Another Adcom, ask me (almost) anything

[hushcom]

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Thanks so much for sticking with this hushcom. Your advice so far has been very helpful.

I want to ask about how a committee will view an applicant who attended a 4-year university but was dropped because of failing grades. I was unsure about my career path and lacked the drive to do well in school. Since then I attended 2 years at a community college and then graduated from a 4-year. I maintained a 4.0 throughout CC and graduated with a 3.7 from the 4-year. I have a 33 MCAT and I have years of EMS experience and volunteer experience as well as other paid EC's to help pay for school.

My question is, will a committee write off my application because of my string of poor grades at my first school or will they try to look more at the upward trend that followed? Also do you have any suggestions for how to portray my dismissal and return to school in as positive a light as possible.

Thank you very much

If your application survives screening it should be fairly easy to look at the overall trend and see what happened. I sometimes actually like to see people who have struggled or even failed and have fought back. It shows some measure of resilience and determination. Compared to someone without that early blemish, however, you are probably looking at a somewhat shorter list of schools where you will be competitive.

My general advice when addressing past shortcomings (and this goes for everyone) is to acknowledge them without dwelling on them. Focus on the fact that you took responsibility, changed your behavior, and have now a more recent and relevant record of academic success.

 

[brood910]

I do think ESL candidates are at a bit of a disadvantage there.

Thanks for the response.

Does this mean you take it into your consideration to understand the low verbal score?

 

[hushcom]

what's your opinion on double majors and a low gpa?

That the applicant traded one mediocre performance for two bad ones.

also, what about repplicants?

There are many of them. Hope they spent their extra year(s) doing something productive. I am amazed at how many people don't bother improving their applications one iota between cycles. Not good, not good.

 

[hushcom]

Thanks for the response.

Does this mean you take it into your consideration to understand the low verbal score?

Yes, although I don't consider an 8 to be very low.

 

[brood910]

Yes, although I don't consider an 8 to be very low.

How about 7?
Sorry for bothering you with these questions.

 

[Chillywilly]

How do you consider interviewees that seem "fake" or disingenuous in person, but the rest of their application is stellar?

 

[Lucca]

@hushcom
What do you think of undergraduate theses? Would you rather a student complete their thesis and then apply or apply while finishing their theses?

 

[hushcom]

How about 7?
Sorry for bothering you with these questions.

This is my own personal system, so take it with a grain of salt.

6 or below: I will not support your candidacy unless you have freed a benevolent killer whale from captivity
7: okay with extenuating circumstances
8: okay
9+: fine with me

 

[hushcom]

How do you consider interviewees that seem "fake" or disingenuous in person, but the rest of their application is stellar?

I don't see fake so much as scripted, which I think is mostly a product of anxiety. Sometimes we do see people who come off as used car salesmen, and they usually get rejected.

 

[hushcom]

@hushcom
What do you think of undergraduate theses? Would you rather a student complete their thesis and then apply or apply while finishing their theses?

I don't care about them at all, other than if they provide an interesting topic for discussion.

 

[V]

Why is the sGPA low? If it's because of C's as a freshman/sophomore and A's in upper level courses as a junior/senior then it shouldn't be much of an issue. If it's due to a bunch of B's it can be a bit more concerning, unless you are at a notoriously difficult undergrad. A high MCAT can mitigate a lot of the perceived risk of taking someone with a low sGPA, so that would definitely play in your favor. If that's the hand you hold right now then that's the hand you will have to play. About the only thing you could add would be some semesters of high quality post-bacc work.



If your cGPA is less than 3.0 you need a post-bacc of some sort, end of story. I am not saying people don't get in with <3.0's, but it's somewhat foolhardy to assume you will have success.



Sometimes there are a string of W's in one semester which relate to some sort of personal tragedy. Those are forgivable. Otherwise I get concerned when I see more than ~2, and it's much better if they happen during freshman/sophomore year. I can make some allowance for those who transfer from CC to a 4-year university, but by the time you are a junior you should have figured out the undergraduate game.



I pay attention to major because it may tell me something about the applicant. Also, our goal is to choose people who we think will make good physicians, not to choose people who won't have a hard time in med school.

With regards to the Ws:

Would someone who was a career changer with 110 credits (pre decision to be a doctor) be looked down upon for having more than 2 Ws ? Would it affect someone negatively who also has 50 subsequent credits (160 total) with a 4.0 GPA in all the pre reqs?

 

[brood910]

This is my own personal system, so take it with a grain of salt.

6 or below: I will not support your candidacy unless you have freed a benevolent killer whale from captivity
7: okay with extenuating circumstances
8: okay
9+: fine with me

Does speaking English as a second language count as an "extenuating circumstance"?

 

[lamborghiniMD]

Do adcom members really check an applicant/interviewee's social media like facebook, instagram, twitter, etc? How about actual med students?
If an adcom member finds some photos of drinking or "sexy selfies" how do they take this into consideration?

 

[GoodGuyGregory]

Do adcom members really check an applicant/interviewee's social media like facebook, instagram, twitter, etc? How about actual med students?
If an adcom member finds some photos of drinking or "sexy selfies" how do they take this into consideration?

And adding to that question: Do adcoms bother google searching applicant names to see what comes up?

 

[hushcom]

Does speaking English as a second language count as an "extenuating circumstance"?

It might. But that won't make it an excuse.

 

[hushcom]

With regards to the Ws:

Would someone who was a career changer with 110 credits (pre decision to be a doctor) be looked down upon for having more than 2 Ws ? Would it affect someone negatively who also has 50 subsequent credits (160 total) with a 4.0 GPA in all the pre reqs?

If nothing else I would like to impress upon everyone that I have many guidelines but relatively few hard rules. Most of the applications I read have zero W's, and a couple are easy to overlook. More than that invites more scrutiny, and I will probably seek additional clarification during the interview.

 

[hushcom]

And adding to that question: Do adcoms bother google searching applicant names to see what comes up?

Not routinely, but that's not to say it doesn't happen. I often search for more info related to organizations or activities that applicants have been involved in. Sometimes applicants disclose some sort of online presence (like a virtually gallery of their artwork or collections of their writing) and I will usually check it out.

There are plenty of horror stories, though. My advice to applicants is to maximize your Facebook privacy settings, untag yourself from anything suspect, delete your Twitter account (seriously, what premed needs a Twitter account?), and just try to lay low until you retire from practice.

 

[AlwaysLoca]

If undergrad experiences seem all over the place (multiple schools, lots of Ws, part time quarters or quarters off), would admitting that those things happened because of a history of depression greatly hurt the applicant?

For people starting down the road to medicine after graduating from undergrad, do prerequisites need to be taken at a 4 year or is a CC ok if that's all that someone can really manage money-wise?

 

[hplssrmantcxox]

Hushcom thanks for your feedback!

I was wondering for a candidate who is all else a qualified applicant by stats (i.e. high GPA, 32+ mcat, average ECs) who received a few interviews (and did fine/well) but had a personal statement that was pretty terrible and generic in terms of content, would that ultimately tank that person's chances at an acceptance post-interview? A lot of people I know for this current applicant cycle seem to be struggling with acceptances and I'm just wondering if it's ultimately because of a bad PS if otherwise they seemed like a fine candidate and did well/fine on interviews?
Could a bad PS really tank your chances of acceptance that much, even after an interview? (I'm not talking about a boring PS or an average PS that can get by - I mean bad content and pretty generic.)

 

[connie95]

I honestly do not think it matters one way or the other.

@hushcom I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that it IS included in sGPA? The reason I ask is because I am trying to raise my sGPA and would be relieved if these PSYC (Brain and Behavior and Physio. Psych. Lab) courses (which I have to take for my major and am currently doing well in) count for the sGPA.

 

[connie95]

.

 

[hushcom]

@hushcom I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that it IS included in sGPA? The reason I ask is because I am trying to raise my sGPA and would be relieved if these PSYC (Brain and Behavior and Physio. Psych. Lab) courses (which I have to take for my major and am currently doing well in) count for the sGPA.

According to AMCAS you are responsible for classifying the courses appropriately and in good faith. If you feel they merit the BCPM designation then do it. I'm just not sure how much it will affect your sGPA or if anyone will care.

 

[hushcom]

Hushcom thanks for your feedback!

I was wondering for a candidate who is all else a qualified applicant by stats (i.e. high GPA, 32+ mcat, average ECs) who received a few interviews (and did fine/well) but had a personal statement that was pretty terrible and generic in terms of content, would that ultimately tank that person's chances at an acceptance post-interview? A lot of people I know for this current applicant cycle seem to be struggling with acceptances and I'm just wondering if it's ultimately because of a bad PS if otherwise they seemed like a fine candidate and did well/fine on interviews?
Could a bad PS really tank your chances of acceptance that much, even after an interview? (I'm not talking about a boring PS or an average PS that can get by - I mean bad content and pretty generic.)

I read a lot of boring personal statements. They are the rule rather than the exception. I am not a primary application screener so I can only imagine what sort of weirdness doesn't make it past the front door. I know when you are struggling to figure things out post-interview it is tempting to pin one's lack of success on a single nebulous factor, but it's rarely that simple and the season isn't over. There are just a lot of qualified people vying for a limited number of positions.

 

[hushcom]

If undergrad experiences seem all over the place (multiple schools, lots of Ws, part time quarters or quarters off), would admitting that those things happened because of a history of depression greatly hurt the applicant?

For people starting down the road to medicine after graduating from undergrad, do prerequisites need to be taken at a 4 year or is a CC ok if that's all that someone can really manage money-wise?

This is going to take some time, which I do not have right now.

 

[deleted407021]

Hello again, doc.

I'm a martial artist. How often do you see applicants who do that sort of thing?

Certainly you wouldn't question Cs in Algebra and Calculus I?

Do you view a strong desire to work rurally as a positive attribute for an applicant?

Do you appreciate the changes which are coming to the MCAT in 2015? Are they reflective of changes in medical education (maybe you know about that), as they claim? Thanks!

 

[johnnycage377]

What's the deal with update letters? Are they really necessary? When are you supposed to send them?

 

[hushcom]

If undergrad experiences seem all over the place (multiple schools, lots of Ws, part time quarters or quarters off), would admitting that those things happened because of a history of depression greatly hurt the applicant?

Depression is a tough one. In reading an application like yours I would find myself trying to piece together when you were depressed, why you were depressed, if you have gotten better, why you have gotten better, and how long it has been since you have gotten better. Medical school is very stressful, and has a tendency to make mental health issues (re)surface. There is usually no good answer, so we just have to weigh everything as best we can and make a decision.

For people starting down the road to medicine after graduating from undergrad, do prerequisites need to be taken at a 4 year or is a CC ok if that's all that someone can really manage money-wise?

A four year would be preferable, although if it's not financially feasible then it's not financially feasible. The basic problem is that we often have no great way of assessing the academic rigor of CC's unless they are local.

 

[hushcom]

I'm a martial artist. How often do you see applicants who do that sort of thing?

On occasion. Unless you have been doing it for a long time and have some trophies I really don't care.

Certainly you wouldn't question Cs in Algebra and Calculus I?

Not the end of the world, but it doesn't fill me with confidence.

Do you view a strong desire to work rurally as a positive attribute for an applicant?

Desire means nothing. Anyone can claim to desire anything. If you have significant experiences that support your desires I look at it favorably.

Do you appreciate the changes which are coming to the MCAT in 2015? Are they reflective of changes in medical education (maybe you know about that), as they claim? Thanks!

Yes and yes.

 

[hushcom]

What's the deal with update letters? Are they really necessary? When are you supposed to send them?

Applicants who are currently enrolled students should forward post-AMCAS transcripts, official or unofficial, whenever they are available. This is especially important for people in post-bacc programs who are relying on a demonstration of academic improvement to bolster their chances. Other than that it simply depends on when you have something worthwhile updating the school about. Manuscripts accepted in peer-reviewed journals are nice. Spending spring break taking blood pressures in Honduras, not so much.

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

How favorably do you view speaking a second language? How much weight can it carry? I am a native English speaker, but I am learning a second language.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

How favorably do you view speaking a second? How much weight can it carry? I am a native English speaker, but I am learning a second language.

To pre-emptively follow up on this, does the language itself matter. I am anticipating Spanish > Chinese, due to future demographic makeup of the United States.

 

[Command]

/

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

Applicants who are currently enrolled students should forward post-AMCAS transcripts, official or unofficial, whenever they are available. This is especially important for people in post-bacc programs who are relying on a demonstration of academic improvement to bolster their chances. Other than that it simply depends on when you have something worthwhile updating the school about. Manuscripts accepted in peer-reviewed journals are nice. Spending spring break taking blood pressures in Honduras, not so much.

Should I send in my spring transcript if I do not have grades yet? I am working full time, but I am taking a couple of classes in case I need to reapply (also because I enjoy them). Could I just tell them I anticipate getting an A?

 

[hbslax4]

I will be applying to med school this coming summer. During my gap year (next year) I have accepted a job as a medical assistant. The job starts in August. Is it appropriate to list that on my application even though I will not have started it yet? Also, my MCAT is in July so by the time I am complete and being reviewed (August/September) I will be well underway with the job. Not
Sure if that makes a difference...

 

[mrh125]

too good 4 u

 

[smallbiz2doc]

Not Hushcom, and just my opinion, but I would not volunteer bankruptcy information in your PS. Your PS is your chance to sell yourself, and including negative information that early in the process would be putting yourself at unnecessary disadvantage. You will want to disclose negative information shortly before the point where it would naturally be discovered so you can control the 'spin' and explain your side of the story before prejudices and assumptions are made. I don't know when or even if your credit score would be required, though I would disclose a bankruptcy filing before your background check, since it's likely it will come up then. And Hushcom's advice to check into your ability to qualify for student loans is absolutely on target. No loans, no med school...

Personally, I'd consider a bankruptcy along the lines of an IA -- as cause for concern that an applicant is perhaps not managing his life well. That's the preconception I'd bring to the table, and one you'd want to be prepared to address.

Thank you both. I am looking for ways to avoid going through with the bk, especially due to the financial aid aspect. This also helped put back into perspective what the PS will really be for, not to go through and explain everything away.

 

[ace12345]

Thanks for doing this. If we are reporting income based on a job we have before school (Semi-nontraditional applicant), should we write to schools explaining that this will not be part of our EFC going forward? I fear that this makes it seem as if the EFC is much larger than it actually is, and possible aid will be reduced as a result.

 

[dorian baltar]

I sometimes read personal statements that basically go "I started down the path to medicine for bad reasons, but then I learned the true meaning of Christmas and now my intentions are pure gold." While I appreciate the candor, it does not necessarily cast the applicant in the best light. I do, however, think it's possible to highlight your personal evolution in a positive manner and without being deceitful.

My PS is going to follow a similar pattern. People in high school told me I was smart and should be a doctor and I making a career decision at 17-18 was too difficult so I just followed what they said. After a year of college, I abandoned medicine as a career choice for 7 years. I did a lot of stuff (worked, lived in another country, went back to school) then realized medicine was actually what I want to do.
Should I not mention my initial "interest" (also read as completely immature decision) in medicine at all or is it ok to use it as a starting point for the self-reflection and experiences that made me realize medicine is what I want to pursue?

 

[knv2u]

If a student enrolls in community college classes during high school prior to matriculating to a four year university, will medical schools recalculate the AMCAS GPA to exclude these if the dual enrollment credits are bringing up the student's GPA? If a student's GPA is a 3.95 with those credits and a 3.85 without them, how will the GPA be viewed and which will have more weight (if it matters)?

Thanks for doing this!

 

[hushcom]

How favorably do you view speaking a second? How much weight can it carry? I am a native English speaker, but I am learning a second language.

Bi- or multilingualism is so common that I hardly notice it. You should not exaggerate your skill, however. Some of my bi- and multilingual colleagues have cold busted applicants who claim a level of proficiency that they do not possess.

 

[hushcom]

oh shiiii, what if our fall grades actually went down a smidgen? Is this something that is not that important if you turn it in, but important if you don't?

Let me clarify, if you are in undergrad I would not bother sending fresh transcripts unless you want to. If you are in a post-bacc or grad program you need forward them whether you want to or not. Some post-baccs do it automatically, others need prodding.

If you graduated from undergrad in May of 2013, and started a 1 year post-bacc in August, and I'm interviewing you in February without any idea how your post-bacc is going, a decision on your application will likely be delayed until we get those fall grades.

 

[hushcom]

Should I send in my spring transcript if I do not have grades yet? I am working full time, but I am taking a couple of classes in case I need to reapply (also because I enjoy them). Could I just tell them I anticipate getting an A?

See post above, and don't anticipate anything.

 

[StraightDave]

Do you feel that the bulk of your applicants are going into medicine mostly because they are gifted in the sciences and/or parents pressured them? At my interviews I found most of my peers to be socially awkward and noticeably insincere/vague about their motives, either that or they were simply cookie cutter and not believable.

 

[hushcom]

I will be applying to med school this coming summer. During my gap year (next year) I have accepted a job as a medical assistant. The job starts in August. Is it appropriate to list that on my application even though I will not have started it yet? Also, my MCAT is in July so by the time I am complete and being reviewed (August/September) I will be well underway with the job. Not
Sure if that makes a difference...

I don't think it gains you very much to list it before you actually start, and if something changes in the meantime you will end up with a discrepancy to explain. You would wait and raise the experience in secondaries and/or interviews. I really don't think it is a big deal either way.

 

[hushcom]

Do you feel that the bulk of your applicants are going into medicine mostly because they are gifted in the sciences and/or parents pressured them? At my interviews I found most of my peers to be socially awkward and noticeably insincere/vague about their motives, either that or they were simply cookie cutter and not believable.

No, the bulk of the people I interview are pretty normal. I'm not at top 5 school, though. Anecdotally I have noticed that quite a few colleagues who trained at top-flight institutions are good people but a little bit odd. When you are painfully smart that seems to come with the territory.

 

[hushcom]

How do you view students e.c.s and what is your take on mine? A lot of premeds go through a mad dash for e.c.s. I've personally done a couple hundred of hours in research and internships. one working for developing solutions to the issues with the New York water supply in the catskill reservoir and I was going to be published but that fell through. One where I worked a global non-profit called "global healthshare" and researched to develop innovative solutions such as solar panels for rural Indian hospitals, food purification techniques to resolve aflatoxin associated issues in food in Uganda. I also set up their websites and polished their research grants (that alone was 5 units of research for two quarters). I was also going to help the professor on his prime research project that involved transplanting an enzyme from tobacco to rice, but no matter how much I followed up he didnt follow through. I also worked part time at cvs (8 hrs a day 3 days a week for a quarter), 8 hrs a day 2 days a week for two quarters at a winery (I basically did generic catering and wine recommendations while trying to find time to study for ochem). I also worked under a cosmetic dentist as a receptionist, took notes for her and helped patients for a nearly a year on and off and did about 40 hrs of generic busy work plant biology research. That was what I did as undergrad and I really didn't get much time to volunteer experience in the medical field until I graduated (I only got time to shadow a psychiatrist, cardiologist, and like one other doctor). Now that I graduated I am working for a gi doc as a volunteer scribe and planning on completing 500 hrs of volunteering with her in the next few months so that will be my e.cs. Is that enough Ecs to show that I was doing stuff? Is it bad that I'm doing volunteering late before I apply this year? (As opposed to several years as an undergrad). I really think that not doing it until i graduated was a good idea as it allows me to focus on what I'm doing and really analyze and try and understand the patients and their pathology, as well as patient-doctor interactions. It was really hard to get the time to fit much in and courses such as organic chemistry required me to spend 6-10 hrs of studying a day. I have a 3.62 gpa and a strong improvement trend as well and I am the first person in my family to graduate from college. For a little bit I also tutored in premed courses and math as well, but I had to stop that. It was also tough balancing school with the responsibilities I did have and I had to cut back to keep my gpa and continue doing well in school.


Sorry that my post is long I wanted to be thorough and get a good answer on this 🙂.

tl;dr

 

[hushcom]

Thanks for doing this. If we are reporting income based on a job we have before school (Semi-nontraditional applicant), should we write to schools explaining that this will not be part of our EFC going forward? I fear that this makes it seem as if the EFC is much larger than it actually is, and possible aid will be reduced as a result.

I'm not a whiz with the financial aid side, but you should feel free to discuss this with the financial aid office at whatever school(s) you are accepted at. They have seen it all before.

 

[mrh125]

Wow, really? It's long because I wanted to clearly explain my own situation. It takes effort to write all of that up as well as read it. It's not just one sided. makes me really wonder what sort of adcom you really are if you can't take the time and patience to answer a very simple question from someone who obviously took a decent amount of effort to explain a very specific situation (if you can't judge and reward people accordingly to the amount of effort they put into the process, what sort of adcom admissions officers are you?!) I will try again, how do you judge e.c.s
Or compare students e.c.s? Does it matter if they didn't do volunteering or research until after they graduated? Does it look worse If a student does just school mostly? (What if the amount of units per quarter is high load)

 

[StraightDave]

No, the bulk of the people I interview are pretty normal. I'm not at top 5 school, though. Anecdotally I have noticed that quite a few colleagues who trained at top-flight institutions are good people but a little bit odd. When you are painfully smart that seems to come with the territory.

Thank you for the reply, I'm hoping I just encountered a few bad apples! There were some normal people (at least what I perceive to be normal), and I definitely think nerves also play a role. Always wondered about that. Appreciate you doing this thread it is great

 

[chillaxbro]

What is the biggest mistake that applicants make?