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DREDAY

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Tzips said:
I'm with you there - I can't quite make that out. Maybe some dentists have split personalities and consider the "boss" and "employee" parts of themselves as distinct... :confused:

Guys pay attention to what your reading.


Dentists held about 153,000 jobs in 2002. About 2 in 5 dentists were self-employed. Almost all dentists work in private practice. According to the American Dental Association (ADA), about 80 percent of dentists in private practice are sole proprietors, and 13 percent belong to a partnership. A small number of salaried dentists work in hospitals and offices of physicians.


When it says that almost all dentists work in private practices, it didnt say almost all dentists own a private practice. It means that that "all dentist" includes both owners of the practice and their dentist employees. Come on guys read the writting and dont assume things from it. I wander what you guys got on the reading comp of the DAT. :rolleyes:
 

Tzips

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DREDAY said:
Guys pay attention to what your reading.


Dentists held about 153,000 jobs in 2002. About 2 in 5 dentists were self-employed. Almost all dentists work in private practice. According to the American Dental Association (ADA), about 80 percent of dentists in private practice are sole proprietors, and 13 percent belong to a partnership. A small number of salaried dentists work in hospitals and offices of physicians.


When it says that almost all dentists work in private practices, it doesnt mean they are the owners of the practice. It means they work as an employee for another dentist who owns the practice. Hence they earn a salary from the dentist who owns the business.
That's true; my confusion, however, stems from the fact that of the "almost all" dentists who are in private practice, 80% are the "sole proprietors", which I take to mean self-employed. And according to my math, 80% of "almost all" is more than 40% of all dentists. Unless I misunderstand what "sole proprietor" means.
 

egpndoc

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Tzips said:
That's true; my confusion, however, stems from the fact that of the "almost all" dentists who are in private practice, 80% are the "sole proprietors", which I take to mean self-employed. And according to my math, 80% of "almost all" is more than 40% of all dentists. Unless I misunderstand what "sole proprietor" means.
WHO CARES!!!! who care about any of this, each of us will make different salaries based upon whether we specialize or not, our location, our knowledge, and our business savvy. If you want to be a dentist because of the money, then go do something else, you won't liek it, but if you want to be a dentist because its the only job you will want to wake up and do every day of your life then dont worry about the money, the money will come with hard work. One dentist I shadowed made over $600K per year, and another dentist I shadowed for closed down his office because he went bankrupt. Take it with a grain fo salt and a shot of tequila.
 

velikimajmun

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DREDAY said:
Guys pay attention to what your reading.


Dentists held about 153,000 jobs in 2002. About 2 in 5 dentists were self-employed. Almost all dentists work in private practice. According to the American Dental Association (ADA), about 80 percent of dentists in private practice are sole proprietors, and 13 percent belong to a partnership. A small number of salaried dentists work in hospitals and offices of physicians.


When it says that almost all dentists work in private practices, it didnt say almost all dentists own a private practice. It means that that "all dentist" includes both owners of the practice and their dentist employees. Come on guys read the writting and dont assume things from it. I wander what you guys got on the reading comp of the DAT. :rolleyes:
Higher than you apparently...if almost all are in private practice and 80 % are sole proprietors (meaning they own it themselves) and 13% are in partnerships (meaning they own it together) then in no way can that mean that 60% are salaried employees to someone else. Their statement contradicts itself.
 

Tzips

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velikimajmun said:
Higher than you apparently...if almost all are in private practice and 80 % are sole proprietors (meaning they own it themselves) and 13% are in partnerships (meaning they own it together) then in no way can that mean that 60% are salaried employees to someone else. Their statement contradicts itself.
Exactly. Unless by "almost all" they mean 51% of all dentists... and even then it's a bit over 2/5 (40.8%, to be exact). And to the extent of my knowledge about the vernacular, "almost all" means way more than 51%. So I'm not sure what they are trying to say.

DREDAY, please don't cast aspersions on others' ability to understand Standard English, or other abilities; as I'm almost postive that I scored as well or better than you on the RC portion of the DAT, such remarks have a tendency to backfire. Besides, it's not polite. :cool:

And egpndoc - believe me, I'm not doing this because I think it has any practical bearing on anything; it's just the nit-picky editor in me who objects to inherently contradictory information. Sorry if that bothers you, but if it does, just ignore this thread.
 

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egpndoc said:
WHO CARES!!!! who care about any of this, each of us will make different salaries based upon whether we specialize or not, our location, our knowledge, and our business savvy. If you want to be a dentist because of the money, then go do something else, you won't liek it, but if you want to be a dentist because its the only job you will want to wake up and do every day of your life then dont worry about the money, the money will come with hard work. One dentist I shadowed made over $600K per year, and another dentist I shadowed for closed down his office because he went bankrupt. Take it with a grain fo salt and a shot of tequila.
FINALLY!! someone rational. right on.
 

egpndoc

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Tzips said:
Exactly. Unless by "almost all" they mean 51% of all dentists... and even then it's a bit over 2/5 (40.8%, to be exact). And to the extent of my knowledge about the vernacular, "almost all" means way more than 51%. So I'm not sure what they are trying to say.

DREDAY, please don't cast aspersions on others' ability to understand Standard English, or other abilities; as I'm almost postive that I scored as well or better than you on the RC portion of the DAT, such remarks have a tendency to backfire. Besides, it's not polite. :cool:

And egpndoc - believe me, I'm not doing this because I think it has any practical bearing on anything; it's just the nit-picky editor in me who objects to inherently contradictory information. Sorry if that bothers you, but if it does, just ignore this thread.
it doesnt bother me at all, i just think we should discuss other things that could benefit us, rather than money. lets help each other out iwht interviews, scholarships, details of each school, stuff like that. Know what I mean? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and anyone can discuss anything they want. good luck with everything
 

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DREDAY said:
Guys pay attention to what your reading.


Dentists held about 153,000 jobs in 2002. About 2 in 5 dentists were self-employed. Almost all dentists work in private practice. According to the American Dental Association (ADA), about 80 percent of dentists in private practice are sole proprietors, and 13 percent belong to a partnership. A small number of salaried dentists work in hospitals and offices of physicians.


When it says that almost all dentists work in private practices, it didnt say almost all dentists own a private practice. It means that that "all dentist" includes both owners of the practice and their dentist employees. Come on guys read the writting and dont assume things from it. I wander what you guys got on the reading comp of the DAT. :rolleyes:
You meant ... you're reading; and you meant wonder, not wander, right? :laugh: Sorry, my RC is really bad!
 
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DREDAY

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you guys are clearly misunderstanding the statement. How bout you guys spend about 30 minutes analyzing the breakdown of all the statistics on the website.... and the numbers will make sense. Its really funny how people who are passionate about something think with their hearts instead of their brain.
 

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DREDAY said:
I hope you guys don't attempt in arguing with the U.S. Department of Labor.
You can't be serious. Are you actually, by default, siding with the same government that brought us the IRS and Form W-1040?
 

velikimajmun

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DREDAY said:
you guys are clearly misunderstanding the statement. How bout you guys spend about 30 minutes analyzing the breakdown of all the statistics on the website.... and the numbers will make sense. Its really funny how people who are passionate about something think with their hearts instead of their brain.
I did and it contradicts itself several times. We aren't misunderstanding anything nor are we thinking with our hearts ($120,000+ is fine with me). The point is that you continue to draw false conclusions from contradictory information while promoting it as fact.
 
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DREDAY

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Fair enough, I will email BLS and ask them to clarify the statement they made.

Dentists held about 153,000 jobs in 2002. About 2 in 5 dentists were self-employed. Almost all dentists work in private practice. According to the American Dental Association (ADA), about 80 percent of dentists in private practice are sole proprietors, and 13 percent belong to a partnership. A small number of salaried dentists work in hospitals and offices of physicians.
 
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DREDAY

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OK if you guys are so sure about what you say please explain this...

the total number of dentists in the US is 153,00. BLS surveyed 98,800 dentists which are "employed" dentists. THat still accounts for 64.5 % of the total dentist pool.
 

Tzips

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DREDAY said:
According to the American Dental Association (ADA), about 80 percent of dentists in private practice are sole proprietors, and 13 percent belong to a partnership. A small number of salaried dentists work in hospitals and offices of physicians.
Well, there's the answer. ADA obviously has different stats than BLS, and the poor fools at the latter neglected to proof-read their publication carefully enough...

Enough; I think even I am beginning to get sick of a topic that has already been debated ad nauseum ;)
 

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TO BE EXACT IT STATES

The jobs that pay the most require at least a four-year college degree. According to the Employment Policy Foundation, the nation's 12 top-paying jobs -- and the mean annual income reported in 2003 (the most recent year data was available) for each -- were:

Physicians and surgeons $147,000
Aircraft pilots $133,500
Chief executives $116,000
Electrical and electronic engineers $112,000
Lawyers and judges $99,800
Dentists $90,000
Pharmacists $85,500
Management analysts $84,700
Computer and information system managers $83,000
Financial analysts, managers and advisers $84,000
Marketing and sales managers $80,000
Education administrators $80,000

i didn't know pilots make so much....
 

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Tzips said:
Well, there's the answer. ADA obviously has different stats than BLS, and the poor fools at the latter neglected to proof-read their publication carefully enough...

Enough; I think even I am beginning to get sick of a topic that has already been debated ad nauseum ;)

Hey look guys he is telling the truth. DREDAY is not a troll on this particular thread. Just think of it this way, Do you think that the average salary dentist in NYC is making more than 90K? No Way! He is right and just like I explained before this is just for salaried dentist. The owners who take risks are the people who make the flow and that is all that has to be said.Just look it up.
Later.

oncogene
 

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oncogene said:
Hey look guys he is telling the truth. DREDAY is not a troll on this particular thread. Just think of it this way, Do you think that the average salary dentist in NYC is making more than 90K? No Way! He is right and just like I explained before this is just for salaried dentist. The owners who take risks are the people who make the flow and that is all that has to be said.Just look it up.
Later.

oncogene
Job ID 1622
Position Type Full-Time Employee
Company Name Hamilton County Government
Location Chattanooga, TN
Salary $75K -$90K
Date Posted January 28, 2005
Experience 0-1 Years Experience

View Hamilton County Government profile and job listings




Provides preventive, restorative and emergency dental care to residents of Hamilton County.


Definition: Employees in this classification are under general supervision to provide professional preventive, restorative and emergency dental care to residents living in Hamilton County. Performs other related duties as assigned.


Minimum Qualifications: A Doctor of Dental Medicine Degree or Doctor of Dental Surgery plus required Tennessee Dental Board License, DEA Certificate and CPR Certification. Applicant must be able to effectively communicate in both oral and written form.


*FULL TIME EMPLOYEES ARE ELIGIBLE FOR MEDICAL/LIFE INSURANCE, PAID

LEAVE, HOLIDAYS, AND PAID RETIREMENT BENEFITS


Effective September 1, 2004, as a condition of employment, all newly employed individuals will receive their paychecks by way of direct deposit.


Applications will be accepted from Monday, January 31, 2005 until the position is filled.

Please visit our website at www.hamiltontn.gov for additional information and an application. Only printed website or original applications are acceptable. To receive an application by mail, please call (423) 209-6120.


We are an Equal Opportunity Employer

Associate Dentist

Ref# : Cape Girardeau, MO Are you not qualified for this position?


Category: Dental
Sub-Category: General Dentist
Location: Cape Girardeau, Missouri
Experience: Entry Level
Education: Doctorate

Description:
Associate Dentist Needed-Must be comfortable performing surgical extractions. High volume environment. General Practice that performs extractions, implants, partials, dentures and related services. Lab is located on site. Good chair side manner is a must. May consider Part Time Dentist but prefer Full Time. Compensation for Full Time Dentist would include: base salary, bonus potential, paid health, life, and malpractice insurance as well as continuing education. Also included is a 401K plan with matching funds! Opportunities also available in other locations. Contact Brian Whitley at 1-800-313-3863 ext. 2290 or email [email protected]


Job Status: fulltime
Job Type: Permanent
Key Skills: Good Chair Side is a must. Must be comfortable with high volume of extractions.
No. of Openings: 1
Salary: $75 - $100K Per Year


Company Information
Affordable Care Inc.
4990 Hwy 70 West
Kinston, North Carolina
USA 28504 Contact:
Brian Whitley
Phone: 1-800-313-3863-(2290)
Fax: 252-527-7384
 

Tzips

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oncogene said:
Hey look guys he is telling the truth. DREDAY is not a troll on this particular thread. Just think of it this way, Do you think that the average salary dentist in NYC is making more than 90K? No Way! He is right and just like I explained before this is just for salaried dentist. The owners who take risks are the people who make the flow and that is all that has to be said.Just look it up.
Later.

oncogene
I'm not questioning the salary figures, though I do think they're a bit low for anyone more than a year or two out of residency; I'm simply arguing that the statement about the number of self-employed v. salaried dentists that he, or rather, BLS, made is impossible without redefining one or more terms used in the statement. While I agree that this is a nit-picky, comepletely useless arguement, I'm surprised that no one but velikimajmun and I picked up on the obvious contradiction. Perhaps it's because the brighter people were smart enough to stay out of this whole thing :p .

<That being the case, Tzips quietly exits the thread and pretends to be smart, hoping that others have not noticed her unfortunate lapse into obsessive arguements about minutiae>
 

dental pilot

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i didn't know pilots make so much....
Well, some do, many don't. While the average pilot pay on the scale at a major airline (United, American, Delta, etc.) is probably about 133k, though being cut even more every few months, the pay scale at "regional" airlines, such as American Eagle and Delta Connection, starts as low as 15k and rarely goes above 80k. In the current hiring market, pilots are now spending 10-20 years at this lower pay rate before they even start at the higher scale with a "major" airline. So the figure doesn't take into account the career timeline, which would make the average much less.

In the case dentists making an average of 90k, obviously not all were surveyed, and many factors were obviously not taken into account. The same is true for the pilot number, and probably every other profession on the list.
 
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DREDAY

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So I called the BLS and spoke to the person who runs the survey. I will break down what BLS meant by the statement

Dentists held about 153,000 jobs in 2002. About 2 in 5 dentists were self-employed. Almost all dentists work in private practice. According to the American Dental Association (ADA), about 80 percent of dentists in private practice are sole proprietors, and 13 percent belong to a partnership. A small number of salaried dentists work in hospitals and offices of physicians.


Basically to get the total number of dentists in the United States (153,000), the BLS used data from the national employment matrix which combines data from occupational statistics survey (unemployment insurance universe) and current population survey (census).

The reason why we were arguing the -self-employed- issue is because the BLS has a different definition of self-employed. Lynch, the lady a I spoke with said that the BLS marked as "self-employed" those individuals that are not registered with the unemployment insurance universe. So 2/5 dentists do not register with the unemployment insurance universe.

So the discrepancy comes when they put the statement that 80% of dentists are sole proprietors which is data acquired by the ADA. Lynch told me that because the BLS uses a different definition, their number are different.

If you guys want Lynch's number for your own clarification pm me .
 

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I do find it interesting that everyone claims dentists make the big bucks, but the statistics never show it. I do think statistics are a crock anyway. Who cares.
 

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All you people who believe your income is going to peak around $85,000 are going to be very pleasantly surprised.
 

busupshot83

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DREDAY said:
According to MSN, dentistry is the 6th highest paying proffession in the United States at $90,000 / year with physicians and surgeons being the highest paying proffession at $147,000 / year. Take a look at which other proffessions pay more than dentistry.

http://msn.careerbuilder.com/Custom/MSN/CareerAdvice/472.htm?siteid=cbmsnhp4457&sc_extcmp=JS_js7_feb05_home1&GT1=6158&cbRecursionCnt=1&cbsid=47766ca6549d4e9e90a3e36829c26d6a-161155208-wb-2
I don't care... I'll take a dentist's lifestyle anyday over any of those careers.
 

ItsGavinC

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toofache32 said:
You can't be serious. Are you actually, by default, siding with the same government that brought us the IRS and Form W-1040?
Agreed, and that was my initial point.
 

ItsGavinC

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Kiluminati said:
I do find it interesting that everyone claims dentists make the big bucks, but the statistics never show it.
Mmmm, okay. Actually, they show it all over the place.
 

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all i know . . . is that i've been working for dentists for a long time and am finally starting school in the fall . . . if the dentists i worked for only made $90,000 per year they would be extremely upset - a couple of them make well over $500,000 per year - i don't know where they are getting these stats from?
 

Ozzman

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i dont know why no one is looking at my math...

"on average a patient will spend 100-300 a visit.. its safe to say a fair dentist will get 3 visits a day.. at 200 a visit he/she averages 600 a day...

600 times 5 days = 3000 a week.. an average of 4 weeks a month = 12000 a month times 12 months = 144000"
 

toofache32

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Ozzman said:
i dont know why no one is looking at my math...

"on average a patient will spend 100-300 a visit.. its safe to say a fair dentist will get 3 visits a day.. at 200 a visit he/she averages 600 a day...

600 times 5 days = 3000 a week.. an average of 4 weeks a month = 12000 a month times 12 months = 144000"
3 visits a day? Where do you get this from? Try 3 visits every hour or two depending on what each "visit" entails. I'm not sure where you get this. If we're talking averages, then you should also factor in the fact that the average dentist only works 3.5 days per week, according to the ADA.
 

Ozzman

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toofache32 said:
3 visits a day? Where do you get this from? Try 3 visits every hour or two depending on what each "visit" entails. I'm not sure where you get this. If we're talking averages, then you should also factor in the fact that the average dentist only works 3.5 days per week, according to the ADA.

the thing is i wanted to use the lowest and most plasable number i knew to be near 100 percent true... my point was that if a dentist wanted to only do 3 visits a day and instead work 5 days he/she could still easily pull in above 90k hence bunking that stat easily...

without a doubt most dentist do more then 3 a day and work about 4 days a week.. (mine does at least) but i wanted easy to understand math cause i couldnt understand why no else doesnt just do the simple math like i just did...
 

KY2007

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oncogene said:
Job ID 1622
Position Type Full-Time Employee
Company Name Hamilton County Government
Location Chattanooga, TN
Salary $75K -$90K
Date Posted January 28, 2005
Experience 0-1 Years Experience

View Hamilton County Government profile and job listings




Provides preventive, restorative and emergency dental care to residents of Hamilton County.


Definition: Employees in this classification are under general supervision to provide professional preventive, restorative and emergency dental care to residents living in Hamilton County. Performs other related duties as assigned.


Minimum Qualifications: A Doctor of Dental Medicine Degree or Doctor of Dental Surgery plus required Tennessee Dental Board License, DEA Certificate and CPR Certification. Applicant must be able to effectively communicate in both oral and written form.


*FULL TIME EMPLOYEES ARE ELIGIBLE FOR MEDICAL/LIFE INSURANCE, PAID

LEAVE, HOLIDAYS, AND PAID RETIREMENT BENEFITS


Effective September 1, 2004, as a condition of employment, all newly employed individuals will receive their paychecks by way of direct deposit.


Applications will be accepted from Monday, January 31, 2005 until the position is filled.

Please visit our website at www.hamiltontn.gov for additional information and an application. Only printed website or original applications are acceptable. To receive an application by mail, please call (423) 209-6120.


We are an Equal Opportunity Employer

Associate Dentist

Ref# : Cape Girardeau, MO Are you not qualified for this position?


Category: Dental
Sub-Category: General Dentist
Location: Cape Girardeau, Missouri
Experience: Entry Level
Education: Doctorate

Description:
Associate Dentist Needed-Must be comfortable performing surgical extractions. High volume environment. General Practice that performs extractions, implants, partials, dentures and related services. Lab is located on site. Good chair side manner is a must. May consider Part Time Dentist but prefer Full Time. Compensation for Full Time Dentist would include: base salary, bonus potential, paid health, life, and malpractice insurance as well as continuing education. Also included is a 401K plan with matching funds! Opportunities also available in other locations. Contact Brian Whitley at 1-800-313-3863 ext. 2290 or email [email protected]


Job Status: fulltime
Job Type: Permanent
Key Skills: Good Chair Side is a must. Must be comfortable with high volume of extractions.
No. of Openings: 1
Salary: $75 - $100K Per Year


Company Information
Affordable Care Inc.
4990 Hwy 70 West
Kinston, North Carolina
USA 28504 Contact:
Brian Whitley
Phone: 1-800-313-3863-(2290)
Fax: 252-527-7384
Just so you know associates are mostly dentists that just graduated or dentists that have owned their own practice at some point but are now semi-retired. Also, just like every other profession their are people who want to screw you (take all the profits). $75000-100000 is pretty much the going rate for someone just out of school. However, you should also take notice that these same people are always looking for associates because the ones that they hire either buy in or leave once they are comfortable enough with their skills to go and start their own practice. By 3-5 years out pretty much everyone owns their own practice in some way shape or form, and when they do they don't make 100,000. General dentists that have been working for 10-15 years easily average over 200,000. Last year on ASDA day there were reps from some firm in Florida that only hired newly graduated dentists. They were offering 55 dollars per hour. There was no buy in potential here but you still make over 100,000.
 

mwsung

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hey guys, let's not waste our precious time debating on this $$$ issue.

Once you become a dentist, you will SEE how much dentists make!!!!
 

Ozzman

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btw there are different price lines for where you live...

a really nice house in georgia would be 125 k.. where it would easily be 800k somewhere in Cali.. so yea.. keep that in mind..
 

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Here is a link to practices for sale. I can help you with the math if you need. With the industry standard of 65%overhead that everyone seems to agree on a practice that produces 500K will net about 175k/year for the dentist. This 65% overhead generaly accounts for the business loans, insurances (health and malpractice), building costs, many times retirement packages along with many other "expenses" that the dentist pays through the practice (auto loan, continueing ed in vegas, golf). Sure many practices don't generate 500k but many, many produce that if not substantially more. I think that we can all agree that the governmental pages statistics are a little skewed.
http://www.dentaltown.com/classifiedAds.asp?category=2&first=no
 

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oncogene

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TucsonDDS said:
Here is a link to practices for sale. I can help you with the math if you need. With the industry standard of 65%overhead that everyone seems to agree on a practice that produces 500K will net about 175k/year for the dentist. This 65% overhead generaly accounts for the business loans, insurances (health and malpractice), building costs, many times retirement packages along with many other "expenses" that the dentist pays through the practice (auto loan, continueing ed in vegas, golf). Sure many practices don't generate 500k but many, many produce that if not substantially more. I think that we can all agree that the governmental pages statistics are a little skewed.
http://www.dentaltown.com/classifiedAds.asp?category=2&first=no

The OP is refering to dentist who work for a SALARY. Most of the salaried dentist are new grads and some aren't. Dentist that own their practice or a portion of a practice will no doubt make more money. Therfore the government stats are for the most part accurate. What you are refering to is totally different.
 

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ItsGavinC said:
Mmmm, okay. Actually, they show it all over the place.
Really? Last time I checked the only dentist earnings that show the big bucks are the ADA reports. Everyone else shows the numbers to be a bit lower.
 

TucsonDDS

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oncogene said:
The OP is refering to dentist who work for a SALARY. Most of the salaried dentist are new grads and some aren't. Dentist that own their practice or a portion of a practice will no doubt make more money. Therfore the government stats are for the most part accurate. What you are refering to is totally different.


I would imagine that his numbers are pretty accurate than. Associate and just plain old employees don't make all that much money in the grand scheme of dentistry, but then again the pediatric attending physicians that I work with at the hospital make someware around 110k depending on how long they have been there. not much better
 

ItsGavinC

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Kiluminati said:
Really? Last time I checked the only dentist earnings that show the big bucks are the ADA reports. Everyone else shows the numbers to be a bit lower.
There've been multiple articles recently, from CNN to the Wall Street Journal to CBS MarketWatch.

But as has been pointed out, none of this matters much. It's just a fun way to waste time rather than study for my oral path exam. :D
 

Fullosseousflap

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ItsGavinC said:
There've been multiple articles recently, from CNN to the Wall Street Journal to CBS MarketWatch.

But as has been pointed out, none of this matters much. It's just a fun way to waste time rather than study for my oral path exam. :D
I feel your PAIN! :eek: