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Ummm... Why should I even bother to change my career... If this is true, I can ...talk down to the dentists, can't I? ;)
 

The Candidate

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DREDAY said:
According to MSN, dentistry is the 6th highest paying proffession in the United States at $90,000 / year with physicians and surgeons being the highest paying proffession at $147,000 / year. Take a look at which other proffessions pay more than dentistry.

http://msn.careerbuilder.com/Custom/MSN/CareerAdvice/472.htm?siteid=cbmsnhp4457&sc_extcmp=JS_js7_feb05_home1&GT1=6158&cbRecursionCnt=1&cbsid=47766ca6549d4e9e90a3e36829c26d6a-161155208-wb-2
I learned few days ago from a professor at my local Medical School, that Dentists are now generally, earn more than physicians in average - as far as the take homes. I think he factored in malpractice insuarance... which is a big chunk of physician's paycheck, compared to Dentists.
 
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Fullosseousflap

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DREDAY said:
According to MSN, dentistry is the 6th highest paying proffession in the United States at $90,000 / year with physicians and surgeons being the highest paying proffession at $147,000 / year. Take a look at which other proffessions pay more than dentistry.

http://msn.careerbuilder.com/Custom/MSN/CareerAdvice/472.htm?siteid=cbmsnhp4457&sc_extcmp=JS_js7_feb05_home1&GT1=6158&cbRecursionCnt=1&cbsid=47766ca6549d4e9e90a3e36829c26d6a-161155208-wb-2
Your stats are sadly out of date.

There is another thread someplace here that was discussing this....

But...got to run off to drill!
 
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DREDAY

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actually if you take time to read the report you will find out that it was for incomes in 2003. I ran into this article yesterday on the HEAD page of msn.com. If you go on MSN.com today it will probably still be there.
 
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DREDAY

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and yes I have have read a number of other statistics which state different avg salaries for dentists. This is the most current article so I thought it would be of interest to others to look at it as well.
 
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DREDAY

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Fullosseousflap said:
Your stats are sadly out of date.

There is another thread someplace here that was discussing this....

But...got to run off to drill!



like i told JAMES D, look at the date of publication of data... it was avg incomes in 2003.
 
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DREDAY

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JamesD said:
Yes it was published in 2004 but the data is from years ago.

READ AGAIN BUDDY ITS FROM INCOMES IN 2003!
 
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DREDAY

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TO BE EXACT IT STATES

The jobs that pay the most require at least a four-year college degree. According to the Employment Policy Foundation, the nation's 12 top-paying jobs -- and the mean annual income reported in 2003 (the most recent year data was available) for each -- were:

Physicians and surgeons $147,000
Aircraft pilots $133,500
Chief executives $116,000
Electrical and electronic engineers $112,000
Lawyers and judges $99,800
Dentists $90,000
Pharmacists $85,500
Management analysts $84,700
Computer and information system managers $83,000
Financial analysts, managers and advisers $84,000
Marketing and sales managers $80,000
Education administrators $80,000
 

USAF_Dentman

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what the **** are you trying to prove, BUDDY?

Who cares, we all know the real deal behind incomes..
 
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DREDAY

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what am i trying to prove? lol hahah just that you make a fool of youself when you argue without a basis for your arguements. before posting.... make sure you have grounds for what you say. Read a person's entire post before accusing them of anything. All I am doing is providing an additional resource of information that might interest other SDN'ers. If this topic doesnt interest you.... dont post nor read the post.
 
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ItsGavinC

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DREDAY said:
READ AGAIN BUDDY ITS FROM INCOMES IN 2003!
True, but it says NOTHING of sample size or qualifications to be included in the sample.

Maybe it is only for first-year graduates (where 90k would be a great average and is probably close to the first-year average).

The data is not correct, however, when the entire profession is viewed as a whole. So while we don't know how the data was obtained or anything about the sample, we do know that it should not be taken as solid evidence of anything.
 

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ItsGavinC said:
True, but it says NOTHING of sample size or qualifications to be included in the sample.

Maybe it is only for first-year graduates (where 90k would be a great average and is probably close to the first-year average).

The data is not correct, however, when the entire profession is viewed as a whole. So while we don't know how the data was obtained or anything about the sample, we do know that it should not be taken as solid evidence of anything.
The Data is only counting salaried workers. The majority of dentist own their own practice and make on average 50-60,000 more a year. This also true of physicians. I do think that the data is correct for salaried workers. This includes starting salaries and probably government jobs. This accounts for the low numbers. Later
 

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Sorry, but i just hate these types of threads. Its as if people are trying to somehow degrade dentists...or something else. Its just throwing gas on the fire... :rolleyes:
 

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actually from what i know most dentists give THEMSELVES salary and put the rest into their "company" which would be their dental practice, this is done for tax reasons... which makes since if you think about it. i recently had a major bridge job done at 6 grand... which was cheap for what was done.. on average a patient will spend 100-300 a visit.. its safe to say a fair dentist will get 3 visits a day.. at 200 a visit he/she averages 600 a day...

600 times 5 days = 3000 a week.. an average of 4 weeks a month = 12000 a month times 12 months = 144000

as u can see slightly above 90k no ;)..

but yea this is all assuming all their work is only 200 a person and 3 people a day... im sure they get cases like me who give them a nice chunk of change more then a few times a year... plus figure in a good amount of 300-500 dollar jobs and its easily above 90k a year...

but it all does depend on where you work and how good or likeable of a dentist you are.. my dentist back in LA (my school is not in my home town) teachs at USC and is very well exprienced.. he charges a good amount more than most dentist.. yet he is swamped with work because well... he is good.. he knows his stuff.. he gave me the easiest tooth pulling ive ever had, hit the perfect nerve with the first shot, let the gums slightly numb then hit the other shots a min later.. i felt nothing whats so ever.. he was worth the extra money... he is probably pulling in 300k and up...

but yea i want to be a dentist because i know what it takes to be a patient and am quite comfortable with the job since ive been around them since ive been a kid, and will be well into my 20s it seems.. :-/ oh well at least il know the field pretty well..
 

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personally i would rather have the public assuming that we make LESS. It makes it more justifyable to charge what we want for various procedures. you know just so we can scrape by :D

seriously though it seems that income figures pop up in dentistry threads like 10x compared to the medical forums...
 

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i think doctors may get paid more than dentists but not even all doctors..nevertheless, u can say that dentists get paid more per hour than doctors do b/c if u think about..dentists set their own office times (usually 8-5) but doctors have to work round the clock. so for an 8-5 job, dentists get paid real well :)
 
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DREDAY

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Ozzman said:
actually from what i know most dentists give THEMSELVES salary and put the rest into their "company" which would be their dental practice, this is done for tax reasons... which makes since if you think about it. i recently had a major bridge job done at 6 grand... which was cheap for what was done.. on average a patient will spend 100-300 a visit.. its safe to say a fair dentist will get 3 visits a day.. at 200 a visit he/she averages 600 a day...

600 times 5 days = 3000 a week.. an average of 4 weeks a month = 12000 a month times 12 months = 144000

as u can see slightly above 90k no ;)..

but yea this is all assuming all their work is only 200 a person and 3 people a day... im sure they get cases like me who give them a nice chunk of change more then a few times a year... plus figure in a good amount of 300-500 dollar jobs and its easily above 90k a year...

but it all does depend on where you work and how good or likeable of a dentist you are.. my dentist back in LA (my school is not in my home town) teachs at USC and is very well exprienced.. he charges a good amount more than most dentist.. yet he is swamped with work because well... he is good.. he knows his stuff.. he gave me the easiest tooth pulling ive ever had, hit the perfect nerve with the first shot, let the gums slightly numb then hit the other shots a min later.. i felt nothing whats so ever.. he was worth the extra money... he is probably pulling in 300k and up...

but yea i want to be a dentist because i know what it takes to be a patient and am quite comfortable with the job since ive been around them since ive been a kid, and will be well into my 20s it seems.. :-/ oh well at least il know the field pretty well..

Out of that 144k the dentist has to pay his office, his employees, his supplies, his bills, his malpractice, everything. Take that into account as well.
 

Fullosseousflap

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DREDAY said:
Out of that 144k the dentist has to pay his office, his employees, his supplies, his bills, his malpractice, everything. Take that into account as well.
Negatory and your data is just wrong!

The average general private practice dentists I know (out of school say 5 years) gross at least 50-60-K per month.

Average overhead of 65% ----- leaves ......17.5 - 21K Net per month.

Energetic general practice dentists and all specialists make way more.
 
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DREDAY

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Fullosseousflap said:
Negatory and your data is just wrong!

The average general private practice dentists I know (out of school say 5 years) gross at least 50-60-K per month.

Average overhead of 65% ----- leaves ......17.5 - 21K Net per month.

Energetic general practice dentists and all specialists make way more.

thats funny.. why dont you show me some statistics instead of "specific" cases of people you supposedly know. I provided statistical data run by an unbiassed non profit organization. Plus I am not advocating them being 100% right or wrong. Its just food for thought. so before you run your moth and tell me my data is wrong, how bout you show me some statistical analysis done by a recognizable and reputable organization... and then we can talk.

I can also name a doctors that make 500k a year, but that doesnt make the average salary for a doctor 500k. statistics, especially coming from an unbiassed org, speaks alot louder than no " i know someone..." cases like you have presented.
 
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Fullosseousflap

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DREDAY said:
thats funny.. why dont you show me some statistics instead of "specific" cases of people you supposedly know. I provided statistical data run by an unbiassed non profit organization. Plus I am not advocating them being 100% right or wrong. Its just food for thought. so before you run your moth and tell me my data is wrong, how bout you show me some statistical analysis done by a recognizable and reputable organization... and then we can talk.
Ok, fair enough.

I will present some evidence but anecdotally you are still wrong.

Be right back!
 
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DREDAY

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its kinda like ..... "statistical data say that 60% of people who dont brush get caries" but someone like you would say .... well i dont believe it because i have friends who never brush their teeth and dont have caries. .... come on man give me a break..
 
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DREDAY

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EVEN BETTER I FOUND what seems to be a more ACCURATE STATISTICS DONE ON EMPLOYMENT WAGES... ITS A GOVERNMENT WEBSITE THAT DOES NATIONWIDE STATISTICS AND BREAKS THEM DOWN.. ITS AS OF NOVEMBER 2003.. TAKE A LOOK AND TELL ME WHAT YOU GUYS THINK...... CHECK OUT THE LINK... sorry bout the caps


http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291020.htm#nat
 

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According to the ADA:

The average net income for an independent private practitioner who owned all or part of his or her practice in 2001 was $173,140 for a general practitioner and $275,270 for a specialist.

http://www.ada.org/ada/prod/survey/faq.asp


Is that "recognizable and reputable" enough for you?
 
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DREDAY

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Dukie said:
According to the ADA:

The average net income for an independent private practitioner who owned all or part of his or her practice in 2001 was $173,140 for a general practitioner and $275,270 for a specialist.

http://www.ada.org/ada/prod/survey/faq.asp


Is that "recognizable and reputable" enough for you?

actually no... ADA is biassed statistics because its from a dental organization.
 

Fullosseousflap

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its kinda like ..... "statistical data say that 60% of people who dont brush get caries" but someone like you would say .... well i dont believe it because i have friends who never brush their teeth and dont have caries. .... come on man give me a break..
Here is a recent article from the Wall Street Journal:

Read it here.

And here is a graph from the article:

 
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DREDAY

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how bout you guys take a look at that last link... its really good.... and it breaks the statistcs down alot more accurately than any of the links you guys pasted. also.... you can read up on how they ran the statistics, what parameters they used and so forth. Plus its unbiassed as they used the same parameters for every occupation.
 
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DREDAY

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I hope you guys don't attempt in arguing with the U.S. Department of Labor. They ran the statistics in November 2003. You guys should also pay close attention that in these statistics the mean wage is calculated for general dental practicioners and specialists together. I dont think you can get more accurate and unbiassed results than the U.S. Department of Labor.

Here is the link again, in case you guys would like to read it over one more time. In addition it gives a break down by state, and position the dentist holds (whether gov employee, hospital, or private practice). enjoy :)

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291020.htm

and so you guys can have fun comparing heere is the wage for general practicioner medical physicians. If you guys are interested in comparing specialties, go on the website and look for it.. every specialty with detailed breakdown can be found.

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291062.htm
 

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Let me be the tenth to say that these posts are ridiculous and childish.

I want to add the following... MDs and dentists in different locations make different salaries. Sheesh! And most importantly, the more business savvy you are, the more you will potentially make... for any profession. You can't make money if you can't sell your services. So these statistics are useless because they are just averages of a whole mess of people, those with and without business skills.
 
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jlaha said:
Let me be the tenth to say that these posts are ridiculous and childish.

I want to add the following... MDs and dentists in different locations make different salaries. Sheesh! And most importantly, the more business savvy you are, the more you will potentially make... for any profession. You can't make money if you can't sell your services. So these statistics are useless because they are just averages of a whole mess of people, those with and without business skills.
Just like DAT and MCAT averages...they are just averages. There are plenty of people on both sides of the spectrum.
 
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Honestly, does arguing over the average dentist salary in 2003 really serve a purpose? Averages or other statistics are sometimes decieving, and too many variables exist to say...ok, I am done with dental school, where is my 173,000 check, just because that is some listed average. In my opinion, looking at specific examples in the region that one would like to practice is almost a better gauge of future salary then the ADA average. You can see how much room exists to build a practice as well as how well past dentists have done, for that location. Furthermore, alll I care is that I can pay off my student loans and live comfortably, while doing a job I enjoy and get excited about. The difference between making 90,000 a year and 173,000 (although large) is like the difference between making 6 million and 12 million a year. The latter just gets to buy a bigger boat, cuz 90k is plent to live on.
 
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DREDAY

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bspeedy00 said:
Honestly, does arguing over the average dentist salary in 2003 really serve a purpose? Averages or other statistics are sometimes decieving, and too many variables exist to say...ok, I am done with dental school, where is my 173,000 check, just because that is some listed average. In my opinion, looking at specific examples in the region that one would like to practice is almost a better gauge of future salary then the ADA average. You can see how much room exists to build a practice as well as how well past dentists have done, for that location. Furthermore, alll I care is that I can pay off my student loans and live comfortably, while doing a job I enjoy and get excited about. The difference between making 90,000 a year and 173,000 (although large) is like the difference between making 6 million and 12 million a year. The latter just gets to buy a bigger boat, cuz 90k is plent to live on.


I agree with you.... the link I sent also breaks the statistics down by region and type of employment.
 

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listen guys and girls....

stats are biased because of the people that are reporting them.....

many dentists prob dont make that much on "paper" to keep insurance, taxes, etc down....i really dont think that GPs make less than 100k per year, how do you think they are able to work 4-5 days a week, payoff loans (school or practice), pay overhead of the practice, employees, etc and still live a pretty decent life?

the numbers dont add up, right?

no dentist can get by with the kind of overhead they have by only 90k a year....thats what i think/my opinion, and i dont have stats to prove it so dont ask me to provide them.
 

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DREDAY said:
I hope you guys don't attempt in arguing with the U.S. Department of Labor. They ran the statistics in November 2003. You guys should also pay close attention that in these statistics the mean wage is calculated for general dental practicioners and specialists together. I dont think you can get more accurate and unbiassed results than the U.S. Department of Labor.
Are you kidding? There stats only apply to SALARIED dentists, which VERY few are. The average salaried dentist is 1-3 years out of school.

When somebody mentions "dentist," they aren't thinking of a salaried worker, which is what the BLS is running stats on.
 

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bspeedy00 said:
The difference between making 90,000 a year and 173,000 (although large) is like the difference between making 6 million and 12 million a year. The latter just gets to buy a bigger boat, cuz 90k is plent to live on.
I'm curious as to the amount of your loans if 90k a year is plenty to live on?

After taxes, you'll see 60k. After student loans each month, you'll have 48k. That's 4k a month.

Much better than many people, but not wealthy by any means. Throw in a car payment, a mortgage, savings, and you're left with little to nothing.
 

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Fullosseousflap said:
Here is a recent article from the Wall Street Journal:

Read it here.
The beginning of that article is just FUNNY. The Dentist "works four days a week, drives a Mercedes, and lives in a 4,000-square-foot house with a pool." While the Dr. "works between 55 and 80 hours a week, and his annual income of less than $180,000 has been stagnant or down the past few years. He drives a Chevrolet." Like, what a lame ass he drives a Chevrolet!
 
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DREDAY

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ItsGavinC said:
Are you kidding? There stats only apply to SALARIED dentists, which VERY few are. The average salaried dentist is 1-3 years out of school.

When somebody mentions "dentist," they aren't thinking of a salaried worker, which is what the BLS is running stats on.


I beg to differ Gavin, you are wrong about the number of salaried dentists being very few. ONLY 2 in 5 dentists are self employed according to the BLS. This means that 3 of those 5 (majority ~ 60%) are salaried dentists http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos072.htm click and scroll about 1/3 of the way down.


A more precise way of calculating it is if you go to this link http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291020.htm
and see that the total number of salaried dentists in the United States is 98800. Again according to the BLS the total number of practicing dentists in the united states is 153,000. If you take 98800 and divide it by 153000 you get exactly 64.5% which indicates that A MAJORITY OF OUR DENTISTS ARE SALARIED WORKERS!
 

Fullosseousflap

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ItsGavinC said:
I'm curious as to the amount of your loans if 90k a year is plenty to live on?

After taxes, you'll see 60k. After student loans each month, you'll have 48k. That's 4k a month.

Much better than many people, but not wealthy by any means. Throw in a car payment, a mortgage, savings, and you're left with little to nothing.
Yes, you are absolutely correct with your math.

This is one of the many reasons the profession (yes, the ADA too) has been working on reducing student loan debt for dental students.

Unfortunately, the dental schools are pricing themselves out of the market and we are getting displacements in dental manpower e.g. geographic distributions, lack of dental faculty members etc.
 

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DREDAY said:
I beg to differ Gavin, you are wrong about the number of salaried dentists being very few. ONLY 2 in 5 dentists are self employed according to the BLS. This means that 3 of those 5 (majority ~ 60%) are salaried dentists http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos072.htm click and scroll about 1/3 of the way down.


A more precise way of calculating it is if you go to this link http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291020.htm
and see that the total number of salaried dentists in the United States is 98800. Again according to the BLS the total number of practicing dentists in the united states is 153,000. If you take 98800 and divide it by 153000 you get exactly 64.5% which indicates that A MAJORITY OF OUR DENTISTS ARE SALARIED WORKERS!

IS it just me or does that website contradict itself. Here is a direct quote

"Dentists held about 153,000 jobs in 2002. About 2 in 5 dentists were self-employed. Almost all dentists work in private practice. According to the American Dental Association (ADA), about 80 percent of dentists in private practice are sole proprietors, and 13 percent belong to a partnership. A small number of salaried dentists work in hospitals and offices of physicians."

2/5 are self-employed but almost all dentists in are private practice and 80% of those are sole proprietors.

Does this make any sense to anyone?
 

ItsGavinC

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DREDAY said:
I beg to differ Gavin, you are wrong about the number of salaried dentists being very few. ONLY 2 in 5 dentists are self employed according to the BLS.
I don't have any references, but I highly doubt that the majority of dentists are salaried. Most of us here on SDN (as in 90%+ of us) won't be salaried past 5 years. Many of us won't be salaried at all.

Greater income, greater autonomy, etc., are associated with being a practice owner. Very few people pursue dentistry to be a salaried worker. Based on that alone, the BLS stats are shotty.

Still, that doesn't change the fact that when we talk in general terms about dental incomes, we are NOT discussing salaried individuals. I won't be a salaried dentist for long, so I don't really care what salaried dentists make.

And finally, how do you suppose those BLS numbers are obtained? No working professional is going to report their real income to the government.
 

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velikimajmun said:
IS it just me or does that website contradict itself. Here is a direct quote

"Dentists held about 153,000 jobs in 2002. About 2 in 5 dentists were self-employed. Almost all dentists work in private practice. According to the American Dental Association (ADA), about 80 percent of dentists in private practice are sole proprietors, and 13 percent belong to a partnership. A small number of salaried dentists work in hospitals and offices of physicians."

2/5 are self-employed but almost all dentists in are private practice and 80% of those are sole proprietors.

Does this make any sense to anyone?
There stats are always screwy. They list podiatrists as making more than dentists, and high-paying specialty physicians as making mid 150k.

EVERY stat from the BLS is messed up.
 

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ItsGavinC said:
I'm curious as to the amount of your loans if 90k a year is plenty to live on?

After taxes, you'll see 60k. After student loans each month, you'll have 48k. That's 4k a month.

Much better than many people, but not wealthy by any means. Throw in a car payment, a mortgage, savings, and you're left with little to nothing.
I will have a good chunk of loans (as most dental students do), but I still think that even taking home 40k a year is plenty to live on where I live. Many of my friends have 40k-45k (pre-tax) a year jobs right now and still live comfortably. Like I said in my first post, I dont care about being rich, just comfortable (ie reasonable place to live, dependable car, money to go out to eat, etc.) I dont want a damn SUV or mansion.

I think your assumption is that I live in some expensive part of the world with a wife and 6 kids.

Like biggie said....Mo money, mo problems.
 

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ItsGavinC said:
There stats are always screwy. They list podiatrists as making more than dentists, and high-paying specialty physicians as making mid 150k.

EVERY stat from the BLS is messed up.
I'm from the St. Louis area and podiatrist actually do make more here than the dentists. The last salary report I saw in arizona lists podiatrist making more based on salaried workers. The misconception with podiatry is that although they have high earnings jobs are tougher to get based on the size of the profession. However on the whole I think dentist make more across the country. I have researched this ad nauseam.

Again the stats that he is quoting are salaried employees! Self employed professionals will make more and that is even more true for dentists. The labor stats are pretty accurate. Later
 

adamlc18

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I just wanted to throw something out here. Many dentists I know list themselves as employees of their practice and pay themselves a base salary. Then they take the rest of the profits of the practice as dividends.
 
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DREDAY

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ItsGavinC said:
There stats are always screwy. They list podiatrists as making more than dentists, and high-paying specialty physicians as making mid 150k.

EVERY stat from the BLS is messed up.

That is pretty funny that you would argue with statistical analys that has gone under vigurous regimen to be accomplished. You are using baseless accounts of "i know someone or i know another person" to try to contradict an insitituion who is solely dedicated to providing statistics on the labor force for the national government. By the way, if there is an error, its systematic towards all proffessions, the government has no reason to have a consipary against dentistry to try in fool all of us into thinking we make less than we do (meaning we can directly compare salaries). Since the error is systematic we can dirrectly compare different proffessions.

Come on man accept the facts, they are given and clear. 65% of dentists are salaried and make and average of 129k. That is the most accurate statistics out there. THe BLS even breaks it down by state, region, you name it. You dont have any systematic and reputable basis to argue with that.

By the way they even state the STANDARD ERROR for each of their numbers.
 
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DREDAY

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adamlc18 said:
I just wanted to throw something out here. Many dentists I know list themselves as employees of their practice and pay themselves a base salary. Then they take the rest of the profits of the practice as dividends.
many.... its funny how people say "many dentists" i know.hahhah like that is a significant number which would make a difference in the national statistics. And really I can say the same, most of the dentists I know are salaried. So what, that fact doesnt hold up against a statistics that is compiled by a reputable organization collecting data from 98,000 dentists. The 5-6 dentsts that you and I know will not make a difference on the statistics. And also brotha dont relie on word of mouth and use them as facts people will be pulling fast ones on you left and right. Before you do that, make sure you research.

It is one thing I have encountered many times in research. You cannot absolutly publish data results when your n is too small to produce significant results, and even when the results are significant many of the reviewers reject your submission demanding a higher n. In terms of the "dentists" you know, that number is so insignificant (low n) to the number of dentists in the country that it is not an adequate representation of the population as a whole. In addition you cannot guarantee that the facts they are giving you are indeed factual data. You need to see numbers.
 

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velikimajmun said:
IS it just me or does that website contradict itself. Here is a direct quote

"Dentists held about 153,000 jobs in 2002. About 2 in 5 dentists were self-employed. Almost all dentists work in private practice. According to the American Dental Association (ADA), about 80 percent of dentists in private practice are sole proprietors, and 13 percent belong to a partnership. A small number of salaried dentists work in hospitals and offices of physicians."

2/5 are self-employed but almost all dentists in are private practice and 80% of those are sole proprietors.

Does this make any sense to anyone?
I'm with you there - I can't quite make that out. Maybe some dentists have split personalities and consider the "boss" and "employee" parts of themselves as distinct... :confused:
 
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