Another Typical Night On Call

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Good topic, I have gone thru said articles and now the answer is clear. This reminds me of

0219_large.jpg


as Plank searches for the mouthpiece...
So, what is the answer that is clear to you now?
Actually let's ask: What was the question that you were searching for an answer for?
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
So, what is the answer that is clear to you now?
Actually let's ask: What was the question that you were searching for an answer for?

The original question was whether or not the concentration or dose of lidocaine had an effect in the incidence of TNS. That was the question, this is the answer that Mil alluded to originally.






Prospective study on incidence and functional impact of transient neurologic symptoms associated with 1% versus 5% hyperbaric lidocaine in short urologic procedures.
Tong D, Wong J, Chung F, Friedlander M, Bremang J, Mezei G, Streiner D.
Department of Anesthesia, Toronto Western Hospital, University Health Network, University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

BACKGROUND: The objectives of this study were to compare the incidence, onset, duration and pain scores of transient neurologic symptoms (TNS) with 1% versus 5% hyperbaric lidocaine in spinal anesthesia for short urological procedures in a large prospective study. This study would also evaluate patient satisfaction, and impact of TNS on functional recovery to assess the clinical significance of TNS. METHODS: This was a multicenter, double-blind, randomized controlled trial. Four hundred fifty-three patients undergoing short transurethral procedures were randomized to receive 1% or 5% hyperbaric lidocaine. Eighty milligrams of 1% or 5% hyperbaric lidocaine was administered. During the first 3 days after surgery, the presence of TNS, its intensity and duration, and patient functional level were recorded. An intention-to-treat analysis was used. RESULTS: There was no difference in the incidence of TNS (21% vs. 18%) between 1% versus 5% lidocaine. Patients with TNS had significantly higher pain scores (5.3 +/- 3 vs. 2.3 +/- 3) than patients without TNS during the first 24 h. This difference in pain scores persisted until 72 h postoperatively. There was a significant difference in the daily activities functional scores (2.2 +/- 1 vs. 1.4 +/- 0.8) of TNS non-TNS patients during the first 24 h postoperatively. CONCLUSIONS: There was no difference in the incidence of TNS between the 1% versus 5% spinal lidocaine groups. Pain scores were higher in patients with TNS than those who did not have TNS. During the first 48 h postop, a small proportion of patients who had TNS experienced functional impairment of walking, sitting, and sleeping.



Anesth Analg. 2005 Jun;100(6):1811-6.

Transient neurologic symptoms after spinal anesthesia with lidocaine versus other local anesthetics: a systematic review of randomized, controlled trials.
Zaric D, Christiansen C, Pace NL, Punjasawadwong Y.
Department of Anesthesiology, Frederiksberg Hospital, Ndr. Fasanvej 57, 2000 Frederiksberg, Denmark. [email protected]
Lidocaine has been used for spinal anesthesia since 1948, seemingly without causing concern. However, during the last 10 years, a number of reports have appeared implicating lidocaine as a possible cause of neurologic complications after spinal anesthesia. Follow-up of patients who received uncomplicated spinal anesthesia revealed that some of them developed pain in the lower extremities--transient neurologic symptoms (TNS). In this study, we sought to compare the frequency of 1) TNS and 2) neurologic complications after spinal anesthesia with lidocaine with that after other local anesthetics. Published trials were identified by computerized searches of The Cochrane Library, MEDLINE, LILAC, and EMBASE and by checking the reference lists of trials and review articles. The search identified 14 trials reporting 1347 patients, 117 of whom developed TNS. None of these patients showed signs of neurologic complications. The relative risk for developing TNS after spinal anesthesia with lidocaine was higher than with other local anesthetics (bupivacaine, prilocaine, procaine, and mepivacaine), i.e., 4.35 (95% confidence interval, 1.98-9.54). There was no evidence that this painful condition was associated with any neurologic pathology; in all patients, the symptoms disappeared spontaneously by the 10th postoperative day.

Discussion
The main question addressed by this systematic review was whether lidocaine causes TNS more often than other local anesthetics. The answer is yes. TNS can be caused by all other investigated local anesthetics, but the frequency associated with bupivacaine, prilocaine, and procaine is lower than that with lidocaine. Approximately one of seven patients who received spinal anesthesia with lidocaine developed TNS; the RR was also approximately seven times more for lidocaine compared with bupivacaine, prilocaine, and procaine. Intrathecal mepivacaine seems to have the same tendency to cause TNS as lidocaine. However, more studies are needed to evaluate whether this is a correct assumption.
Pain in the lower back is a very common complication after spinal anesthesia (26) with any local anesthetic. Its etiology is unknown, but no connection to neurologic pathology has been suggested in the literature. Lower back pain is different from pain experienced in the buttocks and lower extremities after recovery from spinal anesthesia, which has been denoted as TNS and also shows no evidence for localized nerve damage. Studies with different concentrations and doses of lidocaine have shown that the incidence of TNS was not dose dependent (27,28). All forms of lidocaine have been associated with TNS: hyperbaric and isobaric (27), as well as that diluted with cerebrospinal fluid (28). The cause of this painful condition is unknown, and none of the speculations on its origin has been substantiated.


27. Hampl KF, Schneider MC, Pargger H, et al. A similar incidence of transient neurologic symptoms after spinal anesthesia with 2% and 5% lidocaine. Anesth Analg 1996;83:1051–4. Ovid Full Text Bibliographic Links

Abstract
Recent reports suggest that transient neurologic symptoms are common after spinal anesthesia with 5% lidocaine.To determine whether reducing the anesthetic concentration might decrease the incidence of symptoms, 50 ASA class I or II patients undergoing brief gynecologic procedures under spinal anesthesia were randomly allocated to receive 1 mg/kg of either 5% or 2% lidocaine in 7.5% glucose. Patients were evaluated on the first postoperative day by an anesthesiologist who was unaware of the solution administered or the details of the anesthetic procedure. Symptoms suggestive of transient radicular irritation were observed in 8 patients (32%) receiving 5% lidocaine, and in 10 patients (40%) receiving 2% lidocaine (NS). These results confirm our previous findings that transient neurologic symptoms may occur in up to one third of the patients receiving 5% lidocaine, and indicate that a modest reduction in lidocaine concentration does not reduce risk.
 
The original question was whether or not the concentration or dose of lidocaine had an effect in the incidence of TNS. That was the question, this is the answer that Mil alluded to originally.

The original question was if EPIDURAL Lidocaine causes TNS and Cauda equina.
And the answer to that is an obvious no.
Cauda equina is almost exclusively caused by intrathecal 5 % Lido. with micro catheters.
TNS is very rarely caused by epidural anesthesia.
TNS was commonly seen in daily practice a few years ago when people did Lidocaine spinals using hyperbaric Lidocaine 5%, no one in real life did lidocaine spinals using lower concentrations because the block becomes crappy.
That was probably before you were born but that's how it was.
Because some people who have partial information like to throw that information around even if it did not fit the subject your MMD volunteered to tell us that TNS happens with other concentrations of Lido as well, which is irrelevant to the original question.
So, I am not sure how he clarified the issues to you.
 
Last edited:
BF,
dude...this is hilarious!!!

Plank...perhaps it's because you're a FMG...and English being a 2nd language and all ...you don't communicate so well...

but plank...dude...give it up...
...

back peddling doesn't become anyone...even a fmg.


Good topic, I have gone thru said articles and now the answer is clear. This reminds me of

0219_large.jpg


as Plank searches for the mouthpiece...
 
BF,
dude...this is hilarious!!!

Plank...perhaps it's because you're a FMG...and English being a 2nd language and all ...you don't communicate so well...

but plank...dude...give it up...
...

back peddling doesn't become anyone...even a fmg.

Man you make a lot of noise for such a short guy, I saw your picture next to that Motorcycle, I could barely see your head above the seat, what are you 4 feet tall?
Oh I forgot, it's your Asian heritage.
😀
 
The original question was if EPIDURAL Lidocaine causes TNS and Cauda equina.
And the answer to that is an obvious no.
Cauda equina is almost exclusively caused by intrathecal 5 % Lido. with micro catheters.
TNS is very rarely caused by epidural anesthesia.
TNS was commonly seen in daily practice a few years ago when people did Lidocaine spinals using hyperbaric Lidocaine 5%, no one in real life did lidocaine spinals using lower concentrations because the block becomes crappy.
That was probably before you were born but that's how it was.
Because some people who have partial information like to throw that information around even if it did not fit the subject your MMD volunteered to tell us that TNS happens with other concentrations of Lido as well, which is irrelevant to the original question.
So, I am not sure how he clarified the issues to you.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MAN, PLEASE REFER TO POSTS 41 and 42 where YOU say that the majority of cases of TNS occured from 5% Lido intrathecal and/or with microcatheters. The articles I sited state that the concentration and dose do NOT matter nor does microcatheters. The epidural issue was never brought up in any of my posts.

Am I being punked? ....Ashton, I give up, you got me, bring out the cameras man.

Oh, and I love this arguing ****, reminds me of my thanksgiving dinners. 👍
 
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MAN, PLEASE REFER TO POSTS 41 and 42 and above where YOU say that the majority of cases of TNS occured from 5% Lido intrathecal and/or with microcatheters. The articles I sited state that the concentration and dose do NOT matter nor does microcatheters. The epidural issue was never brought up in any of my posts.

Am I being punked? ....Ashton, I give up, you got me, bring out the cameras man.

Oh, and I love this arguing ****, reminds me of my thanksgiving dinners. 👍
The majority of TNS DID occur with Lidocaine 5%, IN REAL LIFE.
Because everyone who did lido spinals used Lido 5 %.
You don't have to believe me but that's how it was.
It does not matter if they did studies showing that other concentration caused TNS as well, because NO ONE used other concentrations!
Is this too difficult?
I have been doing this business for a while and I know a couple of things that maybe you don't know, is that possible you think?
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
The majority of TNS DID occur with Lidocaine 5%, IN REAL LIFE.
Because everyone who did lido spinals used Lido 5 %.
You don't have to believe me but that's how it was.
It does not matter if they did studies showing that other concentration caused TNS as well, because NO ONE used other concentrations!
Is this too difficult?
I have been doing this business for a while and I know a couple of things that maybe you don't know, is that possible you think?

I see what you are saying, and I understand the real life experiences you have, which exceed mine. However, in that original post, you make it sound like TNS only occurs with 5% lido and with microcatheters. All I am saying is that you need Neither to be true, thats it. I believe thats what MMll was referring to, and one of my attendings once told me this as well - which is why I looked it up again. This was also somehow involved in a recent board question which sparked my interest. End of story.

If you were here, I would share a pint with you and hug it out. 😀

Now you and Mil may carry on talking about each others schlongs. BF is now running fast in the other direction.
 
Man you make a lot of noise for such a short guy, I saw your picture next to that Motorcycle, I could barely see your head above the seat, what are you 4 feet tall?
Oh I forgot, it's your Asian heritage.
😀

Hey, is it true what they say about the small di ck problem?

BF,
dude...this is hilarious!!!

Plank...perhaps it's because you're a FMG...and English being a 2nd language and all ...you don't communicate so well...

but plank...dude...give it up...
...

back peddling doesn't become anyone...even a fmg.

Man I want to be in the room if these two ever meet up in real life.
 
I see what you are saying, and I understand the real life experiences you have, which exceed mine. However, in that original post, you make it sound like TNS only occurs with 5% lido and with microcatheters. All I am saying is that you need Neither to be true, thats it. I believe thats what MMll was referring to, and one of my attendings once told me this as well - which is why I looked it up again. This was also somehow involved in a recent board question which sparked my interest. End of story.

If you were here, I would share a pint with you and hug it out. 😀

Now you and Mil may carry on talking about each others schlongs. BF is now running fast in the other direction.


I never talked about schlongs or any thing else like that......he brought it up......
 
I see what you are saying, and I understand the real life experiences you have, which exceed mine. However, in that original post, you make it sound like TNS only occurs with 5% lido and with microcatheters. All I am saying is that you need Neither to be true, thats it. I believe thats what MMll was referring to, and one of my attendings once told me this as well - which is why I looked it up again. This was also somehow involved in a recent board question which sparked my interest. End of story.

If you were here, I would share a pint with you and hug it out. 😀

Now you and Mil may carry on talking about each others schlongs. BF is now running fast in the other direction.

When I mentioned Microcatheters I was referring to cauda equina that was almost exclusively reported with microcatheters and Lido 5%
The main question was by DFK who asked if Epidural Lido could cause TNS or Cauda equina.
MMD tried to focus the discussion on TNS because he had some partial info that he wanted to use to play our usual game that's it.
So I apologize if I sounded confrontational against you, it was not intentional.
👍
 
militarymd said:
Here's what I posted:

1) I noted your error
2) I gave you new information
3) I gave you the author of the new information
4) I told you where this author works
5) I told you that I was one of the author's references (Bearsdley- who you obviously never heard of) when I was a resident when he was developing the in vitro spinal model for lidocaine toxicity

and all you have is:

1) you are confused
2) you have zero idea
3) you are an idiot
4) you have shallow knowledge
5) you are pulling bs
6) you cuss like a teenager
Mil FTW.
 
I see what you are saying, and I understand the real life experiences you have, which exceed mine. However, in that original post, you make it sound like TNS only occurs with 5% lido and with microcatheters. All I am saying is that you need Neither to be true, thats it. I believe thats what MMll was referring to, and one of my attendings once told me this as well - which is why I looked it up again. This was also somehow involved in a recent board question which sparked my interest. End of story.

If you were here, I would share a pint with you and hug it out. 😀

Now you and Mil may carry on talking about each others schlongs. BF is now running fast in the other direction.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

thats funny I dont care who you are thats funny

You two crack me up.

:corny:
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
I find it interesting an assistant moderator can get away with disparaging racial stereotypes and inquiries about another dude's penis size.

It's no wonder lurkers find this a hostile, unwelcoming environment..........
 
I find it interesting an assistant moderator can get away with disparaging racial stereotypes and inquiries about another dude's penis size.

It's no wonder lurkers find this a hostile, unwelcoming environment..........

If you have a question you can refer to the thread about the status of this forum and you can see what the majority of our members decided should be the moderation style around here:
http://gasforums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=557869
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
What happens if you get a case at night (AFTER CRNA leaves) and during this case that you are doing solo, a STAT C-section occurs? OR a code call?


You should treat this situation as If you are taking call from home: You call your backup person and the response time is going to be the usual 30 minutes.
If the hospital is not happy with this arrangement they need to pay for a CRNA to be always present on the OB floor.
As for codes, this is what ER physicians do.
 
I had a stat csection about a year ago that put me in this situation. Had 3 or 4 rooms running in the main OR's. No more CRNA's available. Get a call from the OB, placenta previa in the ED, pt bleeding like stink, headed to the OR now. I run up, pt is bleeding like stink and had been for a while. Baby's HR is in the 70's and had not come up since the pt hit the ED about 15 minutes prior. No prenatal care, crack addict. No time for somebody else to get there. Pt induced after appropriate steps taken, csection went fine. Talked to our office later and in that situation I went from medical direction to medical supervision on all the cases going in the OR. Which was painful since I had some pretty high RDU cases at the time (I think I had a CABG and a spinal fusion going). Just the nature of covering OB. Baby did fine.
 
I am highly disappointed that an "assistant moderator" on SDN thinks it is ok to direct racist remarks at another member of the forum.

If it were any other ethnic group other than asian men, would you feel so non-chalant with the racist insults? Coward.
 
I had a stat csection about a year ago that put me in this situation. Had 3 or 4 rooms running in the main OR's. No more CRNA's available. Get a call from the OB, placenta previa in the ED, pt bleeding like stink, headed to the OR now. I run up, pt is bleeding like stink and had been for a while. Baby's HR is in the 70's and had not come up since the pt hit the ED about 15 minutes prior. No prenatal care, crack addict. No time for somebody else to get there. Pt induced after appropriate steps taken, csection went fine. Talked to our office later and in that situation I went from medical direction to medical supervision on all the cases going in the OR. Which was painful since I had some pretty high RDU cases at the time (I think I had a CABG and a spinal fusion going). Just the nature of covering OB. Baby did fine.

Yeah, you're still gonna get sued.

-copro
 
I am highly disappointed that an "assistant moderator" on SDN thinks it is ok to direct racist remarks at another member of the forum.

If it were any other ethnic group other than asian men, would you feel so non-chalant with the racist insults? Coward.

As someone with a small penis, I'm equally offended.

-copro
 
You should treat this situation as If you are taking call from home: You call your backup person and the response time is going to be the usual 30 minutes.
If the hospital is not happy with this arrangement they need to pay for a CRNA to be always present on the OB floor.
As for codes, this is what ER physicians do.

I'm not clear - would you start the C/S yourself or wait for the on-call CRNA to come in to start it?
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
I had a stat csection about a year ago that put me in this situation. Had 3 or 4 rooms running in the main OR's. No more CRNA's available. Get a call from the OB, placenta previa in the ED, pt bleeding like stink, headed to the OR now. I run up, pt is bleeding like stink and had been for a while. Baby's HR is in the 70's and had not come up since the pt hit the ED about 15 minutes prior. No prenatal care, crack addict. No time for somebody else to get there. Pt induced after appropriate steps taken, csection went fine. Talked to our office later and in that situation I went from medical direction to medical supervision on all the cases going in the OR. Which was painful since I had some pretty high RDU cases at the time (I think I had a CABG and a spinal fusion going). Just the nature of covering OB. Baby did fine.

That's pretty much how ya gotta bill it, and yes, it does suck. I'm not sure on this, but for some reason I'm thinking the medically directed and medically supervised times can be broken down separately, e.g. you could have had your CABG with 2 hours of medically directed time and 30 minutes of supervised time. You would have to go back and document at what point the changeover(s) occurred.

If this is a common occurrence, having that spare person around to cover OB might be worth it. We always have someone in reserve, but we're a big group with a high volume practice, and I realize that the economics of a smaller group might prevent this. If your volume doesn't support the cost, that of course brings in the hospital subsidy question.
 
I'm not clear - would you start the C/S yourself or wait for the on-call CRNA to come in to start it?

You should not leave the patient you are taking care of to go start a stat c section. You call your backup anesthesiologist if you have one (we always have a second call MD), or you call a CRNA. The anesthetic for the stat section will start when that person arrives, if it's a CRNA then I would leave the CRNA to finish the ongoing case and go to do the section myself.
If they can't wait 30 minutes for this to happen then they can start under local.
If the hospital wants to guarantee immediate availability of an anesthesia provider for a stat c section they need to pay for a dedicated 24 hours OB anesthesia provider.
When you are doing 1/1 anesthesia your only obligation is toward the patient you are taking care of.
 
I am highly disappointed that an "assistant moderator" on SDN thinks it is ok to direct racist remarks at another member of the forum.

If it were any other ethnic group other than asian men, would you feel so non-chalant with the racist insults? Coward.

I forgot to mention that in addition to being Asian I believe that MMD has nappy hair.

On a more serious note though I have to refer you to my post:

By the way I have nothing aginst any minority or any one with any type of penile deformity.
This whole thing is basically a series of bad jokes and no offense intended to anyone, well... except MMD.

If you are still offended then I don't know what else I can say to you.
 
I am highly disappointed that an "assistant moderator" on SDN thinks it is ok to direct racist remarks at another member of the forum.

If it were any other ethnic group other than asian men, would you feel so non-chalant with the racist insults? Coward.


Hey it's ok.

Plank resorting to racial slurs and other insults is the result of him losing his arguments based on logic and reason.

It's obvious to everyone that he lost big...and in trying to save face, he's resorted to the slurs.

I'm glad he did.....

I wished others would have voted, but only 2 people did....2 to 0 ...xmmd wins the match.
 
Hey it's ok.

Plank resorting to racial slurs and other insults is the result of him losing his arguments based on logic and reason.

It's obvious to everyone that he lost big...and in trying to save face, he's resorted to the slurs.

I'm glad he did.....

I wished others would have voted, but only 2 people did....2 to 0 ...xmmd wins the match.

No I actually continued what you have started because you seem to always forget a few details about yourself when you start your racist remarks against Foreigners, Blacks, Women...... etc...
I just added a few pieces of info about you after you started attacking FMG's to make the conversation more fair to everyone.
Did not mean to hurt your feelings.
 
No I actually continued what you have started because you seem to always forget a few details about yourself when you start your racist remarks against Foreigners, Blacks, Women...... etc...
I just added a few pieces of info about you after you started attacking FMG's to make the conversation more fair to everyone.
Did not mean to hurt your feelings.


Here we go again.

Go ahead and post my racist remarks.....and don't use your moderator powers to create them....like you used them to erase posts that you don't like.

I don't "attack" groups.....I describe groups as having characteristics which I have observed in my 15 years in medicine...anecdoctal...sure...but they are my observations in multiple institutions, across a number of states......how the reader wants to take these observations...it's up to them.

Do you do the same thing? No ...you 're attacking me based on my race....and I suppose you're going to tell the readers that you have personal observations of a lot of Asian men's penis????....yeah you probably have looked at a lot of Asian penises.

And what does my 9 inch schlong have to do with anything?

My observations actually have something to do with what we do.

Go ahead, post one of my racist posts...and let the readers decide for themselves.

You just don't know how to stay down.
 
Here we go again.

Go ahead and post my racist remarks.....and don't use your moderator powers to create them....like you used them to erase posts that you don't like.

I don't "attack" groups.....I describe groups as having characteristics which I have observed in my 15 years in medicine...anecdoctal...sure...but they are my observations in multiple institutions, across a number of states......how the reader wants to take these observations...it's up to them.

Do you do the same thing? No ...you 're attacking me based on my race....and I suppose you're going to tell the readers that you have personal observations of a lot of Asian men's penis????....yeah you probably have looked at a lot of Asian penises.

And what does my 9 inch schlong have to do with anything?

My observations actually have something to do with what we do.

Go ahead, post one of my racist posts...and let the readers decide for themselves.

You just don't know how to stay down.


😀
I don't have to post anything because people who read this forum frequently know very well what I am referring to.
As for the new guys they can search your posts on their own.
I don't care if you are a racist or a bigot, I was just pointing out the irony of your position being a member in a minority yourself.
Don't be so sensitive.
 
So...it's not OK to go and save an newborn's life ...and perhaps a pregnant woman's life, but it's OK to go pee????

Come on , Plank.....which is it?

It's either OK to leave or not.....or do you consider your own personal comfort more important than a newborn and/or pregnant woman's life?

Or have you changed your mind on this?


You should not leave the patient you are taking care of to go start a stat c section. You call your backup anesthesiologist if you have one (we always have a second call MD), or you call a CRNA. The anesthetic for the stat section will start when that person arrives, if it's a CRNA then I would leave the CRNA to finish the ongoing case and go to do the section myself.
If they can't wait 30 minutes for this to happen then they can start under local.
If the hospital wants to guarantee immediate availability of an anesthesia provider for a stat c section they need to pay for a dedicated 24 hours OB anesthesia provider.
When you are doing 1/1 anesthesia your only obligation is toward the patient you are taking care of.
 
So...it's not OK to go and save an newborn's life ...and perhaps a pregnant woman's life, but it's OK to go pee????

Come on , Plank.....which is it?

It's either OK to leave or not.....or do you consider your own personal comfort more important than a newborn and/or pregnant woman's life?

Or have you changed your mind on this?

:prof:
OK, although this has nothing to do this thread I am going to try to explain it to you:

Going to the bathroom = 30 seconds (provided your prostate is OK)
Doing a C Section = average 45 minutes but could be much longer.
Are you able to see the difference??
 
:prof:
OK, although this has nothing to do this thread I am going to try to explain it to you:

Going to the bathroom = 30 seconds (provided your prostate is OK)
Doing a C Section = average 45 minutes but could be much longer.
Are you able to see the difference??


Leaving the room is leaving the room. Bad things that happen in the OR can happen at anytime, frequently unpredictable, and is over in 30 seconds...either fixed or the patient dead.

So you would choose to go ahead and let someone (perhaps 2) die because you won't "risk it"...know that you won't be gone for the duration because your back up is on the way.


But when it comes to your own personal comfort, you would RISK a patient's life, because it's "only 30 seconds".

So ...for you...a DEFINITE kill is OK, but risking a patient's life for YOUR personal comfort is OK....
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad