doctalaughs

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We could have equal laws in this country if things were equal/equitable for everyone. Our country literally had to amend it's constitution and makes acts of Congress because people of a certain skin tone weren't being treated fairly. An strong argument against Affirmative Action would be much more legit if education was equal across the board but we're all smart enough and well read enough to know that's not the case. We can talk about "equal spending per student" all we want but we know the caliber of a public school in say, Irvington, NY isn't the same a public school in the south side of Chicago.

Edit: We actually do have equal laws on paper

I’m all for investing more in early education, public schools and enforcing those “equal laws on paper” - we can all agree on that.

Policies like affirmative action (ie positive discrimination) are terrible. Not only do they create more resentment and polarization of society, they actually hurt those meant to help (ie, black and brown people) because they make other suspicious of the qualifications/merits of those that actually have “made it.”

The opportunity piece is truly hard, because no matter the amount of money you invest into kids, having a single parent household or a cultural upbringing that doesn’t value education make a 10 fold difference compared to the public infrastructure available. This has been shown time and time again. It’s the parents that matter- not the school (and interestingly, biggest factor not being wealth of parents, as poor Asian kids do great). Not sure how to solve this deep issue but what we are doing (ie affirmative action) is making things worse and is an abject failure.
 
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That's always been a lame excuse.

19 year old Marine lance corporals pulling duty in Al Qaim or Kandahar can somehow abide by pretty strict ROE. Lower pay, more dangerous, actual war vs fictitious War On Thing, and yet their ability to assess threats and discourage aggression without opening fire is excellent.

I don't know why the difference in capability is so stark, ..
Answer is simple.

Training. Marines train 95% of the time.

Cops train....well never.
 
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I’m all for investing more in early education, public schools and enforcing those “equal laws on paper” - we can all agree on that.

Policies like affirmative action (ie positive discrimination) are terrible. Not only do they create more resentment and polarization of society, they actually hurt those meant to help (ie, black and brown people) because they make other suspicious of the qualifications/merits of those that actually have “made it.”

The opportunity piece is truly hard, because no matter the amount of money you invest into kids, having a single parent household or a cultural upbringing that doesn’t value education make a 10 fold difference compared to the public infrastructure available. This has been shown time and time again. It’s the parents that matter- not the school (and interestingly, biggest factor not being wealth of parents, as poor Asian kids do great). Not sure how to solve this deep issue but what we are doing (ie affirmative action) is making things worse and is an abject failure.
When one tells poor people to try and learn from the successful minorities, to try and emulate those cultures, they get upset. They also get upset if you point out the parts of their culture that make them prone to failure.

You can give a million dollars to a poor person; that won't make him a millionaire. It will only make him a poor person with a million dollars to waste (see most lottery winners). Then what?

True wealth comes mostly through education and personal/familial growth. There is no shortcut, except through theft (or marriage). What we do need is good education and opportunities for all young people, so that they can focus on their education and not on survival. Except that an educated citizenry is much harder to fool, so both parties are fighting tooth and nail against meaningful reform.
 
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I’m all for investing more in early education, public schools and enforcing those “equal laws on paper” - we can all agree on that.

Policies like affirmative action (ie positive discrimination) are terrible. Not only do they create more resentment and polarization of society, they actually hurt those meant to help (ie, black and brown people) because they make other suspicious of the qualifications/merits of those that actually have “made it.”

The opportunity piece is truly hard, because no matter the amount of money you invest into kids, having a single parent household or a cultural upbringing that doesn’t value education make a 10 fold difference compared to the public infrastructure available. This has been shown time and time again. It’s the parents that matter- not the school (and interestingly, biggest factor not being wealth of parents, as poor Asian kids do great). Not sure how to solve this deep issue but what we are doing (ie affirmative action) is making things worse and is an abject failure.
I will agree that it creates resentment but people rarely take the time to fully research why we're here in the first place. Too many just look at it on a surface level.
 
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doctalaughs

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I will agree that it creates resentment but people rarely take the time to fully research why we're here in the first place. Too many just look at it on a surface level.

I’m not sure it’s that people don’t understand the history of why we are here— I just don’t think it really matters.

We have a problem and it’s just a matter of disagreeing how to fix it and what the end-point is.
 

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Anywell....i'm bowing out for a while because this thread went from a police reform discussion to the inevitable Affirmative Action/whiney minority discussion which are Penrose steps at this point.
 
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Anywell....i'm bowing out for a while because this thread went from a police reform discussion to the inevitable Affirmative Action/whiney minority discussion which are Penrose steps at this point.
Sorry. I'm the extra person who probably derailed the thread (unintentionally).

Please feel free to take the discussion back to a better topic.

Unfortunately, we're not changing hearts and minds here. Most of the hearts are good, I assume (even those that don't like me), and most of the minds are not so easy to persuade. Most of the population listens only to echo chambers (and I would be surprised if SDN members are much different). Most of us lose more friends than we make, on threads like this (real life is downright dangerous). I remember labeling people and just adding them to my ignore list, to avoid having to listen to the other side, once upon a time.

From my own experience, it takes a good amount of doubt to open one's mind to the other side, and truly LISTEN. Most of us never get there.
 
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Was that what I said? Not even remotely.

Btw, this is why I don't post on this forum anymore, and why I am afraid for the future of this country. And you were supposed to be among the smart ones, eikenhein.

Personally, I never know whether I'm discriminated against for having an accent, for being male, for my name, for my looks etc. This reminds me of all the idiots who think that rich = happy.

And the reason I don't support "equity" is the same I don't support socialism, or any other form of government-mandated theft. The solution is not to put two boxes under the shortest person and zero under the tall person; the solution is to put enough (and not much different number of) boxes under everybody so that even the shortest person can see.

What you call equity (in that drawing) others would call communism. It was Karl Marx who came up with "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need". That's simply against human nature; there is no successful democratic society which is based on that. It only exists under totalitarian regimes, which sooner or later collapse.

I didn't grow up in America but it is clearly on this forum that many people do not share my way of thinking. Somehow recognizing or amending past injustices is labeled as socialist or communist, people question "if things are so bad why are there successful black people?", and that I am "supposed to be among the smart ones" so why am I thinking this way?

A purely equal system is only fair when everyone starts at the same starting line. Then people become successful (or not) based on merits, hard work, and intelligence. Obviously this is not the case. When the reason is due to long standing, racist, systemic issues then it bears some effort to try to reduce such disparity. Such a dangerous way of thinking!

I support social programs and policies that recognize that POC have been historically discriminated against and continue to be. That includes among other things more social programs to improve the opportunities of those who don't have them in a purely equal system. Affirmative action for higher education? Sure I think that is one way to do it. (I'm Canadian of Asian descent and affirmative action actually hurts me).

How you implement measures to improve equity can be subtle. It does not mean making criminal laws ridiculous and unequal. I never said anything to that affect. Murder is still murder. Theft is still theft. A crime is still a crime.

Sorry I didn't mean to derail the thread, but I felt a response was necessary against the responses to mine. This is my last post on the subject
 
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We could have equal laws in this country if things were equal/equitable for everyone. Our country literally had to amend it's constitution and makes acts of Congress because people of a certain skin tone weren't being treated fairly. An strong argument against Affirmative Action would be much more legit if education was equal across the board but we're all smart enough and well read enough to know that's not the case. We can talk about "equal spending per student" all we want but we know the caliber of a public school in say, Irvington, NY isn't the same a public school in the south side of Chicago.

Edit: We actually do have equal laws on paper


As with almost everyone on this thread, I believe there is inequality of wealth and opportunity in this country that often falls along racial lines. I tend to disagree with you about what maintains this disparity and what the solutions are to reducing it.

As a non-white person whose grandparents immigrated here in the 50's, my worldview is heavily influenced by their experience and my parents'. They were able to build success despite poverty and racist sentiments, and pass along both resources and values that have allowed me to succeed in my career. I plan to to pass along these same tools to my children for them to use as well.

For black Americans, I don't see a path forward that does not entail gritting teeth, working hard and investing in the next generation's education. I recognize the difficulty in asking someone to use their life as a "rebuilding season" but I know of no other viable solution to building sustainable long term wealth. Sacrifice--not because it's fair but because it works.

Maybe it's residual immigrant mentality but I find there is so much more value and empowerment in learning how to change oneself rather than waiting around for one's environment to change. This is true in medicine where the buck stops with you as an attending. This is true with education, job opportunities, and the criminal justice system where the universe does not owe you a successful, long, happy life.

For the last several years, I have heard nothing from left leaning politicians and news outlets except "systemic racism" and "white privilege". It depresses me to see such a surrender of agency. There is a complete disregard for outcome oriented solutions and instead an obsession with using these nebulous forces to create a never ending supply of excuses. This seems like really really bad advice.

In the last debate, Joe Biden expressed faux outrage that black people should be expected to place their hands on the steering wheel and say "yes officer" and "no officer" during a traffic stop. The indignity of it! All I could think was "isn't that what everyone does?" and "Isn't that the smartest, most universal way to not get shot?"

Even if systemic racism exists, and all cops are bastards, and every badge is just looking for an excuse to shoot you full of holes, isn't that even more of a reason to comply with traffic stops? If I knew police were 10 times more likely to shoot me if I reached in the glove compartment isn't that a reason to be 100 times more careful to...not reach in the glove compartment? I can't think of a deadly traffic stop where the driver, black or white, used my patented method of following instructions and not getting belligerent.
 
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I didn't grow up in America but it is clearly on this forum that many people do not share my way of thinking. Somehow recognizing or amending past injustices is labeled as socialist or communist, people question "if things are so bad why are there successful black people?", and that I am "supposed to be among the smart ones" so why am I thinking this way?
You were supposed to be among the smart ones... who don't put words in my mouth (in your previous post). ;)

Unless I misread something, we were talking about the discrimination of black male students/doctors on this forum in the last 5-10 years, and you suggested I was comparing the current white male experience with the historical plight of blacks (e.g. lynchings) in this country. I would never do that. Whatever you think of me, I am still a decent person.

Also, for every person who does not share your thinking, there is more than one who does, don't worry. There is a reason I am the one taking long absences here.

And I was just trying to point out that the road to socialism/communism/hell is paved with good intentions. There are a ton of countries that used to be capitalist havens, imperfect yet beautiful and continuously improving, just to be turned into some form of totalitarian (socialist) hellhole by a revolution.
 
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As with almost everyone on this thread, I believe there is inequality of wealth and opportunity in this country that often falls along racial lines. I tend to disagree with you about what maintains this disparity and what the solutions are to reducing it.

As a non-white person whose grandparents immigrated here in the 50's, my worldview is heavily influenced by their experience and my parents'. They were able to build success despite poverty and racist sentiments, and pass along both resources and values that have allowed me to succeed in my career. I plan to to pass along these same tools to my children for them to use as well.

For black Americans, I don't see a path forward that does not entail gritting teeth, working hard and investing in the next generation's education. I recognize the difficulty in asking someone to use their life as a "rebuilding season" but I know of no other viable solution to building sustainable long term wealth. Sacrifice--not because it's fair but because it works.

Maybe it's residual immigrant mentality but I find there is so much more value and empowerment in learning how to change oneself rather than waiting around for one's environment to change. This is true in medicine where the buck stops with you as an attending. This is true with education, job opportunities, and the criminal justice system where the universe does not owe you a successful, long, happy life.

For the last several years, I have heard nothing from left leaning politicians and news outlets except "systemic racism" and "white privilege". It depresses me to see such a surrender of agency. There is a complete disregard for outcome oriented solutions and instead an obsession with using these nebulous forces to create a never ending supply of excuses. This seems like really really bad advice.

In the last debate, Joe Biden expressed faux outrage that black people should be expected to place their hands on the steering wheel and say "yes officer" and "no officer" during a traffic stop. The indignity of it! All I could think was "isn't that what everyone does?" and "Isn't that the smartest, most universal way to not get shot?"

Even if systemic racism exists, and all cops are bastards, and every badge is just looking for an excuse to shoot you full of holes, isn't that even more of a reason to comply with traffic stops? If I knew police were 10 times more likely to shoot me if I reached in the glove compartment isn't that a reason to be 100 times more careful to...not reach in the glove compartment? I can't think of a deadly traffic stop where the driver, black or white, used my patented method of following instructions and not getting belligerent.

It really is surprising to me just how hostile other POC and particularly 1st and 2nd generation Asian immigrants are to the idea that black people have been and are treated substantively different than them as far as POC go. I say this as a 2nd generation South Asian born in a deep red (+30 trump) state who has spent 30+ years in deep red states. As much as @doctalaughs wants to throw out a "well, Asians don't face X, Y, and Z so how could society possibly be racist toward black people" argument, it just doesn't work.

The following is an excellent article which lays out how dangerous the model-minority stereotype is.


The most salient points for me:

- ...holding up one racial or ethnic minority as a “model” can too easily become an implicit criticism of other minorities. “If Asians can do it, why can’t you?” is the thought process lying not far below the surface of some commentaries on race and racism in the U.S. This is perhaps the most dangerous byproduct of the model minority stereotype, and a form of racism in and of itself.

- ...One obvious point—though often overlooked—is that Asian-Americans are largely first- or second-generation immigrants, and immigrants are by definition a self-selected group. They are the ones who have been willing and able—or whose parents have been willing and able—to take the often risky journey to start a new life in a foreign land. Immigrants are often well-educated. Asian-Americans have in fact been a uniquely hyper-selective migrant group. The share of well-educated Asian immigrants is in fact higher than the American population average. This alone is likely to influence outcomes, since there is a clear connection between parental education and the education achievement of their children.

- We find that Asian-Americans do in fact live in areas with state-level school performance rates far more similar to whites than Hispanics or blacks ... But in fact the gap in access to good schools is almost as pronounced for those [Asians] living in low-income households (i.e. those below 150 percent of the Federal Poverty Line) as for the general population:

-
Many are struggling economically; the “Asian” advantages popularized in the media are far from universal.

Many groups from East Asia and India are doing very well economically. But Cambodians and Hmong are on the lowest rungs of the economic ladder, with very high poverty rates, of 38 percent and 29 percent respectively. Why is this? And is there an explanation of why some Asian groups do so well, while others struggle? According to the “model minority” theory of the case, economic hardship ought not to matter so much. Culture and values are supposed to overwhelm economic conditions.

-
But overall, given the similar—and striking—differences in access to quality schools, and apparent relationship to outcomes, it seems reasonable to conclude that material factors like access to good schools plays a critical role for all Americans, whatever their race.......As our former colleague Jonathan Rothwell and others have shown, black children in particular are likely to attend worse K-12 schools.
 
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Twiggidy

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I would LOVE to have a good discussion about mass incarceration, almost like an online book club reading of "The New Jim Crow". I think some minds would be opened because I was a bit blown away.
 
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doctalaughs

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-Many are struggling economically; the “Asian” advantages popularized in the media are far from universal.
Many groups from East Asia and India are doing very well economically. But Cambodians and Hmong are on the lowest rungs of the economic ladder, with very high poverty rates, of 38 percent and 29 percent respectively. Why is this? And is there an explanation of why some Asian groups do so well, while others struggle? According to the “model minority” theory of the case, economic hardship ought not to matter so much. Culture and values are supposed to overwhelm economic conditions.

Okay, let’s just for a moment accept your argument against the “model minority” theory.

In the current affirmative action model that poor Cambodian or Hmong kid is doubly discriminated against. First, he grows up poor without access to good school or educated parents. Second, society decides arbitrarily that he must hit a much higher bar for school/tests/jobs etc (a standard deviation above whites, 2 above Hispanics and 2.5 above blacks, if you are interested).

This is why it’s dangerous for government or society to decide that “opportunities” are a broad brush based on skin color, rather than individuals.

Equality of opportunity is never going to be perfect but “positive” discrimination is absolutely not a good policy to try to even the playing field as much as we can.
 
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Okay, let’s just for a moment accept your argument against the “model minority” theory.

In the current affirmative action model that poor Cambodian or Hmong kid is doubly discriminated against. First, he grows up poor without access to good school or educated parents. Second, society decides arbitrarily that he must hit a much higher bar for school/tests/jobs etc (a standard deviation above whites, 2 above Hispanics and 2.5 above blacks, if you are interested).

This is why it’s dangerous for government or society to decide that “opportunities” are a broad brush based on skin color, rather than individuals.

Equality of opportunity is never going to be perfect but “positive” discrimination is absolutely not a good policy to try to even the playing field as much as we can.

Before you go fully down the school affirmative action rabbit hole (of which you are grossly oversimplifying the totality of the admissions criteria used), my post was specifically in relation to your other vast oversimplification and generalization that "poor Asian kids are able to do X so why not black people, maybe they should just try harder." You are using a model-minority stereotype to justify your logic there instead of acknowledging that the situation for 2nd generation Asian immigrants and many black kids is materially different............but now you're concerned that the model-minority stereotype hurts Cambodian and Hmong kids.

You can't have it both ways....
 
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It really is surprising to me just how hostile other POC and particularly 1st and 2nd generation Asian immigrants are to the idea that black people have been and are treated substantively different than them as far as POC go. I say this as a 2nd generation South Asian born in a deep red (+30 trump) state who has spent 30+ years in deep red states. As much as @doctalaughs wants to throw out a "well, Asians don't face X, Y, and Z so how could society possibly be racist toward black people" argument, it just doesn't work.

The following is an excellent article which lays out how dangerous the model-minority stereotype is.


The most salient points for me:

- ...holding up one racial or ethnic minority as a “model” can too easily become an implicit criticism of other minorities. “If Asians can do it, why can’t you?” is the thought process lying not far below the surface of some commentaries on race and racism in the U.S. This is perhaps the most dangerous byproduct of the model minority stereotype, and a form of racism in and of itself.

- ...One obvious point—though often overlooked—is that Asian-Americans are largely first- or second-generation immigrants, and immigrants are by definition a self-selected group. They are the ones who have been willing and able—or whose parents have been willing and able—to take the often risky journey to start a new life in a foreign land. Immigrants are often well-educated. Asian-Americans have in fact been a uniquely hyper-selective migrant group. The share of well-educated Asian immigrants is in fact higher than the American population average. This alone is likely to influence outcomes, since there is a clear connection between parental education and the education achievement of their children.

- We find that Asian-Americans do in fact live in areas with state-level school performance rates far more similar to whites than Hispanics or blacks ... But in fact the gap in access to good schools is almost as pronounced for those [Asians] living in low-income households (i.e. those below 150 percent of the Federal Poverty Line) as for the general population:

-
Many are struggling economically; the “Asian” advantages popularized in the media are far from universal.

Many groups from East Asia and India are doing very well economically. But Cambodians and Hmong are on the lowest rungs of the economic ladder, with very high poverty rates, of 38 percent and 29 percent respectively. Why is this? And is there an explanation of why some Asian groups do so well, while others struggle? According to the “model minority” theory of the case, economic hardship ought not to matter so much. Culture and values are supposed to overwhelm economic conditions.

-
But overall, given the similar—and striking—differences in access to quality schools, and apparent relationship to outcomes, it seems reasonable to conclude that material factors like access to good schools plays a critical role for all Americans, whatever their race.......As our former colleague Jonathan Rothwell and others have shown, black children in particular are likely to attend worse K-12 schools.

I have heard this critique before.

Much of the article is aimed at making the inane point that "Asian" is not the same thing as saying "Chinese" or "Indian".

I referenced both resources and values as instruments for success which are race-blind. Sure, access to good schools is one such resource. Just like having enough money to eat or having two parents at home to help with tasks and finances.

I mean in your world view, to what extent do cultural values such as studying hard, delaying gratification, maintaining intact households, saving for college etc play a role in future success?

Nobody is denying that the history of blacks in the US is completely different from 3nd generation Chinese immigrants. But is there nothing that can learned from the immigrant experience? What traits did these "hyper self selected individuals" have? How can we distill these traits and instill them into black youth? For all the times that annoying word "Reimagining" has been thrown around in 2020 there is an appalling lack of it when it comes to solutions surrounding racial disparities.
 
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I have heard this critique before.

Much of the article is aimed at making the inane point that "Asian" is not the same thing as saying "Chinese" or "Indian".

I referenced both resources and values as instruments for success which are race-blind. Sure, access to good schools is one such resource. Just like having enough money to eat or having two parents at home to help with tasks and finances.

I mean in your world view, to what extent do cultural values such as studying hard, delaying gratification, maintaining intact households, saving for college etc play a role in future success?

Nobody is denying that the history of blacks in the US is completely different from 3nd generation Chinese immigrants. But is there nothing that can learned from the immigrant experience? What traits did these "hyper self selected individuals" have? How can we distill these traits and instill them into black youth? For all the times that annoying word "Reimagining" has been thrown around in 2020 there is an appalling lack of it when it comes to solutions surrounding racial disparities.

Inane point? The Asian model-minority stereotype has been thrown around this forum numerous, numerous times without a clear delineation of East Asian or Indian etc so I wouldn't necessarily call it inane (esp when that stereotype is present even within those communities sometimes).

In my world view, studying hard and all the other things you mentioned are immensely important for future success. The point I'm making is that my family came to the US with these ideals already represented strongly for many generations, and the same can be said for many other successful East and South Asian families. What you're trying to do is take something that is almost second nature to some cultures (who incidentally arrived mostly in the post-civil rights act 70s and 80s and settled into liberal areas) and then question rather trivially "well, why can't this black person whose parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents have been subject to systemically racist, multi-generational disenfranchisement, discrimination, and/or poverty just go ahead and do what I did?"

How about instead of trying to "distill traits and instill them into black youth," you first start with equalizing the material, tangible things you originally mentioned (access to good schools, basic needs etc)
 

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How about instead of trying to "distill traits and instill them into black youth," you first start with equalizing the material, tangible things you originally mentioned (access to good schools, basic needs etc)

No one argued against trying to equalize marerial, tangible things like access to good schools or basic needs so who are you arguing against?

we are arguing against affirmative action as it’s implemented currently, which is wrong.

No one argued the black experience is the same as an Asian immigrant. The point is that each individual experience is different (for example, the Hispanic immigrant experience is very different than black, although largely they are included in the URM umbrella). Trying to categorize by race in admissions/jobs is therefore always going to be a failing proposition (not to mention amoral).
 
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doctalaughs

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............but now you're concerned that the model-minority stereotype hurts Cambodian and Hmong kids.

You can't have it both ways....

It’s not the model minority stereotype that hurts Cambodian and Hmong kids —- it’s affirmative action itself (the decision by government to institute a different type of racism ..... to “correct” racism).

I Doubt justice Barrett will roll back social and abortion progressivism (gay marriage, roe v Wade, lgbtq protections) and hope she doesn’t..... however I really hope she rolls back AA which would be a big win for this country, including minorities in the long run.
 

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No one argued against trying to equalize marerial, tangible things like access to good schools or basic needs so who are you arguing against?

we are arguing against affirmative action as it’s implemented currently, which is wrong.

No one argued the black experience is the same as an Asian immigrant. The point is that each individual experience is different (for example, the Hispanic immigrant experience is very different than black, although largely they are included in the URM umbrella). Trying to categorize by race in admissions/jobs is therefore always going to be a failing proposition (not to mention amoral).

..


It’s not the model minority stereotype that hurts Cambodian and Hmong kids —- it’s affirmative action itself (the decision by government to institute a different type of racism to correct other racism).

I Doubt justice Barrett will roll back social and abortion progressivism (gay marriage, roe v Wade, lgbtq protections) and hope she doesn’t..... however I really hope she rolls back AA which would be a big win for this country, including minorities in the long run.

There are numerous people on this forum (and indeed around the whole country) who are in favor of maintaining the status quo wherein wealthy school districts have good schools, poor districts have shtty ones, and foregoing improving public schools in favor of vouchers, not raising taxes to pay teachers more, etc, and those are who I'm arguing against. The lack of universally good public K-12 education is 1000x more pressing than "distilling and instilling traits." Same goes for those who favor repealing ACA without a replacement, defunding SS, medicaid, TANF, food stamps, WIC etc. The statistics show that removing the safety net disproportionately affects minorities, which in turn makes educational success that much harder when a family is just trying to make ends meet.

Which leads us to the point of why affirmative action is necessary at the level of higher education. As the article I posted earlier shows, even poorer East Asian kids are in better school districts than the general population, particularly black people and Hispanics. There are certain people who not only are not starting the college admissions process on a level playing field, but never even had the opportunity to do so. If indeed it could be demonstrated that K-12 education for children is equivalent in this country, then your argument would have some basis.

Furthermore, your characterization of admissions processes remains a gross oversimplification since race is not the only factor taken into consideration. But indeed each ethnicity should not be treated as a monolith. The solution is not to do away with race as a factor, but instead for admissions committees to realize that there are subcategory differences, i.e. that people of Cambodian and Hmong descent vary significantly in the educational and economic statistics compared to Chinese and Korean.
 
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doctalaughs

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Furthermore, your characterization of admissions processes remains a gross oversimplification since race is not the only factor taken into consideration. But indeed each ethnicity should not be treated as a monolith. The solution is not to do away with race as a factor, but instead for admissions committees to realize that there are subcategory differences, i.e. that people of Cambodian and Hmong descent vary significantly in the educational and economic statistics compared to Chinese and Korean.

If I said to you that being black or Jewish is only ONE of the factors we use to determine if you are not allowed to eat in this restaurant or get on this bus, would you be ok with that?
 

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If I said to you that being black or Jewish is only ONE of the factors we use to determine if you are not allowed to eat in this restaurant or get on this bus, would you be ok with that?

Bad analogy.

A better one, based on a true story™, is that for two hundred fifty years white folks are the only ones allowed on a particular train car, and they pay for their tickets with money stolen from black folks' uncompensated labor. Eventually, through strife, black folks win the right to ride the train, however they don't have enough money for first-class tickets. Are you going to tell me it's unjust for white folks to give some of the money back so everyone can ride up front?
 
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Even though this poll is from 2005, I found the uniformity of AA support from the black community across political lines interesting compared to whites who do differ by political leaning.

1604284954989.png

1604284974730.png

 
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doctalaughs

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Bad analogy.

A better one, based on a true story™, is that for two hundred fifty years white folks are the only ones allowed on a particular train car, and they pay for their tickets with money stolen from black folks' uncompensated labor. Eventually, through strife, black folks win the right to ride the train, however they don't have enough money for first-class tickets. Are you going to tell me it's unjust for white folks to give some of the money back so everyone can ride up front?

I'm going to bow out since this thread is totally derailed and no one is changing their mind obviously...

But also a bad analogy above — unless you say there are only 25 seats on the car and the people trying to ride are a mixture of white people 4 generations removed from slavery, white people that immigrated 1-2 generations ago, Asian people that had nothing to do with slavery and black people that either were 4th generation descendants of slaves or recent immigrants as well.

for anyone interested, good read on why things got better for National unity (and minority equality) for many years but has gotten worse lately on the heels of AA and identity politics.

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I'm going to bow out since this thread is totally derailed and no one is changing their mind obviously...

But also a bad analogy above — unless you say there are only 25 seats on the car and the people trying to ride are a mixture of white people 4 generations removed from slavery, white people that immigrated 1-2 generations ago, Asian people that had nothing to do with slavery and black people that either were 4th generation descendants of slaves or recent immigrants as well.

You took that analogy pretty literally, huh? I know you know that systemic discrimination didn't disappear 1865 nor did it disappear in 1964, so trying to use a "4 generations removed" line is specious. The underlying point is that the legacy slavery and Jim Crow still exists today. There are people alive today whose parents could not easily vote, could not attend integrated schools, could not get any job they wanted, and who could not live where they wanted. Do you think the aftereffects from those things just disappear overnight?

Again, unless you're telling me that all students start the college admissions process with equal K-12 opportunities, it is reasonable for college admissions committees to use a variety of criteria including race.
 
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Inane point? The Asian model-minority stereotype has been thrown around this forum numerous, numerous times without a clear delineation of East Asian or Indian etc so I wouldn't necessarily call it inane (esp when that stereotype is present even within those communities sometimes).

It is inane because the basic point that poor black communities (including poor white and hispanic communities) could benefit from putting aside pride and learning from the examples set by successful minority communities is not lost if you just insert word "Indian" or "Chinese" in place of "Asian".

in my world view, studying hard and all the other things you mentioned are immensely important for future success. The point I'm making is that my family came to the US with these ideals already represented strongly for many generations, and the same can be said for many other successful East and South Asian families. What you're trying to do is take something that is almost second nature to some cultures (who incidentally arrived mostly in the post-civil rights act 70s and 80s and settled into liberal areas) and then question rather trivially "well, why can't this black person whose parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents have been subject to systemically racist, multi-generational disenfranchisement, discrimination, and/or poverty just go ahead and do what I did?"

Well let me ask you then, to what extent are the values that you recognize as immensely important to success being aggressively adopted by communities that have experienced this systemic disenfranchisement? I am not saying that in 2020 median black income needs to be on par with white income but how do we get there? Do we need to fix "systemic racism" and inequity before anything can be done? Or, are there values, methodologies and mindsets that can still produce results, even in oppressive, impoverished environments? I strongly believe in the latter which has become taboo to advocate for the reasons you outlined. These days there is so much Pied Piper propaganda from the affluent woke who normalize and rationalize failure in minority communities while privately keeping a separate set of values and expectations for themselves and their families. My advice to any black or brown minority is to not wait for the US government to create a level playing field, practice to play on an incline or risk getting left behind.

How about instead of trying to "distill traits and instill them into black youth," you first start with equalizing the material, tangible things you originally mentioned (access to good schools, basic needs etc)

How about doing both? But if you are a minority parent, one method is free and in your control while the other relies on strangers and the government.
 
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I think I'll leave it at that too. Many of us have strong opinions on this issue that are not likely to be swayed by comments on an anonymous internet forum. I appreciate the lively discussion though.
 

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The son of a former partner (now retired) had to settle for being an analyst at a hedge fund after his attempt at becoming a PGA golfer did not pan out. Over the years, that attempt at the PGA career easily cost 6 and possibly 7 figures. The opportunities for success in this country are not equal. Luck and good fortune have a lot to do with your chance of success. Some populations have a much higher likelihood of being lucky. For some people, a hedge fund career is the backup plan.
 
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The son of a former partner (now retired) had to settle for being an analyst at a hedge fund after his attempt at becoming a PGA golfer did not pan out. Over the years, that attempt at the PGA career easily cost 6 and possibly 7 figures. The opportunities for success in this country are not equal. Luck and good fortune have a lot to do with your chance of success. Some populations have a much higher likelihood of being lucky. For some people, a hedge fund career is the backup plan.
Abigail Fisher went to LSU and now works in finance. I wonder what she could’ve been (touch of sarcasm)
 
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Abigail Fisher went to LSU and now works in finance. I wonder what she could’ve been (touch of sarcasm)

Yup. And Allan Bakke actually prevailed and eventually became an anesthesiologist in Minnesota.
 
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It is inane because the basic point that poor black communities (including poor white and hispanic communities) could benefit from putting aside pride and learning from the examples set by successful minority communities is not lost if you just insert word "Indian" or "Chinese" in place of "Asian".

Again, it should be plainly obvious to you that the delineation isn't inane (especially in the context of the general article I quoted meant for broad consumption) because not all varying Asian immigrants are successful, but yet numerous people advocate "just do what the Asians do." If you are already familiar with the subcategories of East and South Asians who you think should be model-minorities, good for you- not everyone is.

Well let me ask you then, to what extent are the values that you recognize as immensely important to success being aggressively adopted by communities that have experienced this systemic disenfranchisement? I am not saying that in 2020 median black income needs to be on par with white income but how do we get there? Do we need to fix "systemic racism" and inequity before anything can be done? Or, are there values, methodologies and mindsets that can still produce results, even in oppressive, impoverished environments? I strongly believe in the latter which has become taboo to advocate for the reasons you outlined. These days there is so much Pied Piper propaganda from the affluent woke who normalize and rationalize failure in minority communities while privately keeping a separate set of values and expectations for themselves and their families. My advice to any black or brown minority is to not wait for the US government to create a level playing field, practice to play on an incline or risk getting left behind.
How about doing both? But if you are a minority parent, one method is free and in your control while the other relies on strangers and the government.

Listen, you can offer all the advice you want to poor communities. Send out all the mail and internet ads you want. Go door to door. Rent one of those planes and fly a banner over their neighborhoods that says "STUDY HARDER." It's a free country.

It's very easy to think these "free" condescending trivialities (like Jared "I inherited a fortune and my dad spent $2.5m to get me into Harvard" Kushner's claim that black people have first got to want to be successful) have much tangible benefit, but unfortunately you get what you pay for.
 

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You know a good way not to get shot at? Don't have a weapon.
My probablity of being shot by the police is 0 if my black counter part's risk is 3x that that still a pretty low number.
You live in Europe. You don’t count.
Haha.
But seriously do your police cary guns? What’s the number of people killed by police in your country last year?
 
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Bad analogy.

A better one, based on a true story™, is that for two hundred fifty years white folks are the only ones allowed on a particular train car, and they pay for their tickets with money stolen from black folks' uncompensated labor. Eventually, through strife, black folks win the right to ride the train, however they don't have enough money for first-class tickets. Are you going to tell me it's unjust for white folks to give some of the money back so everyone can ride up front?


Your analogy is completely flawed. A particular train car consists of descendants of former slave owners and slaves. Nobody on the train car has actually been a slave or a slave owner for generations. In addition, 1/3 of the people on the train car are "new" from out of town and have no relationship to slaves or slave owners. So, who should be forced to give money to whom and for what reason? To make my point even more clear, the vast majority of white folks can't afford first class tickets either.
 
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Your analogy is completely flawed. A particular train car consists of descendants of former slave owners and slaves. Nobody on the train car has actually been a slave or a slave owner for generations. In addition, 1/3 of the people on the train car are "new" from out of town and have no relationship to slaves or slave owners. So, who should be forced to give money to whom and for what reason? To make my point even more clear, the vast majority of white folks can't afford first class tickets either.

Again, it's an *analogy.* As I said earlier, don't take the reference to slavery part too literally since discrimination and economic and social disenfranchisement clearly did not end in 1865 nor in 1964. It is not an argument for reparations- it is an argument for affirmative action since the conditions that led to black people having worse access to schools and jobs can directly be traced back and shows causality
 
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Again, it's an *analogy.* As I said earlier, don't take the reference to slavery part too literally since discrimination and economic and social disenfranchisement clearly did not end in 1865 nor in 1964. It is not an argument for reparations- it is an argument for affirmative action since the conditions that led to black people having worse access to schools and jobs can directly be traced back and shows causality
.
I wonder if we had actual better history in this country if people would understand this better? Or do people actually know the true history and just ignore it?

I mean even in med school or residency we don’t generally get any kind of history of medicine lessons, especially in regards to racism. Just 10 years ago people were being forced to be sterilized (Black and brown women) in California that were in jail for example. That’s kinda important to know about when talking about counseling patients, bias, consent, importance of knowing patient understands, etc.

But it really seems like people just say, shrug, the US is the "land of the free" now so just shut up and bootstraps.
 
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Again, it's an *analogy.* As I said earlier, don't take the reference to slavery part too literally since discrimination and economic and social disenfranchisement clearly did not end in 1865 nor in 1964. It is not an argument for reparations- it is an argument for affirmative action since the conditions that led to black people having worse access to schools and jobs can directly be traced back and shows causality
At this point I think its a poverty-cycle issue more than anything (which can be argued was started by the various forms of discrimination you point out). I think you and I have talked about this before, in SC at least schools with more minorities than whites typically receive more money per student than white majority schools. They still under-perform. Part of that could be based on teacher pay (I don't know the figures for that) but I suspect a large part of it is the lack of home support. If mom has to work 2 jobs to support the family, I can't fault her for not being super-involved in school projects and homework. I know locally to me one of the struggling schools went to a year round model which seemed to help, but that stopped at 7th grade so I don't think the positive effects carried much past that. Lots of schools now have homework clubs afterschool but I don't know if they are wide spread enough to say whether or not they make a difference.

It seems to me that having extra optional programs at school would be a good starting place. If you are able to do enough for your kids, they don't need those programs so they don't have to stay longer. If not, the programs are there to make sure they keep up and get extra support if needed. Make them universal for every school, its race neutral that way which will calm some potential critics of the program. Also has the upside of being basically free additional child care for working parents and its a small enough step to not get conservatives up in arms about it.
 
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Ummmm, no. It doesn’t matter what your first statement is followed with. There are almost no reasons to riot, period. Are there reasons to be pissed? Are there reasons to protest? Sure. Are there reasons to riot? Essentially always no. A riot is an inherently disordered, irrational response. Destroying private property and stealing from people who in no way are related to the cause of the riot is insane

I agree that destroying private property and stealing from innocent people aren’t justified. I don’t mean to say that the way in which people are rioting during this "BLM" movement has been justified (e.g.: looting random stores and inciting violence against innocent people). Maybe I'm using the word "rioting" a little differently than you (perhaps incorrectly), but I can see why riots involving the affected parties may be a last-ditch effort to have your voice heard. When the deck is stacked against you and the rules are written by the other team, history has dictated that riots can sometimes bring about colossal change (see South Africa in the apartheid era, etc).
 

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Your analogy is completely flawed. A particular train car consists of descendants of former slave owners and slaves. Nobody on the train car has actually been a slave or a slave owner for generations. In addition, 1/3 of the people on the train car are "new" from out of town and have no relationship to slaves or slave owners. So, who should be forced to give money to whom and for what reason? To make my point even more clear, the vast majority of white folks can't afford first class tickets either.

So true. Also, some Americans are descendants of both white (gasp!) and black americans. They could have descended from both slaves and slave owners! Do they have to pay for reparations? Do they receive money from their evil white neighbor?

It would seem all white people in America had slaves, according to this idea, since all white people must pay for past sins. In reality, I believe less than 5% of Americans during slavery even owned slaves.
 

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So true. Also, some Americans are descendants of both white (gasp!) and black americans. They could have descended from both slaves and slave owners! Do they have to pay for reparations? Do they receive money from their evil white neighbor?

It would seem all white people in America had slaves, according to this idea, since all white people must pay for past sins. In reality, I believe less than 5% of Americans during slavery even owned slaves.

Well considering that slave owners raped their slaves and it wasn't a consensual relationship, no I don't think those people should have to pay reparations if that were to ever happen. Most children born as the result of such rape were still treated as slaves. I mean, sure some of the girls/women got to work in the plantation house and not in the fields, but they were still slaves.

I can't believe you're arguing here about the descendents of slave owners and them raping their slaves as an argument for not understanding why reparations might be appropriate and who should get them.

And you're 5% statistic is off if you look at the south.
Overall at least 1/3 of families in the south owned slaves. In states like MS and SC it was closer to 1/2 half of families owned slaves.
My grandmother is still alive and her parents were slaves for a short time. Her grandparents were definitely slaves all of their lives. Same with my grandfather that just died. His grandparents were slaves. I'm going to imagine many people on here have grandparents, can you imagine if they were slaves? Literal slaves. Slavery did not happen that long ago.

This is exactly what I'm talking about in regards to people not even knowing history and then spouting out nonsense.
 
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You live in Europe. You don’t count.
Haha.
But seriously do your police cary guns? What’s the number of people killed by police in your country last year?
Yes they carry guns and shoot them occasionally, sometimes killing someone who is often a minority/immigrant and who's community will invariably riot in protest...
 

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Well considering that slave owners raped their slaves and it wasn't a consensual relationship, no I don't think those people should have to pay reparations if that were to ever happen. Most children born as the result of such rape were still treated as slaves. I mean, sure some of the girls/women got to work in the plantation house and not in the fields, but they were still slaves.

I can't believe you're arguing here about the descendents of slave owners and them raping their slaves as an argument for not understanding why reparations might be appropriate and who should get them.

And you're 5% statistic is off if you look at the south.
Overall at least 1/3 of families in the south owned slaves. In states like MS and SC it was closer to 1/2 half of families owned slaves.
My grandmother is still alive and her parents were slaves for a short time. Her grandparents were definitely slaves all of their lives. Same with my grandfather that just died. His grandparents were slaves. I'm going to imagine many people on here have grandparents, can you imagine if they were slaves? Literal slaves. Slavery did not happen that long ago.

This is exactly what I'm talking about in regards to people not even knowing history and then spouting out nonsense.

That’s terrible about your grandparents, I can’t imagine.

Are you suggesting all Americans that have both black and white ancestry are the result of rape? That’s interesting...

Obviously there was more slavery in the South. The question I was trying to answer is, if you pick a random white person in the USA that dems are suggesting pay reparations, what is the likelihood their ancestors owned slaves?
 

Twiggidy

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I'm genuine surprised (but also not) that some people really don't think African Americans are owed "something". I all ears for any explanation. Affirmative action is the very least this country could do.

I mean, seriously, years and years of oppression if not overt some systemic and people throw up their arms when some black guy gets into Michigan. It's literally funny to me.
 
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Congress have never even "jointly" had a resolution to apologize for slavery, and quite honestly, if Dems win both chambers, do that before messing with the court.
 
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I'm genuine surprised (but also not) that some people really don't think African Americans are owed "something". I all ears for any explanation. Affirmative action is the very least this country could do.

I mean, seriously, years and years of oppression if not overt some systemic and people throw up their arms when some black guy gets into Michigan. It's literally funny to me.

By "owed" I assume you mean financial? Who pays for it? I'm all for financially supporting and giving back to people or people groups who have been marginalized. But you have to take, or disadvantage, a different group to pay for it. When does the cycle end?
 

Twiggidy

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By "owed" I assume you mean financial? Who pays for it? I'm all for financially supporting and giving back to people or people groups who have been marginalized. But you have to take, or disadvantage, a different group to pay for it. When does the cycle end?
I do wonder if this same logic was used when the Japanese were interned?

Like I said, a little bit of affirmative action is the very least bit of way to make amends. It's seriously bare minimum in my book.
 
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I'm genuine surprised (but also not) that some people really don't think African Americans are owed "something".
They should have be owed a lot when slavery was abolished, it's hard to make a case a few generations latter.
 
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I completely against from a practical standpoint on "paying back" or reparations. Not because its not morally justified, but it will do NOTHING to the current climate or the lives of those getting reparation. Let me be clear that I am against slavery, racism, etc.

I am a minority and 1st gen who came to the US who was systemically made fun of/picked on b/c of my race and perceived different skin color. The irony is about 99% of the people who picked on me and Robbed my family at gunpoint (twice waiting for the bus) when I was in middle school was black kids. This may shock some people but black people are just as racists as whites (from my experience much worse) but no one will ever say this. I know many black people, been to their get togethers and they will say the most racists jokes about blacks AND whites. But this would never fly at predominately white get togethers.

But to the topic of reparation, even though I disagree it would accomplish much, I would be all for it if this will finally shut down the persistent "woes me" scarlet letter some carry. I don't care if I pay 2x in taxes. Pick 1 Trillion and give every black person $20K with the agreement that we get rid of affirmative action. Stop talking about all the unjust of the past. Stop using the past as a crutch. Stop using the color of your skin as an excuse to not succeed.

This would be a small price to pay if we can move on and stop using race as a reason that holds a large group of people back. But I doubt this would change anything. This would just give people 20K in their pocket and they will be back on the welfare roll once the 20K runs out.

No different than if we forgave all student loans. In 20 years, we will just have another generation of whinny 20 year olds wondering why they have to pay their debt. Raise my taxes, spend 1.5 Trillon to forgive all loans, but ONLY if you get the government out of the loan business. Let students who want to go to college find a way to work to pay for college or some other way to get a private loan.
 
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I'm genuine surprised (but also not) that some people really don't think African Americans are owed "something". I all ears for any explanation. Affirmative action is the very least this country could do.

I mean, seriously, years and years of oppression if not overt some systemic and people throw up their arms when some black guy gets into Michigan. It's literally funny to me.

How is that funny? There isn’t a communal pot of money not owned by someone from which you can be given. By definition, you are saying that you think that you should be taking from others. Have I benefited from being white? Probably. Should I have to write a check because of it?
 
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I'm genuine surprised (but also not) that some people really don't think African Americans are owed "something". I all ears for any explanation. Affirmative action is the very least this country could do.

I mean, seriously, years and years of oppression if not overt some systemic and people throw up their arms when some black guy gets into Michigan. It's literally funny to me.


What a defeatist attitude that only serves to keep blacks towards the lower rung of society. I do not know of any events in history where a group on people lived at the lower rung of society, given $$$$, then suddenly moves up in society. American Indians gets special privileges/rights but I don't see any upward movements.

Talk about going down the rabbit hole. What should we give Hispanics for their perceived systemic oppression? Asians who were oppressed during WWII and Vietnam war?

Just look at New Orleans and post Katrina. Black areas and Vietnamese areas were given similar government help which really didn't amount to much. On one hand, the black areas still look uninhabitable. The Vietnamese communities are essentially rebuilt/thriving. Both areas dealt with almost total loss.

Pry all of the layers of excuses and it comes down to pride/hard work. Asians know that the government will not help much and take pride in making a better life for their families. Even if you gave the black communities 10x the amount of aid post Katrina, the results would be no different. The Asian communities have a history of being successful when given nothing. I would argue that these asian communities started on a much lower economic/social rung when they immigrated in the 70/80's vs the more established black communities from the same decades.

Bottom line in Pride, community, and Family are the differences when it comes to black vs asian communities. Yes, this is a generalization but a true one.
 
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  5. Your message is mostly quotes or spoilers.
  6. Your reply has occurred very quickly after a previous reply and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  7. This thread is locked.
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