Anesthesia Politics Class

[nopain1234]

Have you guys heard about this class in some CRNA schools? They literally have mock debates by a fake anesthesiologist and CRNA. One of my new hires was telling me about it last week

The fun is just getting started folks

 

[jwk]

Have you guys heard about this class in some CRNA schools? They literally have mock debates by a fake anesthesiologist and CRNA. One of my new hires was telling me about it last week

The fun is just getting started folks

It started many years ago, but has really taken off with the DNP BS. That extra year has absolutely zero clinical content. That's why current CRNAs with master's degrees can "upgrade" online to the DNP.

 

[deleted87051]

Propaganda is now a required course for the DNP degree?

 

[GassYous]

Propaganda is now a required course for the DNP degree?

They have it for the rn too
They teach them that midlevel nurses are just as good if not better than physicians (use those exact words). They teach them that nurses need to "advocate for their patient" against dangerous physicians. There's a ton of propaganda that starts way earlier than for the dnp degree. The goal of nursing leadership is to replace physicians entirely.

 

[coffeebythelake]

They have it for the rn too
They teach them that midlevel nurses are just as good if not better than physicians (use those exact words). They teach them that nurses need to "advocate for their patient" against dangerous physicians. There's a ton of propaganda that starts way earlier than for the dnp degree. The goal of nursing leadership is to replace physicians entirely.

Just imagine a hospital run by nurses and nursing midlevels. Patients will be dying left and right.

 

[deleted941485]

Just imagine a hospital run by nurses and nursing midlevels. Patients will be dying left and right.

Nah. After running a ton of expensive tests and not having the education to figure out what’s going on with the patient. They’ll just discharge them to hospice after giving up. I’m sure the PG scores will be awesome though.

 

[deleted875186]

Have you guys heard about this class in some CRNA schools? They literally have mock debates by a fake anesthesiologist and CRNA. One of my new hires was telling me about it last week

The fun is just getting started folks

This cannot be true.

 

[deleted1130227]

This cannot be true.

sure it can. The job that I used to work at had a CRNA training program that had a few “lectures”on Anesthesiologist/CRNA relations and the history of the profession on how we stole the field because of the economic opportunities that were present.

 

[OptionOffense]

www.anesthetist.org

 

[ryanjmy]

If you’re debating mid levels you’ve already lost. The way to approach this is to educate med students and non anesthesia residents on the difference between our training and mid levels.

Ultimately surgeons will dictate who takes care of their pts in the OR. Almost every one of them rotate through our departments.

 

[nopain1234]

This cannot be true.

Not sure why the CRNA would lie about this

 

[OptionOffense]

If you’re debating mid levels you’ve already lost. The way to approach this is to educate med students and non anesthesia residents on the difference between our training and mid levels.

Ultimately surgeons will dictate who takes care of their pts in the OR. Almost every one of them rotate through our departments.

Hate to break it to you, if it were up to the surgeons this is what they would have.

 

[anbuitachi]

maybe patients one day will also be choosing anesthesiologists like how they choose surgeons

 

[OptionOffense]

maybe patients one day will also be choosing anesthesiologists like how they choose surgeons

They used to do that.

 

[Teillard]

www.anesthetist.org

What was that thing about the definition of insanity? Switching one mid-level for another is just cutting off your nose to spite your face. I get the physician support if it's just a matter of burning down the city as you retreat, but the idea that it won't be the same thing in a generation is just delusional.

 

[OptionOffense]

What was that thing about the definition of insanity? Switching one mid-level for another is just cutting off your nose to spite your face. I get the physician support if it's just a matter of burning down the city as you retreat, but the idea that it won't be the same thing in a generation is just delusional.

That is your opinion. I happened to have a different opinion for plenty of reasons after being in this arena for a while. If you want to talk about it DM me.

 

[nopain1234]

Are we able to increase the class sizes of anesthesia residents?

All programs are pretty much filling now correct?

 

[deleted1130227]

Are we able to increase the class sizes of anesthesia residents?

All programs are pretty much filling now correct?

Great idea. Right up there with slitting one's own throat.

 

[deleted87051]

Are we able to increase the class sizes of anesthesia residents?

All programs are pretty much filling now correct?

The bottle neck is the volume and variety of cases at the training programs so that each resident gets an adequate experience.

 

[nopain1234]

Great idea. Right up there with slitting one's own throat.

Can you expand as to why having more physicians is a bad thing?

 

[GassYous]

Can you expand as to why having more physicians is a bad thing?

Collapsing job market, low pay, loss of autonomy from inability to change jobs, underemployment, etc

 

[nopain1234]

Collapsing job market, low pay, loss of autonomy from inability to change jobs, underemployment, etc

Versus being diluted by nurses altogether?

Why not replace them with well trained physicians

 

[deleted87051]

Can you expand as to why having more physicians is a bad thing?

Check out the EM forum. They have too many graduating residents and too many midlevels.

 

[OptionOffense]

Can you expand as to why having more physicians is a bad thing?

There are enough physicians, not enough MID LEVELS. We need to produce those. But not nursey types. We need AAs to compete with the CRNAS.

 

[Teillard]

There are enough physicians, not enough MID LEVELS. We need to produce those. But not nursey types. We need AAs to compete with the CRNAS.

This demonstrates the point exactly...thanks.

 

[nopain1234]

There are enough physicians, not enough MID LEVELS. We need to produce those. But not nursey types. We need AAs to compete with the CRNAS.

Funny bc I hear there’s an anesthesiologist shortage all the time

 

[deleted87051]

Funny bc I hear there’s an anesthesiologist shortage all the time

There is. But it’s better to be in a shortage if you’re a worker bee. Would NAPA be offering $500k/yr if there wasn’t a shortage? USACS, the EM equivalent of USAP, is not offering $500k for new grad EM docs.

 

[GassYous]

Funny bc I hear there’s an anesthesiologist shortage all the time

Just 5 years ago there was an EM shortage even with all the midlevels. They were printing money on locums. Following the pharmacy playbook, they opened a ton of new programs, graduated a bunch of grads and now their job market is trash and their pay goes down consistently. Not exactly what I want for us.

 

[deleted941485]

Just 5 years ago there was an EM shortage even with all the midlevels. They were printing money on locums. Following the pharmacy playbook, they opened a ton of new programs, graduated a bunch of grads and now their job market is trash and their pay goes down consistently. Not exactly what I want for us.

I think the other allied health professions are basically a warning to all.

 

[nopain1234]

Great idea. Right up there with slitting one's own throat.

Therein lies the conundrum of anesthesiology.

We don’t want too many docs bc it threatens our high salaries and thus have to rely on mid levels for the volume despite the eminent threat of take over.

The paradox continues

 

[kidthor]

Therein lies the conundrum of anesthesiology.

We don’t want too many docs bc it threatens our high salaries and thus have to rely on mid levels for the volume despite the eminent threat of take over.

The paradox continues

To be fair that’s the case with all of medicine - and all jobs of all sorts really, not just us.

 

[nopain1234]

To be fair that’s the case with all of medicine - and all jobs of all sorts really, not just us.

You can’t apply a one size fits all for all specialties regarding midlevels.

There are extremes and anesthesia is probably the worst of them in terms of encroachment and future threat

 

[Twiggidy]

Can you expand as to why having more physicians is a bad thing?

Imagine you live in a city and you're the only person in town that can install an oven. You're doing great. Now imagine they've decide to train 100 more oven installers and they're going to set them up in your town. Now you're screwed.

In a nutshell.

 

[Twiggidy]

Funny bc I hear there’s an anesthesiologist shortage all the time

Let's all be honest. The shortage is in underserved areas and to more accurate, in underserved rural areas. The pay usually isn't that great and more often then not they're places people don't want to live and raise families, so there is a shortage of physicians, usually specialist. In the cities or near cities anesthesiologists are falling off trees, so in that case it become supply vs demand. There are so many around that we can pay them crap (NYC, SoCal, etc)

In the rural areas they're fighting low supply combined with poor payor mixes/mostly medicare, medicaid that also contribute to no one wanting to go work there.

 

[OptionOffense]

Therein lies the conundrum of anesthesiology.

We don’t want too many docs bc it threatens our high salaries and thus have to rely on mid levels for the volume despite the eminent threat of take over.

The paradox continues

AAs

 

[deleted87051]

To be fair that’s the case with all of medicine - and all jobs of all sorts really, not just us.

Apparently there’s also a shortage of 22yo college grads. But the money won’t go far with $6 gas, $4000 rent, and $20 burgers and cocktails.

Behold, the New Starting Salary for Some Graduates Is $100,000

Entry-level professionals in tech, banking and consulting are getting showered with cash.

www.wsj.com

 

[deleted941485]

Apparently there’s also a shortage of 22yo college grads. But the money won’t go far with $6 gas, $4000 rent, and $20 burgers and cocktails.

Behold, the New Starting Salary for Some Graduates Is $100,000

Entry-level professionals in tech, banking and consulting are getting showered with cash.

www.wsj.com

This is what I mean about the labor shortage and the so called wage gains. They are modest if they exist at all and have been eating away with inflation.

 

[deleted87051]

Let's all be honest. The shortage is in underserved areas and to more accurate, in underserved rural areas. The pay usually isn't that great and more often then not they're places people don't want to live and raise families, so there is a shortage of physicians, usually specialist. In the cities or near cities anesthesiologists are falling off trees, so in that case it become supply vs demand. There are so many around that we can pay them crap (NYC, SoCal, etc)

In the rural areas they're fighting low supply combined with poor payor mixes/mostly medicare, medicaid that also contribute to no one wanting to go work there.

There’s a shortage in big cities too. Enough to move the needle just a little in terms of income. It happened 20-25 yrs ago too.

 

[Twiggidy]

And now you have a residency program in Stockton. Why? This same hospital/AMC has been trying to recruit anesthesiologists for YEARS but who the heck wants to live in Stockon? So what you do is get yourself a residency program because a) the labor is cheap and b) easier to get the position filled with all the candidates dying to to anesthesia AND live in California (but again, it's Stockton) I'm sure there will be people who bite on this who will decide to commute from Sacramento or the East Bay but that's a rough life.

 

[deleted87051]

And now you have a residency program in Stockton. Why? This same hospital/AMC has been trying to recruit anesthesiologists for YEARS but who the heck wants to live in Stockon? So what you do is get yourself a residency program because a) the labor is cheap and b) easier to get the position filled with all the candidates dying to to anesthesia AND live in California (but again, it's Stockton) I'm sure there will be people who bite on this who will decide to commute from Sacramento or the East Bay but that's a rough life.

2 newer residencies in the Central Valley. One in Stockton and one in Visalia. Heard through a friend that the attending gig in Visalia pays very well. It does make sense to produce your own anesthesiologists if the area has a chronic shortage. The challenge would be to get the graduating residents to stay.

 

[nopain1234]

AAs

We’ve been talking about AAs for three decades or more. Need a new plan chief

 

[deleted87051]

2 newer residencies in the Central Valley. One in Stockton and one in Visalia. Heard through a friend that the attending gig in Visalia pays very well. It does make sense to produce your own anesthesiologists if the area has a chronic shortage. The challenge would be to get the graduating residents to stay.

Looks like Sutter is also planning to start an anesthesia residency in the Sacramento area. Including Riverside and Thousand Oaks, that’s 5 new programs in the state in a very short period of time.

 

[deleted941485]

Looks like Sutter is also planning to start an anesthesia residency in the Sacramento area. Including Riverside and Thousand Oaks, that’s 5 new programs in the state in a very short period of time.

Wow! At that rate you won’t even need AAs or crnas.

 

[kidthor]

Looks like Sutter is also planning to start an anesthesia residency in the Sacramento area. Including Riverside and Thousand Oaks, that’s 5 new programs in the state in a very short period of time.

Wow - hopefully this new surge of residencies doesn’t cause us to crumble like EM did…

Sutter is a pretty good system, but with Davis there how many new grads does the Sacramento area really need? Are these places starting residencies due to difficulty filling their own employment needs?

 

[OptionOffense]

Wow! At that rate you won’t even need AAs or crnas.

MD salary will be lower than both of the aforementioned. Keep Pumpin' out residents.

 

[deleted941485]

MD salary will be lower than both of the aforementioned. Keep Pumpin' out residents.

MD care. MLP salary. Now that’s value based care!

 

[OptionOffense]

MD care. MLP salary. Now that’s value based care!

In the future, CRNA only care> MD Only care. That's even more value based.

 

[Twiggidy]

Wow - hopefully this new surge of residencies doesn’t cause us to crumble like EM did…

Sutter is a pretty good system, but with Davis there how many new grads does the Sacramento area really need? Are these places starting residencies due to difficulty filling their own employment needs?

There are AMCs in that area that have high turnover

 

[nopain1234]

In the future, CRNA only care> MD Only care. That's even more value based.

That or our salaries equalize

 

[OptionOffense]

I cannot believe how dumb political organizations representing physicians are.