Another article on supply demand.....

[HappyPharmacist]

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http://www.ajpe.org/view.asp?art=aj7410185&pdf=yes

 

[CUpharmD2013]

http://www.ajpe.org/view.asp?art=aj7410185&pdf=yes

I'm glad that a PharmD from Palm Beach Atlantic University is writing about "The Hazards of Uncontrolled Academic Growth."

 

[homeslice]

I'm glad that a PharmD from Palm Beach Atlantic University is writing about "The Hazards of Uncontrolled Academic Growth."

I thought the same thing. Regardless, the fact that more and more actual articles are coming out about the problem is a step in the right direction (even if a very preliminary one).

 

[gotdrugs]

Regardless, the fact that more and more actual articles are coming out about the problem is a step in the right direction (even if a very preliminary one).

I grew up on a farm.

We had a saying...."the horse is already out of the barn."

It applies here very well.


Unfortunately all of these articles are bout 5 to 7 years too late.

 

[spacecowgirl]

I'm glad that a PharmD from Palm Beach Atlantic University is writing about "The Hazards of Uncontrolled Academic Growth."

I know, right?

I got a listserve email from someone at one of the new CA pharm schools and I wanted to reply with something snarky about how I wouldn't help them and they are doing a disservice to the profession. I didn't though, Christmas spirit and all.

 

[deleted205891]

Here's this article by one of our professors:
http://www.pharmacistactivist.com/2010/July_2010.shtml

I think it's been posted before, but here it is again.

The August issue has some responses. Some people are saying that the "surplus pharmacists" will need to get themselves absorbed into medical home models, just like nurses did. What do you think, feasible? I think only feasible at a nurse's pay.

 

[Passion4Sci]

Nurses receive pretty damn good pay here, so I'd be OK with that.

 

[Farmacist2011]

Nursing is completely saturated as well, despite the myth of "nurse shortage". This is a recent article.

http://www.sfvbj.com/news/2010/dec/20/new-nurses-hiring-dilemma/

2 quotes from article

"Ha, ‘Nursing Shortage' nothing makes me laugh more than this ridiculous statement!"

"I graduated with BSN several months ago, passed the boards, and received my license and still no job. I think we need to get the word out that there is no longer a nursing shortage,"

 

[deleted205891]

Nurses receive pretty damn good pay here, so I'd be OK with that.

I just looked on salary.com for Philadelphia. The average salary it shows for a nurse practitioner is about 93,000. The average salary shown for a clinical pharmacist is about 109,000 (oddly goes up if you just search "pharmacist", so therefore I am not including that figure). Are we as a profession really ready to take a $16,000 pay cut just to "provide more clinical services"? To make this work, that is what will have to happen.

Plus, the NPs have already established themselves, so the pharmacists will have to prove that they're more valuable by working for less money, so that may be another pay cut. An NP studies for around 6 years, right? We are comparing an NP vs. a residency-trained pharmacist, which completed pharmacy school in 6+ years AND has completed a residency. Not good.

But Dr. Hussar brings up a good point in the article. Who can address this? If the ACPE tries to, then the newer schools will sue for conflict of interest (not being allowed to open under the standards that other schools previously did). Only thing I can think of is a document prepared by AACP or another body sent to each interested pharmacy student explaining the future of pharmacy, sort of a disclaimer about pharmacy school. That would discourage students from applying 🙂

 

[Farmacist2011]

My life's dream is to work pharmacy part time, 2-3 days a week and then teach night classes at a local CC, maybe 1 or 2 a semester- general science classes. This is what I'm going on, I'll be able to do this with a Pharm D? I found out the professor of my intro bio class I took at a CC only had a Masters in Biology so isn't a PharmD good enough to teach at a CC?

 

[deleted205891]

My life's dream is to work pharmacy part time, 2-3 days a week and then teach night classes at a local CC, maybe 1 or 2 a semester- general science classes. This is what I'm going on, I'll be able to do this with a Pharm D? I found out the professor of my intro bio class I took at a CC only had a Masters in Biology so isn't a PharmD good enough to teach at a CC?

Masters in bio is different from a PharmD.
Though I saw job ads for PharmDs for teaching pharmacy tech certification courses. You could do that.

 

[phathead]

My life's dream is to work pharmacy part time, 2-3 days a week and then teach night classes at a local CC, maybe 1 or 2 a semester- general science classes. This is what I'm going on, I'll be able to do this with a Pharm D? I found out the professor of my intro bio class I took at a CC only had a Masters in Biology so isn't a PharmD good enough to teach at a CC?

Pharmacy is more chemistry/biochemistry based.

You're talking about an intro to biology course which is classifications, plants, animals, etc. That's training in two different areas of the sciences.

Teaching A&P could be feasible however.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

It amuses me how the academics are 3 years behind everyone else in the real world.

Hopefully they can start putting limits on class sizes or something.

 

[Requiem]

It amuses me how the academics are 3 years behind everyone else in the real world.

Hopefully they can start putting limits on class sizes or something.

It's not that the academics are necessarily behind the times. This isn't the first article written by an academic on the subject, nor will it be the last.

I can guarantee you there a pile of staff pharmacists who have contributed nothing to this subject other than mouth off to their tech or whoever else will listen.

Being behind the times or not actually taking action isn't a problem endemic to academics. I understand you have your beef with your school and profs, but sometimes you're off the cuff for no reason.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

It's not that the academics are necessarily behind the times. This isn't the first article written by an academic on the subject, nor will it be the last.

I can guarantee you there a pile of staff pharmacists who have contributed nothing to this subject other than mouth off to their tech or whoever else will listen.

Being behind the times or not actually taking action isn't a problem endemic to academics. I understand you have your beef with your school and profs, but sometimes you're off the cuff for no reason.

Gimme a break. People like Z and the writer of the Pharmacist Activist were onto this surplus thing late 2007, early 2008. Meanwhile, those in academia were too busy opening new schools and increasing class sizes because there was a paper shortage. And further, it isn't the role of a staffer to sit around and pontificate about the profession and job numbers. That's what academics are bloody supposed to do. And they are still ridiculously behind the times. That Pharmacists' Manpower thingymabobber is done by an academic...and they are trying to tell me there is a significant shortage in WV. Which is a bloody lie. I got a buddy in Huntington, WV, a buddy in Parkersburg, WV, and a buddy in Morgantown that just CAN NOT find a job right now.

 

[phathead]

Gimme a break. People like Z and the writer of the Pharmacist Activist were onto this surplus thing late 2007, early 2008. Meanwhile, those in academia were too busy opening new schools and increasing class sizes because there was a paper shortage. And further, it isn't the role of a staffer to sit around and pontificate about the profession and job numbers. That's what academics are bloody supposed to do. And they are still ridiculously behind the times. That Pharmacists' Manpower thingymabobber is done by an academic...and they are trying to tell me there is a significant shortage in WV. Which is a bloody lie. I got a buddy in Huntington, WV, a buddy in Parkersburg, WV, and a buddy in Morgantown that just CAN NOT find a job right now.

Academia is always slow as hell. They're always too busy patting themselves on the back for being too smart that they resist change. I've had many profs bitch about that over the years.

 

[Requiem]

Gimme a break. People like Z and the writer of the Pharmacist Activist were onto this surplus thing late 2007, early 2008. Meanwhile, those in academia were too busy opening new schools and increasing class sizes because there was a paper shortage. And further, it isn't the role of a staffer to sit around and pontificate about the profession and job numbers. That's what academics are bloody supposed to do. And they are still ridiculously behind the times. That Pharmacists' Manpower thingymabobber is done by an academic...and they are trying to tell me there is a significant shortage in WV. Which is a bloody lie. I got a buddy in Huntington, WV, a buddy in Parkersburg, WV, and a buddy in Morgantown that just CAN NOT find a job right now.

You're confusing the issue. Academics, be it a PharmD or what have you in an academic/professor role, do not open up new schools. This would be the result of administrators and universities recognizing an opportunity for profit.

This similar line of thinking, which you lambast administrators for resulted in the "Wags on every corner" and CVS explosion which created a beast that has fueled these diploma mills. The schools, recognizing huge profits being raked in by these retail pharmacies and loss leaders like walmart still able to operate with $4 rx's, saw a way to make money off marketing to this demand. Pay me $35,000 in tuition for four years, and you'll get a job at the neighbour CVS for $110,000 K a year.

Now you've got individuals who are no different than you or I sitting in a catch 22 where further diluting the profession with these diploma mills is compromising the practice of pharmacy, but drawing attention to it compromises their job. They cannot afford to compromise their job because there aren't jobs elsewhere. I bet during your year long stretch of job hunting had you had a tenured position in a university you'd certainly want to keep it when you saw the new grads shuffling around from job fair to job fair. Publishing and writing articles to the effect of "all of these unis have to stop" isn't exactly the top priority on their minds I'd imagine.

The retail pharmacists didn't scream when Wags and CVS were dropping stores left right and centre. Hell, not only did they not oppose it, everyone went running straight on into the flame. Now, the profs aren't going to shoot themselves in the feet about saturation of the degree.

This whole crisis has been fueled by greed, and now people are left pointing fingers, when it's a useless exercise. We're all guilty.

One of the solutions for American pharmacy I'd imagine would be implementation of a mandatory residency now, to get back some semblance of respect to a profession. Academics can play a huge role here, and seem to support the idea of residencies to students. Again, it's easy to point fingers and say why aren't the wags pharmacists pushing residencies down students throats. But this isn't the point. The point was you lash out at people, groups of people in particular, when the blame is well shared by all and we've created this monster.

 

[phathead]

You're confusing the issue. Academics, be it a PharmD or what have you in an academic/professor role, do not open up new schools. This would be the result of administrators and universities recognizing an opportunity for profit.

This similar line of thinking, which you lambast administrators for resulted in the "Wags on every corner" and CVS explosion which created a beast that has fueled these diploma mills. The schools, recognizing huge profits being raked in by these retail pharmacies and loss leaders like walmart still able to operate with $4 rx's, saw a way to make money off marketing to this demand. Pay me $35,000 in tuition for four years, and you'll get a job at the neighbour CVS for $110,000 K a year.

Now you've got individuals who are no different than you or I sitting in a catch 22 where further diluting the profession with these diploma mills is compromising the practice of pharmacy, but drawing attention to it compromises their job. They cannot afford to compromise their job because there aren't jobs elsewhere. I bet during your year long stretch of job hunting had you had a tenured position in a university you'd certainly want to keep it when you saw the new grads shuffling around from job fair to job fair. Publishing and writing articles to the effect of "all of these unis have to stop" isn't exactly the top priority on their minds I'd imagine.

The retail pharmacists didn't scream when Wags and CVS were dropping stores left right and centre. Hell, not only did they not oppose it, everyone went running straight on into the flame. Now, the profs aren't going to shoot themselves in the feet about saturation of the degree.

This whole crisis has been fueled by greed, and now people are left pointing fingers, when it's a useless exercise. We're all guilty.

One of the solutions for American pharmacy I'd imagine would be implementation of a mandatory residency now, to get back some semblance of respect to a profession. Academics can play a huge role here, and seem to support the idea of residencies to students. Again, it's easy to point fingers and say why aren't the wags pharmacists pushing residencies down students throats. But this isn't the point. The point was you lash out at people, groups of people in particular, when the blame is well shared by all and we've created this monster.

Mandatory residencies are probably... five-ten years out. It was a topic I brought up at each of the schools I had interviewed at (all major unis) and they all expected to add something very similar to that implemented by the class of 2020 at the latest.

Differentiation among pharmacists, much the way of physicians, will happen.

 

[tungsten87]

You're confusing the issue. Academics, be it a PharmD or what have you in an academic/professor role, do not open up new schools. This would be the result of administrators and universities recognizing an opportunity for profit.

This similar line of thinking, which you lambast administrators for resulted in the "Wags on every corner" and CVS explosion which created a beast that has fueled these diploma mills. The schools, recognizing huge profits being raked in by these retail pharmacies and loss leaders like walmart still able to operate with $4 rx's, saw a way to make money off marketing to this demand. Pay me $35,000 in tuition for four years, and you'll get a job at the neighbour CVS for $110,000 K a year.

Now you've got individuals who are no different than you or I sitting in a catch 22 where further diluting the profession with these diploma mills is compromising the practice of pharmacy, but drawing attention to it compromises their job. They cannot afford to compromise their job because there aren't jobs elsewhere. I bet during your year long stretch of job hunting had you had a tenured position in a university you'd certainly want to keep it when you saw the new grads shuffling around from job fair to job fair. Publishing and writing articles to the effect of "all of these unis have to stop" isn't exactly the top priority on their minds I'd imagine.

The retail pharmacists didn't scream when Wags and CVS were dropping stores left right and centre. Hell, not only did they not oppose it, everyone went running straight on into the flame. Now, the profs aren't going to shoot themselves in the feet about saturation of the degree.

This whole crisis has been fueled by greed, and now people are left pointing fingers, when it's a useless exercise. We're all guilty.

One of the solutions for American pharmacy I'd imagine would be implementation of a mandatory residency now, to get back some semblance of respect to a profession. Academics can play a huge role here, and seem to support the idea of residencies to students. Again, it's easy to point fingers and say why aren't the wags pharmacists pushing residencies down students throats. But this isn't the point. The point was you lash out at people, groups of people in particular, when the blame is well shared by all and we've created this monster.

you make some excellent points here, one of the better posts I've read recently. I have been completely shocked by how little most pharmacy students know about the profession, job description, job market, etc. It seems many people are just after the money and job security that they here about. My father tells me that whenever he mentions that I'm in pharmacy school to colleagues they always tell him how it's a "sure thing" or a "golden ticket"... how uninformed they are.

Unfortunately, many of the better applicants who actually do the research will probably avoid pharmacy because it really is becoming a poor business decision and bite the bullet/go to med school. This means poorer applicants overall and further deterioration of the profession... remember that this career does not generally recruit leaders. I'm at a serious crossroads myself and have thought about dropping out multiple times this semester and might actually do it. How would it look for a student with straight A's (only one semester done so far but still..)at a top uni drop out because the job market is so bad? I get sick to my stomach whenever I'm busting my ass studying and the thought that I may not get a position I'm interested crosses my mind. Don't give this BS about entitlement either because I did four rough years at a university and sinking 85k and four more years into this just seems like a horrible idea to me.

These schools are selling a false dream to uninformed students and it's really becoming quite pathetic. I have a lot of thinking to do over this winter break..

 

[Quiksilver]

All this talk makes me happy that as the Class of 2011... the class who has to deal with a very bad job market. I don't know what is worse, trying to go find a job now, or doing a residency and hoping that things will turn around in 2 years when I am done. Whats to say things won't get worse in the next two years.

What a change from 4 years ago.

 

[owlegrad]

Unfortunately, many of the better applicants who actually do the research will probably avoid pharmacy because it really is becoming a poor business decision and bite the bullet/go to med school. This means poorer applicants overall and further deterioration of the profession... remember that this career does not generally recruit leaders. I'm at a serious crossroads myself and have thought about dropping out multiple times this semester and might actually do it. How would it look for a student with straight A's (only one semester done so far but still..)at a top uni drop out because the job market is so bad? I get sick to my stomach whenever I'm busting my ass studying and the thought that I may not get a position I'm interested crosses my mind. Don't give this BS about entitlement either because I did four rough years at a university and sinking 85k and four more years into this just seems like a horrible idea to me.

These schools are selling a false dream to uninformed students and it's really becoming quite pathetic. I have a lot of thinking to do over this winter break..

Don't do it friend! It may seem rough right now, but it's not as bad as you think. Hang in there, don't give up, etc. If you ever need someone to talk to please message me/give me a call.

The second statement I take issue with. I hope you are not talking about our school (I don't think you are), because no one here has ever promised me an easy road and if someone here has made such a claim to you, I would love to know who it was.

 

[RX CARE]

I say make the pharm.D a 3-year didactic program, make the 4th year a mandatory residency year, and turn up the heat on that Naplex to a pass rate of about 60%.....see how all that stuff fixes itself in just less than 5 years

 

[tungsten87]

Don't do it friend! It may seem rough right now, but it's not as bad as you think. Hang in there, don't give up, etc. If you ever need someone to talk to please message me/give me a call.

The second statement I take issue with. I hope you are not talking about our school (I don't think you are), because no one here has ever promised me an easy road and if someone here has made such a claim to you, I would love to know who it was.

I am absolutely not talking about our school. The dean made it clear at orientation how bad the job market is getting (I think he scared the crap out of a few students), and multiple teachers have also brought this up throughout the semester.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

You're confusing the issue. Academics, be it a PharmD or what have you in an academic/professor role, do not open up new schools. This would be the result of administrators and universities recognizing an opportunity for profit.

This similar line of thinking, which you lambast administrators for resulted in the "Wags on every corner" and CVS explosion which created a beast that has fueled these diploma mills. The schools, recognizing huge profits being raked in by these retail pharmacies and loss leaders like walmart still able to operate with $4 rx's, saw a way to make money off marketing to this demand. Pay me $35,000 in tuition for four years, and you'll get a job at the neighbour CVS for $110,000 K a year.

Now you've got individuals who are no different than you or I sitting in a catch 22 where further diluting the profession with these diploma mills is compromising the practice of pharmacy, but drawing attention to it compromises their job. They cannot afford to compromise their job because there aren't jobs elsewhere. I bet during your year long stretch of job hunting had you had a tenured position in a university you'd certainly want to keep it when you saw the new grads shuffling around from job fair to job fair. Publishing and writing articles to the effect of "all of these unis have to stop" isn't exactly the top priority on their minds I'd imagine.

The retail pharmacists didn't scream when Wags and CVS were dropping stores left right and centre. Hell, not only did they not oppose it, everyone went running straight on into the flame. Now, the profs aren't going to shoot themselves in the feet about saturation of the degree.

This whole crisis has been fueled by greed, and now people are left pointing fingers, when it's a useless exercise. We're all guilty.

One of the solutions for American pharmacy I'd imagine would be implementation of a mandatory residency now, to get back some semblance of respect to a profession. Academics can play a huge role here, and seem to support the idea of residencies to students. Again, it's easy to point fingers and say why aren't the wags pharmacists pushing residencies down students throats. But this isn't the point. The point was you lash out at people, groups of people in particular, when the blame is well shared by all and we've created this monster.

So all of that and you're saying that people in academia either have no professional introspection and/or are greedy.

Ok. I agree with that.

 

[owlegrad]

I am absolutely not talking about our school. The dean made it clear at orientation how bad the job market is getting (I think he scared the crap out of a few students), and multiple teachers have also brought this up throughout the semester.

Yeah that's my experience, and I figured yours was as well. Glad to know they ain't lying to you underclassman. 😉

 

[blueclassring]

It seems the best course of action at this point is to pay off student loans as quickly as possible, and hold on to that job because hundreds of graduates will be looking for jobs next year.

We can't stop these schools from opening up; they are so profitable.

 

[pharm B]

Mandatory residencies are probably... five-ten years out. It was a topic I brought up at each of the schools I had interviewed at (all major unis) and they all expected to add something very similar to that implemented by the class of 2020 at the latest.

Differentiation among pharmacists, much the way of physicians, will happen.

The framework is definitely already in place with all the BPS-recognized specialties. I'm surprised by the number of bright-eyed optimists I've run into in person, who still aren't really quite aware of what we're facing, and we're still years out.

People in the Class of 2011 will be interesting to follow in the coming months.

 

[Cloud 9]

Question...If residency becomes mandatory by 2020, how about the people who graduated recently and/or in the past who chose not to do one? They can't make everyone do a residency, so wouldn't the older grads who didn't do one be at a disadvantage? Is that what people want?

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Question...If residency becomes mandatory by 2020, how about the people who graduated recently and/or in the past who chose not to do one? They can't make everyone do a residency, so wouldn't the older grads who didn't do one be at a disadvantage? Is that what people want?

They'd just be grandfathered in. Experience trumps paper in many cases. A guy with a BPharm and 15 years of experience will get a job over a PharmD with a residency unless the person doing the hiring is a ****ing idiot.

 

[Cloud 9]

They'd just be grandfathered in. Experience trumps paper in many cases. A guy with a BPharm and 15 years of experience will get a job over a PharmD with a residency unless the person doing the hiring is a ****ing idiot.

oh ok..lol..good. yeah those who have been around longer should get the job before a recent grad.

 

[deleted205891]

Question...If residency becomes mandatory by 2020, how about the people who graduated recently and/or in the past who chose not to do one? They can't make everyone do a residency, so wouldn't the older grads who didn't do one be at a disadvantage? Is that what people want?

People will be grandfathered in, but I have been told by some places that they will view applicants with one more positively than applicants without one and just staffing experience.

 

[Quiksilver]

People will be grandfathered in, but I have been told by some places that they will view applicants with one more positively than applicants without one and just staffing experience.

Well lets be honest here someone with years of staffing experience may not be up to date on current practices per se. Also many of them don't even know what pubmed is.

 

[rxlea]

Well lets be honest here someone with years of staffing experience may not be up to date on current practices per se. Also many of them don't even know what pubmed is.

I think this depends on the institution, though. At a large teaching hospital, I think it is safe to assume that pharmacists are fairly up to date on "current practices". But, could you elaborate on your comment?

 

[rph3664]

They'd just be grandfathered in. Experience trumps paper in many cases. A guy with a BPharm and 15 years of experience will get a job over a PharmD with a residency unless the person doing the hiring is a ****ing idiot.

I've been trying to tell myself that for the past 9 months.

 

[rph3664]

Question...If residency becomes mandatory by 2020, how about the people who graduated recently and/or in the past who chose not to do one? They can't make everyone do a residency, so wouldn't the older grads who didn't do one be at a disadvantage? Is that what people want?

10 or 15 years ago, there was discussion about making a Pharm.D. mandatory, and all the tens of thousands of B.Sc.Pharms shot that down very rapidly.

 

[apteryx]

which now begs the question: is anyone seriously considering another health discipline after finishing pharm school? (i.e. NP, PA, MD/DO, etc.)

****disclaimer: my intention was not to turn this into a "anything you can do I can do better" thread with regards to a health profession. any deterioration of this topic was not intended.

 

[Quiksilver]

I think this depends on the institution, though. At a large teaching hospital, I think it is safe to assume that pharmacists are fairly up to date on "current practices". But, could you elaborate on your comment?

I don't know about that. In my experience, its quite the opposite. They aren't interested in being "clinical." There is a resistance to pick up things like vanco dosing or warfarin adjusting. It may be the hospitals that I've seen but once you are in that dispensing orle, very few have any interest in doing some of the stuff that you were trained to do in school. It becomes more of a hassle.

Now I am sure there are institutions where this is not the case but this is my experience. People naturally move towards complacency given the option.

 

[rxlea]

I don't know about that. In my experience, its quite the opposite. They aren't interested in being "clinical." There is a resistance to pick up things like vanco dosing or warfarin adjusting. It may be the hospitals that I've seen but once you are in that dispensing orle, very few have any interest in doing some of the stuff that you were trained to do in school. It becomes more of a hassle.

Now I am sure there are institutions where this is not the case but this is my experience. People naturally move towards complacency given the option.

Sounds like it may just be your experience (others probably experience the same), but I have had the opposite experience. The pharmacists I have worked with now and in the past (even in retail) like to stay up to date on current therapies and regularly read journal articles and publications on hospital pharmacy. Then again, my institution is really big on evidence based medicine and we are sometimes using new and rare therapies. The medical residents and docs are pretty good about educating our pharmacists on new approaches and vice versa. Some of the clinical specialists (like hem/onc and transplant) regularly give talks to docs and residents on topics in their respective specialties.

 

[Theta16]

This article from The American Journal of Pharmaceutical Education (AJPE) has a bit more empirical evidence to back up its claim that the demand for pharmacists peaked in 2006.

 

[quartel]

http://www.ajpe.org/view.asp?art=aj7410185&pdf=yes

if this has been posted already I apologize in advance.

 

[aussiepharmer]

http://www.ajpe.org/view.asp?art=aj7410185&pdf=yes

if this has been posted already I apologize in advance.

My response to the part of this article is that it's actually a GLOBAL problem w/ regards to the surplus issue. There's a massive oversupply of pharmacists in AU, NZ(?), UK(?), South Korea, Canada(?), etc. as well.

 

[jyso]

I remember when there was a shortage of pharmacist and companies would try to bribe pharmacist to sign on with their company by giving them $20-30K sign on bonuses or even buying cars (if they signed a contract for X amount of years).... and this was only 3-4 years ago. ... How times have changed.

Only a couple of years ago companies would be fighting and trying to entice you to work for them, but now a days it's the opposite. Pharmacists are trying to convince the companies to hire them, and alot of companies have started becoming very VERY selective on who they hired.... Im just hoping that as the economy improves, so will the availability of positions....

 

[Electrode]

I remember either AACP, ACPE, or APhA published an article/report with similar concern last week or so. Can't remember which one.

It's definitely a good step in recognizing the problem (of pharmacy school explosions). But it will be a much better step if something is done to stop it ASAP.

I propose they grant ACPE the ultimate power to shut down as much programs as it would take to reverse this problem. Mostly the new programs/schools, perhaps. I don't think the potential side-effects of doing so will really outweigh this current mess.

 

[R2pharmD2]

Look, I don't doubt that the job market for pharmacists isn't what it used to be. I'm just as convinced it's going to get worse, thanks to all of the new schools, before it gets better. It sucks, but people act like having to compete for jobs, or taking a job in some place other than their dream city is the end of the world. It's not. The people who put the effort in to show up to school/work everyday and kick ass will be fine and those who don't will struggle.

We also have to consider the fact that many of the people who will be graduating from pharmacy school in the future wouldn't have even been accepted in the past. It stands to reason that these less qualified candidates, the ones who only made it in as a result of the over expansion of pharmacy programs, will be less competitive for pharmacist jobs. Of course there will be exceptions, but won't the less qualified candidates, by and large, be the ones struggling to find jobs?

 

[quartel]

It's supply and demand r2pharmd. Just remember this.

You will always be worse off no matter how good you are if there is a huge supply of graduates. Since there is so many pharmacists, as a pharmacy owner I can hire you for lower wages. Why? Because you don't, there are plenty of applicants for the job that will. That's supply and demand in a nutshell.

This is bad for everybody except the schools (in the short term) and the pharmacy owners.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Since another thread on this article has been posted in the last week, I'm merging the two threads.

 

[R2pharmD2]

It's supply and demand r2pharmd. Just remember this.

You will always be worse off no matter how good you are if there is a huge supply of graduates. Since there is so many pharmacists, as a pharmacy owner I can hire you for lower wages. Why? Because you don't, there are plenty of applicants for the job that will. That's supply and demand in a nutshell.

This is bad for everybody except the schools (in the short term) and the pharmacy owners.

I agree with everything you said, but I was only addressing the fact there will still be jobs, even if they're less than ideal. The nightmare scenario where qualified pharmacists are filling up the unemployment offices is unlikely, but I would say that lower wages are a real possibility. I'm not suggesting that a surplus isn't a bad thing, because there's no way around the fact that it hurts all of us. The question is how and to what extent.

 

[343533]

I say make the pharm.D a 3-year didactic program, make the 4th year a mandatory residency year, and turn up the heat on that Naplex to a pass rate of about 60%.....see how all that stuff fixes itself in just less than 5 years

It's not fair to destroy the lives of so many just because you are worried that the field is too saturated. Make people more informed if that's the case. Aren't we living in a time that there are job shortages everywhere? This will probably pass.

But don't just make it that difficult for no reason other than to make more students fail. What about the people who take loans to go through school? The survival might depend on it. Parents might be working overtime as we speak to ensure their children get into the school of their dreams. My parents have saved for years. If I got into pharmacy school and flunked the licensing exam because all the idiots in the profession were too greedy, how is that just?

 

[Passion4Sci]

It's not fair to destroy the lives of so many just because you are worried that the field is too saturated. Make people more informed if that's the case. Aren't we living in a time that there are job shortages everywhere? This will probably pass.

But don't just make it that difficult for no reason other than to make more students fail. What about the people who take loans to go through school? The survival might depend on it. Parents might be working overtime as we speak to ensure their children get into the school of their dreams. My parents have saved for years. If I got into pharmacy school and flunked the licensing exam because all the idiots in the profession were too greedy, how is that just?

If you had the drive and determination your parents did to help you (or pay entirely for) your pharmacy school, then you wouldn't flunk the "spiced up" NAPLEX, so your hypothesis is moot.

We don't need tougher licensure exams. We need tougher admissions standards. We need the PCAT to not be a frakking joke.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

We need the PCAT to not be a frakking joke.

It's a scaled test graded by percentiles. It's relative difficulty is moot.