Another "failure" thread from a gunner's* perspective

[username456789]

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Not one of these statements is correct.

Memorizing and regurgitating biology facts hardly qualifies as massive intelligence.

Nowhere in his post did I see that he stated that it does.

 

[2012mdc]

Not one of these statements is correct.

Memorizing and regurgitating biology facts hardly qualifies as massive intelligence.

Of course not, that alone will get you through the preclinical years, might be enough to get you through 3rd and 4th year, but definitely won't get you through residency.

 

[Democritus]

Not one of these statements is correct.

Memorizing and regurgitating biology facts hardly qualifies as massive intelligence.

Hold on there. Getting INTO medical school and doing well in medical school are two different things. Getting in requires students on average to outperform engineering majors in physics, chemistry majors in chemistry and other biology majors in biology. That's a whole lot more than just regurgitating biology facts. Not to mention that a variety of humanity classes are looked at and most matriculating medical students outperformed humanity majors in those classes as well.

Let's not forget, also, that the MCAT requires a hell of a lot more than memorization of "biology facts".

 

[naus]

I would say the top performers in our school are also pretty damn smart and would be top performers in just about every white collar professional field.

While memory in itself doesn't get you far, a good memory plus +1.5 SD fluid intelligence is a pretty unstoppable combination in any field.

Unless you are one of those photographic memory freaks who can just memorize everything the first time, most people who have good memory are able to do it by forming countless connections with different subjects and disciplines. The act of memorizing effectively is not as passive as some of you guys make it to be, it requires a lot of creativity and mental juggling. There is a correlation in someone with mediocre memory having low fluid intelligence.

 

[MossPoh]

This kind of fuzzy thinking hurts my head. Must be the law degree. No ****, every distribution has tails and no correlation short of 1.00 is absolute. The only places where preclinical grades have little correlation with Step 1 scores are schools with Pass/Fail grades.

They have pretty little correlation for grades too. Highest correlation is nbme peformance. Grades are second, if subdivided then ms2 grades are second and M1 grades are third. Things like mcat performance are a distant last. Obviously there is school dependence, but at my school there is about a 0.8 correlation coefficient (square that for the percentage for people not up on stats), a 0.4ish for preclinical grades, and a 0.2 for mcat.

Step 1 grades are a direct function of hard work, but there is a lot of variation between what professors choose to focus on. I made the conscious decision to not invest the extra time to get the A on our exams and instead use that time for review and practice questions, which isn't uncommon. Also, some people just don't retain information. They cram it all in for an exam and then memory dump for the next one. Those people obviously skew things a bit too.

 

[shadowfox87]

I don't know who said it, and I don't feel like searching and quoting that person. However, medicine is not the hardest career academically wise.

 

[DocDanny]

Then I'm sure whatever professional program that would be, would also be included in that top 0.1%.

I can't imagine any of my classmates NOT succeeding in law or engineering or physics if they wanted to.

 

[Slack3r]

Nowhere in his post did I see that he stated that it does.

What does "top 1% of the top 1%" imply to you?

Hold on there. Getting INTO medical school and doing well in medical school are two different things. Getting in requires students on average to outperform engineering majors in physics, chemistry majors in chemistry and other biology majors in biology. That's a whole lot more than just regurgitating biology facts. Not to mention that a variety of humanity classes are looked at and most matriculating medical students outperformed humanity majors in those classes as well.

Dude, they're INTRO classes. Most are 1-200 level, let's not flatter ourselves. Those engineers we're "outperforming" go on to take quantum mechanics, dynamics, fluids, etc. Much more difficult stuff than F= ma.

Let's not forget, also, that the MCAT requires a hell of a lot more than memorization of "biology facts".

Would you prefer: memorizing/regurgitating intro chem, biology, organic chem, and physics facts? (P.S. it was an exaggeration you seem to have missed)

 

[womp]

Dude, they're INTRO classes. Most are 1-200 level, let's not flatter ourselves. Those engineers we're "outperforming" go on to take quantum mechanics, dynamics, fluids, etc. Much more difficult stuff than F= ma.

Speak for yourself dude. Many of us chemistry majors all went on to take quantum mechanics, thermodynamics etc. We had to actually get A's in those classes too, while the engineers were pretty damn content with a B.

You might have slacked off in a state school undergrad with a bio or "premed" major and barely scraped into medical school, but that doesn't represent all of the rest of us. There's nothing weak sauce about someone who ends up getting AOA in medical school and that's what we're talking about here. The people who go into derm, ortho and rads would likely do well in any white collar profession.

 

[AlexMorph]

Speak for yourself dude. Many of us chemistry majors all went on to take quantum mechanics, thermodynamics etc. We had to actually get A's in those classes too, while the engineers were pretty damn content with a B.

You might have slacked off in a state school undergrad with a bio or "premed" major and barely scraped into medical school, but that doesn't represent all of the rest of us. There's nothing weak sauce about someone who ends up getting AOA in medical school and that's what we're talking about here. The people who go into derm, ortho and rads would likely do well in any white collar profession.

sigh

 

[Mattchiavelli]

There's nothing weak sauce about someone who ends up getting AOA in medical school and that's what we're talking about here. The people who go into derm, ortho and rads would likely do well in any white collar profession.

Since when do you need to be AOA to match to ortho or diagnostic rads? you'll have less choice as to residency, but I know a few people that matched into either w/o being AOA

 

[username456789]

What does "top 1% of the top 1%" imply to you?

An elite standing based on some set of criteria. No one mentioned what these specific criteria were. He implied, you inferred. To immediately assume the poster meant "intelligence" rather than "hard work" or "achievement", or any other such measuring stick for that matter, is a bit premature.

 

[username456789]

Since when do you need to be AOA to match to ortho or diagnostic rads? you'll have less choice as to residency, but I know a few people that matched into either w/o being AOA

This thread is full of strawmen and poor reading comprehension.

In this example, womp certainly never stated that you needed AOA to match into Derm, Ortho, or Rads. He/she was likely using them as examples of fields in which a high % of the successful applicants happen to be AOA members.

To refute his statement with the obvious claim that "there are non-AOA people in those fields" (and the stats make it very clear that the majority of successful matches in all of these fields are non-AOA) is disingenuous towards womp, and completely misses the point in the first place.

 

[motomed]

seriously, what is so controversial about saying that the more successful med students could most likely succeed in any other field if they were passionate about it? seems like a no brainer to me....

 

[Hoju]

Then I'm sure whatever professional program that would be, would also be included in that top 0.1%.

I can't imagine any of my classmates NOT succeeding in law or engineering or physics if they wanted to.

The mathematical brain is a whole different beast compared to what we are doing. Sure, some people could do med school and some more mathematically inclined field pretty well, but I have met many med students that are quite horrible at math and likely struggled through the weak math prereqs. Needless to say, they would probably be miserable failures if they attempted to do physics or engineering.

Most med students aren't as bad ass as they think. I've met some very intelligent ones and others that are relatively dumb, as well as brilliant people in many other fields. This idea of elitism that some people spew in their posts is pretty ignorant.

OP, you have problems ------> seek help.

 

[cpants]

An elite standing based on some set of criteria. No one mentioned what these specific criteria were. He implied, you inferred. To immediately assume the poster meant "intelligence" rather than "hard work" or "achievement", or any other such measuring stick for that matter, is a bit premature.

It doesn't matter what criteria he was using. It is absolutely false. Most doctors/medical students are not in the top 1% of the top 1% (AKA the top .01%) in anything. The number of US citizens included in the top .01% is about 30,000. There is almost double that amount currently in medical school in the US. You do the math. He certainly proves that he isn't in the top .01% of intelligence when he throws around numbers like those.

 

[username456789]

It doesn't matter what criteria he was using. It is absolutely false. Most doctors/medical students are not in the top 1% of the top 1% (AKA the top .01%) in anything. The number of US citizens included in the top .01% is about 30,000. There is almost double that amount currently in medical school in the US. You do the math. He certainly proves that he isn't in the top .01% of intelligence when he throws around numbers like those.

I didn't understand hyperbole when I was a kid either.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

It doesn't matter what criteria he was using. It is absolutely false. Most doctors/medical students are not in the top 1% of the top 1% (AKA the top .01%) in anything. The number of US citizens included in the top .01% is about 30,000. There is almost double that amount currently in medical school in the US. You do the math. He certainly proves that he isn't in the top .01% of intelligence when he throws around numbers like those.

Not arguing one way or the other, but aren't there currently 18,000 med students in the U.S.?

 

[235009]

Not arguing one way or the other, but aren't there currently 18,000 med students in the U.S.?

quite sure that number you quoted is the number of incoming US MD students so currently there are

18,000 x 4 = 72,000 US MD students

...add to that the number of DO students and it's going to be over 100k

 

[CaptainSSO]

Knowing the pre-meds from my undergrad who got into med school, I GUARANTEE you they are not in the top .01% of the population. That would be an absolute insult to people who are.

 

[CatFactorial]

The mathematical brain is a whole different beast compared to what we are doing. Sure, some people could do med school and some more mathematically inclined field pretty well, but I have met many med students that are quite horrible at math and likely struggled through the weak math prereqs. Needless to say, they would probably be miserable failures if they attempted to do physics or engineering.

Most med students aren't as bad ass as they think. I've met some very intelligent ones and others that are relatively dumb, as well as brilliant people in many other fields. This idea of elitism that some people spew in their posts is pretty ignorant.

OP, you have problems ------> seek help.

I think what you say applies to average quants as well. My guess is the upper echelons of each field contain similarly talented folk.

 

[Democritus]

The mathematical brain is a whole different beast compared to what we are doing. Sure, some people could do med school and some more mathematically inclined field pretty well, but I have met many med students that are quite horrible at math and likely struggled through the weak math prereqs. Needless to say, they would probably be miserable failures if they attempted to do physics or engineering.

Most med students aren't as bad ass as they think. I've met some very intelligent ones and others that are relatively dumb, as well as brilliant people in many other fields. This idea of elitism that some people spew in their posts is pretty ignorant.

OP, you have problems ------> seek help.

At my school, premeds and math majors were the only A's in Calc I and calc II. BTW, Calc I and II are considered weak math classes? (I'm including Calc II because it was required in the Gen. Biology path and most med students did Biology).

 

[adaptation1]

calc 1 and calc 2 are definitely weak math classes. c'mon man, many of us took that in high school. they definitely aren't advanced math classes.

At my school, premeds and math majors were the only A's in Calc I and calc II. BTW, Calc I and II are considered weak math classes? (I'm including Calc II because it was required in the Gen. Biology path and most med students did Biology).

 

[Slack3r]

At my school, premeds and math majors were the only A's in Calc I and calc II.

I find that hard to believe. And even if true, how do you know that? Your school distributes grades by major?

 

[AlexMorph]

calc 1 and calc 2 are definitely weak math classes. c'mon man, many of us took that in high school. they definitely aren't advanced math classes.

Yup, intro classes, they are weak.

 

[Democritus]

Yup, intro classes, they are weak.

At my school and at most schools (from talking to other people), "intro" is not analogous to "easy". For engineering in my school, the hurdle to get over was calc-physics. The weed out class for chemistry majors was organic. Same for Calc II and math. These are weed out classes. People who do well in them rarely fall off their track due to "harder" advanced classes.

 

[Democritus]

I find that hard to believe. And even if true, how do you know that? Your school distributes grades by major?

I knew the people making A's in most classes I took because we were all competitive and talked about it. The number of A's in the class per test was usually given out to students and in the weed out classes at my school there weren't many A's.

 

[AggieSean]

Speak for yourself dude. Many of us chemistry majors all went on to take quantum mechanics, thermodynamics etc. We had to actually get A's in those classes too, while the engineers were pretty damn content with a B.

You might have slacked off in a state school undergrad with a bio or "premed" major and barely scraped into medical school, but that doesn't represent all of the rest of us. There's nothing weak sauce about someone who ends up getting AOA in medical school and that's what we're talking about here. The people who go into derm, ortho and rads would likely do well in any white collar profession.

Good God.

I think my favorite comparison thus far was given to us in our first week. A professor likened us to Navy SEALS, Army Rangers, etc. That was a good laugh.

 

[officedepot]

OP, look at the stats to determine how difficult it will be to match into a field based on step 1 score (probably the best predictor to compare to all fields) and determine your level of "gunnerness" from there. If you want plastic surg be super hardcore. You have a chance to improve but it'll take a ton of work. If you want internal medicine than don't worry too much (though I think fellowships may still look at board scores so don't slack if you want cardiology for example).

 

[CaptainSSO]

Good God.

I think my favorite comparison thus far was given to us in our first week. A professor likened us to Navy SEALS, Army Rangers, etc. That was a good laugh.

Hahahahaha. Oh, man. BUD/S has an 80% attrition rate. Med school, not so much. Not sure what that guy is thinking.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

quite sure that number you quoted is the number of incoming US MD students so currently there are

18,000 x 4 = 72,000 US MD students

My mistake, you're right.

...add to that the number of DO students and it's going to be over 100k

Actually, there are about 5,000 incoming DO students, so multiply that by 4 and it's 20,000 so a little less than 100K, but I get your point.

 

[FIREitUP]

quite sure that number you quoted is the number of incoming US MD students so currently there are

18,000 x 4 = 72,000 US MD students

...add to that the number of DO students and it's going to be over 100k

Definitely over 9000...

 

[235009]

Actually, there are about 5,000 incoming DO students, so multiply that by 4 and it's 20,000 so a little less than 100K, but I get your point.

oh ok...i dont know much about DO schools lol

 

[Slack3r]

I knew the people making A's in most classes I took because we were all tools and talked about it. The number of A's in the class per test was usually given out to students and in the weed out classes at my school there weren't many A's.

FTFY. And I still think your statement is BS.

 

[AlexMorph]

FTFY. And I still think your statement is BS.

lol

 

[ArcGurren]

Speak for yourself dude. Many of us chemistry majors all went on to take quantum mechanics, thermodynamics etc. We had to actually get A's in those classes too, while the engineers were pretty damn content with a B.

You might have slacked off in a state school undergrad with a bio or "premed" major and barely scraped into medical school, but that doesn't represent all of the rest of us. There's nothing weak sauce about someone who ends up getting AOA in medical school and that's what we're talking about here. The people who go into derm, ortho and rads would likely do well in any white collar profession.

Speaking as someone who went to a state-funded college as a bio major, kindly go stick it where the sun don't shine.

I sometimes wonder why people feel the need to validate nasty stereotypes by being dicks.

 

[AlexMorph]

Speaking as someone who went to a state-funded college as a bio major, kindly go stick it where the sun don't shine.

I sometimes wonder why people feel the need to validate nasty stereotypes by being dicks.

it is because they are dicks

 

[dienekes88]

This place is starting to sound like Pre-Allo. hahaha.

 

[username456789]

Speaking as someone who went to a state-funded college as a bio major, kindly go stick it where the sun don't shine.

I sometimes wonder why people feel the need to validate nasty stereotypes by being dicks.

Eh, the best revenge is living well.

I went to a large state-funded university and had what many might consider an "easier" major. I'm also at the very top of my medical school class, smashed Step I, and will be entering a very competitive field, while many of the self-proclaimed REAL college scholars in my class will be toiling away in the obscurity of primary care.*



*I've got nothing but respect for all fields, but I also realize that there are quite a few medical students whose options are limited based on medical school performance

 

[dienekes88]

M1 just finished my first year and I'm really struggling with the taste of failure. Unlike some of our friends who are in really dire circumstances with advancement committees and multiple failures on their records I'm struggling because I am what you'd probably call a gunner and I'm feeling like I've already blown my chances at a top specialty. I haven't honored anything and my school seems to be pretty damn smart. People have already put up honors in multiple tough classes and I'm absolutely certain I'm behind when it comes to things like class rank and AOA.

People will tell me not to worry but the fact of the matter is that, if you read the literature, you see top programs and competitive specialties using those preclinical grades as their 3rd or 4th most important factor. Hell, the orthopedists even published a paper demonstrating that great preclinicals are a positive predictor of a person's quality as a surgeon. It's brutal to me. I put up a series of passes in my first term and after re-evaluating my life and habits came back strong in semester 2 only to blow it on my finals. I missed honoring my classes by margins of 4 or 5 test questions.

It absolutely sucks. I feel inferior and worthless. I feel like a failure. I'm afraid that my below average grades will keep me from doing anything I'm actually interested in. I feel like a complete fraud, to be honest. I know PDs will look at my grades and tell me I'm horrible and I just don't know how to overcome it.

The pressure is really on me now, too. Next year I have to study for boards and with my weak, bottom 50% of the class grades I have GOT to put up a +2SD kind of score while honoring everything. After this semester I'm not sure that I can do it. I used to think I was a capable student and competent person but right now I just feel like garbage.

Sure, I passed everything but I'm "below average" on paper. Some people around me tell me to take solace in the fact that I had a lot going on this term outside of school but does anyone really give a crap? Absolutely not. I won't accept any excuses for my own mediocrity. I had an opportunity and I absolutely failed to get it done. No one is going to care why I got a P, nor should they. They will only care that someone else got the H.

So right now I feel like my whole career is crashing down. No matter what I do I'll still be behind and my deepest fear is that really I'm just mediocre. I'm not as capable as I thought. I'm definitely not the student I thought and clearly I'm not as good as my peers.

So you all can read this and tell me what a tool I am but I'm betting I'm not the first to feel this way and maybe someone reading this has been there and can tell me how to cope with it. I hate feeling like I'm working from a disadvantage but all the evidence makes it seem like I'm below average and will never recover.



*I consider this thread to be from the gunner's perspective because of things I want to do with my career. I'm not going to be satisfied to head into something where P really does = MD.

Hyperbole.

It doesn't sound like you're a gunner. Do you screw over your classmates? If not, then you're not a gunner. Working hard does not mean that you're a gunner.

You worked hard, and you didn't get the results. That sucks, so don't feel bad that you're upset. You gotta change your strategy and start destroying the books. All day. Every day. While you're eating. While you're working out. While you're walking between buildings. If you're not as smart as your classmates, you can always work harder. That's a fact that you can take to the bank.

 

[235009]

Eh, the best revenge is living well.

I went to a large state-funded university and had what many might consider an "easier" major. I'm also at the very top of my medical school class, smashed Step I, and will be entering a very competitive field, while many of the self-proclaimed REAL college scholars in my class will be toiling away in the obscurity of primary care.*



*I've got nothing but respect for all fields, but I also realize that there are quite a few medical students whose options are limited based on medical school performance

oh look another med student fueled by insecurity 😴

oh and your little disclaimer at the end doesn't help your case ....way to argue against what you perceive to be an unfair stereotype with another unfair stereotype (that "quite a few" primary care doctors only ended up there because they did poorly in med school, are unhappy with the way their lives turned out and envy you to no end because you are in "a very competitive field") ....get over yourself ...not everyone has a burning desire to be validated by strangers and chooses their field based on how they want others to perceive them

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Speak for yourself dude. Many of us chemistry majors all went on to take quantum mechanics, thermodynamics etc. We had to actually get A's in those classes too, while the engineers were pretty damn content with a B.

You might have slacked off in a state school undergrad with a bio or "premed" major and barely scraped into medical school

OR he/she employed a much, much smarter strategy and went to a state school to save money, picked a major he/she liked since he/she wasn't worried about impressing you, and managed to ace everything while having time to dedicate a significant portion of time to ECs and MCAT study rather than quantum mechanics (which med schools couldn't care less about anyway), thereby positioning him/herself for a top tier med school with very little undergrad debt.

Sounds to me like that kid's the smart one in the equation.

 

[username456789]

oh look another med student fueled by insecurity 😴

oh and your little disclaimer at the end doesn't help your case ....way to argue against what you perceive to be an unfair stereotype with another unfair stereotype (that "quite a few" primary care doctors only ended up there because they did poorly in med school, are unhappy with the way their lives turned out and envy you to no end because you are in "a very competitive field") ....get over yourself ...not everyone has a burning desire to be validated by strangers and chooses their field based on how they want others to perceive them

Nah I'm good, but thanks. I'm actually probably one of the most humble medical students you'll meet, but people like womp do a good job of bringing out the stereotypical "medical student" in me.

 

[45408]

Hahahahaha. Oh, man. BUD/S has an 80% attrition rate. Med school, not so much. Not sure what that guy is thinking.

Since there's more than an 80% attrition rate from pre-med to med school, comparing med students to SEALs would be a reasonable comparison, by way of your achievement relative to your starting group. It's an entirely different type of challenge, but I doubt that was really the point.

 

[dienekes88]

Speak for yourself dude. Many of us chemistry majors all went on to take quantum mechanics, thermodynamics etc. We had to actually get A's in those classes too, while the engineers were pretty damn content with a B.

You might have slacked off in a state school undergrad with a bio or "premed" major and barely scraped into medical school, but that doesn't represent all of the rest of us. There's nothing weak sauce about someone who ends up getting AOA in medical school and that's what we're talking about here. The people who go into derm, ortho and rads would likely do well in any white collar profession.

OR he/she employed a much, much smarter strategy and went to a state school to save money, picked a major he/she liked since he/she wasn't worried about impressing you, and managed to ace everything while having time to dedicate a significant portion of time to ECs and MCAT study rather than quantum mechanics (which med schools couldn't care less about anyway), thereby positioning him/herself for a top tier med school with very little undergrad debt.

Sounds to me like that kid's the smart one in the equation.

Not all private schools are expensive. There's something called financial aid. The biggest private schools have the most financial aid. That kinda annoyed me.

You guys really need to hug it out. This is straight out of Pre-Allo.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Not all private schools are expensive. There's something called financial aid. The biggest private schools have the most financial aid. That kinda annoyed me.

You guys really need to hug it out. This is straight out of Pre-Allo.

Way to miss the point. No one said that all private schools are expensive. What I said to someone putting down those who chose a state school was that someone could have chosen a state school to save money. Or do you deny that some people do choose state school to save money?

 

[dienekes88]

Way to miss the point. No one said that all private schools are expensive. What I said to someone putting down those who chose a state school was that someone could have chosen a state school to save money. Or do you deny that some people do choose state school to save money?

Sure, I probably missed the point. I also didn't read most of the thread, so I barely know what the argument is about. Take it to Pre-Allo. They love that stuff over there.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Sure, I probably missed the point. I also didn't read most of the thread, so I barely know what the argument is about. Take it to Pre-Allo. They love that stuff over there.

Or you could choose not to click on this thread.

 

[CaptainSSO]

Since there's more than an 80% attrition rate from pre-med to med school, comparing med students to SEALs would be a reasonable comparison, by way of your achievement relative to your starting group. It's an entirely different type of challenge, but I doubt that was really the point.

Not sure about that statistic...you have a source? It seems mighty high.

But, even, assuming there is an 80% attrition rate, I know a lot of pre-meds who didn't have their hearts in the whole process and still got in. Sure, they wanted to be doctors, but they scraped by doing the bare minimum. With BUD/S, you have to give full effort all the time, with your whole heart in it, or they'll break you. The BUD/S instructors literally have hypothermia tables memorized so that they can keep the students immersed in the ~55-65 degree water as long as possible. Seriously, just to get an understanding of how bad that sucks, go take a shower with the water as cold as it will go. That's what I did--I was watching a video of a cold water swim they were doing, and watching it on a screen, it looked easy. So I took a 10 minute shower as cold as it would go. Wow, talk about a wake up call.

And then there's Hell Week, where the students go from Sunday night to Friday afternoon with only 4 hours of sleep the entire week, doing physical evolutions (their word for a specific training exercise, like a mile swim, for instance) the whole time. They have to use their mind to push their body beyond what they thought was possible, when they're in pain, cold, and tired, with skin that's raw and chafed, and instructors are taunting them to quit and go take a hot shower. I never even came close to that level of effort/commitment as a pre-med. There was never a point where I thought, oh, I might have to quit, it's too much for me. SEAL training and med school are very different, yes, but SEAL training is exponentially more taxing than studying, going to class, etc. Comparing some dorky pre-med student studying for an o chem test to a SEAL is insulting to to the SEAL.

(Didn't mean to write a novel, but I have a ton of respect for SEALs and what they do, and the whole process of their training fascinates me, seeing how far a human being is able to push themselves).

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/user/MrHastyAmbush#p/u/61/68EEiuztDoo

Skip to 6 minutes and watch the fun ensue. That's just one tiny, tiny fraction of their training--but it gives you an idea of what they go through.

Edit 2: Skip to 12:30 if you don't want to watch very much. Instructor: "What's six times three?" Student, ~10 seconds later, cause he's borderline hypothermic: "18." Instructor: "Ohhh, you're a brain surgeon." Love it!

 

[gulnosh]

well its really important to get rid of the overstress, coz it can lead to a vicious cycle and condition may get worsen...