Anesth. rankings??

[navs]

Hi,

I know we have already discussed this a bit, but I am really getting curious about what the rankings of diff. anesth. programs are.

From everyone I know it seems the top programs are: 1. UCSF, 2. Johns Hopkins, 3. Mass. General, 4. Brigham and Womens

Does everyone agree on these?? And if so, what would u guys start ranking after these 4?? Stanford, Duke, etc??

Just trying to get some insight from people who have also interviewed and know anesth. people as well.

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[pags]

Why do you anethesia people give such a crap about rankings? Are you such gunners or that insecure? Gimme a break. Jeez.

 

[Goofy]

Originally posted by pags:
•Why do you anethesia people give such a crap about rankings? Are you such gunners or that insecure? Gimme a break. Jeez. •••


Hi Pags,

Actually it does matter quite a bit. While the market for anesthesiologists is very favorable right now, the choice positions are still quite difficult to obtain. These are the jobs with partenership potential, favorable call schedules, in choice locations. There are a number of groups that only take new recruits from the top 5 programs in the country. As you can see, it is much harder to get a choice spot than the job market might indicate.

For the original poster, there is a lot more to a program than mere reputation. Given a choice of top programs it is equally important to consider training life quality. Hopkins and mass general are notoriously malignant programs that don't necessarily have the repution amongst the inner circle of anesthesiologists that you espouse to them. While you can certainly do much worse than hopkins, it's important to realize that name only goes so far when considering a residency slot, as the small cadre of attendings within a particular specialty are acutely aware of how good an actual training program is. This is because they have trained at these places, and know exactly who is teaching you. My own research indicates that hopkins and mass gen are not necessarily top programs. I can tell you that Penn's anesthesia program is largely considered a top 3 program amongst insiders, and their residents consistently get choice employment with partnership potential.

I would dig deep and look hard into where and what kinds of jobs physicians obtain out of the programs on your list. This is the absolute best meter of how you might do as well. Upper year residents who have recently signed employment contracts are perhaps the best resource. Good luck in your endeavors and I wish you much success.

 

[navs]

Thanks Klebsiella,

I understand Pags annoyance at understanding top programs, but what u mentioned is exactly the reason I brought this up again.

Even when we come out I'm sure u can find a job, and an avg. job in anesth. is still better then most other fields.

BUT to get a good one seems that there is a stress on coming out of a top program, especially if CRNAs start taking more control in the future!!

Good luck to u also.

U mind telling me what u think of other "top programs"?? Like Brigham or UCSF??

Thanks.

 

[rad]

Hey I recently saw a salary survey:

top 20 (us news) anesthesia program grads average: 332,286
Everyone else: 256,434

Also it mentioned that only top twenty grads had positions with the top private and academic groups in all the major cities. everyone else had to settle for va and county hospitals.....


and then I woke up and realized how unbelievably ridiculous all these discussions are

 

[joethestuff]

Hi rad,

Do you remember the date of the US News article you're referring to. I'd love to read it.

My two cents: Vanderbilt really seems to be an up-and-coming sleeper. Could not have been more impressed with the program and the new Chair of the Anest. is a rising star from Hopkins who has big plans to raise the already high national profile of the Dept. and Residency program.

Rarely mentioned on Scutwork, but Vandy has an excellent reputation...

 

[joethestuff]

Oops, just realized when I re-read my post, your comment was tongue-in-cheek.

Anyway, Vandy is Top-15 and climbing!

 

[Jamier2]

Originally posted by rad:
•Hey I recently saw a salary survey:

top 20 (us news) anesthesia program grads average: 332,286
Everyone else: 256,434•••

That's so far off it's not even funny, it's more like 332,296 vs. 256,424.

I absolutely love it when people post these fake surveys. Don't know why, but it's my kind of humor.

 

[Goofy]

Originally posted by rad:
•Hey I recently saw a salary survey:

top 20 (us news) anesthesia program grads average: 332,286
Everyone else: 256,434

Also it mentioned that only top twenty grads had positions with the top private and academic groups in all the major cities. everyone else had to settle for va and county hospitals.....


and then I woke up and realized how unbelievably ridiculous all these discussions are•••

Hi Rad,

Thanks for the info. Unofortunately any information of this kind from US News is empty and meaningless. There are several reputable medical organizations that provide this info. If I can dig up the links I will post it.

I would add that in anesthesia, the main problem isn't necessarily the money. Most jobs NOW pay decently. If you are looking for the truly lucretive practices though, you will need to train at a boys club program. This may sound silly when quoting salaries in the 200 to 300 range, but the potential to make 1/2 million plus with a reasonably good lifestyle still exists in anesthesia. To get these choice spots, a top program is an absolute must.

Best wishes

P.S. I know very little about the brigham program. I reiterate, be careful with hopkins and mass general, they are not widely regarded as top anesthesia programs despite the obvious prestige of their names.

 

[Goofy]

Originally posted by navs:
•Thanks Klebsiella,

I understand Pags annoyance at understanding top programs, but what u mentioned is exactly the reason I brought this up again.

Even when we come out I'm sure u can find a job, and an avg. job in anesth. is still better then most other fields.

BUT to get a good one seems that there is a stress on coming out of a top program, especially if CRNAs start taking more control in the future!!

Good luck to u also.

U mind telling me what u think of other "top programs"?? Like Brigham or UCSF??

Thanks.•••

Hi Navs,

It might help if you indicated your geographical preference. I can tell on the east coast, Penn is a real anesthesia powerhouse. Sinai is probably the best one in NYC. A lot of the prestigious sounding programs aren't nearly as good as the name might imply as they opt to misuse and abuse their residents while offering an inferior didactic program. Be very careful with the name game in anesthesia. I think names are manipulated the most in this field.

 

[Sandpaper]

Damn, I was gonna keep mum, but after seeing the same damn posting over and over from the same clueless people....couldn't help myself. Now listen here, there is no list you chump. And who gives a rip about ranking? Different programs offer different things to different people. Let us consider your laughable "top programs" (UCSF, Hopkins, and MGH)....the common thread amongst these three is that your ass is grass there rookie.

On the interviewing circuit, good programs often mentioned are Duke, Northwestern, Mayo, UVA, Wake Forest, Florida, Michigan, The Brighams, Stanford, Mount Sinai. Nobody talks about Hopkins or MGH when it comes to anesthesia. For people currently interviewing, good programs are those that treat their residents well, have great ancillary staff, great facilities, great teaching, not too much research, and a desirable location. End. Period. Hopkins, MGH, UCSF are miserable places to be....so miserable, none of us applied to those programs. Btw, Penn is weak. Too much research, not enough real-world clinical application. Plus, they think their **** don't stink. Hate places like that.

So there, cut the crap with the ranking. Green-horn.

 

[godfather]

i'm winding down the interview trail and having interviewed at some very selective places and at some not very selective places here is my impression. Generally speaking the bigger the name of the program the harder the residents work. i kid you not, all of the ivy league guys were working 70-90 hours a week vs 50-70 for places like mco, west penn, henry ford. furthermore it seems like no matter what field your in people automatically say the same handful of(mgh,penn,brigham's,...) programs are at the top. To me this is the biggest proof that rankings are total bull**** and are almost totally based on reputation rather than on any objectivity whatsoever. For the most part i'm willing to bet that if you put the same attendings from joe schmoe hospital at mgh, mgh will still be considered high in the rankings and joe schmoe at the bottom. As far as how certain choice jobs are only going to people from a certain training program, i find that very hard to believe with the current shortage of anaesthesiologists. practices and hospitals are so understaffed right now that they'll take you with open arms regardless if you swimminging in from the banana republic or whether your the head honcho at hopkins. in general from what i've observed name programs tend to help if you want an academic position(which in these days nobody wants in anaesthesia anyways since private practice is so much more lucrative) otherwise it really doesn't matter where you train at. having said all of this the larger name programs will usually offer more research opportunities and lastly it does help in stroking those ever so large egos that seem to permeate more in medical students than in other category of living beings.

 

[Goofy]

Originally posted by godfather:
•i'm winding down the interview trail and having interviewed at some very selective places and at some not very selective places here is my impression. Generally speaking the bigger the name of the program the harder the residents work. i kid you not, all of the ivy league guys were working 70-90 hours a week vs 50-70 for places like mco, west penn, henry ford. furthermore it seems like no matter what field your in people automatically say the same handful of(mgh,penn,brigham's,...) programs are at the top. To me this is the biggest proof that rankings are total bull**** and are almost totally based on reputation rather than on any objectivity whatsoever. For the most part i'm willing to bet that if you put the same attendings from joe schmoe hospital at mgh, mgh will still be considered high in the rankings and joe schmoe at the bottom. As far as how certain choice jobs are only going to people from a certain training program, i find that very hard to believe with the current shortage of anaesthesiologists. practices and hospitals are so understaffed right now that they'll take you with open arms regardless if you swimminging in from the banana republic or whether your the head honcho at hopkins. in general from what i've observed name programs tend to help if you want an academic position(which in these days nobody wants in anaesthesia anyways since private practice is so much more lucrative) otherwise it really doesn't matter where you train at. having said all of this the larger name programs will usually offer more research opportunities and lastly it does help in stroking those ever so large egos that seem to permeate more in medical students than in other category of living beings.•••

Obviously there are radically different opinions on this issue. My information comes from several attendings in both academic and non-academic positions. More importantly, my views are based on several friends who recently signed contracts for anesthesia positions within the past 2 months having recently completed their training.

Again, I think it behooves you to contact recent grads from anesthesia programs you are looking into. There are lots of good jobs in anesthesia available, but as I have stated ad nauseum, the real choice positions are much more difficult to obtain, and the program will make a very big difference.

Good luck

 

[Jubal]

First: Johns Hopkins for Anesthesia? Maybe just for REPUTATION.

Second: Certainly some top-research oriented programs would "suck" for the majority of applicants who seek a pretentious place to train that can secure a cozy, highest possible pay(nothing wrong with that), gas-pasing job. However, there's otehr people who are going into Anesthesia not because of the excellent market and cozy life style. Ther are some (few I suppose) that are still interested in the vast research opportunities one has in Anesthesia, as well as being part of an academic, educational system. Sure not all of us can be researches, teachers, nobel prize winners, or simply-stated whatever makes one HAPPY, giving a meaning to our professional life-apart of making money. If making 345k over 257k is important to you, you should have gone to Wall street. Personally, I do not believe that "passing gas" in a private practice for 20 years from now on, even with an ideal family environment is intellectually stimulating enough for me. But someone has to do this...have a NICE "gas-passing" career. (NICE-another word I "like" so much...; ).

Third: Forgive me for my quasi-elitistic rambling.

 

[dingiswayo]

i kid you not, all of the ivy league guys were working 70-90 hours a week ••

my friend is a resident at Penn. doesn't work more than 60 hour per week. call q8, post call day off, and post-post-call mornings off. doesn't sound so bad to me!

 

[godfather]

i just interviewed there about 1 month ago. the residents themselves said they work about 75 to 85 hours per week. usually get in at 6am to set up room and out around 6pm(give or take 1 hour depending on number of perop checks for next day). Thus even if you work mon thru friday and lets say you take friday call your still working 12 x 4(mon - thur) + 24(hours for friday)= 72hrs/wk. thats if you take only 1 call per week. i can't recall, but i think for ca1 the call scedule was like q5 and if that's the case then their easily working around 80 hours per week.