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Another Important Question--Church

Discussion in 'Dental' started by Firebird, Apr 26, 2001.

  1. Firebird

    Firebird 1K Member
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    As many of you may have read in the residencies discussion board, I have a slight problem.

    Because of my religious beliefs, I am unable to miss worship services on Sunday morning...no questions asked. This includes academic or job related reasons.

    Anyway, I was wondering if this will affect dental school. I have had a lot of pessimistic feedback in the other thread (I don't mean that negatively...I'm just saying most people have told me that it will be VERY difficult to do). However, medical school is much different than dental school, and I was hoping to hear that dentistry would not be quite as difficult to get through because of this dilemma.

    Any information is appreciated!!!

     
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  3. gower

    gower 1K Member
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    I have a question for you. Are you really interested in a career in dentistry only because of the issue of the demands of religious belief? I do not mean you should abandon your beliefs, but is dentistry necessarily the next best alternative? Are you interested in becoming a dentist for that one reason, or do you find it otherwise attractive? Optometry and Podiatry may also be alternatives, if you wish to stay in a doctoral health profession. Might not there be other suitable/acceptable alternatives for you outside of the health professions?

    Just something for you to give some thought to. No suggestion here that you abandon your convictions.
     
  4. DrDMD05

    DrDMD05 Senior Member
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    Being a non-religious non-churching going type of guy, I was wondering why do you keep Sunday as your "holyday". It doesn't take to much research to find out that the Sabbath that Jesus kept was Saturday. I find it amazing that "CHRISTians" keep Sunday as their day off rest when all Biblical and secular evidence clearly points out that Saturday is the Sabbath.

    My question to you Sunday keepers is one, who change the Sabbath and two why do you "worship" on that day??? Did "God" or Jesus change the Sabbath???? Then why Sunday?

     
  5. Firebird

    Firebird 1K Member
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    At this point, I'm just interested in learning about dentistry and whether it's for me or not. Part of that comes from the original question I posted.

    Secondly, yes, the "holy day" was changed to Sunday. The Sabbath was under the Mosaic Law which has been completed. Now being under the New Testament, we are to assemble, worship, etc. on the "first day of the week", hence, Sunday.

    For a more in depth look at this, you can go to my earlier thread at http://www.studentdoctor.org/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000344-3.html and check out my first post on April 6.

    Now, back to the original question--will there be a problem for me through dental school or any type of specialty program that I may choose to go through?
     
  6. DrDMD05

    DrDMD05 Senior Member
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    There isn't a single book in the bible that states the sabbath was changed from Saturday to Sunday.
     
  7. Firebird

    Firebird 1K Member
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    Ok...I was really hoping to discuss the possibility of getting through dental school without missing a Sunday morning church service. How do the clinical years of dental school work? I would think dentistry would be more of a weekday thing. How many clinical years are there?

    As for the sabbath, no, it wasn't changed. It's still Friday night to Saturday night. However, I don't worship on the Sabbath. I assemble with the church on the first day of the week. The Christian assembly and the Jewish assembly are totally unrelated.
     
  8. DrDMD05

    DrDMD05 Senior Member
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    Depending on the school one attends clinical experience and exposure will vary. Some schools have first year students assisting D3 and D4's during the very first semester while other schools won't let the students see or participate with patients until they start their clinical rotations, which typically starts at the beging of the third year and continues on until graduation.

    If you decide to go into a specialty you will have to apply for this position at a dental school that has the specialty you're interested in. Depending on what school you attend; endodonticts, orthodontics, pediatric dentistry, periodontics, prosthodontics, public health and oral pathology will either be a two year certificate program or a three year masters program. The only specialty that requires more than two years is Oral surgery again depending on what program you get into it can last three to four years with a additional residency afterwards. Some oral surgeons will also pursue a MD degree after completion of their OMS degree. And thus they are doctor doctor. DMD/DDS, MD.
     
  9. DrDMD05

    DrDMD05 Senior Member
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    I hit submit to soon. Yes, I believe that all rotations are done M-F, except maybe oral surgery. If it's an emergency one would probably have to come in at any time. I would avoid OMS, one of the most attractive aspects of dentistry is that their isn't anytime that you'll be on call except if you do OMS. No thanks. Rather work M-Th and make the same cash without the hassel.
     
  10. Firebird

    Firebird 1K Member
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    Thanks very much for the info. I appreciate it.

    So OMS don't make any more $ than do other dentists? That is surprising. I will be looking more into dentistry, as it seems more compatible with my lifestyle (both religiously and time-wise).

    Anyway, one other thing--what types of D1-D2 classes do you take? Do you take Gross Anatomy? I would think no, but someone told me today that their chiropractor had Gross, so I thought maybe dentists, who would need a very good understanding of the facial structures, might also take it.

    Thanks again!
     
  11. Dr.Rich

    Dr.Rich New Member

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    Fire,

    Hey buddy it is Dr Rich.
    Stick with God, he is your only true friend. He is the real reason you got into dental school. These Docs that have big practices and miserable lives because they don't have jesus will parish. You will be victorious. I would rather have jesus than any DR anyday. Grow up heathens. God is real, and you better remember who you were praying to when you were applying to dental school. He has the power. The Chair of every dental board is GOD. Don't forget that.
     
  12. Firebird

    Firebird 1K Member
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    Thanks for the encouragement...

    But I'm still wondering how difficult it would be to balance dental school with my beliefs. Oh, and by the way, I'm not in dental school yet. I'm about to be a sophomore undergrad.

    Wow that sounds weird...time flies
     
  13. DrDMD05

    DrDMD05 Senior Member
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    First year:
    biochemistry
    histology
    microbiology
    nutrition
    dental anatomy
    occlusion 1
    operative dentistry
    physiology
    anatomy (gross)
    cariology
    embryology
    medicine
    clinical orientation
    dental materials
    prevenitive dentistry

    second year:
    general pathology
    oral pathology
    oral diagnosis
    oral and maxillofacial radiology
    medicine 2
    fixed partial prosthesis
    removable partial prosthesis
    endodontics
    introduction to clinical dentistry
    early clinical experience
    periodontology
    oral maxillofacial surgery
    complete denture prothesis
    general clinic

    those are the courses for hte first two years at the school i will be attending.
     
  14. Stephen Ewen

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    I will give my opinion on the larger matter, Firebird, as also a person of faith.

    The spirit of the law should take precendence over the letter of it. God is not a pharisaical accountant, but a heavenly Father. Jesus healed on the Sabbath, and caused real tissy-fits with the Scribes and Pharisees of his day. If you are in an academic endeavor that now-and-then requires you TO LEARN TO HEAL on the Sabbath, or in anthing that requires you deal with any type of pressing need, I see this as not principly different than actually having to, now-and-then, heal on the Sabbath, or pull your animal out of ditch.

    You may get shaming fingers pointed at you, just like Jesus did, but they are just that: shaming fingers, and the finger of God will not be behind them.

    Following the spirit of the law in this is better for your kids. It lets them know you are FREE to be human, and meet your pressing human needs, under the love and care of a Father, rather than feeling you have to hide like Adam from Him when you have them. It lets them know God is not an accountant--like you should NOT be.

    One last thing:

    MT 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

    MT 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."

    MT 12:3 He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread--which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, `I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

    MT 12:9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"

    MT 12:11 He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

    MT 12:13 Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.


    Read also Romans 14.

    That's the best thing I can say to you on the subject.
     
  15. Gumbydammit

    Gumbydammit Member
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    You are right--in fact as far as I know, Seventh Day Adventists are the only Christian sect that worships on Saturday, i.e. the Sabbath.
     
  16. Stephen Ewen

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    There are Seventh Day Baptists, too, a small group.
     
  17. DrDMD05

    DrDMD05 Senior Member
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    Ok, the third question is why do christians observe Sunday as the Sabbath? Is there any biblical basis. I know why, I just want to see if you do.
     
  18. Stephen Ewen

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    Suprise, suprise! ...there is no New Testament basis for requiring one particular day of the week to be set above the rest for anything. Not one.

    The New Testament (NT) teaches that the Old Testament law, including Sabbath keeping, has been fulfilled (past tense) in Christ, who perfectly kept the law for us, and whose merit in this we can enter into so as to receive its merit by grace through faith in Him. This is, in synopsis, the whole Christian faith: Christ was perfect, we are not; He paid the price to atone for our imperfectness, and we can become recipients of HIS merit and not have to stand before God with OUR OWN merit, which will always fall short because God's standard is perfection and we CANNOT meet that standard on our own.

    This does not mean Christians can now "live like the devil," of course, but means we are free to, in the termiology of the NT, "walk in the Spirit," and thereby, "not fulfill the lusts of the flesh." We are not to, "continue in sin that grace may abound."

    The New Testament teaching regarding the laws that Christians must live by, very simply, is this: "The entire law is summed up in a single command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself'" (Galatians 5:14). Not a very long list, eh?! :)

    There are commands, not laws, of Christ, that essentially repeat the same thing. As well, there are Apostolic commands--again, most saying pretty much the same thing. Beyond these, one pertinent Apostolic command was directed at Jewish Christians just prior the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem. They were experiencing murderous persecution at the time for being Christians, and were commanded to not "forsake the assembling together." However, note the word forsake: To leave altogether; abandon. Also note the complete absense of saying WHEN they should assemble together, and HOW OFTEN. The level and circumstance of this NT passage would not even remotely apply to a physician who might be on call to save life one week or so out of four, or even being on call 24/7. The spirit and circumstance of it is altogether different.

    For the most part, the church in her history simply decided for convenience sake to make Sunday the day to meet. Paul in 2 Corinthians also mentions one day as a matter of convenience for the Corinthians' giving money to a particular collection for those same Jewish Christians just mentioned, who were essentially squeezed out of the 1st century economy of their area and were just not making it. There is also the mention in Romans 14 of how some spiritually young Christians had their quirks, and held one day above another; but the Apostle Paul in this situation simply addresses the larger church that these people were in and asks them to not ostracize them for these quirks, but to accept them and let them mature. Beyond this, there is nothing more in the NT regarding the matter of one day above the rest. Christians do very well to leave it off right there, as well.

    My church, for convinience sake, holds Tuesday during lunch service--they serve lunch while the pastor shares a message--Wednesday evening service, Saturday night services, and early and late Sunday morning services. The church down the road adds Tuesday and Thursday evenings, and Friday nights to their line up!!! Any Monday takers out there?!?!
    :D :eek:
     
  19. groundhog

    groundhog 1K Member
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    The Old Testament Sabbath seems to have been designed to help men to not forsake family and God in their persuit of wordly gain. In short, it could help mitigate some of the negative consequences of ones actions if he were inclined to be a work-alcholic.
     
  20. Stephen Ewen

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    I agree. It was made for man, not man for it.
     
  21. DrDMD05

    DrDMD05 Senior Member
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    Exodus 31:12-18, And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speake thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations: that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the Sabbath therefor; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever soeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done: but in the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

    perpetual (covenant)= lasting or enduring for ever or for an indefinitely long time. Continuing indefinitely without interruption; unceaseing.


    So if God never changes and can't lie, why would anyone who believes in him or his laws go directly against his word and not keep the Saturday Sabbath? Like I said before I don't believe that the Bible states anywhere that the Sabbath was changed.

    All the way through the Bible, the standard is that you must keep God's Law if you want to be part of His people. Some people I've seen and talked to say that you don't have to keep God's Law, or you can't keep God's Law. You don't have to keep the Sabbath, or you can't keep the Sabbath. And this is why I'm so terribly intrested on this subject. I know that there are many books of theology that have been written to explain why you can't, and how you can't. And all of this I can't talk seems unbiblical to me. So if you can't keep God's Law, have you ever thought of the reflection that that casts upon God Himself? That means that God made a law and told us to keep it but we can't, so what kind of a god is that? Do you see the terrible blasphemy that's involved in making a statement like that? You are telling God that, "You've told me to do something that I can't do. You've told me to do something and You haven't made any way for me to do it." That's what you're really saying.
    The doctrine that you can't keep God's Law weather it's the Sabbath or any other law that's out right against the Bible, I tend to think that these are the commandments of men instead of the Word of God.


    DMD. Who's a non church going or Sabbath keeping guy.
     
  22. Firebird

    Firebird 1K Member
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    I'll agree that this matter seems really complicated, but it's really not.

    The Sabbath was part of the Old Testament. The purpose of the "Old Law" was to prepare man for a spiritual kingdom and to help us understand God's relationship toward man and vice versa. Therefore, the Old Testament/Old Law was created to prepare us for something better.

    When the "better" thing came around--that was Christ--the Old Law was done away with. The New Law or the New Testament came to be our guide book.

    Stephen is not correct in saying that there is no scriptural basis for having worship on Sunday.

    The Bible says in Acts 20:7 that the disciples came together on the first day of the week to break bread (communion). That was the day that was set apart for that. Additionally, the Corinthians were told to take up a collection on the first day of the week. Why Stephen said it was merely for conveinence sake, I have no idea. It is certainly not mentioned like that in the Bible.

    This is the only mentioning of a particular day that *had* to be kept. The Bible later says for us not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together (Hebrews 10:25). Therefore, we are told to meet on the first day of the week to commune and have a collection (other items of worship are mentioned later, but not directly speaking of the first day of the week. Those passages say things like, "when you come together...do this and that". These particular items include prayer, singing, preaching, etc.).

    Having said that, and having put all the scriptures together, we find that we're told through both command and example to worship and assemble on the first day of the week and to not forsake such an assembling.

    Sorry to be contradictory with you Stephen. However, do remember that you called my beliefs "theologically ludicrous".
     
  23. Stephen Ewen

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    Firebird,

    First off, I said there was no Scriptural basis requiring one day to be set apart from the next. Careful.

    Second, I said that to say that the Christian physician who saves a life on one particualr day that supposedly should be set apart for church attendence--that such a one is in sin for this--is ludicrous. Remember the story of the Good Samaritan, where two religious persons passed a dying man by to go to, in essence, church? Remember Christ's response?

    Regarding the languishing saints in Jerusalem and the collection on the certain day for them: if we today are obligated to come together on that same day, are we not also obligated to take the same collection for the same saints in the same Jerusalem in the same crisis? Was not that, following your logic, commanded for that particular situtation as well? How can one justify separating the day and the occurance which precipitated the speaking of the day? Or are the passages, after all, descriptions of then contemporary situations, and Paul speaking within them?

    The Biblical instances you are speaking of are happenings--occurances--not commands of Christ or the Apostles. Paul was describing, and speaking within, what the Corinthians did, and Luke describing what the belivers did in Acts. Paul DID NOT give apostolic command making permanent and perpetual the day, nor did Luke add a phrase justifying the practice he described by reference to any command of perpetuity of Christ or the Apostles, as was his pattern when the practices he described in Acts were based upon one (in Luke he made reference to the prophets when what he described was based on or came from such. As well, in Acts). Occurance and speaking within and to then contemporary situations vs. perpetual and non-time or situation bound specific command--HUGE difference. To not differentiate between the two is simply sloppy hermenuetics. We are not obligated, Sripturally, to obey occurances, nor commands for then contemporary situations, only commands of perpetuity. For example, Paul asked Timothy to bring him a coat for the winter. Occurance and description for then...or perpetual command?--for today! Similarly, taking a collection on the certain day of the week to aid suffering Jewish Christians in Jerusalem. Occurance and description for then...or perpetual command?--for today! Can principles be gleaned fromsuch? Yes. Can binding commands for all people of all time be gleaned from them? No.

    Let me say, finally, that I think I see your heart and intent in all this, and that it is beautiful and wonderful; but I just don't think you need to go to anywhere near the length you are going to to meet what you are trying to meet. I would really hate to see you mess up becoming the physician you could be when, all along, God may not have been asking you to choose THIS battle, and THIS hill, as the one to make a do or die stand on.

    For the person who quoted from Exodus. I don't know where you are coming from, faith wise. So I am not really sure how to respond, or even if I should. But there are SOLID answers to the things you raised.

    Maybe consider setting aside a few hours sometime and have a good, careful reading of the following links.

    Hebrews 9 http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=hebrews+9&vers ion=NIV&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english

    Hebrews 10 http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=HEB+10&language=english&version =NIV&showfn=on

    Romans http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=romans&version=NI V&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english

    Galatians http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=galatians&vers ion=NIV&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english

    Maybe tell what you think when you are through.
     
  24. Stephen Ewen

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  25. DrDMD05

    DrDMD05 Senior Member
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    I need to mention this for some of you that maybe haven't studied ancient history. Baal was the sun god. Whenever you see the word "Baal" in the Bible, remember what it is talking about. Baal was the sun god the ancient sun god of Phoenicia. It was from these ancient times we get the name Sunday, because the Pagan nations devoted the first day of the week to a festival in honor of the sun god. In fact, in 321 AD, Constantine made the first Sunday law, (he even states that this holyday is for the venerable day of the sun, and it's a public record), he made this law in order to incorporate the pagans and Christians together. This was done so that the Roman Empire could have political and religious control over the pagans and the Christians. This is how and why the Sabbath was changed, this is also how we got our weekend. Like I stated before, no where in the bible does God or Jesus change the Sabbath. Man alone changed it.

    What my whole argument comes down too, is that rather than people being so concerned with breaking the false Sabbath why don't they investigate and find out what the truth is. My investigation on the Sabbath started by my complete disgust for people who claim to Christians. So I investigated and read the bible to see for myself what a TRUE Christian is. That wasn't too hard to do, they are those who love the Lord with all their heart and soul. And how do you love God? According to John 14:15 "If ye love me keep my commandments", imagine to show your love for God you must "keep my commandments". In John 15:10 Jesus states, "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." So Jesus kept the commandments of God, didn't he? Perfectly, he never sinned. Did he pick 5 or 6 or 7 of the commandments and say to himself, "Oh, my father will be pleased, I'm keeping most of them". No he didn't. Are Christians supposed to strive to be like Jesus? Yes they are, so if one claims to be or wants to be a Christian them he must also keep the commandments of God. One can't pick and choose which commandments to keep, he must keep all Ten Commandments just like Jesus did. Jesus did fulfill the law. He fulfilled it by keeping it. He was our example. The law was NEVER done away with (meaning the Ten Commandments). In fact, the law was changed from having to just keep it outwardly, to keeping the law in your heart. Jesus didn't come to make it easy for people so that they could go on sinning. He came as an example to show us how to live. He lived by the commandments.

    Like I posted before, God would not command people to do something unless he meant for us to do it. Remember all things are possible with Christ Jesus, thus keeping the law is possible, but it takes a true conversion of one's heart in order to live a life without sin. A life without sin would include keeping the Sabbath that God had created, the day that he had set aside, and not the day that man has set aside.
     
  26. Stephen Ewen

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    Christians were meeting on Sunday, and other days, much prior Constatine.

    Check this out:

    GAL 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
    ....
    GAL 3:19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

    GAL 3:21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

    GAL 3:23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
    ...
    GAL 4:9 But now that you know God--or rather are known by God--how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.
    ....
    GAL 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
    ....
    30 But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."
    ....
    GAL 5:2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised (inducted into keeping the law), Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised (inducted into keeping the law), that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

    GAL 5:7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth?
    ....
    14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 Neither circumcision (induction into keeping the law) nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God.


    Sorry if that is long. There's more in those prior links I posted.
     
  27. DrDMD05

    DrDMD05 Senior Member
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    Stephen I sent you an email regarding these issues.
     
  28. Stephen Ewen

    10+ Year Member

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  29. Sleepy tooth

    Sleepy tooth New Member

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    Wow, I have never heard so much bible thumping in my life.

    To answer your original question, very few dental schools have classes or clinic on Sunday. Personally there are two religious Jews in my dental school class and neither have ever had a problem with keeping the Sabbath.


    Good Luck
     

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