Anesthesiology and alternative med

[wolverine1212]

I'm a 2nd yr MD student interested in anesthesia, but I also want to incorporate alternative medicine into my future practice. Does anyone have any insight into any opportunities like this at the residency/fellowship level or and docs that are currently doing this in their practice?

thanks

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[bulletproof]

I'm a 2nd yr MD student interested in anesthesia, but I also want to incorporate alternative medicine into my future practice. Does anyone have any insight into any opportunities like this at the residency/fellowship level or and docs that are currently doing this in their practice?

I am a 3rd year also interested in marrying these two fields, more specifically pain mngmt.( through an anesthesia residency) and alternative medicine. I have heard about some programs at Northwestern in Chicago and at the University of Arizona for fellowships in alternative medicine but am unsure as to how specific they are to the field of anesthesia/ pain. All replies appreciated. thanks.

 

[VolatileAgent]

there's no such thing as "alternative medicine." there is just medicine. it either works, or it doesn't. if it works, then it's not "alternative" and will be incorporated into "mainstream" medicine.

so don't waste your or your patient's time with b.s. that hasn't been proven to do anything. and anesthesia is a field where we definitely don't have time to screw around with such nonsense.

 

[cytoskelement]

hey... i have an interest in alternative medicine as well. I think its "alternative" when studies suggest efficacy but maintstream medicine is reluctant to adopt new policy. my school has a rather well-developed CAMP program and center. i'm hoping to look into it more when time permits... alas, time, sweet time.

as others have suggested, i wouldn't waste your time with alternative medicine - i mean if it were of consequence, the NIH would have done something. Oh wait.new institute or something like that. my bad.

also, an interesting topic with relevance to anesthesiology. it has been shown that peppermint oil introduced via rectum has reduced colonic spasms during colonoscopy similar to systemic admisistration of anticholinergics and glucagon.

Gastrointest Endosc. 2001 Feb;53(2):172-7.

keep in touch. who knows, we may affect some change in the future. (fingers crossed)

 

[bulletproof]

there's no such thing as "alternative medicine." there is just medicine. it either works, or it doesn't. if it works, then it's not "alternative" and will be incorporated into "mainstream" medicine.

so don't waste your or your patient's time with b.s. that hasn't been proven to do anything. and anesthesia is a field where we definitely don't have time to screw around with such nonsense.

Please don't get caught up in semantics. Western medicine has a lousy history of dealing with chronic pain and psychosomatic pathology. There are many practitioners who incorporate modalities such as massage therapy or acupuncture into patient treatment with great success. Such modalities are often listed under the umbrella terms "alternative" or "complimentary" medicine. One such case out of Northwestern last year involved an amennorheic 21-yo refractory to all conventional forms of therapy who experienced her first period three days following her first acupuncture treatment. It is the height of egotism to suggest that anything other than conventional western medicine is B.S. Our purpose in posting our questions here is that generally speaking the majority of posters are reasonable and have real-world experience, and thus might be familiar with developments in this growing field. As to your assertion about anything worth having being aligned to the current model of "medicine", a quick google search might reveal that quite a few allopathic and osteopathic programs are indeed beginning to offer fellowships in this field, which leads me to believe there must be something in it. Who was it that said " the purpose of education is to replace an empty mind with an open one"?

 

[VolatileAgent]

a quick google search might reveal that quite a few allopathic and osteopathic programs are indeed beginning to offer fellowships in this field, which leads me to believe there must be something in it.

yeah, $$$.

pander to public ignorance and misunderstanding of science and you can make big bucks. just because people are willing to pay for it doesn't mean it's good medicine. take your blinders off and know the real reason why med schools and hospitals are getting involved in this area. i'll give you a hint, it has nothing to do with science or good medicine and everything to do with some MBA hospital administrators looking at the bottom line.

sure the conspiracy theorists will abound. there is a heavy skepticism of "mainstream" medicine, that we want to actually keep our patients sick. people still believe silicone breast implants cause autoimmune disorders despite the fact that david kessler (then fda commish) admitted that he made one collossal f*ck up in prematurely releasing that data to the public, which has been subsequently disproven. what about mmr vax? no link to autism can be statistically shown, yet the kooks and the fringe "alternative" endorsees will never relinquish these points.

and, one ammenhoreic patient in a case report? please. i can parade out tons of anecdotes for you. that doesn't make good science. in real medicine, we work on what happens in populations. we extrapolate and test what happens across cohorts to the expected effects in individuals, not the other way around. (if you really are in medical school, you should know that by now.)

involving yourself in the "alternative medicine" movement legitimizes this and plays apologetics to your real medical training. when rigorous science is applied more often than not it turns out to be of little value. complementary medicine is a joke. and, massage (like PT) is not "alternative" by any means (don't know where anyone got that notion).

oh, and the nih funded nccam is a pork-barrel waste of taxpayer money funded to do nothing more than legitimize this quackery. the fact that you even mention this worthless branch of the nih leads me to believe that you've bought the pig in the poke that the alternative medicine camp has offered to you.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/nccam.html

you definitely need to do more homework in this area before you come down so squarely on the side of the snakeoil salesmen. like i said already, if there is legitimate value to a therapy it will be adopted. and it'll simply be just "medicine" with nothing "alternative" about it.

 

[jetproppilot]

yeah, $$$.

pander to public ignorance and misunderstanding of science and you can make big bucks. just because people are willing to pay for it doesn't mean it's good medicine. take your blinders off and know the real reason why med schools and hospitals are getting involved in this area. i'll give you a hint, it has nothing to do with science or good medicine and everything to do with some MBA hospital administrators looking at the bottom line.

sure the conspiracy theorists will abound. there is a heavy skepticism of "mainstream" medicine, that we want to actually keep our patients sick. people still believe silicone breast implants cause autoimmune disorders despite the fact that david kessler (then fda commish) admitted that he made one collossal f*ck up in prematurely releasing that data to the public, which has been subsequently disproven. what about mmr vax? no link to autism can be statistically shown, yet the kooks and the fringe "alternative" endorsees will never relinquish these points.

and, one ammenhoreic patient in a case report? please. i can parade out tons of anecdotes for you. that doesn't make good science. in real medicine, we work on what happens in populations. we extrapolate and test what happens across cohorts to the expected effects in individuals, not the other way around. (if you really are in medical school, you should know that by now.)

involving yourself in the "alternative medicine" movement legitimizes this and plays apologetics to your real medical training. when rigorous science is applied more often than not it turns out to be of little value. complementary medicine is a joke. and, massage (like PT) is not "alternative" by any means (don't know where anyone got that notion).

oh, and the nih funded nccam is a pork-barrel waste of taxpayer money funded to do nothing more than legitimize this quackery. the fact that you even mention this worthless branch of the nih leads me to believe that you've bought the pig in the poke that the alternative medicine camp has offered to you.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/nccam.html

you definitely need to do more homework in this area before you come down so squarely on the side of the snakeoil salesmen. like i said already, if there is legitimate value to a therapy it will be adopted. and it'll simply be just "medicine" with nothing "alternative" about it.

kind of an abrasive post, but I've been rubbed the wrong way myself previously and have fired some bullets to.

Kinda hard to argue Volatile's point that if alternative medicine approaches were efficacious they'd be adopted as "mainstream". Many havent withstood the rigors of duplicating someone's results.
I dont know if acupuncture is considered alternative or mainstream, but I think the s hit works.
My pregnant wife has had incessant nausea (10 weeks)..we've tried everything...phenergan, zofran, etc etc. On a whim I went out and bought those motion sickness bracelets that have a plastic thinghy in the cloth bracelet that puts pressure on the acupuncture wrist sites...has worked better than any med she's taken! Who wouldda thought...six dollar bracelets working better than hundreds of dollars of meds...

 

[militarymd]

Who wouldda thought...six dollar bracelets working better than hundreds of dollars of meds...

Perhaps, the time when you went ahead and used the "alternative" approach coincided with when your wife's persisent nausea was going to go away anyways?

 

[Noyac]

Perhaps, the time when you went ahead and used the "alternative" approach coincided with when your wife's persisent nausea was going to go away anyways?

Oh, sure Military, thats what all you Western Medicine Docs say. Can't you just accept the fact that it works? Just a Joke

I agree, it probably coincides with the time that things are starting to subside. And thats why there are believers out there. Placebo effect is also strong in this area but unlikely in Jet's case since it would have had some effect with the meds as well.
A very good friend of mine is an accupuncturist. Another friend hurt his back and I gave him some Valium and Baclofen. $ dayslater his back was getting better but still troublesome. He went to the accupuncturist and the next day he was feeling better. I told him that this was the course of the back strain and that he would have probably been better with or without the accupuncture. He didn't believe me and is now an accupuncturists dream. It seems to help just like message. You feel better for a while but the effects are short lived, so you have to come back.
We have had alternative medicine here for years. Its called chiropractic.

 

[jetproppilot]

Perhaps, the time when you went ahead and used the "alternative" approach coincided with when your wife's persisent nausea was going to go away anyways?

Nope, Dude. She still has nausea...but notices amelioration of intensity.

 

[jetproppilot]

Perhaps, the time when you went ahead and used the "alternative" approach coincided with when your wife's persisent nausea was going to go away anyways?

Mil, do you think acupuncture is a science or voodoo?

 

[jetproppilot]

Perhaps, the time when you went ahead and used the "alternative" approach coincided with when your wife's persisent nausea was going to go away anyways?

And to be honest, my man, I could care less whether its real or placebo. A less nauseated boss means a happier Jet!! Those acupuncture-based bracelets have made me a Legend of Medicine in my wife's mind....

Jets Wife on the phone with friend: "My OB doctor prescribed all these medicines and none worked...and Bill KNEW what WOULD!!!"

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

 

[militarymd]

Mil, do you think acupuncture is a science or voodoo?

voooooodoooooo

 

[bulletproof]

yeah, $$$.

pander to public ignorance and misunderstanding of science and you can make big bucks. just because people are willing to pay for it doesn't mean it's good medicine. take your blinders off and know the real reason why med schools and hospitals are getting involved in this area. i'll give you a hint, it has nothing to do with science or good medicine and everything to do with some MBA hospital administrators looking at the bottom line.

sure the conspiracy theorists will abound. there is a heavy skepticism of "mainstream" medicine, that we want to actually keep our patients sick. people still believe silicone breast implants cause autoimmune disorders despite the fact that david kessler (then fda commish) admitted that he made one collossal f*ck up in prematurely releasing that data to the public, which has been subsequently disproven. what about mmr vax? no link to autism can be statistically shown, yet the kooks and the fringe "alternative" endorsees will never relinquish these points.

and, one ammenhoreic patient in a case report? please. i can parade out tons of anecdotes for you. that doesn't make good science. in real medicine, we work on what happens in populations. we extrapolate and test what happens across cohorts to the expected effects in individuals, not the other way around. (if you really are in medical school, you should know that by now.)

involving yourself in the "alternative medicine" movement legitimizes this and plays apologetics to your real medical training. when rigorous science is applied more often than not it turns out to be of little value. complementary medicine is a joke. and, massage (like PT) is not "alternative" by any means (don't know where anyone got that notion).

oh, and the nih funded nccam is a pork-barrel waste of taxpayer money funded to do nothing more than legitimize this quackery. the fact that you even mention this worthless branch of the nih leads me to believe that you've bought the pig in the poke that the alternative medicine camp has offered to you.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/nccam.html

you definitely need to do more homework in this area before you come down so squarely on the side of the snakeoil salesmen. like i said already, if there is legitimate value to a therapy it will be adopted. and it'll simply be just "medicine" with nothing "alternative" about it.

...and the link. By the way, yes I am in medical school, and I am familiar with the points you mentioned ( ie. vaccine adjuvants and autism ). As Jet pointed out, there is no need to be so abrasive. We are all professionals or aspiring professionals. It is a shame that our communications cannot be conducted in a more civil manner. At any rate, my original post indicated that I was INTERESTED in the applications of various modalities as they apply to pain management/ medicine. I am not, as you assert, "sold" on anything. BTW Jet, my sister receives acupuncture from her OB at a very reputable chicagoland hospital for pregnancy related nausea, and it works wonders ( yes, yes volatile...I know the plural of anecdote is not fact ). At any rate thanks to all for their input.

 

[jetproppilot]

As Jet pointed out, there is no need to be so abrasive.

Thanks, but thats not exactly what I said. For me to say that would be the pot-calling-the-kettle-black.

 

[bulletproof]

Thanks, but thats not exactly what I said. For me to say that would be the pot-calling-the-kettle-black.

It was not my intention to misconstrue your statements. Point taken.

 

[jetproppilot]

It was not my intention to misconstrue your statements. Point taken.

And no disrespect to you, dude/dudette. Just making a point so I'm not construed as hippocritical.

 

[Dr. J?]

About the chiropractic medicine scene...has anyone seen any data demonstrating efficacy of what they practice? (No really I'm asking...anything)

If no, then why hasn't 'mainstream medicine' run them out of town yet? I mean from my understanding many chiropractors perpetuate the whole vaccines (medicines) are poisons argument - a supremely irresponsible and unprofessional line of argument IMHO.

I hear a chiropractic medicine commercial everyday when I drive to the hospital - "When my little Becky has a cold, society tells us that I should take her to the pediatrician to get some medicine, to get the quick fix....but instead I take my daughter to Dr. X's chiropractic clinic" The commercial goes on to state "we should all get regular spinal examines" - WTF? I challenge anyone to show me how a spinal realignment (*shudder*) can rid a kids body of rhinovirus.

It seems to me that the whole practice is based on fraud (unless someone can refer me to the Journal of E.B.C.M.). I just don't understand how they can still be allowed to continue to practice.

 

[dblr516]

Those are some spirited responses to the topic of alternative medicine. Previously, as a licensed acupuncturist and now a second year medical student, I thought I should add my two cents. I agree that there is still much to be proven as far as legitimacy of complementary therapies, such as acupuncture. A few rotten apples have spoiled the barrel as far as gaining trust from the skeptical medical community. Proclamations such as “acupuncture can cure cancer” and other such unfounded statements will only continue to add fuel to an already volatile subject. But to reference a slanted site such as quackwatch.org won’t help the issue either. There are trials out there that have shown that certain applications of acupuncture show some benefit, which may particularly tie in to Jet’s anecdotal reference. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15266478&query_hl=1
Implying that all those who practice alternative medicine as “snake-oil salesman” is quite offensive.
I’m not up to date with the politics involved with NCAAM but if certain applications of alternative medicine such as in the treatment of PONV is supported by an authority such as the Cochrane Medical Library then perhaps the usefulness of acupuncture for other applications may follow.
Anyways, I think I’ve spent enough time on this topic. Back to studying for my pharm. exam (which btw I am surprised at all the drugs out there which state mechanism of action: “unknown”. but now is not the time or place to bring that up.)