Where do you draw the line? How do you feel about cosmetic procedures? Devocalization? Declawing? Would you perform them?
Where do you draw the line? How do you feel about cosmetic procedures? Devocalization? Declawing? Would you perform them?
Where do you draw the line? How do you feel about cosmetic procedures? Devocalization? Declawing? Would you perform them?
First evolution and creationism and now this? Are we really this bored!?
I'll take the bait. The idea of animal rights as it is currently defined is ridiculous. We cannot ascribe the same set of rights to animals as are generally considered inalienable to humans in western society because animals do not have the reasoning skills to comprehend those rights or the general moral framework to consider the rights of other animals or humans. I realize that not every person has these reasoning skills or morals either, but those people generally, if they act on it, will end up having these rights diminished through incarceration or institutionalization.
Oooo perfect review for my Animal Husbandry exam!! The Welfare and Ethics section...note that there is no 'rights' in that title...
"On admission to membership of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, the new member makes the following declaration:
..my constant endeavour will be to ensure the welfare of animals committed to my care"
Guiding Principles from RCVS Guide to professional conduct
Your clients are entitled to expect that you will - make animal welfare your first consideration in seeking to provide the most appropriate attention for animals committed to your care
Can We Define Animal Welfare?
The Physical Debate
An animal is in a poor state of welfare only when physiological systems are disturbed to the point that survival or reproduction are impaired McGlone, 1993
The Mental Debate
Neither health or lack of stress or fitness is necessary and/or sufficient to conclude that an animal has good welfare. Welfare is dependent on what animals feel
Duncan, 1993
The Naturalist Debate
To promote animal welfare we should raise animals in natural environments and allow them to behave in natural ways
Rollin 1992
Then you can talk about the 5 Freedoms....animal needs, animal welfare science, and ethics being "more than just a feeling..."
Always love a good debate...Back to studying!!!
Oh...and whoever mentioned this being good review for interviews...ding ding ding..at least it was in mine
(Fixed ethical rules place limits on our treatment of animals: there are some things that we are not permitted to do to an animal whatever the circumstances. This idea, of a non-negotiable prohibition, is what people mean by "Animal Rights". But remember there is a range to what people believe are the rights to which animals are due).
Alright, relativists. What inalienable rights should be given to animals?
Alright, relativists. What inalienable rights should be given to animals?
Protection from unjustified pain.
Just as a nitpicking point, would you at all consider the fact that an onychectomy is just that - an amputation of the last phalanx of the toes? It is an extremley painful procedure that, in my opinion, should be banned for cosmetic/lazy purposes (unless the amputation is warranted with something such as a malignant tumor located there, severe infection, or if the toe is not salvageable from a HBC or something). Simply saying "the cat scratches my furniture" or "the cat is scratching my children who are grabbing it by the tail" is a terrible reason to do the surgery and to me would be a huge violation of the veterinary oath. Most likely the problem would NOT be solved with the surgery anyways, or it is a problem that could be helped with a bit of time and money invested into a behaviorist. I have seen many, many delawed cats at the humane society that were abandoned after surgery because they resort to biting since they can't use their claws, or they don't use their litter box anymore, or because they constantly cry because they are having phantom pains. It's already banned here in the bay area, and for good reason. Just wanted to point out that performing uneccessary surgery on a cat on the basis of it not having a home otherwise isn't a good reason to do it if your goal is to promote the anmals' welfare.my opinion on declaws-
if a cat owner comes in and says "my cat is clawing all my furniture" or scratching the husband with hemophilia, and either the vet declaws him or they turn the cat into a shelter,...i'd rather do the surgery and ensure the cat has a home.
How can that be inalienable when justification is completely subjective?
And since when does the law get to decide what procedures we as veterinarians can or cannot do? We are a profession and this topic is something our profession (AVMA) should decide on and regulate, not the public.
Evolution and Creationism argument where? I always love a good laugh. Its one thing to have your own point of view its another when your points can just be silly. Being a science major, Ive always been in this little bubble where I thought every really did believe in the same things I did in regards to this hot subject along with others. Boy was I wrong when I decided to be a TA for a Bio 101 class and thus I found out the 101 ways to avoid to speak my mind to anyone who didnt have much of the same background as I unless brought up in casual conversation.First evolution and creationism and now this? Are we really this bored!?
Just as a nitpicking point, would you at all consider the fact that an onychectomy is just that - an amputation of the last phalanx of the toes? It is an extremley painful procedure that, in my opinion, should be banned for cosmetic/lazy purposes (unless the amputation is warranted with something such as a malignant tumor located there, severe infection, or if the toe is not salvageable from a HBC or something).
Simply saying "the cat scratches my furniture" or "the cat is scratching my children who are grabbing it by the tail" is a terrible reason to do the surgery and to me would be a huge violation of the veterinary oath.
Most likely the problem would NOT be solved with the surgery anyways, or it is a problem that could be helped with a bit of time and money invested into a behaviorist.
. Just wanted to point out that performing uneccessary surgery on a cat on the basis of it not having a home otherwise isn't a good reason to do it if your goal is to promote the anmals' welfare.
I guess that's my view on animal welfare then, it should be for the animal's best interest, and anything that is not necessarily in the best interest of the animal's comfort or wellbeing (well-faring, anyone?) should be carefully looked at and considered. As for animal rights, honestly I am not that well versed, but I do know that I can see both sides with regards to the fact that even if animals can't practice morality, it doesn't necessarily mean they should be denied all rights. We as humans are quite exploitative of animals, and linking back to animal welfare, there are many instances where upholding the best welfare for animals is violated because they have no rights. But that doesn't mean I'm some crazy PETA freak, it just means that although I am not for or supportive of animal rights, it is a bit of a grey area for me, so I'm not going to totally consider animal rights as lunacy.
To suggest that animals have inherent rights, would by definition extend those rights into the 'wild'.
No animal has a right to live (otherwise they couldn't be eaten by a lion).
No animal has a right not to suffer a horrible and painful death (otherwise they couldn't be eaten (alive) by wolves)).
No animals has a right to not reproduce, otherwise they would not be forced to copulate in the wild.
I believe we can afford animals a certain amount of rights in order to protect them from undue suffering.
Correct, which is why I used that all important word "justified". In nature, all those actions are justified. Is it justified for a man to torture an animal for his own pleasure, just because animals have no rights and the man wants to practice his inalienable right to the pursuit of happiness?
The extent of the man's natural right to the pursuit of happiness stops where his legal rights do. He does not have a legal right to "torture" certain animals (that we as humans have deemed capable of feeling and expressing pain) for his own pleasure, just as he does not have a legal right to jerk off in public for the pursuit of happiness.
That's why you have the many other ethical theories such as utilitarianism to help decide what is justified or not. They all revolve around the concept of rights. Earlier you mentioned "inalienable" rights. Well even these basic rights can be taken away from a man if it is justifiable. That doesn't mean they aren't rights anymore.The point of contention, though, is with the word "justifiable." That can either be a matter of personal ethics or a matter of legality. Of course it's easy for most well-adjusted people in our society to agree on the extreme examples like a person setting a cat on fire or throwing a dog off a bridge for no reason. Same with the opposite extreme, an experiment that might be quite painful for some rats or cats or dogs, but if successful could yield some amazing medical breakthrough. Our world quite seldom works in extremes, though. There are shades of grey, and as long as those shades exist you can't say that a right is a right unless it's "justifiable." Then it's not a right anymore but merely a suggestion.
So no, you still aren't saying that animals have rights.
And while we agree on the conclusion, I don't think we will agree on route to get to that conclusion.
I do not believe that anything you said = "Animals have a right to protect them(selves) from undue suffering".
I do believe that we as a society have a responsibility to curtail the actions of other who do things that violate OUR societies accepted norms.
Many religions sacrifice(d) animals - for (arguably) not more then the pleasure that a deranged man gets from torturing an animal (lets assume the pain to the animal is the same in both situations) - but one = OK by societies norms while the other is not.
The rights of the animal are inconsequential;
Yes, and what are the purposes of laws? To protect the rights of others. If animals have no rights, what is the purpose of animal cruelty laws? I don't think it is to simply protect man from having to witness another man torturing an animal.
That's why you have the many other ethical theories such as utilitarianism to help decide what is justified or not. They all revolve around the concept of rights. Earlier you mentioned "inalienable" rights. Well even these basic rights can be taken away from a man if it is justifiable. That doesn't mean they aren't rights anymore.
By and large animal cruelty laws are a matter of preventing violence that is in our society morally inacceptable. They don't exist to protect the animals; they exist because repeated abuse of animals is a signal of psychological problems that can escalate into violent behavior against society. And yes, it is disturbing and could even be seen as threatening to another human being to see a person torturing or abusing an animal, or to see an animal that has been tortured or abused.
In a society like ours, it is justifiable to take those rights away from a person if and only if the person is incapable of exercising said rights without infringing on the selfsame rights of others within the bounds of law and society. If the person is later deemed capable of exercising those rights using moral judgment that fits within the norms and laws of society, the rights are returned to the individual*. That's a matter of individual responsibility and consequence. Animals are not capable of knowing where their own "rights" to life and well-being end with respect to the rights of others or making moral judgments based on that knowledge, so as I previously stated, cannot be afforded rights without that responsibility.
*cases where the individual's right to life was taken away via the death penalty notwithstanding. you can't give that one back.
Simply saying "the cat scratches my furniture" or "the cat is scratching my children who are grabbing it by the tail" is a terrible reason to do the surgery and to me would be a huge violation of the veterinary oath.
@NoImagination your statements in my eyes are relatively contradictory. If animals have no rights (and most importantly no right to be protected from unnecessary harm) that under what basis do we have an obligation to protect their welfare. In some cases this basis is self centered, in that the animals benefit society directly (farm animals and such), but in many cases (such as companion animals) this is not true. Why do vets support euthanizing animals suffering from painful incurable diseases? Why do we run adoption shelters instead of just euthanizing strays? Why is it illegal for me to starve my own dog to death (in many states)?
Why is it illegal for me to starve my own dog to death (in many states)?
I think the issue with the above argument is you could apply it to human rights but it would not fit with how our society views human rights. Humans did not always have the concept of human rights, or at least ones that applied to all humans. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness were only formalized a couple hundred years ago, and are not rights in every country today. So do humans have unalienable rights, or has our society evolved in what are acceptable ways for humans to treat each other? Do we have unalienable rights because we say we do, or because of something inherent in us?
You post serious thoughts now? Since when?
Quiet You. In that case I propose a change of subject. I think asians shouldnt be allowed to vote and blacks should only count for 3/5 of a person. Discuss.
About the declawthing... all I have to say is that if you don't want an animal that scratches, then don't get a cat. Get something else. It's painfully obvious. Billions of cats are going to die regardless because that's how society is and it won't change in my lifetime.
I don't agree with it. Unless there is some magic law that makes de-claws illegal, then I don't have a choice.
As an example, imagine (I do not know if it was true) a time and place when starving an animal was accepted. At that time and place it was not 'animal cruelty', but the norm.
Isn't it still legal to force feed animals for the point of creating fatty liver disease? or is that now banned?
About the declawthing... all I have to say is that if you don't want an animal that scratches, then don't get a cat. Get something else. It's painfully obvious. Billions of cats are going to die regardless because that's how society is and it won't change in my lifetime.
I don't agree with it. Unless there is some magic law that makes de-claws illegal, then I don't have a choice.
I do feel that my options are extremly limited, and I would love another EFFECTIVE solution besides declaw or abandonment. Two years now. 2nd cat for 1 year has actually decreased but not eliminated the issue. BTW, all the damage is by the older cat. We have hundreds of hours of film, because we wanted to be sure the kitten didn't pick up this habit.