Anesthesiologists Not Necessarily Needed for Propofol

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Med0123

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Interesting article.

PS: canadian resident here and up north, anesthesiologists are never ever needed in the endoscopy suite for sedation, the GI-doc/surgeon sedates the patient using w/e he wants ranging from midazolam to propofol with the assistance of a RN.


http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/812949

SAN DIEGO — Whether propofol is administered by a certified registered nurse anesthetist who is supervised by an anesthesiologist or is unsupervised, the safety record is similar, according to a study conducted at one ambulatory endoscopy center. The finding could have significant cost implications for centers.

Patients tend to express greater satisfaction with propofol because it improves the efficiency of procedures. However, because the drug has a narrow therapeutic window and the potential for deep sedation, its labeling states that it should be administered only by individuals trained in general anesthesiology.

At Digestive Healthcare in Raleigh, North Carolina, propofol was adopted in 2008, said Murtaza Parekh, MD, who is a community gastroenterologist there. Initially, anesthesiologists supervised the certified registered nurse anesthetists. "Over time, as we got more comfortable with propofol, we felt it would be more cost effective to employ a nurse-only model," he told Medscape Medical News. The switch occurred in 2012.

Dr. Parekh and his team conducted a retrospective study comparing the 2 propofol protocols at Digestive Healthcare. He presented the results here at the American College of Gastroenterology 2013 Annual Scientific Meeting.

The researchers evaluated 99,818 consecutive propofol procedures conducted by a certified registered nurse anesthetist. Of these, 70,436 procedures were supervised by an anesthesiologist and 29,382 were not.

All patients had an American Society of Anesthesiologists (ASA) score of 1 to 3.

The researchers analyzed adverse events that occurred during or immediately after the procedure. They compared the frequency of a variety of adverse events with the 2 propofol protocols. There were no procedure-related deaths in either group.

Table. Adverse Events With the 2 Protocols

Event Supervised Administration, n (%) Unsupervised Administration, n (%) P Value
Aspiration 14 (0.020) 8 (0.027) .475512
Desaturation 53 (0.075) 23 (0.078) .87417
Laryngospasm 17 (0.024) 12 (0.041) .158105
Cardiac 14 (0.020) 6 (0.020) .955827
Perforation 8 (0.011) 1 (0.003) .227715
Splenic injury 0 (0.000) 1 (0.003) N/A


The unsupervised protocol seems to be "a more cost-effective means of delivering propofol," said Dr. Parekh. "We were able to reduce the overall cost to patients."

He emphasized that the center had a stringent patient selection criteria, but noted that these results are "certainly applicable to other centers that have the same mix of patients and the same selection criteria."

Because the study was sequential, it is important to be sure that the groups of patients are comparable, said Samir Gupta, MD, from the University of California at San Diego, who attended the presentation. "If the groups are comparable, then it really shows a very low risk of complications" with the unsupervised protocol, Dr. Gupta told Medscape Medical News.

Although complications were rare, Dr. Gupta wondered whether anesthesiologists might be valuable in the case of severe events. Is it possible that severe complications in the study population "might have been prevented if an anesthesiologist had been in the room?" he asked.

Dr. Parekh and Dr. Gupta have disclosed no relevant financial relationships.

American College of Gastroenterology (ACG) 2013 Annual Scientific Meeting and Postgraduate Course: Abstract 1. Presented October 14, 2013.

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"We were able to reduce the overall cost to patients."

i dont see how this would reduce costs to patients since the billing would essentially be the same in this MD-/CRNA+ model? i can see how it could reduce costs to the healthcare delivery system and in theory this could be passed along to the patients, but in reality we dont expect this to be true, right?
 
every CRNA in that study was supervised by the gastroenterologist (or anesthesiologist in the other group) as North Carolina is not an opt out state and CRNAs are prohibited from working independently there.

The gastroenterologists bare the additional malpractice costs associated with supervising the CRNAs in that situation.
 
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There is literature to back anything. You don't really need a GI physician to do an endoscopy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2643440/

Effectiveness of nurse delivered endoscopy: findings from randomised multi-institution nurse endoscopy trial (MINuET)


Results There was no significant difference between groups in outcome at one day, one month, or one year after endoscopy, except that patients were more satisfied with nurses after one day. Nurses were also more thorough than doctors in examining the stomach and oesophagus. While quality of life scores were slightly better in patients the doctor group, this was not statistically significant.

Conclusions Diagnostic endoscopy can be undertaken safely and effectively by nurses.

Soon enough we will have the same nurse doing the endoscopy, the anesthesia, and circulating.
 
It's so easy a robot can do it (Sedasys). Honestly don't give a Sh *t about pushing propofol in GI suite.
 
Anyone who thinks that the primary purpose behind these studies is to decrease patient costs should stop drinking the coolaid.
 
Anyone who thinks that the primary purpose behind these studies is to decrease patient costs should stop drinking the coolaid.

i dont think any of us are arguing that, but it should be pointed out that the premise is flawed, considering they present it as a benefit.
 
Love it when the GI docs "did not disclose any financial information".

I'll be willing to bet they are involved and still involved in some type of company model profit sharing of anesthesia revenues.

In the end it's always about the money.
 
I thought that GI docs use nurses to push drugs so that they can siphon off more of the anesthesia fee and get that 7 figure pay.
 
Summary: We prefer to refer patients to crnas for a kickback rather than to anesthesiologists for no kickback. We will pretend it's about the patient even though the patient doesn't benefit in any way.
 
Just my opinion. But this gi propofol lucrative business will probably end around 2015/16.

When they make anesthesia reimbursement for like eye ball reimbursement ($75-150 per case) instead of the the $300-500/case for gi anesthesia. When that day arrives you will see the gi docs get out of the illegal gi anesthesia kickback business.

Lord knows the OIG is taking their sweet time "clarifying" OIG opinion 12-06 they issued in June 2011 and that the ASA wanted clarification on 02/2012.
 
"We were able to reduce the overall cost to patients."

i dont see how this would reduce costs to patients since the billing would essentially be the same in this MD-/CRNA+ model? i can see how it could reduce costs to the healthcare delivery system and in theory this could be passed along to the patients, but in reality we dont expect this to be true, right?
Thats the same spiel the Sedasys guys keep saying. Yet their business model is a charge per use rather than selling the machines like any other piece of medical equipment out there.
 
It's so easy a robot can do it (Sedasys). Honestly don't give a Sh *t about pushing propofol in GI suite.

Hmmm - I think it's an 8 unit base RVU for a colonoscopy plus 2-4 time units. 10-14 units times your per unit fee and it's real easy to see why some actually DO give a **** about doing GI cases, especially with a good payor mix or lots of volume. 😀

I did 15 GI cases Monday - all private insurance. That's at least 150 units and probably more.
 
It's so easy a robot can do it (Sedasys). Honestly don't give a Sh *t about pushing propofol in GI suite.

There are huge groups on the east coast who's sole existence is staffing GI centers. It's a VERY lucrative business which is about to come to an end.
 
As per this article, it's cheaper for my parents to take a flight to Belgium to get their colonoscopy than get it done at the local hospital.

If you were in charge of the system, how would you change this?
 
Hmmm - I think it's an 8 unit base RVU for a colonoscopy plus 2-4 time units. 10-14 units times your per unit fee and it's real easy to see why some actually DO give a **** about doing GI cases, especially with a good payor mix or lots of volume. 😀

I did 15 GI cases Monday - all private insurance. That's at least 150 units and probably more.

hmmm, doesn't sound like you get paid by the unit... it's more like 3 for routine scopes and 5 for advanced procedures such as ercps. if you have a busy hospital based gi practice and the group does the billing you are right it can be quite profitable-- esp if u are out of network. more and more however, the gi docs scope the pts with good insurance at the office or in gi suites...
 
It's getting really hard to negotiate with stand alone gi centers these days.

Somewhere during the late 90s to early 2000s GI docs started attending these seminars paid by management companies that encourage gi docs to "tap in the ancillary anesthesia revenue".

So you have a whole generation of GI docs who firmly believe they should get a cut of the anesthesia revenue. It's like its ingrained and hardwired into their brain more than any other speciality we anesthesiologists have to work with.

Honestly the ASA should discourage routine use of propofol unless it's medically indicated.

Notice the AANA is completely silent on this matter. Usually the AANA and ASA do coordinate on many financially aspect of anesthesia but on this matter AANA is completely silent on the illegal company model.
 
i dont think any of us are arguing that, but it should be pointed out that the premise is flawed, considering they present it as a benefit.

Perhaps not on this site, but several studies I have read on medical costs have placed 'the cost to the patient' above all else in (purported) importance.



As per this article, it's cheaper for my parents to take a flight to Belgium to get their colonoscopy than get it done at the local hospital.

If you were in charge of the system, how would you change this?

The best part of that article is how they constantly blame doctors for the rising prices. They select an egregious example, then place the blame on all doctors. Yay, media!

Really, the best way to fix the system is to get medical care off the profit motive. That includes drugs, tools, machines, care, insurance...etc etc etc. (However, I doubt this will happen in the near future...)



Ask yourself: why is it that my generic prescription costs $10 for 30 pills, but the name-brand costs $150 for the same amount? They contain the exact same ingredients. Heck, they were even packaged in the same factory and shipped to my pharmacy via the same semi truck. The only difference is that one has the name you see on all those fancy commercials, while the other says "generic".
 
Who sponsored this study? This is hardly an academic topic for a UC GI physician. If they are trying to cut costs they should look at things that actually have a cost difference as opposed to two different groups of people with different credentials billing for the exact same amount.

Nurse endoscopists or colon MRI vs. MD endoscopy for screening would be my topic of choice, maybe an anesthesia group could conduct that study for them?
 
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