Another Gun thread... revolver or semi-automatic?

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drfeelgood

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Hi guys... i'm thinking about buying a handgun for home defense....since i'm not going to use it that often should i get a 38 special revolver( hard to break, hard to jam, but not cool lookin) or a automatic like a beretta 9mm or HK 40 caliber (easier to break, easier to jam,wear on the magazine springs, but cool lookin and i can fire it sideways like a gangster)
 
Many gun ranges allow you to rent different pistols to see how you like them.


Personally, I have both a revolver (.22, don't laugh, it works) and a semi-auto (Walther .308, once again, don't laugh, it works).
 
Hi guys... i'm thinking about buying a handgun for home defense....since i'm not going to use it that often should i get a 38 special revolver( hard to break, hard to jam, but not cool lookin) or a automatic like a beretta 9mm or HK 40 caliber (easier to break, easier to jam,wear on the magazine springs, but cool lookin and i can fire it sideways like a gangster)

Get a 357. I can fire cheaper .38 ammo with it when I want to have fun, and 357 ammo when it's time for business. Some may feel like a semiauto is nice because of a large magazine, but I figure that any bad guys around my house will either have a large hole in them or will run like hades after the first bark from the big dog. Either way, I won't need more than 6 bullets. 🙂
 
Have you shot both? Agree with the above, go to a local range and try out a bunch, see how they feel in your hand, see how you shoot them, etc...

That said, I'd go with the semi-auto. Like you said, there is a slightly higher chance of something going wrong, but I'd rather deal with the occasional jam than limitations of the revolver. God forbid if you ever need more than 5/6 shots then you're going to have to reload. Plus, if you go with some of the more compact lightweight revolvers they can be pretty rough on your hands and not fun to practice with at the range.

For home defense why not go with a larger semi-auto. Much higher capacity, some can be a joy to shoot (equals you being more willing to practice with it), and with the ability use things like accessory lights or something on it. I have about 700 rounds through my compact Kahr 9mm without a single failure/jam. And Glocks are just famous for being insanely reliable.

Also, I'd go with something larger than .38, either 9mm, .357mag, .44, or .45

If it's strictly for home defense though, also give some thought to a shotgun.
 
There must be about a million websites on home defense options, but here is my take on it.

If you are a hard core, serious shooter find a semi-auto with the most awkward safety arrangement possible. If an intruder gets your gun, hopefully he will not be able to figure out how to use it against you. I haven't found a bare gun on the market with a truly awkward safety arrangement. However, if you utilize one of the police style double retention holsters you get a system that works. This system only works if you are such a serious shooter that getting your weapon ready and into a firing position becomes a sub-cortical reflex. I would argue that many (maybe most) police officers do not shoot enough to be in this category.

If you are a casual shooter, couple hundred rounds a month, you can't beat a good revolver. If you are serious about home defense, you shouldn't care about looking cool. You want function and accuracy. (of course to a true gun aficionado a revolver is every bit as beautiful as a semi-auto.) A revolver can sit in the ready position for 10 years (not recommended) and function flawlessly when called upon. As far as capacity, it is more important to hit what you want to. Remember the old adage, you can't win a gun fight by missing more. Load up a couple of speed loaders and you will have more than enough firepower for anything short of a riot (and you shouldn't use a pistol as your primary riot response.)

I recommend a Colt Python 357 mag with 4" barrel. 6" barrel would also be acceptable. It allows you to shoot 38 special to hone your skills without the added recoil of the 357. Load some hot 357 for home defense and have at it.

-pod

edited to add: I would also consider a pump action 12 gauge. While I have no moral qualms about killing an intruder, I would rather not have to. There are few intruders with enough mettle to stick around when they hear the unmistakeable rack-rack of a pump action.
 
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There must be about a million websites on home defense options, but here is my take on it.

If you are a hard core, serious shooter find a semi-auto with the most awkward safety arrangement possible. If an intruder gets your gun, hopefully he will not be able to figure out how to use it against you. I haven't found a bare gun on the market with a truly awkward safety arrangement. However, if you utilize one of the police style double retention holsters you get a system that works. This system only works if you are such a serious shooter that getting your weapon ready and into a firing position becomes a sub-cortical reflex. I would argue that many (maybe most) police officers do not shoot enough to be in this category.

If you are a casual shooter, couple hundred rounds a month, you can't beat a good revolver. If you are serious about home defense, you shouldn't care about looking cool. You want function and accuracy. (of course to a true gun aficionado a revolver is every bit as beautiful as a semi-auto.) A revolver can sit in the ready position for 10 years (not recommended) and function flawlessly when called upon. As far as capacity, it is more important to hit what you want to. Remember the old adage, you can't win a gun fight by missing more. Load up a couple of speed loaders and you will have more than enough firepower for anything short of a riot (and you shouldn't use a pistol as your primary riot response.)

I recommend a Colt Python 357 mag with 4" barrel. 6" barrel would also be acceptable. It allows you to shoot 38 special to hone your skills without the added recoil of the 357. Load some hot 357 for home defense and have at it.

-pod

edited to add: I would also consider a pump action 12 gauge. While I have no moral qualms about killing an intruder, I would rather not have to. There are few intruders with enough mettle to stick around when they hear the unmistakeable rack-rack of a pump action.
The S&W 686 is pretty nice. If you pick up a 617 you have the advantage of being able to practice with .22 in essentially the same gun.

The diamondback and python does the same thing if you can find them (not made since 2003 if I recall).

I would agree on a 12g but like we discussed in Jets post, the manual of arms is significantly more difficult to master.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
That said, I'd go with the semi-auto. Like you said, there is a slightly higher chance of something going wrong, but I'd rather deal with the occasional jam than limitations of the revolver. God forbid if you ever need more than 5/6 shots then you're going to have to reload. Plus, if you go with some of the more compact lightweight revolvers they can be pretty rough on your hands and not fun to practice with at the range.

I'd disagree with this statement. "Dealing with the occasional jam" is not a trivial thing in self-defense, which is why with semiautos you have to practice the tap-rack-bang. With revolvers, any misfire you simply pull the trigger again.

Five or six well-placed shots are better than fifteen spray-and-pray.

If the handgun is for home defense, then getting a lightweight compact makes no sense, as those are for carry. Using a heavier, steel K-frame revolver for home defense and practice will reduce revolver kick and make it easier to practice with .38 spl while allowing the use of more powerful magnum rounds when loaded for self-defense.

I agree, though, that shotguns are better for straight up home defense.
 
I'd disagree with this statement. "Dealing with the occasional jam" is not a trivial thing in self-defense, which is why with semiautos you have to practice the tap-rack-bang. With revolvers, any misfire you simply pull the trigger again.

Five or six well-placed shots are better than fifteen spray-and-pray.

If the handgun is for home defense, then getting a lightweight compact makes no sense, as those are for carry. Using a heavier, steel K-frame revolver for home defense and practice will reduce revolver kick and make it easier to practice with .38 spl while allowing the use of more powerful magnum rounds when loaded for self-defense.

I agree, though, that shotguns are better for straight up home defense.

Under my side of the bed: pump shotgun with 00 buckshot, designed for my high-humidity location.

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_870/model_870_marine_magnum.asp

(A good overview of all types of ammo:
http://www.internetarmory.com/shotgun_ammo.htm)

Under the wife's side of the bed: stainless steel Ruger Police Service-Six .38 special with Pachmayer grips. Loaded with 95 grain silver tips. Very easy for her to control, and she can put six rounds center mass at 15 feet. Two armed speed loaders in the case next to the pistol. Very simple mechanism for her to operate: point the weapon, pull the trigger. No cocking required, no safety to release, etc.

In my car / on my person, along with concealed permit: Glock 27, with CorBon powerball rounds.

My father-in-law says we're underpowered for our neck of the woods. Guess I'll look for an AK-47 on eBay.
 
Under my side of the bed: pump shotgun with 00 buckshot, designed for my high-humidity location.

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_870/model_870_marine_magnum.asp

(A good overview of all types of ammo:
http://www.internetarmory.com/shotgun_ammo.htm)

Under the wife's side of the bed: stainless steel Ruger Police Service-Six .38 special with Pachmayer grips. Loaded with 95 grain silver tips. Very easy for her to control, and she can put six rounds center mass at 15 feet. Two armed speed loaders in the case next to the pistol. Very simple mechanism for her to operate: point the weapon, pull the trigger. No cocking required, no safety to release, etc.

In my car / on my person, along with concealed permit: Glock 27, with CorBon powerball rounds.

My father-in-law says we're underpowered for our neck of the woods. Guess I'll look for an AK-47 on eBay.

nice
 
Under my side of the bed: pump shotgun with 00 buckshot, designed for my high-humidity location.

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_870/model_870_marine_magnum.asp

(A good overview of all types of ammo:
http://www.internetarmory.com/shotgun_ammo.htm)

Under the wife's side of the bed: stainless steel Ruger Police Service-Six .38 special with Pachmayer grips. Loaded with 95 grain silver tips. Very easy for her to control, and she can put six rounds center mass at 15 feet. Two armed speed loaders in the case next to the pistol. Very simple mechanism for her to operate: point the weapon, pull the trigger. No cocking required, no safety to release, etc.

In my car / on my person, along with concealed permit: Glock 27, with CorBon powerball rounds.

My father-in-law says we're underpowered for our neck of the woods. Guess I'll look for an AK-47 on eBay.
Funny that we both have the same link for shotgun ammo. For those without acreage I would point out the comment on penetration. For houses where you might care about someone on the other side of the wall #4 buckshot is probably better. In an apartment for example going down to #4 birdshot is probably better. 00 buck has serious over penetration problems.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
Funny that we both have the same link for shotgun ammo. For those without acreage I would point out the comment on penetration. For houses where you might care about someone on the other side of the wall #4 buckshot is probably better. In an apartment for example going down to #4 birdshot is probably better. 00 buck has serious over penetration problems.

David Carpenter, PA-C

So why not just a carbine loaded with hollow point ammunition then? No need to worry about spread and no need to worry about just pissing off the target.
 
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When it comes to home defense, seriously consider a trusty old 12 guage. There are some truly bad ass ones out there. I have the Benelli M4 on order from my local gun shop. Check this video out on YouTube. Nothing says run like hell like a semi auto 12 guage!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImDSX9_YpbU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkYNJVaAV3o&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXpMr8YPGGQ

I bought the M4 last year with the skeletonized stock. I don't know if you have ever fired one......absolutely amazing. I was introduced to the M4 in the USMC, and it is the finest shotgun I have ever fired. If you want any info on purchasing a full length tube for the shells pm me.

I can rapid fire nine cheap ass target loads within a heartbeat with out any problems.
 
But I thought the M4 was an assault rifle?



Call of Duty 4 LIED TO ME!
 
Damn lawyers locked away a guy in some state awhile back,
home invasion case, homeowner with a double action revolver.

Homeowner cocked the trigger, waited, then shot.

The lawyers argued that it was no longer self defence.


Get the shotgun,

Situations as such will pump even an expierenced person with adrenaline.
Your shots will not be accurate.
My daughter has been instructed on how to load and chamber the thunder stick,
sit on the floor, and place the shotgun butt against the wall.

When the bad guy opens the bedroom door, identify as bad guy, then squeeze.

No need to play hunter and seek him out, stay safe, stay quite, stay armed.

foil
 
So why not just a carbine loaded with hollow point ammunition then? No need to worry about spread and no need to worry about just pissing off the target.
Most modern carbines (5.56) will also over penetrate. Especially with hollow points. Most of the articles that I have seen say the hollow point gets plugged with drywall and doesn't expand. 9mm has many of the same problems. If you consider that most 9mm rounds are the same size as one 00 buck and are going much faster you see the problem.

If I was I was clearing a building I would take an M4 (Colt version). If I was defending my house then a shotgun with appropriate ammo (for the backstop) would be my choice. If I was still in I would be interested in trying a P90 (if nothing else because they look so cool on Stargate.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
But I thought the M4 was an assault rifle?



Call of Duty 4 LIED TO ME!

The Benelli M4 is a 12 gauge semiautomatic inertia driven shotgun, it even sounds cool. The M4 that is commonly referred to is the AR15 or M16 rifles.
 
Most modern carbines (5.56) will also over penetrate. Especially with hollow points. Most of the articles that I have seen say the hollow point gets plugged with drywall and doesn't expand. 9mm has many of the same problems. If you consider that most 9mm rounds are the same size as one 00 buck and are going much faster you see the problem.

If I was I was clearing a building I would take an M4 (Colt version). If I was defending my house then a shotgun with appropriate ammo (for the backstop) would be my choice. If I was still in I would be interested in trying a P90 (if nothing else because they look so cool on Stargate.

David Carpenter, PA-C

I was on a SRT team in Marines and we normally carried the HK MP5. We switched to the M4 and I honestly think that the HK was much better for indoor engagements. The .223 rounds hit those walls and tumble down them really bad, and really fast. It makes it even more dangerous for your team mates if you split up to clear more than one room at a time and you are firing rounds. There are pros and cons for using either weapon though.

Shotgun hands down for your home.
 
Most modern carbines (5.56) will also over penetrate. Especially with hollow points. Most of the articles that I have seen say the hollow point gets plugged with drywall and doesn't expand. 9mm has many of the same problems. If you consider that most 9mm rounds are the same size as one 00 buck and are going much faster you see the problem.

The issue I've always had with shotguns is the idea that because you "can't" used aimed fire, that something that spreads is better. While I understand the thinking, it seems that is more likely to strike unintended targets (Rule 4). Shot spreads at about 1 inch per linear yard. So inside a room, there is unlikely to be much spread, but if you are shooting to the end of a hallway, you lose a fair amount of control over the landing zone of your fire.

I've seen birdshot wounds. They are bloody, but are far from fatal. Birdshot doesn't penetrate that reliably to cause rapidly fatal injuries. An armed assailant can and likely will return fire. Thus I figure you have to use large caliber buckshot. Basically, anything that can reliable stop an assailant will reliably penetrate the interior wall of a home.

Thus I fall back to the carbine. The barrel is going to be easier to maneuver around the home, you have more ammunition for multiple assailants, and you have far more control over the bullet's final resting place. I like hollow point and soft point ammunition, not to prevent wall penetration, but to prevent over penetration of the assailant. If I can't hit my target, there is no ammunition (except maybe a Glaser Safety Slugs) that doesn't put the other people in the home at risk.

f I was I was clearing a building I would take an M4 (Colt version).

I'll take one in select fire please. Adding the suppressor (don't want to wake the neighbors) does add considerable length though.
...If I was still in I would be interested in trying a P90 (if nothing else because they look so cool on Stargate.

That would be a lot of fun loaded with SS190 and SS191 ammunition. I'd almost hope for assailants wearing vests.
 
What people fail to realize is that to incapacitate a bad guy instantly, you need to hit the brain or spinal cord. With a shotgun you increase the chances of hitting much more of an area, and also be able to cause major trauma that would eliminate the threat very quickly if not instantaneously. I have an AR, and I would prefer my shotgun over it any day. If someone does force entry into your house you more than likely will be caught off guard, and have some serious adrenaline going on. It's just easier to point and shoot, rather than possibly empty a 30 round magazine. I am not denying the fact that if you get hit with a round with a velocity 3200ft/sec it would be absolutely devastating, because it would.

As far as the over penetration of bad guys thus using special safety rounds. More law enforcement officials have been killed due to under penetrating rounds rather than over penetration.
 
The issue I've always had with shotguns is the idea that because you "can't" used aimed fire, that something that spreads is better. While I understand the thinking, it seems that is more likely to strike unintended targets (Rule 4). Shot spreads at about 1 inch per linear yard. So inside a room, there is unlikely to be much spread, but if you are shooting to the end of a hallway, you lose a fair amount of control over the landing zone of your fire.

I've seen birdshot wounds. They are bloody, but are far from fatal. Birdshot doesn't penetrate that reliably to cause rapidly fatal injuries. An armed assailant can and likely will return fire. Thus I figure you have to use large caliber buckshot. Basically, anything that can reliable stop an assailant will reliably penetrate the interior wall of a home.

Thus I fall back to the carbine. The barrel is going to be easier to maneuver around the home, you have more ammunition for multiple assailants, and you have far more control over the bullet's final resting place. I like hollow point and soft point ammunition, not to prevent wall penetration, but to prevent over penetration of the assailant. If I can't hit my target, there is no ammunition (except maybe a Glaser Safety Slugs) that doesn't put the other people in the home at risk.
As the poster above stated, its really hard to guarantee incapacitation outside of a head/spine shot. It basically comes down to preference and risk stratification. In my apartment the farthest shot would be 30 feet. That would mean a maximum of a 10 inch spread. You also point out one common misconception with shotguns. That you don't have to aim. You do have to aim, but I would argue that a shotgun is better for point shooting (at least as I was taught).

If you are involved in a shooting you have to acknowledge that most shots are likely to miss. Police miss up to 50% of the time and they have more training that most civilians. You can control what is behind your target (the backstop) but you cannot control whats behind the backstop.

Higher velocity rounds have a tendency not only to penetrate the target but also the backstop. Also a higher velocity round does not as pointed out above guarantee incapacitation.

The goal is to to stop the person from doing whatever you don't want them to do. For this birdshot is a pretty good deterrent. As you pointed out it causes a messy wound but is not usually fatal but will usually cause people to reassess their course of action. Another option with a shotgun is to load bird shot for the first two rounds and then follow it with Buck. This gives you penetration options at the beginning followed by more serious options if the bad guy wants to continue to play. My person load is two rounds of #4 birdshot followed by six rounds of #4 buck (Mossberg 590). If I was in a house with a bit of space around it I would probably use 6 rounds of 00 followed by two slugs.

I can't fault using a carbine. Just more comfortable using a shotgun. Also the only carbine I have is a .357 lever action which while fun to shoot would not be my first choice.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
You also point out one common misconception with shotguns. That you don't have to aim. You do have to aim, but I would argue that a shotgun is better for point shooting (at least as I was taught).

When I say can't, I mean that there isn't time to deliver aimed fire. You certainly can aim with a shotgun. You just have to keep the scatter in mind.

The real key is to shoot something you like, so that you get lots of practice doing it and feel "comfortable" with it when the SHTF.
 
.....Deerslugs.......😀😀😀
 
If you are involved in a shooting you have to acknowledge that most shots are likely to miss. Police miss up to 50% of the time and they have more training that most civilians.

David Carpenter, PA-C

I have heard this argument many times, but I wonder. I have had a fair number of cop friends/ acquaintances over the years. It seems like many of the ones in larger towns had little to no interest in guns and shooting. They would scrape through qualifications when required but otherwise their guns would never see the light of day. If there was a problem with the gun, it went straight to the armorer instead of the individual at least trying to troubleshoot it.

Compare that to the average shooting enthusiast that I have known and I know who I would want backing me up in a dark alley at night... Either my wife, or my brother in law (but that is another story.)

I am NOT dissing cops. Most of the small town cops and sheriffs that I have known are gun nuts and damn good shots. I wonder if anyone has the stats to compare these guys to the larger city guys who don't practice shooting as much but are more likely to be involved in a shooting incident.

Best shooting cop I ever knew was a small town police chief in Alaska. He shot a Colt Python and carried two speed loaders. He would routinely show up the younger guys with their automatics during qualifications and he was fast as hell with the reloads.

-pod
 
I have heard this argument many times, but I wonder. I have had a fair number of cop friends/ acquaintances over the years. It seems like many of the ones in larger towns had little to no interest in guns and shooting. They would scrape through qualifications when required but otherwise their guns would never see the light of day. If there was a problem with the gun, it went straight to the armorer instead of the individual at least trying to troubleshoot it.

Compare that to the average shooting enthusiast that I have known and I know who I would want backing me up in a dark alley at night... Either my wife, or my brother in law (but that is another story.)

I am NOT dissing cops. Most of the small town cops and sheriffs that I have known are gun nuts and damn good shots. I wonder if anyone has the stats to compare these guys to the larger city guys who don't practice shooting as much but are more likely to be involved in a shooting incident.

Best shooting cop I ever knew was a small town police chief in Alaska. He shot a Colt Python and carried two speed loaders. He would routinely show up the younger guys with their automatics during qualifications and he was fast as hell with the reloads.

-pod
The average cop treats a pistol as part of the job. If they are on some type of tactical team they are probably better than average. However, like the average cop, the average citizen buys a gun, maybe shoots a couple of times a year and it stays in the closet most of the time.

You can't really compare someone who shoots IDPA with the average cop. Just as within the ARMY there are gradiations of combat competency. Ie Ranger > 92yankee.

So I go back to my original statement that for most civilians a revolver is better than a semi-automatic and (after discussion) a shotgun is better than a carbine. If you have additional skills and/or are willing to put some time into getting good with a weapon there are probably better options.

For my personal preference I have been shooting for fun and competition for more than 25 years. I have my preferences based on what I like to shoot and what I shoot well with. If I had all the time in the world, my choices would probably be either a Colt Diamondback in .38 or a Bennelli 95E in .32 SW. I can put one inch groups out of these all day at 50 feet and shoot out the 10 ring at 25 yards. Yeah the ammo isn't "elite" but its going to go somewhere where it hurts.

As far as revolver masters. If you ever have a chance to see Jerry Miculek shoot I highly recommend it. The dude can put eight shots from a revolver downrange in under a second. Its really inhuman. Actually from NRA rapid fire its long been understood that full moon clips in revolvers are faster than semi-autos.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
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