Anxiety and Confusion!

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aspiringcp

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Hi all,

I recently graduated with a specialized honours BA in Psychology, and will be applying to clinical and counselling psych programs for entrance fall 2008. I was planning on going to CSPP, but now that I've read all these comments about the school, I'm paranoid! Ultimately, I want to become a psychologist and practice...no aspirations for research. Why are these professional schools frowned upon (other than the fact that you'll be in debt forever)? Are there scholarships available for people planning to attend CSPP? Also, in terms of living expenses....would anyone mind sharing how expensive it is to live in California (I know it depends on which part...say San Diego or LA....)? How does health insurance work in California (sorry for all the questions...I'm from Canada and am not sure how it works).
As much as I want to go to grad school in Canada, I don't know how likely that is (3.3 gpa, some experience as a volunteer RA).

On top of all of this, I really, REALLY don't want to write the GRE's - math has never been a forte of mine, and I feel like the prep course I took did not prepare me whatsoever for the quant. part. I feel confident for the verbal; I've been learning my words..but the math has been incredibly frustrating and every time I can't solve something, I get frustrated and have not looked at it for the past month and a half.
Any advice on this? Should I just write it and not underestimate myself?

Also, does anyone know of any counselling programs that don't require the GRE that aren't from a professional school (if they exist)?

Any advice/commentary is really appreciated!!
Thanks so much.

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I don't know of any APA-accredited clinical program that doesn't require the GRE (The Wright Institute uses it for their stats, but not evaluation...go figure), so you are stuck taking it.

I have no idea about counseling programs, so I'l defer to others for that.

-t
 
All the counseling programs I looked at required at least the general, if not both. I only applied to research-oriented ones though, so maybe there are some more practice-oriented ones where that's not the case.

Remember that the quant section does NOT test your math ability. It tests your ability to answer the sorts of questions the GRE has. Two very different things. GRE quant questions are full of tricks. But there are dozens of tricks you can learn to make the test much much easier. I suggest you pick up and read the Princeton Review book if you haven't. Many quant questions can be answered without doing any math at all, and nearly all can be done in under a minute if you know the tricks.

If you just want to practice, have you looked into alternative programs? MSWs, certification in MFT, that sort of thing?
 
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Hi all,

I recently graduated with a specialized honours BA in Psychology, and will be applying to clinical and counselling psych programs for entrance fall 2008. I was planning on going to CSPP, but now that I've read all these comments about the school, I'm paranoid! Ultimately, I want to become a psychologist and practice...no aspirations for research. Why are these professional schools frowned upon (other than the fact that you'll be in debt forever)? Are there scholarships available for people planning to attend CSPP? Also, in terms of living expenses....would anyone mind sharing how expensive it is to live in California (I know it depends on which part...say San Diego or LA....)? How does health insurance work in California (sorry for all the questions...I'm from Canada and am not sure how it works).
As much as I want to go to grad school in Canada, I don't know how likely that is (3.3 gpa, some experience as a volunteer RA).

On top of all of this, I really, REALLY don't want to write the GRE's - math has never been a forte of mine, and I feel like the prep course I took did not prepare me whatsoever for the quant. part. I feel confident for the verbal; I've been learning my words..but the math has been incredibly frustrating and every time I can't solve something, I get frustrated and have not looked at it for the past month and a half.
Any advice on this? Should I just write it and not underestimate myself?

Also, does anyone know of any counselling programs that don't require the GRE that aren't from a professional school (if they exist)?

Any advice/commentary is really appreciated!!
Thanks so much.

Yay another Canadian!

Do you want to move to California because you want to go to CSPP, or because you just really want to move to California? If you're really intent on going to that school, then by all means go for it. But first, here are my thoughts. I'm Canadian and I definitely want to live in California someday, even if only for a few years. I strongly considered it for grad school and almost sent in my letter to a school saying "yes I'll be attending in September". But then I thought... I'd be so broke in the end, I would have to move OUT of California afterwards just so I could have a house and food and all that good stuff. So now I'm going to be going to school in a really cheap place to live and THEN I'll try to live in California. Someone on here once said that they went to grad school in a small little boring town and then they were able to afford to live in a really cool big city after they graduated. That really hit home with me.

As for health insurance, you have to buy it. Here in Canada as I'm sure you know, you just sign up and voila you suddenly can go to a doctor any time you want. There, not so much. You pay so much even for student health insurance and the coverage is minimal at best.

To the best of my knowledge CSPP doesn't have a huge wealth of scholarships or funding in general, but I could be wrong.

Living in California is ridiculously expensive. Just for fun the other night I was looking at rent in a few cities there and I had to stop because it was so scary. You'll be paying at least $700 a month for a room in someone's house. And remember, that's USD.

Anyway, I know this was kind of ranty but somebody helped talk me out of making a decision that would have been completely wrong for me so I just wanted to share the info. I think grad school is definitely NOT the time to move somewhere you've always wanted to live at any cost. Go somewhere much less expensive, then you'll be able to live in "cooler" places later.

Good luck!

Oh and the GRE is just something we all have to do pretty much. If you do great on the verbal you can get by with a so-so math mark. And JockNerd is absolutely right, once you get past the mental block of "oh my god it's math" you can find little tricks that actually don't require any math knowledge at all. It's enough to get by anyway.
 
Thanks so much for the fast responses!

Jocknerd, I haven’t looked into an MSW or anything along those lines, primarily because I’ve always wanted to be a psychologist. Also, even though the GRE doesn’t test your math ability, you still need to have a general understanding of the basics – finding the circumference and radius and all that fun stuff makes me cringe. I wasn’t fond of Kaplan whatsoever, so thanks for suggesting Princeton – I’ll definitely take a look.

RayneeDeigh,
Yay for Canadians!! I wanted to go to California primarily for CSPP, especially because they don’t require the GREs. I had no idea it was so expensive to live there! But I would definitely want to come back home and practice here. Do you know if it’s possible to get a degree from the States and come home and work?
Thanks for your advice!!
 
Do you know if it’s possible to get a degree from the States and come home and work?

This is an on-going issue, since the CPA and APA have decided to let the accreditation go for Canadian schools (which up until this past year were also reviewed by the APA). I'm not sure how if it goes the other way (US--> Canada).

Any Canadians have any updates?

-t
 
Jocknerd, I haven't looked into an MSW or anything along those lines, primarily because I've always wanted to be a psychologist. Also, even though the GRE doesn't test your math ability, you still need to have a general understanding of the basics – finding the circumference and radius and all that fun stuff makes me cringe. I wasn't fond of Kaplan whatsoever, so thanks for suggesting Princeton – I'll definitely take a look.

If that level of math doesn't sit with you, you won't be happy in most traditional PhD programs, since most are research-based. Funding comes through research money, so its a bit difficult to escape this and get a practice-oriented PhD. That being said, many PhD grads still end up being practitioners, so you might want to think about whether you could suffer through 4 years of research work to get out of school without paying a dime.

I have to say that I think its a mistake to focus on being a 'psychologist.' If your goal is to do therapy, there are alternatives that will prepare you better for that than a PhD program in psych. MSWs are sometimes derided on this board (I have no idea why; my thesis advisor was an MSW, and she was brilliant, one of the most knowledgeable persons in the subject area in my region, and an excellent and respected clinician) but it's a viable route to get to a goal of doing therapy. You'd make prettymuch the same money as a PhD or PsyD level practitioner anyway.

You can get a degree in the states and work in Canada. I'm Canadian and I'm studying in the US now, but I plan on coming back. There's some wonkiness going on right now with APA/CPA accreditation but it'll probably amount to nothing of real significance.

Edit: T4C, I heard that APA and CPA accreditation will just be viewed as equivalent for any practical purposes. I don't know if that's what'll really happen, of course. It is kind of weird to have the American Psychological Association accrediting places that aren't in the US.....
 
As far as I know, Canadians have no problem coming back into Canada. They have more problem STAYING in the USA to work.

As hard as the APA/CPA are working to be separate, there are a lot of groups working towards license mobility and I think in the end it'll likely be a non-issue.
 
I have to say that I think its a mistake to focus on being a 'psychologist.' If your goal is to do therapy, there are alternatives that will prepare you better for that than a PhD program in psych. MSWs are sometimes derided on this board (I have no idea why; my thesis advisor was an MSW, and she was brilliant, one of the most knowledgeable persons in the subject area in my region, and an excellent and respected clinician) but it's a viable route to get to a goal of doing therapy. You'd make prettymuch the same money as a PhD or PsyD level practitioner anyway.

I agree that if you JUST want to do therapy, there are more options worth looking at. I've known some great MSWs/LCSWs, and that is definitely a good choice to take if you want to primarily focus on therapy. I still prefer the clinical training to what I've seen at the MS level, but that is just my personal preference, since the 'services' part of SW really doesn't appeal to me (though it offers great flexibility in the job market). I much prefer the more severe pathology and nitty gritty stats and research aspects that a clinical education pushes.....which has it's own flexibility.

I think the reason why MSWs sometimes get a bad rep on here is due to natural competition (encroaching into our area), some bad experiences (there are always good/bad/average people in every profession), and the "we do the same thing" line that sometimes gets thrown around, which irks many PhD/PsyDs because we all are suffering/did suffer through much more than just clinical training (which tends to be more anyway). It is really an apples vs. oranges discussion since each profession has their own unique areas that the other doesn't practice in.

As for the billing....I think there is a higher ceiling for doctoral levels, but in a cash practice, you can set whatever fee you want, so you can have a very lucrative practice with whichever degree you choose.

Edit: T4C, I heard that APA and CPA accreditation will just be viewed as equivalent for any practical purposes. I don't know if that's what'll really happen, of course. It is kind of weird to have the American Psychological Association accrediting places that aren't in the US.....

Interesting. I thought that was odd too, but the US tends to have the most strict guidelines for many things, so I guess they are/were the standard? I don't know if this is true for clinical psych though.

As far as I know, Canadians have no problem coming back into Canada. They have more problem STAYING in the USA to work.

We have enough people here, I want MORE people to leave!!! :laugh:

-t
 
i would definately agree with what others have said on this board. becoming a clinical psychologist entails a great deal more than traing to become a therapist (and phd/psyd level clinical training is very intense). while becoming a psychologist sounds wonderful, it would extremely defficult and stressful to spend several years performing research, working in a prof's lab, where he/she depends on you to be engaged and productive, and to complete a dissertation if you do not really want to perfom research. even the psyd, while not as research focused as the phd, still had a lot more research involved than a msw (though as T4C said, one should not conflate psychology and social work, any more than psychology and psychiatry-they are very different disciplines). doing research when you don't want to would be like having senioritis for your entire program. not fun.

i think the advice to really look at what it takes to get your doctorate in psychology, and think about that in terms of whay you enjoy and what you actually want to spend your time doing, is very sound. likewise, while most of us are/were not thrilled with the prospect of taking the gre, it should not be such a barrier that the thought of having to take it actually influences what schools you should apply to. i feel like your desire to pursue phd level training must be much stronger than that.

lastly, i went to an art high school AND art school for college. i haven't taken math since i was 14. so i know how horrifying the math is, and how daunting it is. but i'll tell you right now, stats is gonna be a helluva lot harder than memorizing the formula for the volume of a cube. while i know prep courses have gotten mixed feedback on this board, i think they can help, even a weekend intensive one, if only to get you to face your fears and give you a push. i did a one and it really boosted my confidence, and gave my math fears a reality check. now i'm multiplying fractiions and doing FOIL like nobodys busisness.

good luck!!! this grad school stuff is tough!
 
Sorry I didn't clarify earlier - what I meant was, after attaining a doctoral degree, I would want to practice only. I am fully motivated to do research IN the PhD program - but after graduation, not as much. I had heard that CSPP takes pride in their practicum-oriented programs, which is why I was interested in the Clinical Phd/PsyD programs in the first place.

In the long run, say I attain a PhD from CSPP and want to practice - does anyone think it would be an issue? I heard from a prof that if one wanted to mainly do research after graduation, then getting their degree from Alliant wouldn't be highly looked upon rather than if you chose to practice. I'm really not sure how it is - will getting a degree from Alliant affect my future in terms of being able to get a job and practice?
Thanks everyone!
 
I'm biting my tongue because I really don't want to start another debate on the issue, but I absolutely loathe the idea of recommending any school that seriously lowers the standards for the profession, and CSPP definitely is one of those schools. I haven't met anyone that likes the GRE, but we all sucked it up and studied however much we needed to in order to succeed, rather than choosing a school that seemed more like the "path of least resistance" than necessarily the best choice. There are plenty of schools with a wealth of clinical opportunities that don't do this. I've already got some decent opportunities lined up 2 weeks into year one, and I'm at a school that is very clear that we are here to be researchers, and clinical work should not ever be our primary focus.

Also, if funding or money is a concern, this is even less of a good idea. Alliant needs your tuition money to function, so they aren't big on scholarships that I have seen (at least not compared to traditional programs). On top of that, CA has a very high cost of living on top of the high cost of tuition associated with CSPP.

I can't really answer how a degree from Alliant would affect you. I think for someone wanting to open up a private practice, it matters a LOT less where you go to school, as long as you still put in the effort. It might make that first job a bit more difficult to get, but after you establish yourself, you'd likely be fine. If you want to keep a hand in academia though, I can say for certain that many, many people will look down on it and it will make things more difficult (although certainly not impossible).
 
In the long run, say I attain a PhD from CSPP and want to practice - does anyone think it would be an issue? I heard from a prof that if one wanted to mainly do research after graduation, then getting their degree from Alliant wouldn't be highly looked upon rather than if you chose to practice. I'm really not sure how it is - will getting a degree from Alliant affect my future in terms of being able to get a job and practice?

I think the farther away from your schooling, the less your degree matters (to other people), and some may argue that once you get licensed...it doesn't matter at all. Pts in private practice don't know the differences between schools. There have been a number of threads about a variety of Alliant campuses on here, and the general consensus is that the quality varies quite a bit by campus. CSPP has been covered, so I'd do a search if you want to find out about their specific program. I don't know off the top of my head about CSPP, but I know there are a number of CA schools that have questionable reputations (outside of the UC system, Pepperdine, etc).

A degree from Alliant could be problematic at highly competitive jobs because they are looking for reasons to cut people, and coming from a lesser known/respected program may be enough for them to not consider you, but you need to figure out what you want to do with your degree. If you are just going to do private practice, it really doesn't matter. If you want to teach/research.....it matters. People can teach with any doc. degree, it just depends what/where you want to teach.

No matter where you go, if you get quality training and supervision, you should be able to be a quality clinician, which is really what matters if you want to do private practice (well that....and being able to leverage your skills to maximize your profits, but that is my bias :D ). There have been great people to come from lower-tier programs, and horrid people coming from top-tier programs....so it is up to the person to define their niche.

One thing to consider about any school in CA....Cost of Living! It is ridiculously expensive to live there. I considered moving to the bay area for school, and even with decent funding it was ridiculous. I don't know where CSPP is located, but definitely ask the current students about the cost of living. I ruled out 90% of the midwest when I was looking (a mistake), and now that I'm looking at internship and seeing the CoL at various places, it is making me wish I lived somewhere that was so expensive.

-t
 
Sorry I didn't clarify earlier - what I meant was, after attaining a doctoral degree, I would want to practice only. I am fully motivated to do research IN the PhD program - but after graduation, not as much. I had heard that CSPP takes pride in their practicum-oriented programs, which is why I was interested in the Clinical Phd/PsyD programs in the first place.

In the long run, say I attain a PhD from CSPP and want to practice - does anyone think it would be an issue? I heard from a prof that if one wanted to mainly do research after graduation, then getting their degree from Alliant wouldn't be highly looked upon rather than if you chose to practice. I'm really not sure how it is - will getting a degree from Alliant affect my future in terms of being able to get a job and practice?
Thanks everyone!

A typical Alliant grad would have trouble getting into academia for the same reason that a traditional PhD program grad without any pubs would have trouble--the training just doesn't match up with what the requirements for the job (securing outside funding and doing original empirical research) require. Like T4C said, though, for practice it doesn't matter and with dedication you can certainly become an excellent clinician having gone to a professional school. But please please PLEASE be aware of the real financial situation associated with that route.

If you think you can take the research, I say go traditional PhD. :D But bear in mind that the math gets MUCH more advanced than anything you'll ever see on the GRE. We're in the third week of my first-year required stats class and things like (I'm just grabbing something out of my text in front of me)

R^2_cs = 1 - e^[-2/n(LL(New)-LL(Baseline))]

are par for the course.

What about that suggestion to look at alternative educational paths to your goal? I think it's pretty important.
 
"Math" and stats are definitely two different animals. "Math" is just numbers, and stats can mean a lot more (at least this is what I told myself to get through my stats classes). I think the useful thing about stats is that once you learn the equations and what they mean (not just the answer), it becomes far more interesting (I was much more into the DOING than the theory part of the class). I think I'd go nuts if I had to crunch numbers all day without it really meaning something....though tie in clinical relevance and you got me.

-t
 
Everyone's advice is incredibly helpful. I breathed a sigh of relief when I read that it should be okay to practice with a degree from Alliant. I guess that's only for private practice, though, and not for practicing in hospitals? I want benefits!! :oops:
Also, another q - does anyone know roughly how much a prof teaching at Alliant would make? (I know it's nowhere near as much as a prof makes teaching at a trad'l school)...
Thanks!
 
So, I just started school at the CSPP in San Francisco. I know you mentioned specifically LA or San Diego... from what I've heard, San Diego and San Francisco are the best campuses (but that is just hearsay, I don't actually know). I really like it so far (except for buying books.... ughhh). I love almost all my classes and professors, and I've been happily surprised with some of the affiliations my professors have (ie: with Stanford, UCSF). I mean, just my opinion, but I really like it. And of course, I'm just starting, so I don't actually know much about how easy/hard it is to get a job upon graduation. Anyway, just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

As far as cost of living... it is SO expensive. I used to live in Santa Barbara, and I thought that was bad... wow, San Francisco is soooooo expensive. Even the food is expensive. But I do have to say, I absolutely LOVE this city. So really, it depends what is important to you. I'm also one of those people who cannot EVER imagine living anywhere but California... so for me, these prices are just what you have to deal with to live in this great location.

PM me if you have more messages... I'd love to help you out any way I can.
 
Alliant's tuition and costs are a rip off. Go back and read the previous threads. Do you want to be 150-200k in debt? You'll be paying back the loans for a very long time on a typical psychologist's income.

Futhermore, do you really want to graduate from a school that has less than a 50% match rate for internship? I think there is another thread about a PsyD student that failed to match to a APA-approved program, and is stuck on what to do...

The cost of living in CA is extraordinary. Most apartments rents in a major city are $1,000+ a month in areas near campuses, and houses average $500,000. Have fun paying back your student loans and trying to pay for a CA mortgage at the same time. Go look up the loan calculator I pasted in an earlier thread and talk to a financial consultant.

I'm sick of these threads that start out with "I read all the horrible things about Alliant/CSPP/Agrosy/NameAnotherProfessionalSchool, but I want to ask again..." It's been discussed time and time again, read and educate yourself instead of re-posting. There have been numerous discussions on why professional schools (as they operate now, like for-profit businesses), are bad for the student and the field, besides just the debt you will incur.
 
Sorry I didn't clarify earlier - what I meant was, after attaining a doctoral degree, I would want to practice only. I am fully motivated to do research IN the PhD program - but after graduation, not as much.

i understand, but picture YEARS of doing something that you are "eeh" about, while most if not all (likely all) of the folks around you are totally into it, passionate about it, and counting on you to be productive and insightful. seriously, sounds like a nightmare to me (and by nightmare, i mean when i was an exec. asst. out of college. a great, highly paid job for those that would like it, but i just wasn't into it, and it was really important to those around be that i be totally committed. lesson learned!)

i don't know much about these prof. programs, but i do agree w/ jocknerd - not that i don't think you could be a great phd/psyd level clinician ( i don't know you, but i imagine) but if you aren't comitted to research, social work is not a dirty word . i though long and hard about those programs, and it's only because i want to have serious research training, and continue to do research throughout my life, and because i've taught and i love is so, so much, that i finally came to the dreaded conclusion that i really want a career requiring a 5-7 year education, that maybe i can get because it's the most comeptivie program ever.

also, if you really want to be a clinician, why not apply to other academic psyd programs, ones with better $$ and cache?? in the years since i was an undergrad, the rep. of the psyd has improved so much - it may be a bit of a laiability now, academia wise, but i imagine that will improve. a top-notch clinicain does need to keep abrest of current research, and having an academic degree with at least some emphasis on that, can inform your clinical work.
 
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