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Not one of these statements is correct.
Memorizing and regurgitating biology facts hardly qualifies as massive intelligence.
Nowhere in his post did I see that he stated that it does.
Not one of these statements is correct.
Memorizing and regurgitating biology facts hardly qualifies as massive intelligence.
Not one of these statements is correct.
Memorizing and regurgitating biology facts hardly qualifies as massive intelligence.
Not one of these statements is correct.
Memorizing and regurgitating biology facts hardly qualifies as massive intelligence.
This kind of fuzzy thinking hurts my head. Must be the law degree. No ****, every distribution has tails and no correlation short of 1.00 is absolute. The only places where preclinical grades have little correlation with Step 1 scores are schools with Pass/Fail grades.
GuyWhoDoesStuff said:Nowhere in his post did I see that he stated that it does.
Hold on there. Getting INTO medical school and doing well in medical school are two different things. Getting in requires students on average to outperform engineering majors in physics, chemistry majors in chemistry and other biology majors in biology. That's a whole lot more than just regurgitating biology facts. Not to mention that a variety of humanity classes are looked at and most matriculating medical students outperformed humanity majors in those classes as well.
Democritus said:Let's not forget, also, that the MCAT requires a hell of a lot more than memorization of "biology facts".
Speak for yourself dude. Many of us chemistry majors all went on to take quantum mechanics, thermodynamics etc. We had to actually get A's in those classes too, while the engineers were pretty damn content with a B.Dude, they're INTRO classes. Most are 1-200 level, let's not flatter ourselves. Those engineers we're "outperforming" go on to take quantum mechanics, dynamics, fluids, etc. Much more difficult stuff than F= ma.
sighSpeak for yourself dude. Many of us chemistry majors all went on to take quantum mechanics, thermodynamics etc. We had to actually get A's in those classes too, while the engineers were pretty damn content with a B.
You might have slacked off in a state school undergrad with a bio or "premed" major and barely scraped into medical school, but that doesn't represent all of the rest of us. There's nothing weak sauce about someone who ends up getting AOA in medical school and that's what we're talking about here. The people who go into derm, ortho and rads would likely do well in any white collar profession.
There's nothing weak sauce about someone who ends up getting AOA in medical school and that's what we're talking about here. The people who go into derm, ortho and rads would likely do well in any white collar profession.
What does "top 1% of the top 1%" imply to you?
Since when do you need to be AOA to match to ortho or diagnostic rads? you'll have less choice as to residency, but I know a few people that matched into either w/o being AOA
Then I'm sure whatever professional program that would be, would also be included in that top 0.1%.
I can't imagine any of my classmates NOT succeeding in law or engineering or physics if they wanted to.
An elite standing based on some set of criteria. No one mentioned what these specific criteria were. He implied, you inferred. To immediately assume the poster meant "intelligence" rather than "hard work" or "achievement", or any other such measuring stick for that matter, is a bit premature.
It doesn't matter what criteria he was using. It is absolutely false. Most doctors/medical students are not in the top 1% of the top 1% (AKA the top .01%) in anything. The number of US citizens included in the top .01% is about 30,000. There is almost double that amount currently in medical school in the US. You do the math. He certainly proves that he isn't in the top .01% of intelligence when he throws around numbers like those.
It doesn't matter what criteria he was using. It is absolutely false. Most doctors/medical students are not in the top 1% of the top 1% (AKA the top .01%) in anything. The number of US citizens included in the top .01% is about 30,000. There is almost double that amount currently in medical school in the US. You do the math. He certainly proves that he isn't in the top .01% of intelligence when he throws around numbers like those.
Not arguing one way or the other, but aren't there currently 18,000 med students in the U.S.?
The mathematical brain is a whole different beast compared to what we are doing. Sure, some people could do med school and some more mathematically inclined field pretty well, but I have met many med students that are quite horrible at math and likely struggled through the weak math prereqs. Needless to say, they would probably be miserable failures if they attempted to do physics or engineering.
Most med students aren't as bad ass as they think. I've met some very intelligent ones and others that are relatively dumb, as well as brilliant people in many other fields. This idea of elitism that some people spew in their posts is pretty ignorant.
OP, you have problems ------> seek help.
The mathematical brain is a whole different beast compared to what we are doing. Sure, some people could do med school and some more mathematically inclined field pretty well, but I have met many med students that are quite horrible at math and likely struggled through the weak math prereqs. Needless to say, they would probably be miserable failures if they attempted to do physics or engineering.
Most med students aren't as bad ass as they think. I've met some very intelligent ones and others that are relatively dumb, as well as brilliant people in many other fields. This idea of elitism that some people spew in their posts is pretty ignorant.
OP, you have problems ------> seek help.
At my school, premeds and math majors were the only A's in Calc I and calc II. BTW, Calc I and II are considered weak math classes? (I'm including Calc II because it was required in the Gen. Biology path and most med students did Biology).
At my school, premeds and math majors were the only A's in Calc I and calc II.
Yup, intro classes, they are weak.calc 1 and calc 2 are definitely weak math classes. c'mon man, many of us took that in high school. they definitely aren't advanced math classes.
Yup, intro classes, they are weak.
I find that hard to believe. And even if true, how do you know that? Your school distributes grades by major?
Speak for yourself dude. Many of us chemistry majors all went on to take quantum mechanics, thermodynamics etc. We had to actually get A's in those classes too, while the engineers were pretty damn content with a B.
You might have slacked off in a state school undergrad with a bio or "premed" major and barely scraped into medical school, but that doesn't represent all of the rest of us. There's nothing weak sauce about someone who ends up getting AOA in medical school and that's what we're talking about here. The people who go into derm, ortho and rads would likely do well in any white collar profession.
Hahahahaha. Oh, man. BUD/S has an 80% attrition rate. Med school, not so much. Not sure what that guy is thinking.Good God.
I think my favorite comparison thus far was given to us in our first week. A professor likened us to Navy SEALS, Army Rangers, etc. That was a good laugh.
quite sure that number you quoted is the number of incoming US MD students so currently there are
18,000 x 4 = 72,000 US MD students
...add to that the number of DO students and it's going to be over 100k
quite sure that number you quoted is the number of incoming US MD students so currently there are
18,000 x 4 = 72,000 US MD students
...add to that the number of DO students and it's going to be over 100k
Actually, there are about 5,000 incoming DO students, so multiply that by 4 and it's 20,000 so a little less than 100K, but I get your point.
I knew the people making A's in most classes I took because we were all tools and talked about it. The number of A's in the class per test was usually given out to students and in the weed out classes at my school there weren't many A's.
lolFTFY. And I still think your statement is BS.
Speak for yourself dude. Many of us chemistry majors all went on to take quantum mechanics, thermodynamics etc. We had to actually get A's in those classes too, while the engineers were pretty damn content with a B.
You might have slacked off in a state school undergrad with a bio or "premed" major and barely scraped into medical school, but that doesn't represent all of the rest of us. There's nothing weak sauce about someone who ends up getting AOA in medical school and that's what we're talking about here. The people who go into derm, ortho and rads would likely do well in any white collar profession.
it is because they are dicksSpeaking as someone who went to a state-funded college as a bio major, kindly go stick it where the sun don't shine.
I sometimes wonder why people feel the need to validate nasty stereotypes by being dicks.
Speaking as someone who went to a state-funded college as a bio major, kindly go stick it where the sun don't shine.
I sometimes wonder why people feel the need to validate nasty stereotypes by being dicks.
M1 just finished my first year and I'm really struggling with the taste of failure. Unlike some of our friends who are in really dire circumstances with advancement committees and multiple failures on their records I'm struggling because I am what you'd probably call a gunner and I'm feeling like I've already blown my chances at a top specialty. I haven't honored anything and my school seems to be pretty damn smart. People have already put up honors in multiple tough classes and I'm absolutely certain I'm behind when it comes to things like class rank and AOA.
People will tell me not to worry but the fact of the matter is that, if you read the literature, you see top programs and competitive specialties using those preclinical grades as their 3rd or 4th most important factor. Hell, the orthopedists even published a paper demonstrating that great preclinicals are a positive predictor of a person's quality as a surgeon. It's brutal to me. I put up a series of passes in my first term and after re-evaluating my life and habits came back strong in semester 2 only to blow it on my finals. I missed honoring my classes by margins of 4 or 5 test questions.
It absolutely sucks. I feel inferior and worthless. I feel like a failure. I'm afraid that my below average grades will keep me from doing anything I'm actually interested in. I feel like a complete fraud, to be honest. I know PDs will look at my grades and tell me I'm horrible and I just don't know how to overcome it.
The pressure is really on me now, too. Next year I have to study for boards and with my weak, bottom 50% of the class grades I have GOT to put up a +2SD kind of score while honoring everything. After this semester I'm not sure that I can do it. I used to think I was a capable student and competent person but right now I just feel like garbage.
Sure, I passed everything but I'm "below average" on paper. Some people around me tell me to take solace in the fact that I had a lot going on this term outside of school but does anyone really give a crap? Absolutely not. I won't accept any excuses for my own mediocrity. I had an opportunity and I absolutely failed to get it done. No one is going to care why I got a P, nor should they. They will only care that someone else got the H.
So right now I feel like my whole career is crashing down. No matter what I do I'll still be behind and my deepest fear is that really I'm just mediocre. I'm not as capable as I thought. I'm definitely not the student I thought and clearly I'm not as good as my peers.
So you all can read this and tell me what a tool I am but I'm betting I'm not the first to feel this way and maybe someone reading this has been there and can tell me how to cope with it. I hate feeling like I'm working from a disadvantage but all the evidence makes it seem like I'm below average and will never recover.
*I consider this thread to be from the gunner's perspective because of things I want to do with my career. I'm not going to be satisfied to head into something where P really does = MD.
Eh, the best revenge is living well.
I went to a large state-funded university and had what many might consider an "easier" major. I'm also at the very top of my medical school class, smashed Step I, and will be entering a very competitive field, while many of the self-proclaimed REAL college scholars in my class will be toiling away in the obscurity of primary care.*
*I've got nothing but respect for all fields, but I also realize that there are quite a few medical students whose options are limited based on medical school performance
Speak for yourself dude. Many of us chemistry majors all went on to take quantum mechanics, thermodynamics etc. We had to actually get A's in those classes too, while the engineers were pretty damn content with a B.
You might have slacked off in a state school undergrad with a bio or "premed" major and barely scraped into medical school
oh look another med student fueled by insecurity
oh and your little disclaimer at the end doesn't help your case ....way to argue against what you perceive to be an unfair stereotype with another unfair stereotype (that "quite a few" primary care doctors only ended up there because they did poorly in med school, are unhappy with the way their lives turned out and envy you to no end because you are in "a very competitive field") ....get over yourself ...not everyone has a burning desire to be validated by strangers and chooses their field based on how they want others to perceive them
Since there's more than an 80% attrition rate from pre-med to med school, comparing med students to SEALs would be a reasonable comparison, by way of your achievement relative to your starting group. It's an entirely different type of challenge, but I doubt that was really the point.Hahahahaha. Oh, man. BUD/S has an 80% attrition rate. Med school, not so much. Not sure what that guy is thinking.
Speak for yourself dude. Many of us chemistry majors all went on to take quantum mechanics, thermodynamics etc. We had to actually get A's in those classes too, while the engineers were pretty damn content with a B.
You might have slacked off in a state school undergrad with a bio or "premed" major and barely scraped into medical school, but that doesn't represent all of the rest of us. There's nothing weak sauce about someone who ends up getting AOA in medical school and that's what we're talking about here. The people who go into derm, ortho and rads would likely do well in any white collar profession.
OR he/she employed a much, much smarter strategy and went to a state school to save money, picked a major he/she liked since he/she wasn't worried about impressing you, and managed to ace everything while having time to dedicate a significant portion of time to ECs and MCAT study rather than quantum mechanics (which med schools couldn't care less about anyway), thereby positioning him/herself for a top tier med school with very little undergrad debt.
Sounds to me like that kid's the smart one in the equation.
Not all private schools are expensive. There's something called financial aid. The biggest private schools have the most financial aid. That kinda annoyed me.
You guys really need to hug it out. This is straight out of Pre-Allo.
Way to miss the point. No one said that all private schools are expensive. What I said to someone putting down those who chose a state school was that someone could have chosen a state school to save money. Or do you deny that some people do choose state school to save money?
Sure, I probably missed the point. I also didn't read most of the thread, so I barely know what the argument is about. Take it to Pre-Allo. They love that stuff over there.
Not sure about that statistic...you have a source? It seems mighty high.Since there's more than an 80% attrition rate from pre-med to med school, comparing med students to SEALs would be a reasonable comparison, by way of your achievement relative to your starting group. It's an entirely different type of challenge, but I doubt that was really the point.