensive. Perhaps they are worth it, but I don't know if they're for me, and I'm quite ok with that.

Touring Europe can be done surprisingly cheaply - it just depends on your standards. I'm not in the marked for a diamond-studded trampoline, so I can't help you there, but I am headed to London and Edinburgh this summer. Life is short. You make time and funds for your priorities.

 

[Flushot]

Every group is different. My group does not offer a differential for nights, and they are divided up pretty evenly. It's always possible to only work nights.

Gringa, if you want my fertility, you can have it. I'm 34, and am for the forseeable future, happily child-free. They ARE expensive. Perhaps they are worth it, but I don't know if they're for me, and I'm quite ok with that.

Touring Europe can be done surprisingly cheaply - it just depends on your standards. I'm not in the marked for a diamond-studded trampoline, so I can't help you there, but I am headed to London and Edinburgh this summer. Life is short. You make time and funds for your priorities.

Thanks for the response. Looking through the searches, I've seen negotiations for differentials, but I guess I could've figured it was different for each group. I thought about nights only to keep a stable sleep schedule and hoped there would be a nice incentive to taking up a lot of the night shifts.

Haha, I was just talking relatively in terms of the things down the line. 5 years from now, it'll be the usual grind but I dream about having a great house with fun stuff inside and out someday in the future.

 

[la gringa]

danielle, what i fear is having the decision made FOR me... right now, fine as hell w/o kids. i kinda envy my male peers who don't even have to think about it in many regards.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Coastie, I wouldnt disparage another poster especially someone who likely has more experience than you. Are you married? With kids? If yes then good for you but likely not.

Putting away 20% a month in retirement is the definition of making your money work for you. BTW keeping costs low is relative. He should be commended for donating to charity and putting money away for retirement. Not sure why you would make fun of the guy/gal.

Don't worry bout me ectopic. I got thick skin.

And Coastie- I saved 65% of my income one year a few years ago. It really gave my portfolio a good start. But I decided I'd rather save a little less and live it up a little more. You can't take it with you. You've got to find a balance.

 

[SepulvedaMD]

If the young folks reading this thread want to be well off, here are two principles to live by:

1) Keep your costs low.
2) Make your money work for you.

In other words, don't be like the OP.

Funny, I was under the impression that most EPs partly chose their specialty because they work to live not live to work. If you don't enjoy the fruits, what's the point?

Frugality can be pathological.

I, for one, don't want to be 80 with a bunch of cash and no experiences.

BTW, what is "well off" anyway?

Also, if money is most important, perhaps you are in the wrong field. Anyone will tell you that you will not get rich in medicine. Maybe, hedge funds, but not medicine.

 

[EctopicFetus]

A few questions: Do you still get the night differential for taking on extra night shifts? Also, is it possible to do only night shifts?

I've always been a little confused about negociating the differential for night shifts.

My group offers all nights and pays a $40 per hour differential. You get the money for every night hour you work. Depending on where you work you can or can not negotiate it. Where I am now there is no negotiation of this. It is a private small group so things are offered and you can take them as you please.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Don't worry bout me ectopic. I got thick skin.

And Coastie- I saved 65% of my income one year a few years ago. It really gave my portfolio a good start. But I decided I'd rather save a little less and live it up a little more. You can't take it with you. You've got to find a balance.

I know but if you come on here and share some pretty personal details and then someone who has no real experience comes on here taking pot shots it is a little disturbing. I know you can take it but it doesnt make it less wrong, stupid or ignorant.

Honestly, could I save more sure. I live a nice life but there is no helicopter or private jet.

 

[coldweatherblue]

Thanks for posting this information, it is interesting and helpful. I always had the dream of living really cheaply on an attending's budget and saving >60% of my take home for a few years after residency.. but now as a 26 year old who has lived on <$10k a year since i was 18, while people on unemployment have luxuries like, cable.. washing machines.. dishwashers.. reliable transportation.. dental care, etc.. you can be damn sure i'm doing some AK backcountry snowboarding and buying a 993 and maybe a MiG 17 or two as soon as possible. 😀

 

[Coastie]

Don't worry bout me ectopic. I got thick skin.

And Coastie- I saved 65% of my income one year a few years ago. It really gave my portfolio a good start. But I decided I'd rather save a little less and live it up a little more. You can't take it with you. You've got to find a balance.

Sounds like you've got a good balance...and a sick house!

This thread is worthless without pics of that view🙂

 

[Coastie]

I know but if you come on here and share some pretty personal details and then someone who has no real experience comes on here taking pot shots it is a little disturbing. I know you can take it but it doesnt make it less wrong, stupid or ignorant.

Honestly, could I save more sure. I live a nice life but there is no helicopter or private jet.

🙄

 

[Flushot]

My group offers all nights and pays a $40 per hour differential. You get the money for every night hour you work. Depending on where you work you can or can not negotiate it. Where I am now there is no negotiation of this. It is a private small group so things are offered and you can take them as you please.

That's a pretty sweet deal to me. My EM adviser mentioned how common it was for young grads to grind some night years to pay off that debt ASAP and that's what I hope to do. I figure why not do it while I can pull it off with no sweat.

 

[deleted109597]

That's a pretty sweet deal to me. My EM adviser mentioned how common it was for young grads to grind some night years to pay off that debt ASAP and that's what I hope to do. I figure why not do it while I can pull it off with no sweat.

As mentioned before, why pay off student loan debt quickly? You'll burn yourself working 18 shifts a month for a couple years. It is low interest (relative) secured debt that dies with you. I plan on letting my student loans drift into the sunset slowly. I don't plan on buying a Ferrari or anything, but I would tend to think I could invest money and get more than 3.5% and it will do more for me in the long run than not investing it and paying off student loans.

 

[gman33]

As mentioned before, why pay off student loan debt quickly? You'll burn yourself working 18 shifts a month for a couple years. It is low interest (relative) secured debt that dies with you. I plan on letting my student loans drift into the sunset slowly. I don't plan on buying a Ferrari or anything, but I would tend to think I could invest money and get more than 3.5% and it will do more for me in the long run than not investing it and paying off student loans.

The interest rates are a lot higher for grads now.
Pretty sure mine are at 6.8% and there is no longer a way to consolidate them at a lower rate.

That being said, there still isn't a real advantage to paying them off at a super fast rate. If I can earn 6.8% or more, I'd rather have $200k invested that I can access, than $0 student loans and minimal savings.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

The interest rates are a lot higher for grads now.
Pretty sure mine are at 6.8% and there is no longer a way to consolidate them at a lower rate.

That being said, there still isn't a real advantage to paying them off at a super fast rate. If I can earn 6.8% or more, I'd rather have $200k invested that I can access, than $0 student loans and minimal savings.

Good point. I got lucky by graduating in 2004 and getting a ridiculously low interest rate. It is a great feeling to pay off debt but sometimes it may not be the wisest move.

6.8% is no guarantee these days unfortunately, although the market has been doing pretty good lately.

 

[Flushot]

As mentioned before, why pay off student loan debt quickly? You'll burn yourself working 18 shifts a month for a couple years. It is low interest (relative) secured debt that dies with you. I plan on letting my student loans drift into the sunset slowly. I don't plan on buying a Ferrari or anything, but I would tend to think I could invest money and get more than 3.5% and it will do more for me in the long run than not investing it and paying off student loans.

I think for incoming 2015, grad plus is at 7.3%, unless I'm mistaken. Like gman, I'm also at 6.8% for grad plus. The sooner the better.

I don't intend on tacking on extra shifts. If anything, working consistently nights only would make for a better schedule than mixing and not having a family at the moment would mean no one to manage or worry about while in vampire mode.

 

[ucbsmd]

I think for incoming 2015, grad plus is at 7.3%, unless I'm mistaken. Like gman, I'm also at 6.8% for grad plus. The sooner the better.

I don't intend on tacking on extra shifts. If anything, working consistently nights only would make for a better schedule than mixing and not having a family at the moment would mean no one to manage or worry about while in vampire mode.

6.8% Stafford
7.9% Grad Plus 😱

 

[GeneralVeers]

Locked in at 2.8% in 2005, Baby! Our soon-to-be double-digit inflation is going to wipe it out!

 

[Flushot]

6.8% Stafford
7.9% Grad Plus 😱

7.9%??? You've got to be kidding me. As part of 2013, I'm still at 6.8 for grad plus, but yeah, it's only going to get worse.

I can't believe it was that low not that long ago. I hope this makes more sense now why new grads would want to get this off their back ASAP.

 

[la gringa]

i'm same class as Veers, thank GOD....

 

[CestaVie]

I'll probably take some heat for some of the stuff that I am about to say, but here is my goal after I finish residency in a couple of years. As of right now, I have no student loans or car car payment. I plan to work 20-25 shifts a month at 200 or more /hr for 2 yrs and stockpile some money. I never wanted a big house, but will probably live in a very nice apartment. I'm one of the fortunate ones whose parents paid for education and bought me a (really nice) car. I have no kids and, after a failed engagement, am not really looking for a replacement at the moment. For those who are attendings or residents, anyone out there has/had the same plans of making >500k /yr for a couple of yrs busting your balls like you are a resident? Did the plans change when you graduate? Am I placing too much emphasis on money? My goal in life is traveling and saving for retirement. I think working 40-60 hrs/week is very reasonable. That's how much most people work in the real world. My residency has an average of 16 shifts/month at 12 hrs each, and honestly, each month I feel like it's a vacation since we still have 14 days off. Enough babbling for now 🙂

 

[Pinner Doc]

I'll probably take some heat for some of the stuff that I am about to say, but here is my goal after I finish residency in a couple of years. As of right now, I have no student loans or car car payment. I plan to work 20-25 shifts a month at 200 or more /hr for 2 yrs and stockpile some money. I never wanted a big house, but will probably live in a very nice apartment. I'm one of the fortunate ones whose parents paid for education and bought me a (really nice) car. I have no kids and, after a failed engagement, am not really looking for a replacement at the moment. For those who are attendings or residents, anyone out there has/had the same plans of making >500k /yr for a couple of yrs busting your balls like you are a resident? Did the plans change when you graduate? Am I placing too much emphasis on money? My goal in life is traveling and saving for retirement. I think working 40-60 hrs/week is very reasonable. That's how much most people work in the real world. My residency has an average of 16 shifts/month at 12 hrs each, and honestly, each month I feel like it's a vacation since we still have 14 days off. Enough babbling for now 🙂

My general opinion is that if you truly believe in your priorities, anyone else's opinions of such aren't worth very much.

That said, for me, that would be too much work, but like many, I subscribe to the "work to live, not live to work" mentality. I'm also just graduating from residency, so I don't speak from a lot of experience like many others here.

Re: "how much people work in the real world," I have had a "real world" job... and such jobs generally afforded a time for lunch, time to use the restroom, and a much less demanding pace/clientele. That's why I wouldn't compare an ER job at 40-60 hours/week with a 9-5 job at 40+ hours a week.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

7.9%??? You've got to be kidding me. As part of 2013, I'm still at 6.8 for grad plus, but yeah, it's only going to get worse.

I can't believe it was that low not that long ago. I hope this makes more sense now why new grads would want to get this off their back ASAP.

This rise in rates combined with the astronomic rise in tuition (my med school's tuition has gone up 150% in the last decade) is really going to be an issue. Especially if physician incomes go down significantly.

I think the HPSP (military pays for med school) was a bad financial deal for me. Now, with a signing bonus, a monthly stipend that is twice as big, much higher interest rates, and much higher tuition, I suspect it probably isn't such a bad deal. The pay is still quite low for most specialties in the military, and you have the unique hassles of military life (especially the military match) but it might be worth it from a financial aspect these days.

 

[CestaVie]

My general opinion is that if you truly believe in your priorities, anyone else's opinions of such aren't worth very much.

That said, for me, that would be too much work, but like many, I subscribe to the "work to live, not live to work" mentality. I'm also just graduating from residency, so I don't speak from a lot of experience like many others here.

Re: "how much people work in the real world," I have had a "real world" job... and such jobs generally afforded a time for lunch, time to use the restroom, and a much less demanding pace/clientele. That's why I wouldn't compare an ER job at 40-60 hours/week with a 9-5 job at 40+ hours a week.

I agree. I love what I do and the people I work with. I've been told that I'm good at what I do. I've had many real world job too. I'm "only" 28 years old but I've been a waiter, a hotel/restaurant manager, an IT tech, and barista. Comparing to all of those, I wouldn't necessarily say that our job is THAT more physically draining. But that's just me.

In response to a previous post about walking into an empty cold apartment after 12-14 hrs of working, I can totally relate to that... but after trying to fill that void with random hook-ups just left me even more emotionally drained. I am truly happy for those who have found their soul-mates; hopefully that will happen to me as well one day.

 

[fuegofrio17]

Locked in at 2.8% in 2005, Baby! Our soon-to-be double-digit inflation is going to wipe it out!

Yeah, I'm hedged for inflation and the devaluation of the dollar as well. I consolidated in 2005 at a rate of 1.625%. I now wish I took out a 60 year loan instead of a 30 year.

It is really unbelievable how high student loan rates are now considering that the rest of the economy is borrowing at negative real interest rates. We are at historically low interest rates and yet students are getting gouged.

 

[ucbsmd]

Yeah, I'm hedged for inflation and the devaluation of the dollar as well. I consolidated in 2005 at a rate of 1.625%. I now wish I took out a 60 year loan instead of a 30 year.

It is really unbelievable how high student loan rates are now considering that the rest of the economy is borrowing at negative real interest rates. We are at historically low interest rates and yet students are getting gouged.

The reason the rates are so high is Congress was trying to offset the cost of healthcare reform. If student loan "reform" wasn't part of the healthcare bill, then the bill would have never passed due to its astronomical costs.

 

[Flushot]

I agree. I love what I do and the people I work with. I've been told that I'm good at what I do. I've had many real world job too. I'm "only" 28 years old but I've been a waiter, a hotel/restaurant manager, an IT tech, and barista. Comparing to all of those, I wouldn't necessarily say that our job is THAT more physically draining. But that's just me.

In response to a previous post about walking into an empty cold apartment after 12-14 hrs of working, I can totally relate to that... but after trying to fill that void with random hook-ups just left me even more emotionally drained. I am truly happy for those who have found their soul-mates; hopefully that will happen to me as well one day.

Thanks for sharing your story, because I honestly don't believe that everyone will "fall in line" with the marriage/kids deal right away, if at all. This tradition is fading and I actively try to tell my classmates you have options. Don't make such a huge decision because everyone around you might be doing it or family says so.

The entire thing about coming to a cold, empty apartment doesn't make much sense to me either. What about friends? What about existing family? I don't remember being completely alone the moment I start working and now that I'm free to work and live, I should look for another huge commitment as soon as I can?

I respect the decisions others have made since they've shared their stories with us, but don't take it as disrespect that I do not intend to do same.

 

[ccfccp]

Thanks for sharing your story, because I honestly don't believe that everyone will "fall in line" with the marriage/kids deal right away, if at all. This tradition is fading and I actively try to tell my classmates you have options. Don't make such a huge decision because everyone around you might be doing it or family says so.

The entire thing about coming to a cold, empty apartment doesn't make much sense to me either. What about friends? What about existing family? I don't remember being completely alone the moment I start working and now that I'm free to work and live, I should look for another huge commitment as soon as I can?

I respect the decisions others have made since they've shared their stories with us, but don't take it as disrespect that I do not intend to do same.

Whoah! Holy blown out of proportion! I didn't say that marriage is for everybody, and I certainly didn't say run out and get married because you may be lonely. Both of those would be ridiculous statements. Get married if you find someone you love and it's something the two of you want to do. Do it for no other reason.

All I said is that stuff can happen quicker than you think, and it's hard to plan 5-10 years down the road at this stage in your life without things constantly changing. Plans like that tend to be ephemeral and priorities change... Will they change for you? Maybe or maybe not. I'm not you. I, personally, got tired of coming home to an empty apartment, and fortunately enough found a girl I really liked who apparently really liked me. All I can share are my own experiences as someone who was happily single at 26 with no prospects of being otherwise and am now happily married at 29.

I will say, however, that unless you make a HUGE conscious effort during residency, it will be difficult (again, not impossible) to have lots of friends outside of the residency program (due to your hours, flipping nights, call, etc.) You can do it, and some do, but it's hard. Most of my friends outside our program are through my wife, and I can't do a lot of the things they do together because of my schedule. From what I've seen (again this could be different at different programs) it's also hard to "get everybody together" as a residency program. Factor in that someone always has to be manning the department(s), (around) half of the residents are on off-service rotations with a completely different schedules, etc. Also, as you yourself said, lots of people this age are busy with their own new families and have their own commitments outside of the residency. It's certainly not the only option, but it's naive to say that just because the option isn't right for you, it's not what other people want. I always wanted a family, and hopefully that will work out for us when we're ready.

Just a quick little aside to finish up this novella: When I was a first year medical student (on our first day actually), our dean of student life told us something that has always stuck with me. He said, "No one ever looks back from their death-bed and thinks, 'You know, I wish I would have spent more time at work...'" Having seen a lot of people die over this crazy ride through medicine, I have to agree.

If you made it through all that I'm impressed. Sorry if it sounded a little preachy.

[/soapbox]

 

[EctopicFetus]

Locked in at 2.8% in 2005, Baby! Our soon-to-be double-digit inflation is going to wipe it out!

Ha.. me too.. and when I pay for 3 years it drops to 1 7/8%.. with some nice inflation it wont be much at all.

 

[Flushot]

Whoah! Holy blown out of proportion! I didn't say that marriage is for everybody, and I certainly didn't say run out and get married because you may be lonely. Both of those would be ridiculous statements. Get married if you find someone you love and it's something the two of you want to do. Do it for no other reason.

All I said is that stuff can happen quicker than you think, and it's hard to plan 5-10 years down the road at this stage in your life without things constantly changing. Plans like that tend to be ephemeral and priorities change... Will they change for you? Maybe or maybe not. I'm not you. I, personally, got tired of coming home to an empty apartment, and fortunately enough found a girl I really liked who apparently really liked me. All I can share are my own experiences as someone who was happily single at 26 with no prospects of being otherwise and am now happily married at 29.

I will say, however, that unless you make a HUGE conscious effort during residency, it will be difficult (again, not impossible) to have lots of friends outside of the residency program (due to your hours, flipping nights, call, etc.) You can do it, and some do, but it's hard. Most of my friends outside our program are through my wife, and I can't do a lot of the things they do together because of my schedule. From what I've seen (again this could be different at different programs) it's also hard to "get everybody together" as a residency program. Factor in that someone always has to be manning the department(s), (around) half of the residents are on off-service rotations with a completely different schedules, etc. Also, as you yourself said, lots of people this age are busy with their own new families and have their own commitments outside of the residency. It's certainly not the only option, but it's naive to say that just because the option isn't right for you, it's not what other people want. I always wanted a family, and hopefully that will work out for us when we're ready.

Just a quick little aside to finish up this novella: When I was a first year medical student (on our first day actually), our dean of student life told us something that has always stuck with me. He said, "No one ever looks back from their death-bed and thinks, 'You know, I wish I would have spent more time at work...'" Having seen a lot of people die over this crazy ride through medicine, I have to agree.

If you made it through all that I'm impressed. Sorry if it sounded a little preachy.

[/soapbox]

Was I blowing it out of proportion? I just thought I was saying it was merely another option. What happens, happens I guess.

I do believe that anything is on the table, so I'm not sure why you believe I am naive for thinking that since it isn't what I want, it isn't an option. Of course anything could happen. I was drawing from the comments that I'm just a second year and thinking ideally when it really is not that extreme.

I'm not sure what you mean by this conscious effort to make and maintain friends outside of residency or work, but I'll be the judge of how hard it is when I get there. Friends mean a lot to me, in the sense that they're chosen family as opposed to blood ties. If something means that much to you, you can make it work.

I'm glad you figured it out and I apologize for the misunderstanding. You described the situation above as getting old but I guess I should've read that to mean more for you. Not everyone will get tired of being on their own and not everyone will want to live without a family for the rest of their lives either.

 

[dchristismi]

1.6% baby! (And I feel really bad for you guys at those painfully high interest rates.)

And I come home to dogs who are thrilled to see me, cats who don't give a damn, my own space, and peace and quiet. It's certainly not cold unless I forget to turn the AC up, and empty is a state of mind.

My residency buddies were my best friends, and understand me like no other. While I have some very close friends from my pre-residency days, I sort of dropped off the map during it. Of course, once I finished, those friendships were rekindled as if I'd never disappeared once I was done. But being halfway across the country, well... (this was also pre-Facebook, which changes a lot.)