Another (different) MD vs DO

[gdfernan]

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Stop the flaming right now because this is different

I was wondering why there are so many new DO schools coming up compared to new MD schools. Given that the facilities at both seem to be the same, I would assume that setting up an MD school would cost the same as setting up a DO school. In fact, DO may cost more due to OMM teaching resources. Is it easier to get DO accreditation compared to MD?

 

[JGimpel]

Stop the flaming right now because this is different

I was wondering why there are so many new DO schools coming up compared to new MD schools. Given that the facilities at both seem to be the same, I would assume that setting up an MD school would cost the same as setting up a DO school. In fact, DO may cost more due to OMM teaching resources. Is it easier to get DO accreditation compared to MD?

More DO schools require more janitors. Please see the thread below:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=565169

 

[Bacchus]

Stop the flaming right now because this is different

I was wondering why there are so many new DO schools coming up compared to new MD schools. Given that the facilities at both seem to be the same, I would assume that setting up an MD school would cost the same as setting up a DO school. In fact, DO may cost more due to OMM teaching resources. Is it easier to get DO accreditation compared to MD?

Yes.

 

[Mehd School]

There have been a few MD's over the past couple years. Two in michigan, maybe?

 

[Ost3oclast]

More DO schools require more janitors. Please see the thread below:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=565169

Exactly.....I hypothesis that soon, janitors will push DO's out of the market, as they are MUCH more proficient at the job.

 

[cliquesh]

Stop the flaming right now because this is different

I was wondering why there are so many new DO schools coming up compared to new MD schools. Given that the facilities at both seem to be the same, I would assume that setting up an MD school would cost the same as setting up a DO school. In fact, DO may cost more due to OMM teaching resources. Is it easier to get DO accreditation compared to MD?

Yea, it's easier to get a DO school accredited than an MD school. The AOA for the last decade or so has had an expansion initiative. Their goal is/was to increase the number of DOs to increase their mainstream acceptability and political power. I think they have succeeded, but the expansion now, in my opinion, is getting out of hand.

 

[DocEspana]

As I post every few months... it might be worth looking at the number of schools actually set to open in the near future and that have opened recently.

2-3 DO schools are expected to open in the next 2 years (TouroCOM Middletown, WisconsinCOM possibly a NewMexicoCOM)

11-14 MD schools will open in the next 2 years (Mayo AZ, UCMerced, UCRiverside, Northern California CoM, Frank Netter School @ Quinnipiac*, Central Michigan CoM, Western Michigan @ Kalamazoo, Oklahoma U @ Tulsa, Temple @ Pittsburgh**, King College VA, UNTHSC MD School. Along with UTexas, UHouston, and Palm Beach FL as schools that may be done in the next 2 years or longer)

Its not like its been a bad last 3 years for MD schools either. 6 DO schools opened since 2010 and 5 MD schools opened in that same time frame.

There is *NOT* a difference in ease of accreditation. The people who say that are not lying, they are not wrong (well.. they might be), but they are mis-characterizing the difference. The reason for the difference in the early 2000's in growth is two fold. 1) The AAMC was strictly against expansion of schools for a long time and only had a blueprint for expansion created a few years ago, maybe 5 or 6. The AOA was for expansion from the late 90's and have benefited from it. 2) Both AOA and ACGME have research requirements, but the ACGME requirements are tougher. As such, they require schools that have pre-existing large research departments to be able to have the required research capacity off of the bat. This then becomes a monetary/resource issue as research does bring in grant money, and many schools became held up in the debate over how to divide grant money and facility usage between the medical school and the sponsoring school. The AOA has a much more lax requirement, which allows for schools without much research to get a school (As the medical school would be expected to create enough research in-house to fulfill the requirements) and if the school is self-sufficient of the mother institution for research it can proceed forward claiming 100% of the grant money without much grumbling from he sponsoring school. Point #1 is concrete and provable. Point #2 is the common gossip among school deans and others who would know more than me on that matter.

*God I love the name of this school

** Temple is in Philly. So this is extra funny for me

 

[Ost3oclast]

New Mexico COM? No way!? Wow that woulda been nice to apply to this year....

 

[Temperature101]

As I post every few months... it might be worth looking at the number of schools actually set to open in the near future and that have opened recently.

2-3 DO schools are expected to open in the next 2 years (TouroCOM Middletown, WisconsinCOM possibly a NewMexicoCOM)

11-14 MD schools will open in the next 2 years (Mayo AZ, UCMerced, UCRiverside, Northern California CoM, Frank Netter School @ Quinnipiac*, Central Michigan CoM, Western Michigan @ Kalamazoo, Oklahoma U @ Tulsa, Temple @ Pittsburgh**, King College VA, UNTHSC MD School. Along with UTexas, UHouston, and Palm Beach FL as schools that may be done in the next 2 years or longer)

Its not like its been a bad last 3 years for MD schools either. 6 DO schools opened since 2010 and 5 MD schools opened in that same time frame.

There is *NOT* a difference in ease of accreditation. The people who say that are not lying, they are not wrong (well.. they might be), but they are mis-characterizing the difference. The reason for the difference in the early 2000's in growth is two fold. 1) The AAMC was strictly against expansion of schools for a long time and only had a blueprint for expansion created a few years ago, maybe 5 or 6. The AOA was for expansion from the late 90's and have benefited from it. 2) Both AOA and ACGME have research requirements, but the ACGME requirements are tougher. As such, they require schools that have pre-existing large research departments to be able to have the required research capacity off of the bat. This then becomes a monetary/resource issue as research does bring in grant money, and many schools became held up in the debate over how to divide grant money and facility usage between the medical school and the sponsoring school. The AOA has a much more lax requirement, which allows for schools without much research to get a school (As the medical school would be expected to create enough research in-house to fulfill the requirements) and if the school is self-sufficient of the mother institution for research it can proceed forward claiming 100% of the grant money without much grumbling from he sponsoring school. Point #1 is concrete and provable. Point #2 is the common gossip among school deans and others who would know more than me on that matter.

*God I love the name of this school

** Temple is in Philly. So this is extra funny for me

Wow... Over 10 more schools in 3 years! Are they gonna expand residency as well? I am predicting that the admission standards will go down. (3.5 gpa and 28 mcat for MD....3.3 and 24 mcat for DO). You forget Liberty University. The DO expansion is getting out of hands. Liberty University... Really!

 

[Goro]

Having seen the process in action, I can tell you that the MD schools are under a much more rigorous controlling authority than COCA is. the latter is crackign down. Having met witht he people running MarionCOM, they're under a lot more pressure to get things done correctly than when my program started, especially in documenting things.

Stop the flaming right now because this is different

I was wondering why there are so many new DO schools coming up compared to new MD schools. Given that the facilities at both seem to be the same, I would assume that setting up an MD school would cost the same as setting up a DO school. In fact, DO may cost more due to OMM teaching resources. Is it easier to get DO accreditation compared to MD?

 

[FakeEmpire]

This article talkes about the increase in both (MD and DO)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/education/15medschools.html?_r=0

The article states more new medical school will open in the next few years than since the 1960's and 70's. AAMC wants a 30% increase.

My opinion is that American medical schools are so highly regarded that you have to do it right if at all and the demand just hasn't been there before.

 

[MedPR]

Stop the flaming right now because this is different

I was wondering why there are so many new DO schools coming up compared to new MD schools. Given that the facilities at both seem to be the same, I would assume that setting up an MD school would cost the same as setting up a DO school. In fact, DO may cost more due to OMM teaching resources. Is it easier to get DO accreditation compared to MD?

This isn't different at all.

 

[DocEspana]

Wow... Over 10 more schools in 3 years! Are they gonna expand residency as well? I am predicting that the admission standards will go down. (3.5 gpa and 28 mcat for MD....3.3 and 24 mcat for DO). You forget Liberty University. The DO expansion is getting out of hands. Liberty University... Really!

Liberty has had no mention for the last year and a half. And was taken off the list of proposed medical schools. So I assume its not happening.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Liberty has had no mention for the last year and a half. And was taken off the list of proposed medical schools. So I assume its not happening.

This makes me happy.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Wow... Over 10 more schools in 3 years! Are they gonna expand residency as well? I am predicting that the admission standards will go down. (3.5 gpa and 28 mcat for MD....3.3 and 24 mcat for DO). You forget Liberty University. The DO expansion is getting out of hands. Liberty University... Really!

I will predict that the admissions standards will not go down at all.

 

[MedPR]

I will predict that the admissions standards will not go down at all.

👍

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[abolt18]

Is the supposed new LECOM branch in Provo, UT not really for sure? LECOM sure seem to think it is.

 

[gyngyn]

11-14 MD schools will open in the next 2 years (Mayo AZ, UCMerced, UCRiverside, Northern California CoM, Frank Netter School @ Quinnipiac*, Central Michigan CoM, Western Michigan @ Kalamazoo, Oklahoma U @ Tulsa, Temple @ Pittsburgh**, King College VA, UNTHSC MD School. Along with UTexas, UHouston, and Palm Beach FL as schools that may be done in the next 2 years or longer)

There is zero chance that Merced will be a medical school in two years.

 

[NurWollen]

Is the supposed new LECOM branch in Provo, UT not really for sure? LECOM sure seem to think it is.

Not to mention the suucom that bears no relation to suu.

 

[NurWollen]

11-14 MD schools will open in the next 2 years (Mayo AZ, UCMerced, UCRiverside, Northern California CoM, Frank Netter School @ Quinnipiac*, Central Michigan CoM, Western Michigan @ Kalamazoo, Oklahoma U @ Tulsa, Temple @ Pittsburgh**, King College VA, UNTHSC MD School. Along with UTexas, UHouston, and Palm Beach FL as schools that may be done in the next 2 years or longer)

There is zero chance that Merced will be a medical school in two years.

Why not? I thought it was further along than UCR.

 

[MedPR]

Is the supposed new LECOM branch in Provo, UT not really for sure? LECOM sure seem to think it is.

The article about LECOM in UT indicated it would be a site for education of current LECOM students. It's more likely to be a hospital affiliate (for OMS3/OMS4) than an entirely new campus.

 

[darklabel]

This article talkes about the increase in both (MD and DO)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/education/15medschools.html?_r=0

The article states more new medical school will open in the next few years than since the 1960's and 70's. AAMC wants a 30% increase.

My opinion is that American medical schools are so highly regarded that you have to do it right if at all and the demand just hasn't been there before.

Kid got in with a 3.3 and isn't an URM? Seriously?

Also, the NYTimes kind of casts a negative light into Osteopathic schools.

 

[Ost3oclast]

Also, the NYTimes kind of casts a negative light into Osteopathic schools.

Why do you say that? I didnt read anything negative.

 

[darklabel]

This makes me happy.

Nope, they've recently asked for accreditation in 2012

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...eges-of-osteopathic-medicine-and-campuses.pdf

 

[NurWollen]

Why do you say that? I didnt read anything negative.

Well, the only mention of DO schools in the entire article is that the students premed advisor said he should only apply to osteopathic schools. The article is about medical school expansion, and yet completely fails to mention any of the new DO schools in an article about medical school expansion. He implication could be inferred that DO schools aren't real med schools. I'm not deeply offended but the article should have mentioned the half-dozen or so medical schools that have opened around and since the time TCMC opened.

 

[darklabel]

Well, the only mention of DO schools in the entire article is that the students premed advisor said he should only apply to osteopathic schools. The article is about medical school expansion, and yet completely fails to mention any of the new DO schools in an article about medical school expansion. He implication could be inferred that DO schools aren't real med schools. I'm not deeply offended but the article should have mentioned the half-dozen or so medical schools that have opened around and since the time TCMC opened.

Exactly, I don't take offense either, but it would've been nice to include osteopathic schools in expansion as a "blurb" instead of "Oh you have a low GPA, apply Osteopathic (aka, backup)." Which is something that should be squashed.

I don't understand the AOA insistance of keeping DO and MD "separate but equal" besides the allusion of power. The old DO philosophy has changed and been incorporated somewhat into Allopathic curriculum. Both DO and MD have nearly identical coursework and yet they must be kept separate.

Ahh well, its late and I'm feeling cranky. I hate MD vs DO threads.

 

[NurWollen]

Exactly, I don't take offense either, but it would've been nice to include osteopathic schools in expansion as a "blurb" instead of "Oh you have a low GPA, apply Osteopathic (aka, backup)." Which is something that should be squashed.

I don't understand the AOA insistance of keeping DO and MD "separate but equal" besides the allusion of power. The old DO philosophy has changed and been incorporated somewhat into Allopathic curriculum. Both DO and MD have nearly identical coursework and yet they must be kept separate.

Ahh well, its late and I'm feeling cranky. I hate MD vs DO threads.

Then again, at least the premed advisor didn't tell the kid he needed a 3.9/35 to get in anywhere. A lot of advisors think that way and probably would have told them to apply to janitorial school.

 

[Dharma]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE0-ozjC744[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Ost3oclast]

Well, the only mention of DO schools in the entire article is that the students premed advisor said he should only apply to osteopathic schools. The article is about medical school expansion, and yet completely fails to mention any of the new DO schools in an article about medical school expansion. He implication could be inferred that DO schools aren't real med schools. I'm not deeply offended but the article should have mentioned the half-dozen or so medical schools that have opened around and since the time TCMC opened.

Aaahhh ok. I see your point. It happens in those kind of articles more than you think. I found a Forbes article written awhile back that was titled "osteopath vs doctor" that basically inferred that DO's were still literally incompetent physicians. He also said that according to vitals.com all DO schools were given a 1 star rating for quality (not true I checked). He later retracted then edited the article after outrage from DO students and even officials at the AOA. Still stupid that people wont even acknowledge the profession. Makes me a little nervous that the bias against the profession is even worse than I thought.

 

[darklabel]

Aaahhh ok. I see your point. It happens in those kind of articles more than you think. I found a Forbes article written awhile back that was titled "osteopath vs doctor" that basically inferred that DO's were still literally incompetent physicians. He also said that according to vitals.com all DO schools were given a 1 star rating for quality (not true I checked). He later retracted then edited the article after outrage from DO students and even officials at the AOA. Still stupid that people wont even acknowledge the profession. Makes me a little nervous that the bias against the profession is even worse than I thought.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/sciencebiz/2010/10/27/osteopaths-versus-doctors/

Dear lord this gave me a laugh. Besides the bias in residency I wouldn't worry about a lack of patients. The man clearly did no research and did a follow up article but I really don't care to read it. I would never base how good a doctor is on the last 2 letters of his name and the article has IMGs as superior to DOs simply for the last 2 letters. He also fails to realize that it is the individual states and AOA that do not wish to grant DOs the title of MD because of the separate but equal baloney (which I have to agree with).

It did honestly give me a good laugh tonight though.

 

[Ost3oclast]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/sciencebiz/2010/10/27/osteopaths-versus-doctors/

Dear lord this gave me a laugh. Besides the bias in residency I wouldn't worry about a lack of patients. The man clearly did no research and did a follow up article but I really don't care to read it. I would never base how good a doctor is on the last 2 letters of his name and the article has IMGs as superior to DOs simply for the last 2 letters. He also fails to realize that it is the individual states and AOA that do not wish to grant DOs the title of MD because of the separate but equal baloney (which I have to agree with).

It did honestly give me a good laugh tonight though.

Yeah man I couldn't believe that one hahaha I'm surprised you found that so quickly. As long as I'm treated by a doctor at a hospital (MD/DO) I have no problem. However, I guess some other people think differently. Meh

 

[MedPR]

Can't believe this thread has turned into serious conversation.

 

[darklabel]

Yeah man I couldn't believe that one hahaha I'm surprised you found that so quickly. As long as I'm treated by a doctor at a hospital (MD/DO) I have no problem. However, I guess some other people think differently. Meh

Yeah, according to Winged Scapula, an attending, there are a select few patients that will pay attention to that and only want to be seen by people who come from "elite schools". Those are usually the ones you want to avoid.

Also I'm a Google fiend. I don't take anything SDN says without research and Google Chrome helps that. I usually source my stuff so that my posts are actually credible. Makes me feel like less of a Pre Med peon.

Can't believe this thread has turned into serious conversation.

 

[Ost3oclast]

Can't believe this thread has turned into serious conversation.

Hahaha yeah that was an unexpected turn!

 

[NurWollen]

Yeah, according to Winged Scapula, an attending, there are a select few patients that will pay attention to that and only want to be seen by people who come from "elite schools". Those are usually the ones you want to avoid.

Also I'm a Google fiend. I don't take anything SDN says without research and Google Chrome helps that. I usually source my stuff so that my posts are actually credible. Makes me feel like less of a Pre Med peon.

Reminds me of a comment I read on yelp when helping my wife find an OB... one woman liked a small practice because she got so see the same "caring MD" every time and that she specifically sought an MD 'after the DOs failed her.' It's funny , because anther patient could just as easily say she sought a DO because the MD's failed her. It's absurd to think you can correlate that kind of thing based on MD vs DO. Oh well, she could just as easily have insisted on seeing a homeopathic non-nurse midwife. I'm not going into medicine for the money but somehow when I am bringing home 15/k a month I don't think I'll care if a handful of patient spurns me because of the letters after my name.

 

[MedPR]

Reminds me of a comment I read on yelp when helping my wife find an OB... one woman liked a small practice because she got so see the same "caring MD" every time and that she specifically sought an MD 'after the DOs failed her.' It's funny , because anther patient could just as easily say she sought a DO because the MD's failed her. It's absurd to think you can correlate that kind of thing based on MD vs DO. Oh well, she could just as easily have insisted on seeing a homeopathic non-nurse midwife. I'm not going into medicine for the money but somehow when I am bringing home 15/k a month I don't think I'll care if a handful of patient spurns me because of the letters after my name.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

Ha, that NY Times article is disappointing. It simply ignored osteopathic medical schools existence in the context of medical school expansion in the US. That is pretty pathetic.

I have read that Forbes debacle before...some pretty uneducated folks out there.

 

[Ost3oclast]

Reminds me of a comment I read on yelp when helping my wife find an OB... one woman liked a small practice because she got so see the same "caring MD" every time and that she specifically sought an MD 'after the DOs failed her.' It's funny , because anther patient could just as easily say she sought a DO because the MD's failed her. It's absurd to think you can correlate that kind of thing based on MD vs DO. Oh well, she could just as easily have insisted on seeing a homeopathic non-nurse midwife. I'm not going into medicine for the money but somehow when I am bringing home 15/k a month I don't think I'll care if a handful of patient spurns me because of the letters after my name.

No kidding. Good call.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Liberty has had no mention for the last year and a half. And was taken off the list of proposed medical schools. So I assume its not happening.

Source? I checked and it was there.

 

[darklabel]

Source? I checked and it was there.

I listed my source that it is most definitely included. I hope COCA holds off ok expansions for a little while and focus on expanding residencies.

 

[DocEspana]

Source? I checked and it was there.

Honestly just wikipedia. They have a very well kept article on up coming schools which has a link out to any announced pre-accreditastion announcements or announced holdups in the expected firsdt enrollment date. On that PDF someone else listed, there are at least two schools that will 100% not happen (homer whatever school and Monmouth school) because the mother institution has pulled bait on them. That liberty filed for pure accreditation means nothing. They haven't gotten it yet, and as such cant do anything but be a blueprint sitting on a developers desk. Additionslly on that list there are schools that already have their pure accreditation and slated opening dates. A list of applicants for pre accreditation is like my list of celebrities I would sleep with. Completely irrelevant unless you would also sleep with that celebrity, and totally worthless until I actually see one of them in person and enter my "previous dating flirtation" stage. Before I reach that point, I wouldn't take my list to mean that Scarlett Johanson and Sofia vergara are totally going to be bedded by me.

As for someone else's comment. Both merced and riverside are slated for 2913 or 2014 iirc. The schools don't always make their projected start date, but that's the official word on their opening.

 

[gyngyn]

Why not? I thought it was further along than UCR.

UCR is now interviewing for it's first class due to a generous infusion of private capital. With the state of CA's current budget problems and legislative strife, UCM has taken a back seat (way back).

 

[Sileni]

11-14 MD schools will open in the next 2 years (Mayo AZ, UCMerced, UCRiverside, Northern California CoM, Frank Netter School @ Quinnipiac*, Central Michigan CoM, Western Michigan @ Kalamazoo, Oklahoma U @ Tulsa, Temple @ Pittsburgh**, King College VA, UNTHSC MD School. Along with UTexas, UHouston, and Palm Beach FL as schools that may be done in the next 2 years or longer)

Those schools you listed include those in "applicant" status, which for the LCME is pretty much pay a fee to get your name up there. Palm Beach will never happen, and Merced doesn't seem like it's going to happen.

More importantly look at which schools are opening MD schools Vs. DO schools. UHouston is worlds above a "WisconsinCOM".

That said, the DO accrediting commission has always been more lenient to approval where the LCME is notoriously strict.

Still, I think that just because a degree is opening a lot of schools doesn't have any impact on people who graduate with that degree. Just because there's 10 DO schools that opened in the past 2-3 years doesn't mean that a graduate from MSUCOM is any less competent.

 

[user3]

Those schools you listed include those in "applicant" status, which for the LCME is pretty much pay a fee to get your name up there. Palm Beach will never happen, and Merced doesn't seem like it's going to happen.

More importantly look at which schools are opening MD schools Vs. DO schools. UHouston is worlds above a "WisconsinCOM".

That said, the DO accrediting commission has always been more lenient to approval where the LCME is notoriously strict.

Still, I think that just because a degree is opening a lot of schools doesn't have any impact on people who graduate with that degree. Just because there's 10 DO schools that opened in the past 2-3 years doesn't mean that a graduate from MSUCOM is any less competent.

could not agree more

 

[NurWollen]

Those schools you listed include those in "applicant" status, which for the LCME is pretty much pay a fee to get your name up there. Palm Beach will never happen, and Merced doesn't seem like it's going to happen.

More importantly look at which schools are opening MD schools Vs. DO schools. UHouston is worlds above a "WisconsinCOM".

That said, the DO accrediting commission has always been more lenient to approval where the LCME is notoriously strict.

Still, I think that just because a degree is opening a lot of schools doesn't have any impact on people who graduate with that degree. Just because there's 10 DO schools that opened in the past 2-3 years doesn't mean that a graduate from MSUCOM is any less competent.

It doesn't even mean someone from one of the new schools is less competent.