any content diagnostic pathologists?

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mlw03

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The title says it all. Is there anyone on here who is a diagnostic pathologist (academic or private practice) who is actually content, or even possibly happy, with their job situation? I have to believe there is a major sampling bias on this forum, because if all pathologists were as discontent as most of the posters here, we'd have such a mass exodus from the field that there'd be no one left to so much as read a prostate biopsy.
 
mlw03- Some of us older diagnostic pathologists are trying to make sure a medical student choosing pathology is not surprised that they have to move (perhaps a few times), have to really hunt for a good job, etc. Apologies to those who've read my post below before, but here I go again.........

I don't think that our undesirable job market situation means that you unequivocally cannot go into pathology. My take is that in our specialty it is much harder to get a good job- and to keep the job good (yes, I mean it that way). A lot of the misunderstanding (and I was definitely guilty of this) revolves around the concept of "everyone is getting a job- it can't be that bad". The oversupply continues to affect us when we're in that job position, which really took me by surprise😱 There is a large pool not only of new grads but also of practicing pathologists looking to get out of their current situation. All the mailing of CV's, cold calling, etc. that has been going on for years starts to put ideas in the heads of group leaders, chairmen, administrators and businesspeople (Ameripath for example). Finding your niche in an evolving area such as molecular pathology or becoming an "expert" in a specific area are examples of things you may consider as a way to still do pathology. Only trying to help with these thoughts.
 
That's a great question mlw...

Alternatively, I often wonder how many of our clinical colleagues are content. And of the ones who are, what specialties do they hail from?

I know breast surgeons and urologists (in academic) who absolutely hate their practice. I'm not completely sure why, but I imagine that academic politics have some role in it.

As an academician and a subspecialist, I know I can make more dough in the private sector. I choose to stay in academia and put up with the cons because of the pros- of course, one needs to bear in mind that one person's "pros" would certainly be another's "cons". For example, I love teaching medical students, pathology residents and clinical specialty residents- I have many friends that hate doing that. I love being a member of a patient management team at tumor boards- I don't know how tumor boards are conducted elsewhere, but where I'm at, I sit at the helm, side by side with the heme/rad oncs, surgeons and radiologists, talking about our patients. Practicing in an academic behemoth, I know more clinical medicine than some pathology friends who've been out in private practice- which is absolutely fine, it is what it is, but it's one of the "pros" in my book. I'm not a clinical scientist, but being in academics, and a subspecialist, I can do basic projects ("research" I suppose) on immuno panel X or tumor Y with pattern Z. Additionally, I have clinical colleagues who are also in all levels and manners of research, which paves the road for collaboration and mutual respect.
 
The title says it all. Is there anyone on here who is a diagnostic pathologist (academic or private practice) who is actually content, or even possibly happy, with their job situation? I have to believe there is a major sampling bias on this forum, because if all pathologists were as discontent as most of the posters here, we'd have such a mass exodus from the field that there'd be no one left to so much as read a prostate biopsy.

i am quite happy. my job is my hobby and i get paid well for it. i will work as long as my health allows.
 
i am quite happy. my job is my hobby and i get paid well for it. i will work as long as my health allows.

Mike got paid millions selling his practice to corporate pathology. Most of us do not have this opportunity and are fighting with other pathologists for specimens as there isn't near enough work to go around. Of course hospitals and referring clinicians realize this in addition to insurance companies so it is a race to the bottom for the field.
 
This is so true in so many circumstances. Its frightening to think that we may all be employed by corporate labs someday. What's worse is that these guys that sold out won't even retire and allow someone younger to jumpstart their career. We've been royally screwed by the generation ahead of us. I was lucky to find a job this year but truly feel bad for those who couldn't secure employment. I got cold e-mailed by a few looking for last ditch fellowships in desperation this past spring. Here's a sample copied and pasted directly from my inbox.

'Hi, I'm a surgical pathology fellow and I was interested in doing a cytopathology fellowship at *** if a position is still available this July 2012. Do you know if there is still an opening? Thanks.'

After I responded no I got the following reply:

'Thanks for the reply. The job search is a bit tough right now so I'm considering a second fellowship at this stage. Best of luck to you as well.'

This was sent to me in April. Now if people want to sugar coat things and say its just this board and everyone they know got jobs...fine. Most everyone that I know secured employment but that didn't come without significant anxiety and stress over finding work.
 
Mike got paid millions selling his practice to corporate pathology. Most of us do not have this opportunity and are fighting with other pathologists for specimens as there isn't near enough work to go around. Of course hospitals and referring clinicians realize this in addition to insurance companies so it is a race to the bottom for the field.

Please let's not go there in this thread. There are plenty of them going where that's the tone, and that wasn't the goal of this one. I simply want to know who is happy in their job, and if so, why?
 
Mike got paid millions selling his practice to corporate pathology. Most of us do not have this opportunity and are fighting with other pathologists for specimens as there isn't near enough work to go around. Of course hospitals and referring clinicians realize this in addition to insurance companies so it is a race to the bottom for the field.

Hate the game not the playa. You would have done the same thing. Celebrate mikes an his generations success.
 
Hate the game not the playa. You would have done the same thing. Celebrate mikes an his generations success.

I would have to agree. If it was you, me or anyone else, he/she would've done the same thing.
 
The title says it all. Is there anyone on here who is a diagnostic pathologist (academic or private practice) who is actually content, or even possibly happy, with their job situation? I have to believe there is a major sampling bias on this forum, because if all pathologists were as discontent as most of the posters here, we'd have such a mass exodus from the field that there'd be no one left to so much as read a prostate biopsy.
I am very content with my job. I do feel lucky that I landed a great job on my first try and that I do not have to concern myself with the question, "Where do I go next?"

A few places have tried to gauge my interest in moving (informal recruiting, I suppose) in the last year so I guess I can't complain about the lack of opportunities. But I'm happy where I am.
 
I love my private practice job. Of course, I was incredibly lucky to get it and can name 10 people off the top of my head who would pull their own teeth out to have it. It was all about timing, persistence, and luckily having the skill set that the group needed. I paid some dues to get this nice job for sure.

Good jobs and happy pathologists are out there. They are unfortunately not the majority though, IMO.
 
Ok, taking this a bit forward, those that are happy, why? Please let's not let this thread be another "why private practice path sucks" - there are plenty currently going people can read. But for the ones out there that do like their jobs, maybe there are some common threads.

I've come to believe happiness is a ratio of our reality to our expectation; higher ratio, more happy. Are the people that are happy those that have a better reality, lower expectations, or both? To cite my own example in FP, I had certain expectations: I'd work for a government, I'd have decent hours with little/no call, I'd have to work some holidays, and pay would not be as high as my colleagues who went into private practice path. I had those expectations because I'd research the field. Now I'm generally content because I've met or exceeded those expectations. Are some of our unhappy colleagues entering diagnostic pathology with accurate ideas about what their life will be like? I'm not asking these questions confrontationally, but rather to try and see if there may be easy solutions to increasing the mean happiness in our field. Do interested MS3 and MS4s really know what the day to day life of a diagnostic community pathologist is? If not, how do we fix that? How do we make sure the only med school exposure to pathology isn't academic path at their school (since that rarely represents the same work environment they'll be in)?

As a slight aside and to plug FP to residents considering their fellowship options, there have been another set of articles in the media this past week about the shortage of FPs throughout the US. There's about 30-40 fellows each year, and I know of none in recent years who wanted to practice FP full time and was unable to find a job (even without having passed AP boards in some cases).
 
I am in private practice and I am quite happy. However, we are always staring off the ledge of a cliff in terms of reimbursement, and always looking into the abyss. If things stay like they are now though, I'll be happy as can be.
 
After working in pathology all these years, I would not recommend it to anyone. The lack of stable employment being the main reason. I am retiring young and moving into farming. Doubt my job will be filled so dont get excited.

With hospitals buying up practices like crazy, I have a feeling other specialties are gonna suck in the future as well. The affordable health care act is a gift to hospitals.
 
Good for you! Live off the fat of the land. There has been some pretty terrible droughts the past couple years. Would you rather bet on the weather or ability to get prostate and cervix biopsies from the local clinicians?

QUOTE=WEBB PINKERTON;12936500]After working in pathology all these years, I would not recommend it to anyone. The lack of stable employment being the main reason. I am retiring young and moving into farming. Doubt my job will be filled so dont get excited.

With hospitals buying up practices like crazy, I have a feeling other specialties are gonna suck in the future as well. The affordable health care act is a gift to hospitals.[/QUOTE]
 
After working in pathology all these years, I would not recommend it to anyone. The lack of stable employment being the main reason. I am retiring young and moving into farming. Doubt my job will be filled so dont get excited.

With hospitals buying up practices like crazy, I have a feeling other specialties are gonna suck in the future as well. The affordable health care act is a gift to hospitals.

Are you in a group practice or do you work in a reference lab? Reading your previous posts, seems like you talk about cytology/pap smears a lot.
 
Group. I talk about paps alot because they are the only specimens we have actually seen an increase in thanks to area gyn practices getting bought out. Dont even like talking about tissue since our tissue accessions been going down fast. Bunch of docs decided to start a surgery center in town so we've been hurting. The physicians hate the hospital and everyone associated with it. They hired a group of anestesiologists from like 50 miles away to cover their surgery center. About the only business we have is the hospital affiliated practices.

Thank god I bought a lot of farms when they werent too outrageous.

I feel bad for anyone that has decided to go into pathology. Make some money and plan an escape.
 
Group. I talk about paps alot because they are the only specimens we have actually seen an increase in thanks to area gyn practices getting bought out. Dont even like talking about tissue since our tissue accessions been going down fast. Bunch of docs decided to start a surgery center in town so we've been hurting. The physicians hate the hospital and everyone associated with it. They hired a group of anestesiologists from like 50 miles away to cover their surgery center. About the only business we have is the hospital affiliated practices.

Thank god I bought a lot of farms when they werent too outrageous.

I feel bad for anyone that has decided to go into pathology. Make some money and plan an escape.

If you don't mind me asking, what part of the country do you work in?

Are you in a rural setting?
 
Count me in as happy and content.

I knew I wanted to be in private practice from the get-go, as I was never enthused about having a career in research (although I did do research as a med student and resident).

I was lucky enough to land my dream job, in a dream location with an awesome group of colleagues. Sure there are challenges in private practice (market pressures, potential loss of specimens, contract negotiations, etc), but I'd rather deal with that than the pressure to publish or scale the academic ladder.

In my experience, no job is perfect. It's how you approach it that matters. What I have now has exceeded my expectations, and I, like Andy, am happy that I landed a great job on the first try and don't have to worry about looking for anything else.
 
People today in general today are spoiled and unrealistic and so personality itself may preclude declaration of wholehearted satisfaction. In truth all jobs will have a balance of positive and negative factors and most of us will tolerate a dick boss or colleague(s) for a competitive salary or relocate to a <100% desired locality to get to focus on a specialty. I'd classify myself and most as "reserved contentment"
 
People today in general today are spoiled and unrealistic and so personality itself may preclude declaration of wholehearted satisfaction. In truth all jobs will have a balance of positive and negative factors and most of us will tolerate a dick boss or colleague(s) for a competitive salary or relocate to a <100% desired locality to get to focus on a specialty. I'd classify myself and most as "reserved contentment"


Maybe so, but in general I find pathologists a fairly complacent bunch. They're typically not the most ambitious folks, save for a few who are particularly enterprising.
 
I love my job. I apologize ahead of time for the long post but I could write a dissertation length musing about how my job is great and it wouldn't begin to outnumber the lines written on this board saying every job available is dismal. So I doubt what I'm about to write is going to change many opinions.

I'm in private practice, I've been here two months after doing my residency here and leaving for fellowship, it was the only interview I went on and was offered the job during the interview. There are 8 partners and 2 partnership tracked members including myself. Partnership begins with a half share in year 4 and a full share in year 5. The buy-in is $100.00 (one hundred - they consider the work you do in the nonpartnership years to be the effective real buy). In 30 years this group has failed to progress a single person to partner, a slightly larger number have left, either to enter academics or to move to a city they preferred more. They let you know in 1 year if they will progress you. The benefits are great including life, disability, health, dental, vision, health savings account, books, conferences, license fees, professional fees etc.

<O😛I'm busy most of the day but not overwhelmed, the group has had between 50 and 60k surgical specimens per year for the last 5 years; this year it appears we will hit somewhere between those two numbers once again. The work is divided evenly between all docs (the only thing they do by seniority is choosing vacation -- vacation time is generous). As an example 11 docs means 4 - 5 weekends of call per year and my first weekend is the last of September; holiday coverage is divided equally as well. Everyone encourages getting second opinions whenever needed/wanted. Everyone is happy to cover for you if you have a conflict. We have a few strategies for dealing with the potential loss of business to pod labs that have worked out quite favorably for the group and the other clinicians in this hospital system are friendly and easy to work with. The volume of cases means we get a good mix of bread/butter that can be signed out quickly and with little difficulty to interesting cases that take some reading/consultation with a colleague to vanishingly rare fascinating cases which challenge everyone who looks at them and are, quite frankly, a joy to work through.

<O😛Politics are minimal and differences of opinion are handled exclusively within the group. Mistakes which do happen are dealt with with education and, if needed, changes in procedures. No one ever says things like "this lesion was diagnosed incorrectly by colleague x" instead we say "after further consultation within the group we all feel as though this difficult case would be best described as x" or some variation.

<O😛There is a residency program here as well so the opportunity to teach and the accompanying learning opportunities are nice. Since we aren't required to publish to progress I can focus on teaching the residents right at the scope - which is what I prefer.

<O😛When I entered pathology I expected to practice pathology, I didn't have expectations regarding large amounts of money or prestige but that could have been colored by the fact that I'm the first physician in my family. I can certainly imagine that if my parents were both pathologists and practiced in the 70's and 80's the money I make now would seem dismal. Compared to the teacher's salary my mother raised me on pathology is a relative boon - and since I love the work it's even better. I sincerely feel for everyone who is having a hard time getting a job or getting a job they enjoy as much as they'd like. I know there are jobs out there that aren't ideal. I can honestly say, however, that no one I know personally has one of those jobs. The issues that people raise on this board about reimbursement, pod labs, oversupply, etc are legitimate and deserve attention certainly. However, those that make it seem to ambitious trainees and medical students that things are hopeless and getting worse do a disservice to this profession. There are good and great jobs out there - the one commonality I've seen with people that get them is that these people love their jobs and the profession of pathology - BEFORE they get the great job.
 
The issues that people raise on this board about reimbursement, pod labs, oversupply, etc are legitimate and deserve attention certainly. However, those that make it seem to ambitious trainees and medical students that things are hopeless and getting worse do a disservice to this profession.

The truth hurts man. If someone is hell bent on becoming a pathologist so be it, but I would wholeheartedly recommend any medical student who is on the fence to pursue training in a different specialty. Noone is doing a disservice to this profession by sharing their stories, experiences, and discontent with their choice of specialty. If the ship is sinking, why invite others to join in the misery. Not everyone got a partnership track position like you (the fact that noone has reached partner in 30 years is an example of the exploitative nature of this field). The fact of the matter is most of us will be employed by corporations sooner or later. Corporations won't sell practices back to pathologists once they buy out a group. So this trend of corporate buyouts will seemingly continue until there are few private practices left. Who wouldn't want to sell out for a couple mil?
 
I love my job. I apologize ahead of time for the long post but I could write a dissertation length musing about how my job is great and it wouldn't begin to outnumber the lines written on this board saying every job available is dismal. So I doubt what I'm about to write is going to change many opinions.

I'm in private practice, I've been here two months after doing my residency here and leaving for fellowship, it was the only interview I went on and was offered the job during the interview. There are 8 partners and 2 partnership tracked members including myself. Partnership begins with a half share in year 4 and a full share in year 5. The buy-in is $100.00 (one hundred - they consider the work you do in the nonpartnership years to be the effective real buy). In 30 years this group has failed to progress a single person to partner, a slightly larger number have left, either to enter academics or to move to a city they preferred more. They let you know in 1 year if they will progress you. The benefits are great including life, disability, health, dental, vision, health savings account, books, conferences, license fees, professional fees etc.

<O😛I'm busy most of the day but not overwhelmed, the group has had between 50 and 60k surgical specimens per year for the last 5 years; this year it appears we will hit somewhere between those two numbers once again. The work is divided evenly between all docs (the only thing they do by seniority is choosing vacation -- vacation time is generous). As an example 11 docs means 4 - 5 weekends of call per year and my first weekend is the last of September; holiday coverage is divided equally as well. Everyone encourages getting second opinions whenever needed/wanted. Everyone is happy to cover for you if you have a conflict. We have a few strategies for dealing with the potential loss of business to pod labs that have worked out quite favorably for the group and the other clinicians in this hospital system are friendly and easy to work with. The volume of cases means we get a good mix of bread/butter that can be signed out quickly and with little difficulty to interesting cases that take some reading/consultation with a colleague to vanishingly rare fascinating cases which challenge everyone who looks at them and are, quite frankly, a joy to work through.

<O😛Politics are minimal and differences of opinion are handled exclusively within the group. Mistakes which do happen are dealt with with education and, if needed, changes in procedures. No one ever says things like "this lesion was diagnosed incorrectly by colleague x" instead we say "after further consultation within the group we all feel as though this difficult case would be best described as x" or some variation.

<O😛There is a residency program here as well so the opportunity to teach and the accompanying learning opportunities are nice. Since we aren't required to publish to progress I can focus on teaching the residents right at the scope - which is what I prefer.

<O😛When I entered pathology I expected to practice pathology, I didn't have expectations regarding large amounts of money or prestige but that could have been colored by the fact that I'm the first physician in my family. I can certainly imagine that if my parents were both pathologists and practiced in the 70's and 80's the money I make now would seem dismal. Compared to the teacher's salary my mother raised me on pathology is a relative boon - and since I love the work it's even better. I sincerely feel for everyone who is having a hard time getting a job or getting a job they enjoy as much as they'd like. I know there are jobs out there that aren't ideal. I can honestly say, however, that no one I know personally has one of those jobs. The issues that people raise on this board about reimbursement, pod labs, oversupply, etc are legitimate and deserve attention certainly. However, those that make it seem to ambitious trainees and medical students that things are hopeless and getting worse do a disservice to this profession. There are good and great jobs out there - the one commonality I've seen with people that get them is that these people love their jobs and the profession of pathology - BEFORE they get the great job.

That's good to know. It sounds like you wound up in a good spot. Of course there are still a lot of great jobs out there. One thing that sounds good about your practice is that it is not controlled by one or two people. That is key, all partners are equal.

I have heard about practices where one or two older partners control all the money and where there is different levels of partnership.

I know someone who joined a practice that was owned by one guy. After she got there he sold the practice to Ameripath and pocketed all the cash. All of the "partners' got nada, even though they were "partners".
 
... Not everyone got a partnership track position like you (the fact that noone has reached partner in 30 years is an example of the exploitative nature of this field)...


I think the poster was saying that "In 30 years, there was only a single person who we didn't advance to partner," not "we haven't advanced a single person to partner." I misread his statement too at first, but I'm pretty sure he is saying that almost everyone hired initially DID make partner if they so desired.
 
That's good to know. It sounds like you wound up in a good spot. Of course there are still a lot of great jobs out there. One thing that sounds good about your practice is that it is not controlled by one or two people. That is key, all partners are equal.

I have heard about practices where one or two older partners control all the money and where there is different levels of partnership.

I know someone who joined a practice that was owned by one guy. After she got there he sold the practice to Ameripath and pocketed all the cash. All of the "partners' got nada, even though they were "partners".

WOW! It doesn't sound like the other "partners" had very good legal advice re their "partnership" contract/employment agreement.
 
That's good to know. It sounds like you wound up in a good spot. Of course there are still a lot of great jobs out there. One thing that sounds good about your practice is that it is not controlled by one or two people. That is key, all partners are equal.

I have heard about practices where one or two older partners control all the money and where there is different levels of partnership.

I know someone who joined a practice that was owned by one guy. After she got there he sold the practice to Ameripath and pocketed all the cash. All of the "partners' got nada, even though they were "partners".

I've had that exact same situtation happen. The old greedy partners didnt sell to ameripath though. It was someone else. I jumped ship and got new job before it occured. Volumes dropped significantly after the buyout and it got consolidated with two or three other labs in the area that were purchased by that entity. All the young paths went on to find new jobs.
 
I think the poster was saying that "In 30 years, there was only a single person who we didn't advance to partner," not "we haven't advanced a single person to partner." I misread his statement too at first, but I'm pretty sure he is saying that almost everyone hired initially DID make partner if they so desired.


Yes.. it was written poorly. In 30 years only one person was denied partnership.
 
I am happy, content, professionally satisfied, personally satisfied.

I am in my mid 30s, 3+ years out of my one fellowship.

I am privileged to be working for a great group where everyone is essentially an equal are there are no "tiers" of employees or partners. There are partners and all new hires are on the partnership track. Partnership is not guaranteed but the group does not hire anyone who they anticipate would not be a good partner and thus partnership has never been denied to anyone. My group also has very low turnover. My job is a mix of subspecialty and general. I have a very broad scope where I pretty much do everything, although most of it is focused in a few areas. Our group has expertise/experience in most areas. It is a busy job but not excessively so.

Medicine is a difficult area at present but every area of profession these days is difficult. There is a severe amount of "the grass is greener on the other side" syndrome on the internet, including this forum, where the benefits and highlights of other specialties or careers are highlighted while the drawbacks are minimized. Meanwhile, the opposite is being done with pathology. There is essentially no profession these days that does not feel some sort of similar pressure.

Anyone who says pathology's difficulties are limited to pathology either has no experience in the real word or has isolated themselves so much that they are in complete denial, that is a fact. Essentially all fields of medicine are full of people who yearn for "the good old days" with the possible exception of cash-based practices such as cosmetics and possibly concierge medicine. Other specialties which have exploded due to technological or societal transformations such as endoscopy or dermatology seem better, but talk to anyone in those fields and see if you don't quickly find someone who sees a "dire" future.

The trend in medicine (NOT JUST PATHOLOGY) is movement away from private, partnership type jobs to the employed position. This has benefits for the physician which include fewer administrative tasks, less stress related to growth and business, more predictability, often less call and less strenuous work. It also has drawbacks which include reduction in income and freedom of practice. Pathology is only one specialty where this is proceeding, and the changes seem far more advanced in other specialties such as cardiology, medicine, oncology, emergency, even surgery.

Non-medical fields are even worse. Try law, where the unemployment rate for non-ivy league graduates is astoundingly high, and those that do find work often find a "job" which pays far less than the minimum wage. Other careers have rapid turnover or perhaps the very real risk of being shipped 5,000+ miles at some director's whim. In medicine, there is at least RELATIVE freedom.

When I read a lot of posts on this forum I simple shudder at the lack of insight and depth people seem to have into their own lives and their own worlds. Clearly there are problems with pathology as a field right now. These problems are complex and difficult to foresee how they will change and be modified as time goes on. To say it is as simple as a matter of supply and demand and with a massive reduction in residency spots things will magically improve is incredibly ignorant and shortsighted. To say that the problems related to siphoning of pathology income by other specialties and business entities are also related to supply and demand or "weak minded" pathologists is incredibly short sighted and ignorant.

Can you find a "good" job these days in pathology. Absolutely. I had no trouble. I had essentially three job offers by september of my fellowship year and following my acceptance of a position I continued to get an occasional feeler. Clearly the market is not the same as those of other specialties, but remember that pathology is different. The field is smaller. Turnover is smaller. Practice patterns are incredibly variable. My group has hired 4 people since I started. We received a number of applicants for our advertiseed positions (two hires were not advertised). The vast majority of these applicants were unqualified simply based on a reading of the job description. If you talk to people who run GOOD groups (not exploitative ones), they will tell you it is hard to find good, qualified candidiates who they think will stick with the job. I am sure those who run exploitative groups (and there are a lot of these) may say otherwise.

How do you avoid exploitative groups? Ask around. They have reputations. People don't stay in them very long. There are massive differences between the expectations of new hires and established hires/partners.
 
I am blissfully happy, am paid well, work great hours, and have no drama at work. i get to do what i love (look at slides) all day long, then go home and swim in my pool, walk my dogs, work out in my home gym. life is grand. that is one reason i don't look at this forum too often. lots of negativity. i am a realist, but in my world the pathology situation is quite rosy.
 
I am blissfully happy, am paid well, work great hours, and have no drama at work. i get to do what i love (look at slides) all day long, then go home and swim in my pool, walk my dogs, work out in my home gym. life is grand. that is one reason i don't look at this forum too often. lots of negativity. i am a realist, but in my world the pathology situation is quite rosy.

As I asked the others, what do you think you've done differently to make your situation better than so many others on here?
 
I'm happy.

Joined a group out of fellowship where I don't plan on leaving. Partnership job. Income is >75th percentile of pathologists according to CAP data. I do most everything but have a subspecialty. I work in a great group where everyone has equal say and the same job requirements (in terms of work load and call load and all that).

The whole job market thing makes me confused. Graduating residents/fellows in our area often have some trouble finding good jobs, although they always find something that ends up being pretty good. Some of them have to travel to different states, others don't. Some have to do things they don't really like doing but so do most people in practice.

On the other hand, we have tried to hire people and goddamn it is hard to find someone appropriate. You would THINK it would be easy. We got a lot of CVs, most of them are from MSKCC fellows or are from people who are currently in practice at what appear to be really ****ty jobs. Jobs where they have no autonomy, travel every day to 3 different sites, jobs where "senior partners" work 1/3 of time and make 3x the income, things like that. I think programs are just continuing to pump out bad pathologists, many of whom can barely communicate in their own language, let alone english.

Can I just say that if they are any pathologists on here who are "senior" partners in groups where you take advantage of younger hires and cheat them out of partnership and overwork them so you can make a little more, and deny them partnership, etc. If you are here, please DIAF. And turning yourself into a philanthropist when you take your ill gotten earnings and decide what to do with them does not redeem you. DIAF. I am so glad I don't work in one of these groups. Blame the urologists all you want, the bigger problem are the exploitative baby boomer pathologists who suck everything else dry.
 
I'm happy.

Joined a group out of fellowship where I don't plan on leaving. Partnership job. Income is >75th percentile of pathologists according to CAP data. I do most everything but have a subspecialty. I work in a great group where everyone has equal say and the same job requirements (in terms of work load and call load and all that).

The whole job market thing makes me confused. Graduating residents/fellows in our area often have some trouble finding good jobs, although they always find something that ends up being pretty good. Some of them have to travel to different states, others don't. Some have to do things they don't really like doing but so do most people in practice.

On the other hand, we have tried to hire people and goddamn it is hard to find someone appropriate. You would THINK it would be easy. We got a lot of CVs, most of them are from MSKCC fellows or are from people who are currently in practice at what appear to be really ****ty jobs. Jobs where they have no autonomy, travel every day to 3 different sites, jobs where "senior partners" work 1/3 of time and make 3x the income, things like that. I think programs are just continuing to pump out bad pathologists, many of whom can barely communicate in their own language, let alone english.

Can I just say that if they are any pathologists on here who are "senior" partners in groups where you take advantage of younger hires and cheat them out of partnership and overwork them so you can make a little more, and deny them partnership, etc. If you are here, please DIAF. And turning yourself into a philanthropist when you take your ill gotten earnings and decide what to do with them does not redeem you. DIAF. I am so glad I don't work in one of these groups. Blame the urologists all you want, the bigger problem are the exploitative baby boomer pathologists who suck everything else dry.

Thank you I'll add DIAF to my urban vocabulary.
 
As I asked the others, what do you think you've done differently to make your situation better than so many others on here?

Who knows. I work hard, am reasonably personable and can communicate. I have a good training background. I worked hard in residency and attendings noticed and helped recommend me. Would definitely NOT have my job without attendings speaking up on my behalf. I also am qualified intellectually and work well in a team (in other words, I don't backstab, I help other people out, I get my own work done and don't dump it on others). Of course, part of the issue is your general attitude about life. If you are a content person, you are going to be content. IF you look for faults and problems everywhere, everything is going to suck.

My biggest advice to trainees: Work hard and don't be a douche in residency. If you're not sure if you're a douche, you probably are. Learn your own weaknesses and faults (ask around) and try to change them. Don't think you are superior.

You would be absolutely AMAZED at how many trainees and practicing pathologists are bad at:
1) Working as a team
2) Getting their own work done in a timely fashion
3) Not dumping work on others
4) Being able to communicate with clinicians
5) Having a good concept of the clinical importance of what you are doing
6) Recognizing your own weaknesses and how to best do your job while knowing them
7) Being able to work a full load without demanding two days off every week for some event or commitment.

People who can't do 1-7 above make ****ty residents and ****ty pathologists, and it shows. They often have trouble finding jobs. And who do they blame? Everyone except themselves. Now, finding a job can be challenging. It is humbling. You probably won't find a job you want in the city you want like I did. While I worked hard and deserved my job, the timing was also lucky. If I was coming out of training now, my job would not be available. But this is life. Sometimes you have to take a job in Tulsa for 3 years before you can get your preferred job in Austin. Don't blame the world or the "academics" or the "oversupply." Just deal with it. It is reality. Don't compare yourself to dermatologists because it's irrelevant. No one really wants to hire the pity party.

Private practice is about what you can bring to the group and how you can help it grow and maintain. It is not about what the group can do for you and for your chosen lifestyle. If other factors are more important, find a job where you can indulge them. This is what everyone else does everywhere in the world. Do not delude yourself into thinking this is in anyway limited to pathology.
 
this is a silly thread. Some people sitting at Home Depot are "content" with their life, that doesnt mean all young people should aspire to sit outside Home Depot looking for day work...

A better ? would be, how many people in Pathology would now recommend youngsters to jump into the field...I bet even Mike S. would give pause to that considering he knows his circumstances are likely never to be repeated (at least not in the next century?).
 
A better ? would be, how many people in Pathology would now recommend youngsters to jump into the field...I bet even Mike S. would give pause to that considering he knows his circumstances are likely never to be repeated (at least not in the next century?).

Fair point, but what profession exists now that one would recommend a kid go into? Every profession is seemingly declining except that of politician, internet hacker, pro athlete, and maybe anything to do with cosmetics. These are all insanely competitive.

You can do professions that essentially guarantee you a job, but since the unemployment rate among pathologists is approximately 0-1%, pathology would fit in there too to most people.

Even within medicine private practice is declining, the trend is for everyone to be working for hospitals or large physician organizations.
 
Fair point, but what profession exists now that one would recommend a kid go into? Every profession is seemingly declining except that of politician, internet hacker, pro athlete, and maybe anything to do with cosmetics. These are all insanely competitive.

You can do professions that essentially guarantee you a job, but since the unemployment rate among pathologists is approximately 0-1%, pathology would fit in there too to most people.

Even within medicine private practice is declining, the trend is for everyone to be working for hospitals or large physician organizations.

I would recommend subspecialty surgeon. They are the straws that stir the drink. Like i said a cousin's friend was offered to be employed by the hospial for less than half of what she made in private practice.

Try employing a busy ent or orthopod or gyn onc for less than half of what they make in private practice. They would just tell you to go f yourself and take their work to the hospital down the street.
 
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I have a friend who worked 80 hours a week as a urologist in another country for the government. He made $1 an hour when he was on call. Thank god he is out of that job and is in a private hospital now. If you thought you had it bad....think again.
 
I would recommend subspecialty surgeon. They are the straws that stir the drink. Like i said a cousin's friend was offered to be employed by the hospial for less than half of what she made in private practice.

Try employing a busy ent or orthopod or gyn onc for less than half of what they make in private practice. They would just tell you to go f yourself and take their work to the hospital down the street.

+1. I know a surg. Spec who is private that got paid nearly 7 figures signing bonus by a hospital!!!! A path employeed by a hospital will make that in year 5 despite possibly billing for more!!!!! 1word: Over Sup Ply
 
I have a friend who worked 80 hours a week as a urologist in another country for the government. He made $1 an hour when he was on call. Thank god he is out of that job and is in a private hospital now. If you thought you had it bad....think again.

That's a dollar more an hour than I make on call!

What's the country? Haiti, Mali, west Papua new guinea, Mongolia?
 
+1. I know a surg. Spec who is private that got paid nearly 7 figures signing bonus by a hospital!!!! A path employeed by a hospital will make that in year 5 despite possibly billing for more!!!!! 1word: Over Sup Ply

The trade-off is frequent call and and heavy hours every week. They make good money, no doubt. They also have trouble finding time to spend it or, more importantly, finding time to spend with their families.

Trade offs to everything, folks. You can name your city and price being a surgeon, but have fun having a decent stress level and managing your personal life...

Bring on the anecdotes!
 
Pathologists make a decent living. Some work 5 hours a day. Most are out by 5 pm, some by 4 pm. Not bad at all. Residents and fellows surf the SDN all day like myself.
 
this is a silly thread. Some people sitting at Home Depot are "content" with their life, that doesnt mean all young people should aspire to sit outside Home Depot looking for day work...

A better ? would be, how many people in Pathology would now recommend youngsters to jump into the field...I bet even Mike S. would give pause to that considering he knows his circumstances are likely never to be repeated (at least not in the next century?).

Exactly.

I teach medical students in basic pathology, mentor medical students in their surgical path rotations, and try very hard to instill in them a respect for pathology. Pathology is noble and satisfying work. But when students ask about going into the field, I do not recommend it. What was the last straw? In-office labs, probably. It is true that all of medicine is under siege and not just pathology and all the rest of it, but, I'm sorry, there are better fields out there. Better prospects, better leadership.
 
this is a silly thread. Some people sitting at Home Depot are "content" with their life, that doesnt mean all young people should aspire to sit outside Home Depot looking for day work...

A better ? would be, how many people in Pathology would now recommend youngsters to jump into the field...I bet even Mike S. would give pause to that considering he knows his circumstances are likely never to be repeated (at least not in the next century?).

You're entitled to think it's silly, but it's serving a purpose, that not every diagnostic pathologist that participates on this list thinks their job sucks. Your question is a separate one, also worth asking of course. We see so much negativity on this forum. Fortunately, most path residents in the US probably do not participate.
 
this is a silly thread. Some people sitting at Home Depot are "content" with their life, that doesnt mean all young people should aspire to sit outside Home Depot looking for day work...

A better ? would be, how many people in Pathology would now recommend youngsters to jump into the field...I bet even Mike S. would give pause to that considering he knows his circumstances are likely never to be repeated (at least not in the next century?).
you are correct. i have been a product of good timing, luck and hard work but i successfully discouraged my son, who had the academic credentials to get into med school, to persue other interests. he is a now a lawyer practicing in D.C. and is one of the national legal authorities in political campaign finance law--a nice little niche.
 
Yeah, as yaah said, the internet is generally where people go to semi-anonymously bi%ch and complain about stuff. The happy pathologists are going to work, doing their job, then going home to their families and are not participating on this forum. I'm on here because it helps me remain vaguely connected to the world of diagnostic path, and because I find such discussions interesting. But it's very disheartening reading all the negatively felt by those on here about the situation out there for community/private practice pathology.
 
Where are any pathology/lab medicine related message boards that are positive?

http://pathologyblawg.com/

http://boards.medscape.com/.29fbe864/

http://www.mailman.srv.ualberta.ca/pipermail/patho-l/

Also look at the ASC listserv if you are a member. Heck, even look at Linkedin. There are virtually no pathology boards that are positive. And we all know there is good reason for that.

Having read all three of these message boards I would characterize them as discussing issues in pathology that deserve attention, rather than negative. I follow one of these, the medscape blog, and it specifically covers several pathology related issues such as proficiency testing, molecular testing and the important role of pathologists in patient management.

Medical students considering a career in pathology are encouraged to read these blogs or message boards and see how pathologists make contributions to healthcare.
 
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