Any Fellowships (besides pain) in Anes financially lucrative?

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invitro

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Okay, we all know that pain makes da beeg buckaroos, but from a PURELY FINANCIAL point of view, does it make sense to do any of the other fellowships?

In particular,

1. Cardiac?

2. Peds?

3. Critical Care?

4. Neuro/Obstetric/Ambulatory(yes that is a fellowship at some programs)?

From talking to one of the CA-2s at my home program, he seems to think from a PURELY FINANCIAL point of view, fellowships in general are not worth it, unless you want to go into academics (but academics usually pays 50-60% of private practive). I thought this was interesting, and was wondering what others felt about that assessment.

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Define "lucrative". Most would say that making $250-300K fresh out of residency is pretty lucrative for a General Anesthesiologist. I think you should follow what you're interested in. If you're good, the money will come.

Having said that, years ago I knew a guy who was married to a Cardiac Anesthesia specialist, and she pretty much covered only cardiac cases. He told me that every few months they had to go open a new bank account because they wanted to make sure that they could maintain the $100,000 FDIC insurance on their deposits. He claimed that she made about $650-700K/year, and this was in about 1996-1997. :eek: She literally was making cash-money far faster than they could spend it. (I can't even imagine what it must've been like to be their accountant; as a PhD-level researcher he was making about $120K/year himself.) She worked primarily at University of Maryland in Baltimore, but also occassionally covered cases at Hopkins.

-Skip
 
I thought cardiac wasn't compensated as well as general simply because you spend more time on fewer cases. In the time that it takes to do two cardiac cases, you could do 4-8 general cases, which, although they pay less individually, would still lead to a higher gross for the day.

In any event, I'm a little doubtful of the need for cardiac anesthesiologists in the future, given what interventional cardiology is taking from CTS. It might be hard to get a good job in the field one day.

With pediatrics, I've heard you do less well because kids are not as well insured as adults.


Skip Intro said:
Define "lucrative". Most would say that making $250-300K fresh out of residency is pretty lucrative for a General Anesthesiologist. I think you should follow what you're interested in. If you're good, the money will come.

Having said that, years ago I knew a guy who was married to a Cardiac Anesthesia specialist, and she pretty much covered only cardiac cases. He told me that every few months they had to go open a new bank account because they wanted to make sure that they could maintain the $100,000 FDIC insurance on their deposits. He claimed that she made about $650-700K/year, and this was in about 1996-1997. :eek: She literally was making cash-money far faster than they could spend it. (I can't even imagine what it must've been like to be their accountant; as a PhD-level researcher he was making about $120K/year himself.) She worked primarily at University of Maryland in Baltimore, but also occassionally covered cases at Hopkins.

-Skip
 
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powermd said:
I thought cardiac wasn't compensated as well as general simply because you spend more time on fewer cases.

You bill for more... TEE, Swan-Ganz placement/monitoring, central lines, etc. Of course, this was '96-97. Reimbursement structures may have changed since then and perhaps you can no longer individually bill for each thing you do.

-Skip
 
Skip Intro said:
You bill for more... TEE, Swan-Ganz placement/monitoring, central lines, etc. Of course, this was '96-97. Reimbursement structures may have changed since then and perhaps you can no longer individually bill for each thing you do.

-Skip

Money in anesthesia is more dependent on where you live and what patients you take care of (age, % of private insurance vs medicare/medicaid, etc) THAN ANYTHING ELSE. SO, if you are a cardiac anesthesiologist (fellowship trained) and you find a practice that does alot of less-than-65-year-olds, you're golden. But those institutions are rare, since 90% of CABG patients are 65 or older, at least in my experience.
Doing everything on a CABG (A line, SWAN, etc) gives you about 800 bucks, whether the case lasts 2 hours or 12 hours, so alot depends on how fast your surgeon is. You can do three twenty minute tonsillectomies on your neighbor's four year old triplets and make about the same amount of money.
My opinion is not to do any fellowship unless you are keenly interested in whatever you are fellowshipping in, and you oilfield-heir father can pay you the 300K you would've made working instead of fellowshipping.
Something alot of you are unaware of is that hospitals HAVE to have anesthesia, right? Cuz the OR is typically a money-maker. Many, many groups are augmented financially by the hospital if their payer mix does not generate enough money to keep desirable anesthesiologists around. Example: Need an anesthesiologist to do hearts for a new heart hospital? You're gonna have to guarantee him/her about 400-450k to find one, at least in the southeast. So the hospital will cough up the difference, i.e. (anesthesiologist's guarantee) - (amount billed). Yes, they are losing money on the anesthesia side, but no worries, since they are rolling in profits from the cath lab, ICU stay, etc. They wisely see the big picture: "Hmmmm, we can make money with a heart program... we'll make a ton of money in the cat lab, but we'll lose a little money in the OR."
BOTTOM LINE: Fellowship is not the determining factor (usually) on how much money you make. It is your location in the USA and what your patients use to pay you with (medicare=bad reembursement; workmans comp=good; Aetna/Blue Cross/other insurance companies=good, for the most part.)
This concept should be put in the anesthesia FAQs as it is asked over and over again.
SEE, residencies could do a much better job preparing residents for the real world. You go into practice knowing NOTHING about what comprises a practice, which can make you a sitting duck if you unknowingly associate with shady partners.
One could learn Anesthesia Business One-Oh-One with morning conferences scattered throughout residency, so at least emerging residents have a clue as to what they are getting into. ANy residency directors out there? Our residencies completely ignore this very important fact of life of the real world.
 
WHen I referred to the 800 bucks for a CABG above, that is for MEDICARE. Private insurance pays much more, like 2500 or something close. But since insurance paying hearts are few and far between, you can see the problem with doing hearts only, unless the hospital is guaranteeing you a salary.
Ultimate scenerio if you wanna do hearts only? An institution with ALOT of less-than-65-year-olds, and a Denton Cooley heart surgeon clone, and an efficient heart team, so cases are 2.5 to 3 hours skin-to-skin, and turnover time is about 45 minutes. Then you can do 2 or 3 a day. Yes, these practices exist, but are few and far between. You'll work your tail off, but you'll make more than the NFL minimum.
jetproppilot said:
Money in anesthesia is more dependent on where you live and what patients you take care of (age, % of private insurance vs medicare/medicaid, etc) THAN ANYTHING ELSE. SO, if you are a cardiac anesthesiologist (fellowship trained) and you find a practice that does alot of less-than-65-year-olds, you're golden. But those institutions are rare, since 90% of CABG patients are 65 or older, at least in my experience.
Doing everything on a CABG (A line, SWAN, etc) gives you about 800 bucks, whether the case lasts 2 hours or 12 hours, so alot depends on how fast your surgeon is. You can do three twenty minute tonsillectomies on your neighbor's four year old triplets and make about the same amount of money.
My opinion is not to do any fellowship unless you are keenly interested in whatever you are fellowshipping in, and you oilfield-heir father can pay you the 300K you would've made working instead of fellowshipping.
Something alot of you are unaware of is that hospitals HAVE to have anesthesia, right? Cuz the OR is typically a money-maker. Many, many groups are augmented financially by the hospital if their payer mix does not generate enough money to keep desirable anesthesiologists around. Example: Need an anesthesiologist to do hearts for a new heart hospital? You're gonna have to guarantee him/her about 400-450k to find one, at least in the southeast. So the hospital will cough up the difference, i.e. (anesthesiologist's guarantee) - (amount billed). Yes, they are losing money on the anesthesia side, but no worries, since they are rolling in profits from the cath lab, ICU stay, etc. They wisely see the big picture: "Hmmmm, we can make money with a heart program... we'll make a ton of money in the cat lab, but we'll lose a little money in the OR."
BOTTOM LINE: Fellowship is not the determining factor (usually) on how much money you make. It is your location in the USA and what your patients use to pay you with (medicare=bad reembursement; workmans comp=good; Aetna/Blue Cross/other insurance companies=good, for the most part.)
This concept should be put in the anesthesia FAQs as it is asked over and over again.
SEE, residencies could do a much better job preparing residents for the real world. You go into practice knowing NOTHING about what comprises a practice, which can make you a sitting duck if you unknowingly associate with shady partners.
One could learn Anesthesia Business One-Oh-One with morning conferences scattered throughout residency, so at least emerging residents have a clue as to what they are getting into. ANy residency directors out there? Our residencies completely ignore this very important fact of life of the real world.
 
jetproppilot said:
WHen I referred to the 800 bucks for a CABG above, that is for MEDICARE. Private insurance pays much more, like 2500 or something close. But since insurance paying hearts are few and far between, you can see the problem with doing hearts only, unless the hospital is guaranteeing you a salary.
Ultimate scenerio if you wanna do hearts only? An institution with ALOT of less-than-65-year-olds, and a Denton Cooley heart surgeon clone, and an efficient heart team, so cases are 2.5 to 3 hours skin-to-skin, and turnover time is about 45 minutes. Then you can do 2 or 3 a day. Yes, these practices exist, but are few and far between. You'll work your tail off, but you'll make more than the NFL minimum.

Thanks for the input. I was just wondering because in many specialities doing a fellowship makes you more desirable/marketable. It looks like in terms of anesthesia, that is simply not true (with the exception of pain).

A side note, completely unrelated to the thread....just saw two movies on DVD, I, robot, and Simply Irresistable. I, Robot was actually pretty good, and loosely based on the Asimov book. Simply Irresistable really sucked major ass...and I don't mind romance movies. Just had to vent a little about wasting 2 hrs watching that god-awful movie.
 
invitro said:
A side note, completely unrelated to the thread....just saw two movies on DVD, I, robot, and Simply Irresistable. I, Robot was actually pretty good, and loosely based on the Asimov book. Simply Irresistable really sucked major ass...and I don't mind romance movies. Just had to vent a little about wasting 2 hrs watching that god-awful movie.
:laugh:
Bourne Supremacy was great....but you need to have seen Bourne Identity first, both :thumbup: :thumbup: ;)
 
jetproppilot said:
One could learn Anesthesia Business One-Oh-One with morning conferences scattered throughout residency, so at least emerging residents have a clue as to what they are getting into. ANy residency directors out there? Our residencies completely ignore this very important fact of life of the real world.

Good advice. I'll mention it when I start my CA-1 next year. Thanks.

-Skip
 
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