Another "what are my match chances" thread, and where to do "audition" electives

[shan564]

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Hello everybody,

Thanks for taking the time to read my thread. I'm a 4th-year student at the University of Sydney in Australia. I was hoping for some guidance because I'll be applying for the match in psychiatry this year, and I can do two away Sub-I's in the US during January and February 2013, so it's about time for me to start applying for those. I was hoping to do those Sub-I's at places where I'd be a borderline candidate (not a place where I'd be way above average or way below average), so I might be able to put myself over the edge if I can use it as an "audition" to show them that I'm competent, interested in psychiatry, and a hard worker. I think I left a very positive impression after a US elective in psychiatry, so I'm sure I can do it again.

Here is my basic info:
- I'm a US citizen studying at the University of Sydney.
- 227 on Step I
- Taking Step 2CK in July... I'd be surprised if my score was much higher or much lower than 240.
- Taking Step 2CS in December... so I won't have my result in time for interviews, but I'll have it before the rank lists go in.
- Two very strong rec letters from psychiatrists at Tulane, where I did an elective rotation.
- Several little presentations/publications here and there as well as a lot of unpublished research experience (my old boss is going through a complicated academic situation right now, so I probably won't be able to publish them in time). Only one of those conference presentations is in psychiatry, and that was just a case report that I worked on during my elective (but I probably won't be the first author).
- I generally do fairly well at interviews... I'm not a super-dynamic "wow" type of person, but I usually come out of interviews feeling like it went well.
- Lots of experience as a freelance writer, but I don't know if that matters.
- I'm graduating at the end of February, so my ECFMG certification won't be out in time for the rank lists. As I understand it, this might be important at the more competitive programs.

**edit - removed a bit here because it's no longer 100% accurate, and I just wouldn't want somebody to misinterpret something**


So... based on that, what do you guys think of my chances at various types of programs? I'd like to go to a major research institution... I'm not too fussy about geography, but if all else is equal, I'd prefer Chicago or St. Louis because that's where most of my family/friends are. I realize that I probably shouldn't waste time doing a Sub-I at UChicago or Northwestern or Harvard, since they don't really take a lot of IMGs into their programs... but maybe I could go to a place like UWisconsin or the like? I'm thinking that a mid/upper-tier public university might be the sort of place where I'm a "borderline"-type candidate, so doing a rotation there might help my chances a bit.

Any thoughts?

Thanks again!

 

[splik]

you shouldn't do an elective at harvard because they charge such exorbitant fees. UofC is full of IMGs (but it is also on my 'programs to avoid' list) so im not sure where you got the idea it wasn't. UIC is also full of IMGs - really there are a fair few programs in chicago so i think you're fine. UIC is probably the most academic, I like Northwestern myself and they have a pretty good consult-liaison program. Rush is a decent program from what I gather even though it is not a so-called 'top' program.

If you are interested in the interface between medicine and psychiatry (i.e. psychosomatics) I do not see the point in doing med-psych or fm-psych if that is your interest - you are better of going to a program that is strong in consult-liaison and gives you a strong medicine experience. places like hopkins, university of washington, longwood, spring to mind - hopkins at least is probably not out of your league.

I would narrow down which places would actually take you to do an elective first. then go where you think you would get the best/different experience. also consider doing a non psych elective like neuro or neuroradiology. jan/feb seems a bit late for the electives to really make a difference unless you absolutely tank.

 

[shan564]

Thanks for the advice. I'll just clear up a few things...

UofC is full of IMGs (but it is also on my 'programs to avoid' list) so im not sure where you got the idea it wasn't.

I could be wrong, but when I looked at their list of "current residents", there are only a 3-4 IMGs across all four years (none in PGY1), and they're all either MD/PhD's or they're certified psychiatrists in their home countries.

UIC is also full of IMGs - really there are a fair few programs in chicago so i think you're fine. UIC is probably the most academic, I like Northwestern myself and they have a pretty good consult-liaison program. Rush is a decent program from what I gather even though it is not a so-called 'top' program.

The problem with UIC and Rush is that they don't accept overseas students for electives... I'll apply there for residency, but I can't go there now. And Northwestern didn't have many IMGs on their "current residents" page.

places like hopkins, university of washington, longwood, spring to mind - hopkins at least is probably not out of your league.

Really? You think so? I'd assumed that they tend to get the people with 240-250 scores and a long list of publications.
One problem with places like Hopkins is that they say that you should be ECFMG certified before they offer an interview. My degree won't be finished until February, so I won't be able to get ECFMG certification on time for that. Also, I won't have passed Step 2CS by interview time either. So I think I'm limited to less competitive programs.

I would narrow down which places would actually take you to do an elective first. then go where you think you would get the best/different experience.

Yeah, that's probably a good point. But I just wanted to make sure it's in the right "tier"... i.e. I can get an elective at Duke (my school has a partnership with them), but I don't know if I have a chance of getting a residency there with an average Step I score and moderate psych experience.

also consider doing a non psych elective like neuro or neuroradiology.

Well, I'm sure that would be great experience, but the idea of doing audition electives in Jan/Feb is that they'd really remember/know me when it comes time for them to submit their rank lists. That idea would be invalidated if I did the elective in neuro, since I'm not applying to neuro.
But it's possible that I'm completely wrong about that. It's just something I've heard here and there.

 

[splik]

I am probably not the best person to comment but I do not think it is common for students to do audition rotations in jan/feb - that sounds way too late and unless you do really badly i don't think it will make a difference.

as for duke - it is a highly regarded program and does attract some top people, but it also has a lot of mediocre residents and the odd shocking one. i do not think it is all that competitive- i fell asleep in my interview and they still seemed to want me. apart from being a comic genius and a bit precocious i had a below average step 1 etc. they have a med/psych ward mind...

 

[shan564]

Hm... so you're saying it doesn't really matter where I do those rotations? I have to do them somewhere, so if the "audition" aspect of it is irrelevant, maybe I should use other factors to decide.

 

[atsai3]

I agree that you should not do your visiting rotations in Jan/Feb. That is way too late. You should really aim for Nov/Dec. If you have no choice but to do Jan/Feb, then it is what it is. I wouldn't waste your time with a neuro or radiology visiting rotation unless your primary purpose is to see the hospital and see the city; it's not really going to help you with the psych selection committee.

As an IMG you are going to be out of the running at top programs. None of the programs in Chicago or St. Louis belong in this tier, so if you are set on those cities then I agree that you should just go to the web sites and look through resident rosters to see if they have accepted IMGs in the past. If they have, then go for it.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

You might take a look at Hennepin-Regions in Minneapolis. They frequently take good IMGs, especially if US citizens with a good story. And it's a strong community program in a great city.

Agree with atsai and splik--Jan/Feb is too late to do a rotation, but it is good for the 2nd half interview season.

(You know I totally missed that you really want a research institution--and the above is much more clinically based...but apply broadly.
UW-Madison, Med Coll of WI, Indiana, Michigan, Iowa...even Mayo. You might connect.)

 

[notdeadyet]

Agree with all the advice you're getting above.

Especially splik's advice not to do a combined residency for the sake of being a psychosomatic medicine specialist. Look at the publications and clinical work in the field and you'll find it's done by folks who went to general psych programs followed by PSM fellowships.

And especially OPD's advice on expanding your net. If you have a very strong drive for Chicago or St Louis, fair enough, but your options will be more limited. The wider you cast your net geographically, the better your odds are at matching into a better program. This is true for any applicant, but particularly true for DOs, IMGs, FMGs, etc.

 

[shan564]

Thanks for the advice, guys.

I agree that you should not do your visiting rotations in Jan/Feb.

Agree with atsai and splik--Jan/Feb is too late to do a rotation, but it is good for the 2nd half interview season.

As far as rotation timing, Jan/Feb is really my only option. I might be able to do one in December if the stars align correctly, but that'd require a lot of factors (outside my control) to fall into place.

Considering that, do you think that the Jan/Feb rotations would be completely worthless? I figured that it'd give me a chance to meet the attendings/program director... wouldn't that influence their decision when they have their rank meetings in February? Or am I missing something?

I have to do the rotations somewhere. I could do them in Australia, but I can do them anywhere, so I feel like I should take advantage of that opportunity. If you guys really think that I won't influence any PDs' decisions by doing the rotation in January, then maybe I should consider other factors... i.e. go to a place that I've always wanted to visit, or a subspecialty that I've always wanted to learn...

None of the programs in Chicago or St. Louis belong in this tier, so if you are set on those cities then I agree that you should just go to the web sites and look through resident rosters to see if they have accepted IMGs in the past. If they have, then go for it.

You don't think that WashU and Northwestern are "top tier" programs? I know that WashU takes some IMGs... maybe I'll have a stroke of luck with my application there. But I've always had the impression that you need an exceptional Step 1 score to show up on the radar there. Still, I'll apply either way.

Also, I'm definitely not "set on" Chicago or St. Louis. If I get into a better program in a different city, I'll go there. I'm not even sure if Chicago and St. Louis are my top 2 preferences. But I'll definitely apply to all of the hospitals in those two cities.

You might take a look at Hennepin-Regions in Minneapolis. They frequently take good IMGs, especially if US citizens with a good story. And it's a strong community program in a great city.

Thanks for the suggestion; I'll definitely look into that. I like Minneapolis, so I'm sure that would be a good option.

 

[splik]

Considering that, do you think that the Jan/Feb rotations would be completely worthless? I figured that it'd give me a chance to meet the attendings/program director... wouldn't that influence their decision when they have their rank meetings in February? Or am I missing something?

You are missing that by the time you interview programs already have a good idea of where you fall on the rank list so if you do an away in jan/feb the likelihood is it wont have an effect except possibly a negative one. You have the opportunity to go anywhere and do anything, do something different. I am so glad I did the elective I did, it shaped my current interests and gave me many stories and experiences I wouldn't trade for anything even though they were not all good.

 

[splik]

You don't think that WashU and Northwestern are "top tier" programs? I know that WashU takes some IMGs... maybe I'll have a stroke of luck with my application there. But I've always had the impression that you need an exceptional Step 1 score to show up on the radar there. Still, I'll apply either way.

I don't know where you get these impressions from - revisit my FAQs thread. I did not apply to WashU but because of location, its biological slant, and the whole lawsuit from that resident who claims to have been beaten up, I do not think they are as competitive as you might think. Also competitive does not mean top tier, and top tier does not mean you need an 'exceptional' step 1. I will say that columbia and cornell seemed to only interview IMGs with high step 1 scores, but they don't sponsor H1 visas so theyre not usually interested in going there. Northwestern is a good program but its a little small I think to be on anyone's top 20 list. Indeed I don't think any of the chicago programs would be considered 'top' for psychiatry residency training... UofC scare people of, UIC can't fill, and Northwestern is good (and I gather cushy) but it doesn't have a deep bench or the array of clinical services found elsewhere.

 

[atsai3]

Considering that, do you think that the Jan/Feb rotations would be completely worthless? I figured that it'd give me a chance to meet the attendings/program director... wouldn't that influence their decision when they have their rank meetings in February? Or am I missing something?

I don't think it would be completely worthless -- I just think it would be better if you did it earlier. At many top programs, if you are coming from a school they do not recognize then it helps if you do a rotation there and one of their own attendings puts their eyes on you. If you are an IMG I would guess that would still be the case. But the timing is what it is. If money, etc is not an issue then I say go for it, put your best foot forward, and see how things go in the match. Good luck!

You don't think that WashU and Northwestern are "top tier" programs?

No need to resurrect that discussion here. Plenty of other threads on SDN where this question has been beaten to death. In my post I was really using the phrase "top tier" in reference to your chances of getting in as an IMG. Columbia, UCSF, MGH, etc -- no chance. They just have too many USMG applications. If I were a program director who is trying to chew through as many applications as possible, I would most certainly use factors like IMG/USMG, Dean's Letter, etc to whittle my pile down to a manageable size. The cost of a false negative would simply be too low for me to worry about it.

 

[belle54321]

In my post I was really using the phrase "top tier" in reference to your chances of getting in as an IMG. Columbia, UCSF, MGH, etc -- no chance.

On my interview day at Columbia, I did meet two IMGs (South Korean and Iranian) who both happened to be doing research at Yale. But, at Columbia, I think IMGs are encouraged to apply for PGY-2 position (only one spot) after a successful internship elsewhere.

I think for the OP, he should apply broadly and just see who will offer him interviews. It's not too crazy to apply to a few reach programs, as long as you keep your expectations realistic.

 

[notdeadyet]

On my interview day at Columbia, I did meet two IMGs (South Korean and Iranian) who both happened to be doing research at Yale. [/QUOTEFolks typically use IMG to denote Americans who go to med school overseas. Foreign born and trained docs are usually referred to as FMGs and the ones you see here interviewing are often the best minds of their home country.

 

[belle54321]

I thought the politically correct term for all foreign trained docs are now referred to IMG. I think they started that when I graduated from med school in 1999 (at least that's when I was told to call them IMG and not FMG). I guess it didn't work, : ) since I see people correcting the use of IMG to only include US citizens all the time.

From the ECFMG website, the term IMG is used. (I guess they figure it's too late to change their name to ECIMG!)
http://www.ecfmg.org/certification/definition-img.html
Definition of IMG
ECFMG and its organizational members define an international medical graduate (IMG) as a physician who received his/her basic medical degree or qualification from a medical school located outside the United States and Canada. The location of the medical school, not the citizenship of the physician, determines whether the graduate is an IMG. This means that U.S. citizens who graduated from medical schools outside the United States and Canada are considered IMGs. Non-U.S. citizens who graduated from medical schools in the United States and Canada are not considered IMGs.

 

[splik]

yes IMG refers to where you trained, not your citizenship, though the majority of IMGs are indeed foreign. Even the NRMP uses the term IMG for both, referring to 'IMG' and 'USIMG' to denote difference in citizenship for internationally trained doctors.

 

[shan564]

I don't think it would be completely worthless -- I just think it would be better if you did it earlier. At many top programs, if you are coming from a school they do not recognize then it helps if you do a rotation there and one of their own attendings puts their eyes on you. If you are an IMG I would guess that would still be the case. But the timing is what it is. If money, etc is not an issue then I say go for it, put your best foot forward, and see how things go in the match. Good luck!

Sounds reasonable. It's not possible for me to do it any earlier than January, so I guess that rotation won't have a huge impact on anybody's decision. I wouldn't say that "money is not an issue", but if it improves my chances of matching at a better place, I'll borrow what I need to borrow from Uncle Sam. But if it doesn't make a difference, I might go somewhere else...

No need to resurrect that discussion here. Plenty of other threads on SDN where this question has been beaten to death. In my post I was really using the phrase "top tier" in reference to your chances of getting in as an IMG. Columbia, UCSF, MGH, etc -- no chance. They just have too many USMG applications. If I were a program director who is trying to chew through as many applications as possible, I would most certainly use factors like IMG/USMG, Dean's Letter, etc to whittle my pile down to a manageable size. The cost of a false negative would simply be too low for me to worry about it.

Ha, sorry, I didn't mean to beat a dead horse. I just thought that places like WashU were out of my league... but I'll apply either way, so their competitiveness doesn't really influence my decision anyway (since they don't take overseas students for electives).


Just to clarify based on other people's advice, I DO plan to cast a very wide net, and I DO realize that places like MGH/Columbia/Cornell are probably a long shot at best. But, based on my stats/profile, does anybody know what sorts of places might be a 50/50 shot for me? Those are the kinds of places where I want to start focusing efforts... even if there's a very small chance that it'll have any effect, I'd just like to say that I tried everything I could.

 

[notdeadyet]

I thought the politically correct term for all foreign trained docs are now referred to IMG. I think they started that when I graduated from med school in 1999 (at least that's when I was told to call them IMG and not FMG). I guess it didn't work, : ) since I see people correcting the use of IMG to only include US citizens all the time.

Yeah, I've seen this switch from FMG/IMG to IMG for all. It looks as if it will move to this direction eventually. In the meantime, though, I'd take care when folks talk about IMGs, because many are talking about foreign born/trained docs, which are a different type than US born and foreign trained docs. Different backgrounds, different schools.

 

[Shufflin]

Nobody can predict where you are/will be competitive or attractive. When I applied I had no clue either. Apply to every place that interests you, with some backup programs in there. I know some IMGs who had 60+ applications.

I eventually matched into one of my top choices in Los Angeles, but didn't know at the outset if I would even get an interview there. So take some chances.

Also, do your aways at places you really want to impress, but you must impress - that's the kicker. The big risk is that you might not impress, and then it would have been better to not have rotated there. I didn't do any aways.

 

[shan564]

Also, do your aways at places you really want to impress, but you must impress - that's the kicker. The big risk is that you might not impress, and then it would have been better to not have rotated there. I didn't do any aways.

Yeah, that's a good point - but I feel like I left a very positive impression when I did an away at Tulane last year, so I don't see why it would be any different next time. Although other people seem to be saying that it'll be mostly irrelevant if I do it in Jan/Feb, so I'm starting to think that I shouldn't worry about doing it at a place where I'd really like to tip the balance...

 

[nitemagi]

Nobody can predict where you are/will be competitive or attractive. When I applied I had no clue either. Apply to every place that interests you, with some backup programs in there. I know some IMGs who had 60+ applications.

I eventually matched into one of my top choices in Los Angeles, but didn't know at the outset if I would even get an interview there. So take some chances.

Also, do your aways at places you really want to impress, but you must impress - that's the kicker. The big risk is that you might not impress, and then it would have been better to not have rotated there. I didn't do any aways.

There's a bit of a crapshoot as to who reads your application. Programs may have some criteria for their absolute "Yes," but if you fall into the "maybe category" what's in your essay or some other part of your application might catch the interest of one reader but not another. Things work out, though.

 

[hopeful2007]

I'm a US-IMG as well, and I had very little luck finding programs that would take me for an audition elective. So if you find anywhere, let us know!

I'm hoping I'll still be competitive at "top" programs with a >250 Step 1 score and hopefully about the same for Step 2 (just took it last week). Just need to get in the door for an interview!

 

[Shufflin]

I'm a US-IMG as well, and I had very little luck finding programs that would take me for an audition elective. So if you find anywhere, let us know!

I'm hoping I'll still be competitive at "top" programs with a >250 Step 1 score and hopefully about the same for Step 2 (just took it last week). Just need to get in the door for an interview!

Going by "top" programs is one way to cut the pie, but another is by region. "Top" is so hard to define. A top program for one applicant is another's third or fourth choice (or not even ranked) due to considerations like personal connection with the program, living conditions including everything from weather to transportation, vicinity to family, program teaching style, etc. I never bothered applying to Columbia or Cornell.

Region is probably more useful. I would argue that in each region there is a great psych program for you. Granted, some regions are less IMG friendly. Southern California is one place even applicants from top med schools compete eagerly to enter, probably the most competitive by region. NYC might be another tough place to crack. I'm not sure. But the Midwest, Mid-Atlantic, and South are good IMG regions.

Also keep in mind your goals. Big name programs are best suited to give you academic careers. If that's your aim, great. For others (like myself), you may want solid psych training where you'll see and treat everything. Then look for top county programs. A big academic name may not deliver in this regard, although there are a few stellar county programs connected to top academic names so you get the best of both worlds 🙂.

Finally, going by region has a huge advantage. If you land a residency where you plan to practice, then you build the network and you learn the system of that region. This will help you tremendously when looking for that first big job or setting up your own office or both. Hope that helps.

 

[san2]

Australia is way better than going to Carribean.
USMLE score Step 1 is good for pysch
Tulane LOR will help.

I know Wash U- St. Louis accepts IMG's as seen from their current resident list. Its a great program, with a worldwide reputation. Top 10 program easily. Fellowships are endless. Just a great great great program.

Also look at programs in Texas (Baylor, Southwestern), Michigan, DC (Georgetown, GW), Virginia (EVMS, UVA, VCU), North Carolina (Wake Forest), Tennessee (Vanderbilt), Boston (Tufts), South Carolina (MUSC), Georgia (Emory), Florida (UMiami, UFL), and USC (California. They do take IMG's) and I would apply to some ridic programs where your chances are low because of your IMG status, but your stats are good enough to be considered. UMich, Yale, Harvard-Longwood, OHSU, UCSF, Duke, Penn

Dont bother applying to NYMC. You're too good for that

 

[vistaril]

let me start by saying very few places are out of your league. Maybe a few programs in California and a couple in new york would be real reaches not worth a shot. Everything else is fair game. This is psychiatry. Psychiatry is very noncompetitive. It is almost hard to overstate just how noncompetitive psychiatry is. That doesnt mean all psych applicants are poor. It just means the applicant population as a whole is such that it is very easy to get into a program, even many "name" ones.

And no, med-psych is not very competitive. For the life of me I can't see why anyone would want to do it, and perhaps thats why there are so few programs.

 

[shan564]

Hello everybody,

I have another decision to make with regard to my application, and before I make the wrong choice, I was just hoping to get an opinion from somebody more knowledgeable.


A lot of programs seem to require ECFMG certification in time for the rank list deadline, while others just say that you have to have it by July 1. In order to get ECFMG certification, I'd have to have graduated from med school.

I was planning to graduate in ~May, which would give me plenty of time to get certified by July 1. But I also have the option to graduate in January if I accelerate a few things - the problem is that this would require me to be on rotations between now and January 11, which would leave only a couple of weeks for interviews.

So, my question is this...

Of the two options, which is better?
1. Be ECFMG certified in time for the rank list deadline, but only have about 2 weeks for interviews.
2. Don't be ECFMG certified in time for the rank list deadline, but take about 2 months for interviews.

Any opinions?

 

[splik]

i think i covered this in my FAQs - you need to be ECFMG verified rather than certified for many of these places. this just means you need to have passed step 1, step 2cs and step 2 ck. there will be some places that might require you to have the certificate, but in general that is not quite what they mean.

 

[shan564]

i think i covered this in my FAQs - you need to be ECFMG verified rather than certified for many of these places. this just means you need to have passed step 1, step 2cs and step 2 ck. there will be some places that might require you to have the certificate, but in general that is not quite what they mean.

Yeah, that's what I figured, but I wasn't sure if those places would still have a strong preference for people who are actually certified rather than just verified. But based on what you're telling me, it seems like I'd probably be better off taking the extra interview time rather than getting my ECFMG certification earlier...

Also, I'm not sure how big of an impact this will have on my application, but I won't have my Step 2CS result back until January-February. It'll definitely be there in time for the rank list, but definitely won't be there in time for interview offers. Does that have a big impact on my application strategy or will most programs let it slide as long as I pass Step 2CS by the time they hold their ranking meeting?

 

[splik]

Yeah, that's what I figured, but I wasn't sure if those places would still have a strong preference for people who are actually certified rather than just verified. But based on what you're telling me, it seems like I'd probably be better off taking the extra interview time rather than getting my ECFMG certification earlier...

Yes, especially as you are a US citizen. if you were not I would tell you i something else because of visa processing issues but that's not relevant and although most Australian medical schools have a finals system unlike in the US they will likely assume you will graduate in time.

Also, I'm not sure how big of an impact this will have on my application, but I won't have my Step 2CS result back until January-February. It'll definitely be there in time for the rank list, but definitely won't be there in time for interview offers. Does that have a big impact on my application strategy or will most programs let it slide as long as I pass Step 2CS by the time they hold their ranking meeting?

Sorry my crystal ball isn't working right now. all i can tell you is it will have an impact on your application.

 

[SmallBird]

Sorry to be joining this thread late, but I have to say that on paper my credentials were worse than yours, and I managed to get interviews at a number of good research programs, and matched at my first choice. I can't predict based on that what your experience will be, but I certainly think it would be worth your while to apply essentially anywhere you would like to go, with the exceptions of Columbia/Cornell/MGH/UCSF.

Also - I only had two weeks for IV's, managed to get 7 done. It was complete hell and I didn't get to go to any of the dinners. In my case I didn't have a choice, and certainly, it can be done, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Good luck!

 

[splik]

hey smallbird - hope residency etc is going well

 

[SmallBird]

It is, thank you! If you emptied out your PM mailbox I could tell you about it 🙂

 

[shan564]

Yes, especially as you are a US citizen. if you were not I would tell you i something else because of visa processing issues but that's not relevant and although most Australian medical schools have a finals system unlike in the US they will likely assume you will graduate in time.

Great, thanks for the advice. That's quite reassuring. I actually will have passed all of my final exams before my interviews... I just have to do a token 5-week "pre-internship" term before I can get my diploma. So there will be no question regarding whether I will graduate on time.

Sorry my crystal ball isn't working right now. all i can tell you is it will have an impact on your application.

Ha, thanks. I guess we'll see how things pan out... it's not like there's anything I can do about it at this point...

Sorry to be joining this thread late, but I have to say that on paper my credentials were worse than yours, and I managed to get interviews at a number of good research programs, and matched at my first choice. I can't predict based on that what your experience will be, but I certainly think it would be worth your while to apply essentially anywhere you would like to go, with the exceptions of Columbia/Cornell/MGH/UCSF.

Also - I only had two weeks for IV's, managed to get 7 done. It was complete hell and I didn't get to go to any of the dinners. In my case I didn't have a choice, and certainly, it can be done, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Good luck!

That's very helpful; thanks for sharing your experience. I'm glad to see that you were able to get where you wanted to go despite the tight interview schedule... I was worried that even 2 months might not be enough, but if it worked for you, then hopefully it can work for me too...

 

[TexasPhysician]

Also, I'm not sure how big of an impact this will have on my application, but I won't have my Step 2CS result back until January-February. It'll definitely be there in time for the rank list, but definitely won't be there in time for interview offers. Does that have a big impact on my application strategy or will most programs let it slide as long as I pass Step 2CS by the time they hold their ranking meeting?

This will eliminate you from consideration at multiple programs. Some I know require IMG-FMGs to even have a passing Step 3 before interview.

I interviewed at 1 place that hadn't taken an AMG in years - they chastised me for not taking step 3 (impossible for an AMG pre-graduation).

 

[MrJiggles]

Didn't want to start another thread for this, figured I'd post on this one. Chances?

- AMG, didn't really decide on Psych until this year
- 220 Step 1, taking Step 2 soon.
- Mostly passes, small handful of honors here and there. Probably bottom 50th percentile of my med school class, I'm too much of a hedonist
- Have very close relationships with my letter writers, two of which are fairly renowned academic psychs, one medicine, one peds.
- No real research outside of undergrad, BUT helping a bunch of psychiatrists write a chapter in an upcoming NIH/NIDDK publication, but that won't be released until December =(
- Some extracurriculars, mostly humanities/music/service related.

I worry that my late interest in psych may hamper me. I really want to do residency around NYC as my family and girlfriend are there. Wouldn't mind Long Island I guess as I'm there currently. I figure I don't have much of a chance at Columbia, but how about NYU/Sinai/Cornell? I am doing a rotation at Sloan-Kettering in Psycho-Oncology, and was denied a rotation at NYU as it was already full. Do you think I need to do a rotation at Sinai or NYU if I want to go there? What about Monte/LIJ/BI and the other programs, are they as competitive as the ones I previously mentioned?

 

[twright]

Didn't want to start another thread for this, figured I'd post on this one. Chances?

- AMG, didn't really decide on Psych until this year
- 220 Step 1, taking Step 2 soon.
- Mostly passes, small handful of honors here and there. Probably bottom 50th percentile of my med school class, I'm too much of a hedonist
- Have very close relationships with my letter writers, two of which are fairly renowned academic psychs, one medicine, one peds.
- No real research outside of undergrad, BUT helping a bunch of psychiatrists write a chapter in an upcoming NIH/NIDDK publication, but that won't be released until December =(
- Some extracurriculars, mostly humanities/music/service related.

I worry that my late interest in psych may hamper me. I really want to do residency around NYC as my family and girlfriend are there. Wouldn't mind Long Island I guess as I'm there currently. I figure I don't have much of a chance at Columbia, but how about NYU/Sinai/Cornell? I am doing a rotation at Sloan-Kettering in Psycho-Oncology, and was denied a rotation at NYU as it was already full. Do you think I need to do a rotation at Sinai or NYU if I want to go there? What about Monte/LIJ/BI and the other programs, are they as competitive as the ones I previously mentioned?

You have as good a shot as anyone at NYU/Sinai. Cornell likes to think they draw from the same pool as Columbia (/MGH/UCSF/etc) so you would probably have less of a chance there.

The fact that your letter writers know you well will help in terms of their ability to craft a letter that helps your reviewers know that your letter writers know you well. Basically it will help them believe the (presumably) good things your letter writers say about you. Even better if one of them knows one of your letter writers personally and knows that your letter writer does not have a reputation for grade inflation when it comes to letters of recommendation.

I don't know whether it would help you that much to do a rotation at NYU/etc. At my program, it would help a student from a different medical school if we didn't know anything about his school. For example, in our admissions committee it would not be surprising to hear someone say something like "UTHSC? I didn't even know they had a medical school" and then the comment would on a life of its own as everyone else ran with it ("we've never had anyone in our program from there", "who knows what kinds of grades they give there", "does anyone here know what kinds of responsibility they give their medical students?", etc).

The NIH chapter won't really help all that much. No sense in worrying that it is not published until December. (Even if it were a real publication, that wouldn't matter. An "in press" is just as good as the real thing.)

The non-honors will hurt. If you get honors on your sub-I that would help.

The late interest in psychiatry will not hurt. We care about genuine and deep interest (and some indication that this has led you into intellectually interesting territory; evidence of the latter might be suggested by a publication, extracurric, etc), irrespective of whether you are early or late to the game.

 

[MrJiggles]

You have as good a shot as anyone at NYU/Sinai. Cornell likes to think they draw from the same pool as Columbia (/MGH/UCSF/etc) so you would probably have less of a chance there.

The fact that your letter writers know you well will help in terms of their ability to craft a letter that helps your reviewers know that your letter writers know you well. Basically it will help them believe the (presumably) good things your letter writers say about you. Even better if one of them knows one of your letter writers personally and knows that your letter writer does not have a reputation for grade inflation when it comes to letters of recommendation.

I don't know whether it would help you that much to do a rotation at NYU/etc. At my program, it would help a student from a different medical school if we didn't know anything about his school. For example, in our admissions committee it would not be surprising to hear someone say something like "UTHSC? I didn't even know they had a medical school" and then the comment would on a life of its own as everyone else ran with it ("we've never had anyone in our program from there", "who knows what kinds of grades they give there", "does anyone here know what kinds of responsibility they give their medical students?", etc).

The NIH chapter won't really help all that much. No sense in worrying that it is not published until December. (Even if it were a real publication, that wouldn't matter. An "in press" is just as good as the real thing.)

The non-honors will hurt. If you get honors on your sub-I that would help.

The late interest in psychiatry will not hurt. We care about genuine and deep interest (and some indication that this has led you into intellectually interesting territory; evidence of the latter might be suggested by a publication, extracurric, etc), irrespective of whether you are early or late to the game.

Thanks for all your input! Thats good to hear, I wish I had done better on those shelf exams, my purely clinical comments and marks are excellent. I have my Sub-I next month which I'm excited about, I aim to please. I'm not too hung up on going to a brand name place, but I certainly would rather go to a place in the city with a strong medicine/CL emphasis and medical training as well as psychotherapy, research and the like. Do programs differ widely in this regard?

 

[SteinUmStein]

The late interest in psychiatry will not hurt. We care about genuine and deep interest (and some indication that this has led you into intellectually interesting territory; evidence of the latter might be suggested by a publication, extracurric, etc), irrespective of whether you are early or late to the game.

How much are applications hurt by not having a psych-specific publication or extracurricular? Are relatively high step scores, solid grades, and good recs enough to carry an application to a top-tier program or is a lack of evidence of previous "deep interest" in psych enough to hold it back?

 

[notdeadyet]

How much are applications hurt by not having a psych-specific publication or extracurricular?

Not much at all. Most folks I know don't have a psych-specific publication and I'm not sure what a psych-extracurricular would be. To be honest, I don't think anyone will care if you were treasurer of the psych-sig.

Are relatively high step scores, solid grades, and good recs enough to carry an application to a top-tier program or is a lack of evidence of previous "deep interest" in psych enough to hold it back?

Keep in mind that the top programs are top programs because they can choose anyone that they want. In a way, I think programs that are a notch below are a little more obsessed with box-checking.

You need solid scores, marks and LORs to make the cut at most top programs. After that, it's largely based on how good a fit a particular program thinks you'll be. Participation in clubs, volunteering, and research might help, but it won't compensate if they just don't think you're right for their program.

If you have an above national average step, a handful of honors (esp one in psych) and strong LORs, you'll have a shot at most programs. Whether individual ones will choose you is tough to say. Just be authentic in how you present yourself and you'll likely find yourself at the program that's right for you.