Any Chiro's or PT's using A.R.T.?

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dramiri

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A lot of my friends are getting A.R.T. certified, have any you been certified and been using it in clinic. If so, what type of results are you getting.
 
Active Release Technique is a soft tissue technique which incorporates active and passive movements by the patient. Its become popular amongst some athletes, and the technique seems to be getting positive results. Its almost like an updated Myofascial Release type technique.
 
I am familiar with this method. Like many chiropractic methods, it has some marketing sizzle and has potential as a revenue stream, but offers little therapeutic benefit beyond what traditional skill sets offer.
 
PT2MD said:
I am familiar with this method. Like many chiropractic methods, it has some marketing sizzle and has potential as a revenue stream, but offers little therapeutic benefit beyond what traditional skill sets offer.
Click to expand...

I agree chiro marketing tool, no better then any other similar technique. I heard it is quite expensive and you have to pay some kind of fees to stay "certified". I guess it makes the chiros who teach it and came up with it good money.
 
The reason I asked Chiro's and PT's is that A LOT of PT's are now getting certified. Since you have not heard of it, please tell me how MRT is working for you. You should know this technique and you don't need certification, its free. I'm trying to get a feel of the results PT's are getting with their muscle techniques. Give me real feedback, not jabs at each other's profession.
 
dramiri said:
The reason I asked Chiro's and PT's is that A LOT of PT's are now getting certified. Since you have not heard of it, please tell me how MRT is working for you. You should know this technique and you don't need certification, its free. I'm trying to get a feel of the results PT's are getting with their muscle techniques. Give me real feedback, not jabs at each other's profession.
Click to expand...

PT's are also doing craniosacral therapy, but that fact doesn't make the treatment any less horse-bleep. You asked our opinion - my opinion stands. It is a glorified form of massage smoothly packaged as a reinvention of the wheel. PT's are better than that and should rise above witchcraft.
 
The question was directed to those who use ANY soft tissue technique. Whether it would be ART, MRT, etc...since you already know most soft tissue techniques are used by PT's and massage therapists NOT chiropractors I am surprised by your comments. You have spoken with your opinion, but please read my original post. I'm looking for people that are currently using the technique not your opinion. If you have used it and not had results with it, please state your patients case, what protocols you were using and what outcome measures were used to evaluate the outcome.
 
 
Thank you for the links, I appreciate you posting them for myself and others. Also I am looking for people on this forum to share real life experiences from their clinics, internships etc. I don't really care what soft tissue technique you use.
 
dramiri said:
A lot of my friends are getting A.R.T. certified, have any you been certified and been using it in clinic. If so, what type of results are you getting.
Click to expand...

Sorry I must have misread your original post...🙄
 
dramiri said:
The question was directed to those who use ANY soft tissue technique. Whether it would be ART, MRT, etc...since you already know most soft tissue techniques are used by PT's and massage therapists NOT chiropractors I am surprised by your comments. You have spoken with your opinion, but please read my original post. I'm looking for people that are currently using the technique not your opinion. If you have used it and not had results with it, please state your patients case, what protocols you were using and what outcome measures were used to evaluate the outcome.
Click to expand...

If the chiropractic profession is the primary driving force behind a particular therapy, that is cause enough to tread carefully. I am sick of therapists trying to adopt practice patterns that make us indistinguishable from chiropractors - it destroys our credibility among the legitimate medical profession. Here is a listing of ART's staff:

http://www.activerelease.com/staff.asp

Fairly dominated by the chiros. You can ask about individual outcomes all you want. As with many fringe manual techniques, you will get anecdotes and "I had this patient it helped..." stories. What you WON'T find is any evidence that supports it's use beyond what we already know.
 
PT2MD,

You are making a lot of broad generalizations about doctors of chiropractic. Sure there are some out there that are shady but medicine has just as many shady practitioners out there (i.e. family practice docs using lasers to remove skin lesions (they are not surgeons!), an some ophthalmologists doing breast reduction ( not in plastics), a pain doctor in my area getting sentenced to prison time for a pain medication scandal, and so on) Chiropractors have complete autonomy, have had direct access for decades, can order lab tests and imaging (take x-rays in their own office), and have a generally well rounded education for providing musculoskeletal care. My best friend graduated from a school in chicago that has similar basic science requirements of the first year of med school and is a brutal academic commitment for 4 years. Physical Therapy is trying to get what chiropractic already has! That is ----> direct access through medicare and in general (states vary on this), a transition to a doctoring profession (DC's have had this for 100 years), complete autonomy (again DC's have had this for 100 years), and will eventually pursue and have some limited prescription rights for some meds such as corticosteroids--muscle relaxors, NSAIDS---etc...30 million americans get chiropractic care per year including me and I have been very happy with it--market demand legitamizes a profession. You are trashing this profession yet physical therapy is trying to emulate it! (ie DPT---doctoral degree (DC), direct access, and manipulation--HVLA specifically (DC's train for 4 years and are the best at this----I would NEVER let a PT do this to me-----> unethical and not sufficiently trained......) Can you explain this to me?
 
futuredoctorOD said:
PT2MD,

You are making a lot of broad generalizations about doctors of chiropractic. Sure there are some out there that are shady but medicine has just as many shady practitioners out there (i.e. family practice docs using lasers to remove skin lesions (they are not surgeons!), an some ophthalmologists doing breast reduction ( not in plastics), a pain doctor in my area getting sentenced to prison time for a pain medication scandal, and so on) Chiropractors have complete autonomy, have had direct access for decades, can order lab tests and imaging (take x-rays in their own office), and have a generally well rounded education for providing musculoskeletal care. My best friend graduated from a school in chicago that has similar basic science requirements of the first year of med school and is a brutal academic commitment for 4 years. Physical Therapy is trying to get what chiropractic already has! That is ----> direct access through medicare and in general (states vary on this), a transition to a doctoring profession (DC's have had this for 100 years), complete autonomy (again DC's have had this for 100 years), and will eventually pursue and have some limited prescription rights for some meds such as corticosteroids--muscle relaxors, NSAIDS---etc...30 million americans get chiropractic care per year including me and I have been very happy with it--market demand legitamizes a profession. You are trashing this profession yet physical therapy is trying to emulate it! (ie DPT---doctoral degree (DC), direct access, and manipulation--HVLA specifically (DC's train for 4 years and are the best at this----I would NEVER let a PT do this to me-----> unethical and not sufficiently trained......) Can you explain this to me?
Click to expand...


You have very limited knowledge about PT.. PTs in many countries have had full direct access for many years.. and they have been manipulating just as long as chiros for MSK conditions and have very good training in manual therapy and are much safer at it as well, and in some countries have adance status which will allow them to prescribe some drugs.. the difference is that PTs dont claim to cure systemic diseases with manips.. like growing pains, ADHD, Cancer, bed wetting, deafness..ect also chiros dont believe in vacinations and manip infants..and you may think that these chiros who do this are just a few bad apples ..

But this isnt a broad generalizations do some research and you will see that its more than just a few bad apples and the ethical ones are the exceptions. THe whole foundation of the chiro profession was built on faulse philosophies. In my area alone I can find several chiros who advertise these kind of rediculous claims. As a physician I would be very vary of chiros as most of them would like to believe they are physicians

Tell me what kind of profession supports these kind of believes and standards:
http://www.icpa4kids.org/why/whychiro.htm

You need to do some more research on the chiro and PT information before you make these kind of assumptions.

The day that the PT profession will try to emulate the chiro profession is the day i will leave the profession.. if you do research you will see that its the complete opposite of this.
 
futuredoctorOD said:
PT2MD,

You are making a lot of broad generalizations about doctors of chiropractic. Sure there are some out there that are shady but medicine has just as many shady practitioners out there (i.e. family practice docs using lasers to remove skin lesions (they are not surgeons!), an some ophthalmologists doing breast reduction ( not in plastics), a pain doctor in my area getting sentenced to prison time for a pain medication scandal, and so on) Chiropractors have complete autonomy, have had direct access for decades, can order lab tests and imaging (take x-rays in their own office), and have a generally well rounded education for providing musculoskeletal care. My best friend graduated from a school in chicago that has similar basic science requirements of the first year of med school and is a brutal academic commitment for 4 years. Physical Therapy is trying to get what chiropractic already has! That is ----> direct access through medicare and in general (states vary on this), a transition to a doctoring profession (DC's have had this for 100 years), complete autonomy (again DC's have had this for 100 years), and will eventually pursue and have some limited prescription rights for some meds such as corticosteroids--muscle relaxors, NSAIDS---etc...30 million americans get chiropractic care per year including me and I have been very happy with it--market demand legitamizes a profession. You are trashing this profession yet physical therapy is trying to emulate it! (ie DPT---doctoral degree (DC), direct access, and manipulation--HVLA specifically (DC's train for 4 years and are the best at this----I would NEVER let a PT do this to me-----> unethical and not sufficiently trained......) Can you explain this to me?
Click to expand...

You are wrong for so many reasons it's hard to know where to start. I'll try to keep it in order. 1) Your logic is flawed. You are trying to establish the chiro's legitimacy by hacking at MD's who break the law. This is a common shell game played by many DC's - Others are flawed, therefore I must be better. You need to do some research in this area.

2) If doctors are doing proceedures outside their scope, I still think it's better than providing services that have ABSOLUTELY no scientific basis. Just because they got over and won a lawsuit, doesn't legitimize their practice patterns.

3) PT's do NOT want what chiros have. Chiros have a profession built upon a fundamental misrepresentation of human anatomy and physiology. No self-respecting therapist should want this. What we want is to keep these yayhoos at bay while we establish our rightful legitimacy in managing movement dysfunction.

4) PT's performing manipulation is not unethical...get your facts straight. In some states we are not permitted to perform them due to lost legal battles with the lawyer hugging chiros, but manipulations are well within our scope of practice. Don't lecture physical therapists on ethics on behalf of the chiropractors. You are fighting a loosing battle.

It sounds like you've had a good experience with your chiropractor. They do a much better job of befriending patients and making them "feel" better. I just think if you are willing to accept the scientific principles that govern your profession, you should hold other professions to the same standard. Chiropractic fails this standard in most regards. You need to get your facts straight before firing off on a topic with which you obviously have no background.
 
PT2MD said:
You are wrong for so many reasons it's hard to know where to start. I'll try to keep it in order. 1) Your logic is flawed. You are trying to establish the chiro's legitimacy by hacking at MD's who break the law. This is a common shell game played by many DC's - Others are flawed, therefore I must be better. You need to do some research in this area.

2) If doctors are doing proceedures outside their scope, I still think it's better than providing services that have ABSOLUTELY no scientific basis. Just because they got over and won a lawsuit, doesn't legitimize their practice patterns.

3) PT's do NOT want what chiros have. Chiros have a profession built upon a fundamental misrepresentation of human anatomy and physiology. No self-respecting therapist should want this. What we want is to keep these yayhoos at bay while we establish our rightful legitimacy in managing movement dysfunction.

4) PT's performing manipulation is not unethical...get your facts straight. In some states we are not permitted to perform them due to lost legal battles with the lawyer hugging chiros, but manipulations are well within our scope of practice. Don't lecture physical therapists on ethics on behalf of the chiropractors. You are fighting a loosing battle.

It sounds like you've had a good experience with your chiropractor. They do a much better job of befriending patients and making them "feel" better. I just think if you are willing to accept the scientific principles that govern your profession, you should hold other professions to the same standard. Chiropractic fails this standard in most regards. You need to get your facts straight before firing off on a topic with which you obviously have no background.
Click to expand...


<<slow clap>>> 👍👍👍
 
PT2MD,
I am going to preface my response by saying I respect physical therapy and chiropractic equally---both are noble fields.

You need to shrug off this feeling of animosity as you are being a little too emotional about this. Your comment about me knowing "nothing" about this is off base. My early academic background was as a personal trainer and exercise physiologist. Several years ago I was in a DC program on the west coast and completed half of it-->I actually got accepted to one DC program and one DPT program (both were not that difficult to get accepted to) ! I chose DC because it was the one that is recognized by the public as a "doctor" of some sort....and it payed a lot better. (about $30,000 better on the average)

1) The school I attended did not accept subluxation theory whatsoever and used AMA orthopedic books for many many things. Many things I learned where based off of sound evidence based science...(i.e Kirkaldy-Willis model of back pain, Rand Study on the effectiveness of manipulation, etc...)
The school was very difficult and I still remember alot of my neuro pathways ie DCML, ALS, etc.....as well as my anatomy.

2) As a matter of fact 6 people in my class where PT's (4 had a masters, and 2 had a bs.) They all shared the same desire to become autonomous level practitioners and combine both degrees skills. they all left as D.C. P.T.
Those practitioners felt that DPT was academic fluff and would not give them what they wanted

3) The VA medical center hires chiropractors and gives them physician level designation (like a dentist or an optometrist) and rank them AHEAD of a physical therapist.
The federal government recognizes it and most insurances cover it.

4) I go to my chiropractor because I have idiopathic back pain that only a properly trained doctor of chiropractic can treat me. Meds and physical therapy did not work.
I am very critical who my doctors are (family practice, chiropractic, dentistry, optometrist).

5) Alot of physical therapy training is included in chiropractic school----------they use the same books that PT schools use!
You have no idea that 50% of DC training is orthopedics and physical therapy, and electrotherapy & electrodiagnosis. 30% of it for 4 years was manipulation, the other 10% was medical imaging---we had access to an MRI, plain films, and other radiology modalities all the time.
I am sure you didn't know this.

6) The DC program I was in made me take one straight year of gross anatomy and associated neuroanatomy. I had to dissect EVERYTHING two 4 hour labs per week. It was as hard as the clinical doctorate program that I currently attend (in a different field).. The anatomy and physiology I learned then has served me well currently----> we used Netter almost exclusively.......You are wrong in this area.

7) I did observations and rotations with Orthopedic Surgeons and Physiatrists. Half of our instructors were MD's and Ph.D.s (I guess they sold out the huge salary that offered to them by the chiro school...lol)
There is a lot more integration than you know

8) The chiropractic schools vary greatly in philosophy and half of them are very legit while the the other half are questionable. I know more about this than you do.....Probably 85% of chiropractors are very legit, 5% are really shady, and 10% borderline. You are partially correct about this

9) I left because it wasn't for me but I had great grades and good recommendations from there.

9B) A lot of PT's work for chiropractors.
I can supply you with 50 links for practices like this if you want.

10) I HAVE A BACKGROUND IN THIS! You were off base making this assumption.

11) DO NOT MAKE BROAD GENERALIZATIONS ABOUT AN ENTIRE FIELD
You are dangerously falling into a narrow mined view of health care.

Remember Osteopathic Medicine in most of the world (not in the US) is like chiropractic.

I respect all fields of health care equally, physical therapy and chiropractic are both great fields!
 
I think we'll just have to part ways as I can see you already took the red pill on chiropractic. There is no point in trying to reason with someone who believes so much in this form of treatment. I am glad you feel it helps you - keep going.

I do not respect the field of chiropractic, and I am glad that came across. There is a reason medical and osteopathic schools are associated with major state universities, while most chiropractic schools are right next to the local Yarn Barn. The profession is widely regarded with disdain no matter how many multiples of $30,000 over a PT salary you can earn.

We will need to agree to disagree on this matter as we have entirely different belief systems. You advised keeping an open mind, and this is good advice to give someone whose mind is closed. My advise to you is to be more rigorous in defining your standards of care. Good luck in your treatments and career.
 
PT2MD,

Actually there is one chiropractic school associated with a state university at the University of Bridgeport College of Chiropractic

http://www.bridgeport.edu/pages/3239.asp

It is a clinical doctoral degree recognized in every state by the government and educational bodies. I am becoming an optometrist but I am a huge supporter of it and glad that chiropractic defeated the AMA in Wilk versus the AMA in 1987. Like I said, a lot of PT's work for DC's....I was in chicago recently and discovered this everywhere. Here is a couple sample programs

Doctor of Chiropractic Medicine Degree programs

http://www.txchiro.edu/

here is an example of an integrated clinic with family medicine

http://www.txchiro.edu/Moody/moody.htm

other programs

http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=33

http://www.scuhs.edu/chiropractic/

curriculum
http://www.scuhs.edu/chiropractic/schedule/

DC Program Curriculum


For a full list of course descriptions, click here.
First Trimester 465 Clock Hours / 24 Credit Hours
AT4071 Spine & Extremities Anatomy
AT4072 L Spine & Extremities Lab
AT4111 Histology & Embryology I
PB4081 Cell Physiology & Hematology
PB4091 Human Biochemistry
PB4092L Clinical Biochemistry Lab
CP6001 Chiropractic History & Principles
DX6011L Palpation


Second Trimester 480 Clock Hours / 26.5 Credit Hours
AT4073 Head & Neck Anatomy
AT4074L Head & Neck Anatomy Lab
AT4075 Neuroanatomy
PB4082 Neurophysiology
PM4031 Fundamentals of Pathology
PM4021 Fundamentals of Microbiology & Public Health
BP6100 Introduction to Business Principles
CP6002 Chiropractic Principles & Philosophy I
PT6151L Soft Tissue Technique
CP6333L Clinical Kinesiology
DI6051L Normal Radiographic Anatomy & Variants


Third Trimester 457.5 Clock Hours / 26.5 Credit Hours
AT4076 Thorax, Abdomen & Pelvis Anatomy
AT4077L Thorax, Abdomen & Pelvis Anatomy Lab
AT4112 Histology & Embryology II
PB4083 GI, Reproductive, Endocrine Physiology
PM5031 Systems Pathology I
PM5021 Clinical Microbiology & Public Health I
PB4093 Nutritional Biochemistry
CP6003 Chiropractic Principles & Philosophy II
CP6012L Extremities Biomechanics and Technique


Fourth Trimester 427.5 Clock Hours / 25 Credit Hours
AT4078 Genetics
PB4084 Cardio-Respiratory & Renal Physiology
PM5032 Systems Pathology II
PM5032L Systems Pathology Lab
PM5022 Clinical Microbiology & Public Health II
PM5022L Clinical Microbiology & Public Health Lab
NU5121 Science of Diet and Nutrition

CP6004 Introduction to Primary Care Chiropractic
CP6013L Lumbar Spine Biomechanics and Technique
DI6052 Radiation Physics & Technology

Fifth Trimester 450 Clock Hours / 26.5 Credit Hours
CP6331 Orthopedics I
CP6014L Cervical/Thoracic Spine Biomechanics & Technique
DI6053 Fundamentals of Imaging I: Arthritis and Trauma
DX6061 Laboratory Diagnosis
DX6062 Physical Diagnosis & Dermatology
PT6152L Soft Tissue Rehabilitation
NU6121 Botanical Medicine I
BP6101 Principles of Marketing & Communication
RE6001 Evidence Based Practice I
DX6314 Neurology


Sixth Trimester 465 Clock Hours / 27.5 Credit Hours
DX6311 GI, GU & Reproduction
DX6312 Cardio-Respiratory
PT6171 Physiological Therapeutics I
DI6054 Fundamentals of Imaging II: Tumors
CP6017L Advanced Technique
DX6065L Advanced Diagnosis
NU6321 Pharmacology & Toxicology
DX6313 EENT
DC6045 Clinical Observation I
CP6332 Orthopedics II
DX6315 Introduction to the Clinical Encounter
RE6002 Evidence Based Practice


Seventh Trimester 510 Clock Hours / 26.5 Credit Hours
NU6122 Clinical Nutrition
DI6055 Fundamentals of Imaging III: Chest & Abdomen
CP6019L Integrative Techniques
DX6066L Phlebotomy
DI6056L Radiographic Positioning / Advanced Imaging
DX6301 Psychopathology & Health Psychology
DX6067L Problem Solving
DC6046 Clinic Observation
CP6334 Orthopedics III
BP6102 Business Planning
CP6015L Flexion/Distraction Technique
PT6161L Rehabilitation
PT6172 Physiological Therapeutics II
EC6181 Emergency Care


Eighth Trimester (Fall 2006 Class Only) 555 Clock Hours / 26 Credit Hours
CS6101 Senior Seminars
DI6057 Radiology Report Writing
DC6047L Clinic Internship Orientation
DC7042L Clinic Internship II

Eighth Trimester (Begins Spring 2007) 465 Clock Hours / 28.5 Credit Hours
RE6003 Evidence Based Practice III
CP6103 Ethical Management of the Chiropractic Practice
DC7041L Student Clinic
DX6316 Special Populations: Pediatrics & Geriatrics
CP6018 Correlative Technique
DX6302 Doctor/Patient Relationship
CP6335 Chiropractic Primary Care
CP6103 Jurisprudence & Ethics
DI6057 Radiology Management / Report Writing
Elective Elective Course Choices

Ninth Trimester 495 Clock Hours / 19 Credit Hours
RE6004 Evidence Based Practice IV
DC7043L Internship I

Tenth Trimester 495 Clock Hours / 19 Credit Hours
RE6005 Evidence Based Practice V
DC7044L Internship II


And philosophy
http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=43

so you don't agree with the philosophy of non-invasive, non-drug first THEN more risky procedures---I DO.
As an optometrist in the future I will prescribe drugs for primary eye conditions with caution and ONLY if absolutely necessary, unlike alot of medical practitioners. You are probably going to have patients in the future-->depending on what area of medicine you enter who are going to want chiropractic treatment. A word of advice to you is not to be devicive or insulting to another profession (ie chiropractic) it will only make you look bad to a patient especially to one who has used chiropractic therapy. Chiropractic Manipulative Therapy has endured critics like you for over 100 years because it WORKS---not because "oooooh the chiropractor makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside"---that is absurd. My brother is now a DO and believes chiropractic is good for musculoskeletal conditions and for most types of manipulation. I am a very critical about things being scientifically sound (I helped with Chiropractic research regarding immoblized vertebral segments on test animals, fibrous adhesions forming, and the improvement of these after mobilization occurred.) [B]So please stop insulting me about the "red pill" crap----I believe that many aspects of chiropractic is scientifically sound with analogues existing in osteopathy, physiotherapy, and orthopedics. Stop insulting my intelligence with your comments. [/B] Most of western medicine is based on apriori evidence which is not scientific fact rather it equates to,"this is the best we know now and it seems to work." Medicine itself contains a lot of flaws and is becoming less of art and too much of a technical field. Art is important when it comes to dealing with human beings and the human condition.

Good Luck to ya bud......🙂
 
you too...🙂
 
I like the fact you can argue constructively.....many people on here cannot..........😉
 
I feel a lot of love here on this forum.
 
I currently work in a chiropractic office and it definitely has been an eye-opening experience. I had never been to a chiropractor before being hired, and I will probably never go to one in the future. I think manipulation can be an effective modality, but it seems as though that chiropractors discredit anything that the traditional medical community uses in terms of drugs or surgery unless they are treating a medical emergency. One of the docs educated the staff and myself that chiropractors have been prosecuted for claiming that chiropractic care can "cure" disease, so they have had to maintain a low profile so not to get in trouble with the law. While I am not convinced of all the claims made by chiropractors, I definitely will not discredit them. One point made by one of the chiros is that if chiropractic care didn't work, it would not have lasted as long as it has. I think that chiropractic care and physical therapy are good complements to one another. If a chiropractor realigns the spine, a therapist can then retrain the muscles to keep the adjustments in place. I hope that my experience in their office will allow me talk intelligently to patients who may have a question about chiropractors after I graduate from osteopathic medical school or even during.
 
futuredoctorOD said:
PT2MD,
I am going to preface my response by saying I respect physical therapy and chiropractic equally---both are noble fields.

You need to shrug off this feeling of animosity as you are being a little too emotional about this. Your comment about me knowing "nothing" about this is off base. My early academic background was as a personal trainer and exercise physiologist. Several years ago I was in a DC program on the west coast and completed half of it-->I actually got accepted to one DC program and one DPT program (both were not that difficult to get accepted to) ! I chose DC because it was the one that is recognized by the public as a "doctor" of some sort....and it payed a lot better. (about $30,000 better on the average)

1) The school I attended did not accept subluxation theory whatsoever and used AMA orthopedic books for many many things. Many things I learned where based off of sound evidence based science...(i.e Kirkaldy-Willis model of back pain, Rand Study on the effectiveness of manipulation, etc...)
The school was very difficult and I still remember alot of my neuro pathways ie DCML, ALS, etc.....as well as my anatomy.

2) As a matter of fact 6 people in my class where PT's (4 had a masters, and 2 had a bs.) They all shared the same desire to become autonomous level practitioners and combine both degrees skills. they all left as D.C. P.T.
Those practitioners felt that DPT was academic fluff and would not give them what they wanted

3) The VA medical center hires chiropractors and gives them physician level designation (like a dentist or an optometrist) and rank them AHEAD of a physical therapist.
The federal government recognizes it and most insurances cover it.

4) I go to my chiropractor because I have idiopathic back pain that only a properly trained doctor of chiropractic can treat me. Meds and physical therapy did not work.
I am very critical who my doctors are (family practice, chiropractic, dentistry, optometrist).

5) Alot of physical therapy training is included in chiropractic school----------they use the same books that PT schools use!
You have no idea that 50% of DC training is orthopedics and physical therapy, and electrotherapy & electrodiagnosis. 30% of it for 4 years was manipulation, the other 10% was medical imaging---we had access to an MRI, plain films, and other radiology modalities all the time.
I am sure you didn't know this.

6) The DC program I was in made me take one straight year of gross anatomy and associated neuroanatomy. I had to dissect EVERYTHING two 4 hour labs per week. It was as hard as the clinical doctorate program that I currently attend (in a different field).. The anatomy and physiology I learned then has served me well currently----> we used Netter almost exclusively.......You are wrong in this area.

7) I did observations and rotations with Orthopedic Surgeons and Physiatrists. Half of our instructors were MD's and Ph.D.s (I guess they sold out the huge salary that offered to them by the chiro school...lol)
There is a lot more integration than you know

8) The chiropractic schools vary greatly in philosophy and half of them are very legit while the the other half are questionable. I know more about this than you do.....Probably 85% of chiropractors are very legit, 5% are really shady, and 10% borderline. You are partially correct about this

9) I left because it wasn't for me but I had great grades and good recommendations from there.

9B) A lot of PT's work for chiropractors.
I can supply you with 50 links for practices like this if you want.

10) I HAVE A BACKGROUND IN THIS! You were off base making this assumption.

11) DO NOT MAKE BROAD GENERALIZATIONS ABOUT AN ENTIRE FIELD
You are dangerously falling into a narrow mined view of health care.

Remember Osteopathic Medicine in most of the world (not in the US) is like chiropractic.

I respect all fields of health care equally, physical therapy and chiropractic are both great fields!
Click to expand...

It will be difficult to have constructive debate with you on this topic since you are obviously very biased. As I read your post I had a feeling that there was a chiropractic back ground in there somewhere.

But the problems is that many of what you say about PT and DC are just incorrect. You have absolutely no idea about what the PT field is like and what the PT profession is about... I think I have would have a much better idea about this than you.

PTs where I live have complete direct access just like any DC. The notion that DCs make more money by 30,000 than any PT is somewhat misleading. A DC with a good clientale in private practise will probably make more money then a PT who works in an in-patient hospital setting..BUT.. a PT who owns thier own private practise with a good clientale will make just as much money as a DC if not more and they will have an easier time opening a clinic and having the support of the rest of the heath care system(i think I would have a much better idea about this than you).

95% of the PTs from my graduating class will go on to take furthur advance level training in manipulation and manual therapy not just weekend seminar courses. In my class there are 3 people with PhDs and one of my instructors was a DC who went back to school to be a PT. I have recently talked to a few new DC graduates who will be applying to PT school because they cant stand the stigma of the profession and the field is soo saturated now that its very hard for a new DC graduate to make a good living .. I will take thier word for it since they know much more about what the market is like for new DCs now a days. DCs did made a lot of money in the 80s, 90s during the insurance boom frauding the insurance companies but that time seems like has now come to an end.

I also had the choice to go into either DC or PT school .. and I choose PT infact everyone from my undergrad class who got into PT chooose PT instead of DC and the ones who went into DC did not have to grades to get into a public university PT program and they are now thinking about changing.

DCs always try to say that their are only a few bad apples around and that most of the DCs are ethical and dont believe in the subluxation theory. Well around my area there are several chiro clinics that are owned by DCs who actually went to the most "evidenced based" chiro school in the world and yet they openly advertise that they can cure systemic diseases ...these are not just a few bad apples this a very large chunk of the profession. I can post several links to their websites .. if you do research then you will see that many chiros (not just a few bad apples)still preach subluxation.



DCs have been doing manipulations for decades yet it is the PT profession who is producing the best evidence for manipulation and prediction rules and other MSK rehab research. I can post the research if you like. If you follow the research and evidence like you say you do ..then you should have known this!!

DCs have yet to come up with any research on chiropractic treatment curing systemic diseases... after all these years.....makes you wonder...

I will never work for a chiropractor and most of the PTs graduating from my class do not want to work for chiropractor and will not. THe PT clinics where I have done my clinical placements would not treat patients for the same condition concurrently with a chiropractor because they were worried about liability and they were also trained in manipulation therapy as well so there was no reason for chiropractic treatment.

This will probably turn into an endless debate but if you can adress anything I have said specifically then I would like to hear it...if not have a good day.

One last quesiton are you sure you are still not a chiropractor ...cause you say all the typical faulse arguements that I have heard from other chiropractors in the past.
 
Buckeye4life said:
I currently work in a chiropractic office and it definitely has been an eye-opening experience. I had never been to a chiropractor before being hired, and I will probably never go to one in the future. I think manipulation can be an effective modality, but it seems as though that chiropractors discredit anything that the traditional medical community uses in terms of drugs or surgery unless they are treating a medical emergency. One of the docs educated the staff and myself that chiropractors have been prosecuted for claiming that chiropractic care can "cure" disease, so they have had to maintain a low profile so not to get in trouble with the law. While I am not convinced of all the claims made by chiropractors, I definitely will not discredit them. One point made by one of the chiros is that if chiropractic care didn't work, it would not have lasted as long as it has. I think that chiropractic care and physical therapy are good complements to one another. If a chiropractor realigns the spine, a therapist can then retrain the muscles to keep the adjustments in place. I hope that my experience in their office will allow me talk intelligently to patients who may have a question about chiropractors after I graduate from osteopathic medical school or even during.
Click to expand...

Hey buck,

I will point you to this link:

Tell me what kind of profession supports these kind of believes and standards:
http://www.icpa4kids.org/why/whychiro.htm


This definetly enough for me to discredit them.. but there is much much more where that came from. I am not saying all DCs are unethical ....but a large chunk are and the foundation of the profession was built on is the biggest problem...this is why so many of the MDs I know are very skeptical about chiros ..right fully so .. you just cant be sure which ones are the good ones and which are the bad ones.
 
ONstudentPT said:
Hey buck,

I will point you to this link:

Tell me what kind of profession supports these kind of believes and standards:
http://www.icpa4kids.org/why/whychiro.htm


This definetly enough for me to discredit them.. but there is much much more where that came from. I am not saying all DCs are unethical ....but a large chunk are and the foundation of the profession was built on is the biggest problem...this is why so many of the MDs I know are very skeptical about chiros ..right fully so .. you just cant be sure which ones are the good ones and which are the bad ones.
Click to expand...

I have been working in their clinic for 5 weeks basically out of necessity (reasons I will not go into) until I start med school. I won't discredit them because I have not read much research to prove or disprove their treatments work. There was an interesting study called the Winsor Autopsies showing diseased organs having a relationship with a specific sympathetic spinal segment. On the flip side, we teach and sometimes use modalities, such as cranio-sacral and ultrasound, which have not been proven to be effective. Also, part of the reason that PTs have problems with reimbursement today is because of the PTs back in the day being unethical with their practices. i.e. everyone getting hotpacks no matter what. Don't get me wrong, I an pro-PT and always will be. I just think that chiropractors are painted in a bad light because traditional schools of thought teach them to be anti-chiro from the beginning, not because of any first hand experience with chiropractic care. I would bet most MD's dislike chiros because it affects their bottom line. The AMA has a strong history of trying to snuff out any organizations that are in direct competition. Osteopathic medicine in california back in the 60's being the biggest example that comes to my mind. Come to think of it, even traditional western medicine was built on the tenets of over the top treatments such as blood letting and such but we don't discredit modern medicine because of shady roots.
 
Buckeye4life said:
Come to think of it, even traditional western medicine was built on the tenets of over the top treatments such as blood letting and such but we don't discredit modern medicine because of shady roots.
Click to expand...


But medicine eventually moved beyond these roots and has evolved. My beef with chiros is not only have they had difficulty evolving, they have created and profited from even more bogus treatments. I had a patient tell me the other day their chiro dipped their feet in a tub of water and told them they had toxins based on the color change of the water. Miraculously, the patients water turned blue while his wife's turned green. Based on this diagnostic technique, the chiropractor signed them up for an extensive course of herbal supplements designed to aid in toxin removal. If you can seriously make this part of your belief system as a provider...you either don't have a firm grip on reality or are a criminal. There are real physicians that are just as shady, BUT the culture of treatments in the allopathic and osteopathic professons marginalize these providers.

You won't find providers that know more about the spine than chiropractors. I think if they stuck to the spine and necessary manipulations, there wouldn't be such a beef. There's plenty of room for anyone who knows their role.
 
Buckeye4life said:
I have been working in their clinic for 5 weeks basically out of necessity (reasons I will not go into) until I start med school. I won't discredit them because I have not read much research to prove or disprove their treatments work. There was an interesting study called the Winsor Autopsies showing diseased organs having a relationship with a specific sympathetic spinal segment. On the flip side, we teach and sometimes use modalities, such as cranio-sacral and ultrasound, which have not been proven to be effective. Also, part of the reason that PTs have problems with reimbursement today is because of the PTs back in the day being unethical with their practices. i.e. everyone getting hotpacks no matter what. Don't get me wrong, I an pro-PT and always will be. I just think that chiropractors are painted in a bad light because traditional schools of thought teach them to be anti-chiro from the beginning, not because of any first hand experience with chiropractic care. I would bet most MD's dislike chiros because it affects their bottom line. The AMA has a strong history of trying to snuff out any organizations that are in direct competition. Osteopathic medicine in california back in the 60's being the biggest example that comes to my mind. Come to think of it, even traditional western medicine was built on the tenets of over the top treatments such as blood letting and such but we don't discredit modern medicine because of shady roots.
Click to expand...


I agree that back in the day there was the hot back run around in some of the out-patient clinics and there will always be some who are involved in some shady things in every profession..but I can tell you as a graduating PT...we are tought to follow evidence ..and I will not use cranio-sacral therapy ..nor will I use U/S for much else than some calcific tendenitis which there is research for....

did you read the above webiste...when have PTs ever promoted infant manipulation, claimed to cure systemics diseases like Cancer, AIDs, deafness, ADHD..etc...I first handedly have seen these chiros claims made by chiros in many advertisements ...and these are not rare cases ..take a look at your area and look up some chiros around there and I will bet if you check thier advertising you will see some form of subluxation theory promotion by many chiros..rather then just a few bad apples...

please you know of any good quality research which proves these claims post the references for me ...I tried looking for the on medline, embas, pubmed...and I have yet to see anything thats even close to convincing.


Manipulation is a good tool to use for specific patients with MSK related conditions.. this what the research done by PTs has shown...but not for systemic diseases


Also you say you have been only there for 5 weeks well this will give you a chance to get a close look at whats going on...the chiro thier may be a more ethical one ... but most likely you will find that he will have some beliefs and practises that will be questionable.. like telling patients they need to continue coming for long periods of time to be healthy....

I know this is a touchy issue for those who have commited soo much time and money to go into a profession ...but its always good to ask questions.. and be skeptical....keeping the patients best interests at hand.
 
PT2MD said:
But medicine eventually moved beyond these roots and has evolved. My beef with chiros is not only have they had difficulty evolving, they have created and profited from even more bogus treatments. I had a patient tell me the other day their chiro dipped their feet in a tub of water and told them they had toxins based on the color change of the water. Miraculously, the patients water turned blue while his wife's turned green. Based on this diagnostic technique, the chiropractor signed them up for an extensive course of herbal supplements designed to aid in toxin removal. If you can seriously make this part of your belief system as a provider...you either don't have a firm grip on reality or are a criminal. There are real physicians that are just as shady, BUT the culture of treatments in the allopathic and osteopathic professons marginalize these providers.

You won't find providers that know more about the spine than chiropractors. I think if they stuck to the spine and necessary manipulations, there wouldn't be such a beef. There's plenty of room for anyone who knows their role.
Click to expand...

ONstudentPT said:
I agree that back in the day there was the hot back run around in some of the out-patient clinics and there will always be some who are involved in some shady things in every profession..but I can tell you as a graduating PT...we are tought to follow evidence ..and I will not use cranio-sacral therapy ..nor will I use U/S for much else than some calcific tendenitis which there is research for....

did you read the above webiste...when have PTs ever promoted infant manipulation, claimed to cure systemics diseases like Cancer, AIDs, deafness, ADHD..etc...I first handedly have seen these chiros claims made by chiros in many advertisements ...and these are not rare cases ..take a look at your area and look up some chiros around there and I will bet if you check thier advertising you will see some form of subluxation theory promotion by many chiros..rather then just a few bad apples...

please you know of any good quality research which proves these claims post the references for me ...I tried looking for the on medline, embas, pubmed...and I have yet to see anything thats even close to convincing.


Manipulation is a good tool to use for specific patients with MSK related conditions.. this what the research done by PTs has shown...but not for systemic diseases


Also you say you have been only there for 5 weeks well this will give you a chance to get a close look at whats going on...the chiro thier may be a more ethical one ... but most likely you will find that he will have some beliefs and practises that will be questionable.. like telling patients they need to continue coming for long periods of time to be healthy....

I know this is a touchy issue for those who have commited soo much time and money to go into a profession ...but its always good to ask questions.. and be skeptical....keeping the patients best interests at hand.
Click to expand...

I concede. You guys win. Chiropractors are quacks and they don't help anybody. They may as well close shop and become shamans. I'm just going to be blissfully ignorant and tell the millions of people who say chiropractors help them that they are delusional and are better off lighting some incense. Also, I'll make sure to ask plenty of questions, do plenty of research and actually practice it, scoff at anyone who takes a more holistic approach to health and wellness, and give plenty of anecdotal proof I've gotten from patients. Almost forgot, I'll make sure that I talk down to people who have been out in the field for a few years and may have picked up a little knowledge and wisdom from actually being out in the trenches.🙂
 
Buckeye4life said:
I concede. You guys win. Chiropractors are quacks and they don't help anybody. They may as well close shop and become shamans. I'm just going to be blissfully ignorant and tell the millions of people who say chiropractors help them that they are delusional and are better off lighting some incense. Also, I'll make sure to ask plenty of questions, do plenty of research and actually practice it, scoff at anyone who takes a more holistic approach to health and wellness, and give plenty of anecdotal proof I've gotten from patients. Almost forgot, I'll make sure that I talk down to people who have been out in the field for a few years and may have picked up a little knowledge and wisdom from actually being out in the trenches.🙂
Click to expand...

"They may as well close shop and become shamans"

I spit my cola on the monitor laughing when I read this.

Not making fun of the profession in any way.
 
Buckeye4life said:
I concede. You guys win. Chiropractors are quacks and they don't help anybody. They may as well close shop and become shamans. I'm just going to be blissfully ignorant and tell the millions of people who say chiropractors help them that they are delusional and are better off lighting some incense. Also, I'll make sure to ask plenty of questions, do plenty of research and actually practice it, scoff at anyone who takes a more holistic approach to health and wellness, and give plenty of anecdotal proof I've gotten from patients. Almost forgot, I'll make sure that I talk down to people who have been out in the field for a few years and may have picked up a little knowledge and wisdom from actually being out in the trenches.🙂
Click to expand...

Let me repeat...chiros can manipulate better than most but overstate their role. Never said shamen (although the foot-food coloring test might suggest otherwise). Your use of sarcasm shows weakness in your position.

You crack me up with the wisdom comment. Wisdom is not the wholesale adoption of any treatment protocols simply because they use buzzwords such as "holistic", "treating the whole person", or "herbal remedy". Blind faith without SOME adherence to evidence makes one a faith healer. Now before you get pissed again - there is nothing wrong with faith. However, when faith interferes with reason, we have a problem. Wisdom is knowing how to strike a balance between evidence and intuition. It's not easy to find this balance...but strict devotion to either side will definitely not lead you there.

Here's an example. There is strong evidence that chiropractic manipulation IS beneficial for a specific range of cervical and lumbar pathology, but not all. This makes chiropractic a very good option for a small range of patients. The same can be said for PT, anti-inflammatories, etc...This is a good example of how evidence helps chiropractors, particularly the ones who have abandoned the archaic subluxation theory.

However, there is either no or insufficient evidence that chiropractic manipulation, applied kinesiology, or other fringe therapies associated with chiropractors improves the myriad of pathologies they advertise. This is not a benign or harmless issue either. These therapies can delay necessary treatments and expose patients to multiple doses of unnecessary radiation via serial x-rays. This is where I believe both the lack of evidence and devotion to faith continues to hurt the chiropractic profession. (and its patients)

If the chiros show a continued commitment away from the subluxation theory and other fringe philosophy's, I will be the first one in line to sing their praises. You can continue calling me close-minded all you like. However, when your faith in chiropractic blinds you to the facts, you have to at least reconsider who truly has the closed mind.
 
My brother is a professor in the secondary education department at a state university. In the past year he has been advisor to no less than 10 Chiros seeking secondary science certification so they could teach HS science. He says in talking with them that it has to do with several of the points made here. Saturation, their opportunities were working for established clinics at lower salaries than a PT would make on a hospital staff. Those who did try to open their own clinic met with tremendous competition. I swear every strip mall in my area has a Chiro set up in it so I can see where the competition is tough for the gullible clients. I wonder what the stats are for DCs not working in their field. It seems very high to me as I run into quite a few, but I also live near a DC school so that might have something to do with it.
 
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