any guarantee for matching into EM or anesthesia?

[yowhatup]

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if one is an MD american med grad, does that almost guarantee that the MD american med grad will match in somewhere (maybe the worst place in america, but still it is an anesthesia program) for anesthesia..... and what about EM.... how common is that American Med grads don't get anesthesia or EM anywhere in the country?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Sorry but there are NO guarantees in any specialty. Every year several AMGs don't match.

 

[yowhatup]

Sorry but there are NO guarantees in any specialty. Every year several AMGs don't match.

really... wow.... I thought that unless it is derm, radiology, ortho, optho, plastics, or rad onc amg's often have a choice of what they want to do since they will probably match in somewhere for the remaining specialties... those AMG's who dont match into EM or anesthesia... why is that? Hypothetical situation: with a USMLE step 1 of 200, being an AMG will I get anesthesia or EM somewhere in this country or do the chances look slim despite the fact that I am an AMG and I am applying to the WORST programs in those two fields in the country. I have seen these programs are often times taking FMG's so surely I think if I apply to these programs I will get a spot, despite my Step 1 being low, because I am an AMG.... I heard that programs like these actively recruit AMG's since FMG's brings down the reputation of these programs

 

[docdaname]

really... wow.... I thought that unless it is derm, radiology, ortho, optho, plastics, or rad onc amg's often have a choice of what they want to do since they will probably match in somewhere for the remaining specialties... those AMG's who dont match into EM or anesthesia... why is that? Hypothetical situation: with a USMLE step 1 of 200, being an AMG will I get anesthesia or EM somewhere in this country or do the chances look slim despite the fact that I am an AMG and I am applying to the WORST programs in those two fields in the country. I have seen these programs are often times taking FMG's so surely I think if I apply to these programs I will get a spot, despite my Step 1 being low, because I am an AMG.... I heard that programs like these actively recruit AMG's since FMG's brings down the reputation of these programs

see above: there are no garuntees. Some programs care about their rep, others just want the best candidates. I know two people from my school, (granted i dont know what their exact scores are) but seemed like a good candidate, had about 10 interviews at quality places, and did not match. Both were able to scramble into a spot though.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Being an AMG does not trump everthying else. Some programs, even the "worst" ones, would rather have an FMG with good scores than an AMG with below average ones.

I know this goes against the conventional wisdom that AMGs are fed but its a fact. You cannot assume that the simple fact of being an AMG means that programs will prefer you.

Since you have a big red flag on your application (the USMLE score), you need to work harder to get great LORs, make contacts, do auditions etc. EM and Anesth are not easy matches at any program.

No one knows if you'll match but please do not continue with the bad assumptions you have. People fail to match every year in every specialty, even AMGs.

 

[McGillGrad]

If you score a 200 on the step, you will be lucky to match into a decent non-competitive speciality (such as IM or Peds).

 

[EternalMD]

not necessarily. I know 2 people who matched anesthesia with <200 (but 1st time pass) AMG who matched at mid-tier programs - one in the north east and the other in mid-west

 

[McGillGrad]

not necessarily. I know 2 people who matched anesthesia with <200 (but 1st time pass) AMG who matched at mid-tier programs - one in the north east and the other in mid-west

And I know someone with a 217 who matched into Derm. I guess we can all match into derm with a 217, right?

 

[Pinkertinkle]

why dont you just do well in med school instead of preparing to be a bottom trawler

 

[AmoryBlaine]

I don't have any data to back this up but I think failing to match in EM is usually more indicative of interpersonal issues than application problems.

There are a ton of programs out there including decent sized programs in uncool cities and towns.

 

[psychforme]

I think a ****ty AMG would bring the reputation down more than an excellent FMG.

 

[yowhatup]

I think a ****ty AMG would bring the reputation down more than an excellent FMG.

I dont agree. In the world we live in, it is all about how to make that website for a program better. A lot of programs show on their websites who the residents are and from which medical school they graduated from. If a program is filled with DO, FMG, or US-IMG, than the program does not look good on paper as compared to a program which ONLY takes US AMG (not even DO's).

And so, programs which are filled with FMG, DO, or US-IMG are actively recruiting for US AMG to improve the website, and will sometimes bend over backwards to take US AMG's even if they have substantially lower scores than DO, FMG, or US-IMG.

Finally, looking at NRMP, I feel like it is almost a virtual guarantee that if one is a US AMG, an AMG will match somewhere into either EM or Anesthesia... the same of course cannot be said for the uber competitive specialities like Derm, Rad, Ortho, Rad Onc, Plastics, ENT, Optho, Uro, Nuc Med.

Also the virtual guarantee that I believe US AMG get for EM or anesthesia, DO, US-IMG, or FMG's definetly don't get and EM and anesthesia is very competitive for them.

 

[psychforme]

I dont agree. In the world we live in, it is all about how to make that website for a program better. A lot of programs show on their websites who the residents are and from which medical school they graduated from. If a program is filled with DO, FMG, or US-IMG, than the program does not look good on paper as compared to a program which ONLY takes US AMG (not even DO's).

I really don't understand why it would be in a program's interest to look better to attract worse applicants.

 

[yowhatup]

I really don't understand why it would be in a program's interest to look better to attract worse applicants.

on the website for these programs, one cannot tell whether these applicants are good or not.... but what can be told is that if the program is filled with AMG's, the residents of the program are assumed to be competitive because of the difficulty of gaining admission to a US MD school.

A program filled with DO's, US-IMG, and FMG just does not look that competitive

 

[McGillGrad]

You can do anything you want but you must be qualified to do it. So you have a very low Step 1. Ok, no big deal. STUDY AND GET a 250/99 Step 2 and you will get your residency as an AMG with English as a second language. It's up to you.

But trust me that I will snatch your spot all day long if you have a 200 and I have my 243. It doesn't matter if you are an AMG and I am a Carib student. I will own you all day long on the interview trail, all else being equal.

 

[beriberi]

I went to a top 5 med school and went unmatched in EM.... I highly doubt it was a personality issue (though, I guess no one thinks it is their personality, right?). I blew off Step 1 (I was young and dumb and didn't understand the consequences.) I got a 188. I really believed that any program would love me, love my brilliant LORs, extracurricular activities and above all, love love lovemy AMG MD TOP 5 school (sorry -- you said AMG MD so many times, I had to use it too.) I was fortunate to scramble into a good slot.

So, yeah, it happens. Maybe if I would have applied broader, maybe if I would have asked my director to make some calls for me, maybe if I had done an audition rotation, etc.

(P.S. word to wise: board scores DON'T matter that much -- unless you are 2 standard deviations below the norm, and then they are the only thing that matters.)

 

[Bitsy]

on the website for these programs, one cannot tell whether these applicants are good or not.... but what can be told is that if the program is filled with AMG's, the residents of the program are assumed to be competitive because of the difficulty of gaining admission to a US MD school.

A program filled with DO's, US-IMG, and FMG just does not look that competitive

I disagree. I think programs are more concerned with grabbing applicants that will be a good fit with the program and will make good residents versus how good their website looks. These future residents will actually be treating patients, not just serving as advertisement boards after all. If you look at NRMP charting outcomes in the match, some of the most important factors are clinical evaluations in your core rotations, clinical evaluations in your speciality, and boards scores. You have to be a strong applicant all around to compete for match spots these days, especially something moderately competitive like EM or anesthesia. If you walk into the match thinking your AMG status is going to guarantee you a spot without something to back it up (great clinical evals, strong board scores, strong LORs), I think you're going to be disappointed.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I dont agree. In the world we live in, it is all about how to make that website for a program better. A lot of programs show on their websites who the residents are and from which medical school they graduated from. If a program is filled with DO, FMG, or US-IMG, than the program does not look good on paper as compared to a program which ONLY takes US AMG (not even DO's).

And so, programs which are filled with FMG, DO, or US-IMG are actively recruiting for US AMG to improve the website, and will sometimes bend over backwards to take US AMG's even if they have substantially lower scores than DO, FMG, or US-IMG.

Finally, looking at NRMP, I feel like it is almost a virtual guarantee that if one is a US AMG, an AMG will match somewhere into either EM or Anesthesia... the same of course cannot be said for the uber competitive specialities like Derm, Rad, Ortho, Rad Onc, Plastics, ENT, Optho, Uro, Nuc Med.

Also the virtual guarantee that I believe US AMG get for EM or anesthesia, DO, US-IMG, or FMG's definetly don't get and EM and anesthesia is very competitive for them.

Why did you post here asking what we thought when its obvious you have made up your mind that its a "virtual guarantee" that you will match somewhere into EM or Anesthesia.

The facts do NOT support that assertion, but its a free country and you may believe what you wish. The match is getting more and more competitive and while AMGs are usually preferred over FMGs, that is not always the case.

 

[EternalMD]

And I know someone with a 217 who matched into Derm. I guess we can all match into derm with a 217, right?

Looking at charting outcomes in the match from 2007, of those applying with sub-200 scores, 15% (4 of 27) matched into dermatology compared to a whopping 79% (163 of 206) matching into anesthesiology. Even if you increase the cutoff for dermatology to 230, only 46% matched (58 of 125) which still doesn't reach the numbers for anesthesiology suggesting the obvious - DERM IS MORE COMPETITIVE

So don't compare apples and oranges because your anecdotal evidence is much more an exception to the rule, especially since it applies to dermatology

 

[OTD]

You can do anything you want but you must be qualified to do it. So you have a very low Step 1. Ok, no big deal. STUDY AND GET a 250/99 Step 2 and you will get your residency as an AMG with English as a second language. It's up to you.

But trust me that I will snatch your spot all day long if you have a 200 and I have my 243. It doesn't matter if you are an AMG and I am a Carib student. I will own you all day long on the interview trail, all else being equal.

I don't agree with this statement at all because programs view board scores from FMG's with a grain of salt due to the fact that FMG's have substantially more time to study for the test etc etc. In some program directors minds 250 FMG may = 200 AMG so that 243 for you may look worse than the OP's 200.

That said, plenty of AMG's go unmatched every year due to the attitude above. Sure AMG's have an edge (rightfully so IMO but that's beside the point), but no program OWES you anything. Take it for granted and you will be sitting unmatched and scrambling like others before you.

You can't be proud in the Match, work your *** off and improve your step II score, bust it on the interview trail and apply broadly. Don't take the chance. IMO most of the time when someone doesn't match it's because they have overestimated their competitiveness, whether that be AMG/high board scores/ great letters. They fail to think they may not be as good as they think they are and end up scrambling when they could have had a solid match if they had applied broadly enough.

Don't let that be you.

 

[McGillGrad]

Are you seriously trying to justify your ludicrous statement with spurious relativism?

The point is that rare anecdotal stories are ridiculously out-of-place in this thread. How is that difficult to comprehend?

Looking at charting outcomes in the match from 2007, of those applying with sub-200 scores, 15% (4 of 27) matched into dermatology compared to a whopping 79% (163 of 206) matching into anesthesiology. Even if you increase the cutoff for dermatology to 230, only 46% matched (58 of 125) which still doesn't reach the numbers for anesthesiology suggesting the obvious - DERM IS MORE COMPETITIVE

So don't compare apples and oranges because your anecdotal evidence is much more an exception to the rule, especially since it applies to dermatology

 

[McGillGrad]

I don't agree with this statement at all because programs view board scores from FMG's with a grain of salt due to the fact that FMG's have substantially more time to study for the test etc etc. In some program directors minds 250 FMG may = 200 AMG so that 243 for you may look worse than the OP's 200.

In order to disagree with a statement, you need to actually know what you are talking about.

Not only does your comment smack of envious spite (by actually claiming that anyone who scores better than you on a standardized exam is somehow "cheating" the system), you also have no idea that we only have 4-8 weeks to take the step at my university...which means my 243 is equal to an AMG 243.

You people who cling on to your AMG status as your most impressive character-trait are so sad. I feel bad for you.

 

[EternalMD]

Are you seriously trying to justify your ludicrous statement with spurious relativism?

The point is that rare anecdotal stories are ridiculously out-of-place in this thread. How is that difficult to comprehend?

are you so delusional that you can be staring at statistics in the face and believe in your silly statement ?? How exactly does a 79% match rate number seem RARE to you? Furthermore, of the ~1300 anesthesiology positions out there, about 11-12% were filled by candidates with sub-200 scores. You may want to go back to basic sciences and understand the definition of RARE because 11-12% is anything but

I hope your delusions don't extend out to the interview trail because you won't "own" anyone with the mindset you have that your score will land you a top-tier residency being an FMG (feel free to search SDN for anecdotal evidence by thousands of its members attesting to this fact). It's something that many understand while a few reject - interestingly enough, the latter being the ones most disappointed come match day.

 

[EternalMD]

In order to disagree with a statement, you need to actually know what you are talking about.

Funny because you haven't even gone through the interview process to know what YOU'RE talking about and yet you are offering opinions in a matter of fact way... 🙄🙄

you also have no idea that we only have 4-8 weeks to take the step at my university...which means my 243 is equal to an AMG 243.

lol you really think that programs will care that you got 4-8 weeks ??? so naive. Your 243 = 243 (TRUE) but your FMG 243 does NOT equal AMG 243. If you really believe that to be the case, please by all means go for urology or derm or something highly competitive and get ready to get a slew of rejection emails after your submit and for even further disappointment come match day. It's people like you that I don't feel sorry for when they fail because of the delusional world they live in. You may have the "im an FMG but I'm better than AMG" mentality for reasons that I can guess but you will find out that in the real world (when it comes to landing a residency), it isn't true by a longshot

 

[McGillGrad]

Not only am I an FMG, I'm also Canadian! That automatically makes me better than you. Just kidding, but not really...lol

You can tell yourself anything you like to soothe your bruised ego, but you are truly delusional to believe an AMG with a 200 is going to have an easier time matching than me. Then again, any AMG with anything close to my stats (i.e. 225+) will most often get the spot over me. I never argued against that. That was the work of your own mental hobgoblins.

The fact remains that the stereotypical older, foreign and accented FMG is at a huge disadvantage. On the other hand, the Canadian FMG with high stats, 3 languages and a 3.6 GPA and 31R MCAT from McGill university is going to always give you a run for your money. ...oh, and I make a mean Foie Gras Poutine, too!

Funny because you haven't even gone through the interview process to know what YOU'RE talking about and yet you are offering opinions in a matter of fact way... 🙄🙄

lol you really think that programs will care that you got 4-8 weeks ??? so naive. Your 243 = 243 (TRUE) but your FMG 243 does NOT equal AMG 243. If you really believe that to be the case, please by all means go for urology or derm or something highly competitive and get ready to get a slew of rejection emails after your submit and for even further disappointment come match day. It's people like you that I don't feel sorry for when they fail because of the delusional world they live in. You may have the "im an FMG but I'm better than AMG" mentality for reasons that I can guess but you will find out that in the real world (when it comes to landing a residency), it isn't true by a longshot

 

[EternalMD]

Not only am I an FMG, I'm also Canadian! That automatically makes me better than you. Just kidding, but not really...lol

You can tell yourself anything you like to soothe your bruised ego, but you are truly delusional to believe an AMG with a 200 is going to have an easier time matching than me. Then again, any AMG with anything close to my stats (i.e. 225+) will most often get the spot over me. I never argued against that. That was the work of your own mental hobgoblins.

The fact remains that the stereotypical older, foreign and accented FMG is at a huge disadvantage. On the other hand, the Canadian FMG with high stats, 3 languages and a 3.6 GPA and 31R MCAT from McGill university is going to always give you a run for your money. ...oh, and I make a mean Foie Gras Poutine, too!

undergraduate GPA and MCATs don't mean much but I will agree - You have a clear advantage over the 3 strike FMG --> 1) old 2) foreign 3) accent

but I said an average step 1 score of 222 would match yours (doesn't have to be 225 and greater). Also, while an AMG 200 isn't great, I don't think it is as much of a disadvantage as u may perceive

 

[McGillGrad]

Fair enough...

undergraduate GPA and MCATs don't mean much but I will agree - You have a clear advantage over the 3 strike FMG --> 1) old 2) foreign 3) accent

but I said an average step 1 score of 222 would match yours (doesn't have to be 225 and greater). Also, while an AMG 200 isn't great, I don't think it is as much of a disadvantage as u may perceive

 

[yowhatup]

Not only am I an FMG, I'm also Canadian! That automatically makes me better than you. Just kidding, but not really...lol

You can tell yourself anything you like to soothe your bruised ego, but you are truly delusional to believe an AMG with a 200 is going to have an easier time matching than me. Then again, any AMG with anything close to my stats (i.e. 225+) will most often get the spot over me. I never argued against that. That was the work of your own mental hobgoblins.

The fact remains that the stereotypical older, foreign and accented FMG is at a huge disadvantage. On the other hand, the Canadian FMG with high stats, 3 languages and a 3.6 GPA and 31R MCAT from McGill university is going to always give you a run for your money. ...oh, and I make a mean Foie Gras Poutine, too!

There is no doubt that AMG's or Canadian LCME grads get much much much much much more preference than FMG's or DO's, based simply on NRMP charting outcomes. It really does matter what program websites say, and if a program is filled with FMG's or DO's (regardless of how good they are), to the common prospective resident applicant, it does not look like a very impressive program, and this alone is what gives AMG much more preference to PD's.

I'm not going to comment whether it is fair or not, but AMG's get a far greater preference... but my question was whether it is a virtual guarantee... based on NRMP, the chances hypothetically look pretty good for me, and that is why I asked on this forum whether AMG's have a virtual guarantee in most specialties.. excluding of course derm, rad, rad onc, plastics, urology, ortho, and nuc med

 

[Bitsy]

As stated above, nothing in the match is a guarantee, nothing in the match is a virtual guarantee. There were plenty of applicants this past year that thought they were "guaranteed" to match in xyz that didn't. I don't get why you keep asking this question when it is very clear that you think you have clinched a position in anesthesia or ER simply because you are an AMG. It is also clear that you think you are superior to any IMG or DO (I'm a DO student). I think you are going to be your own worst enemy if you come off this arrogant in your interviews. My advice is to work as hard as you can and get into the best residency program for you. Don't waste all of your time estimating how much of a guarantee it is that you will match. Evaluate your competitiveness (but don't obsess over it) and apply broadly.

 

[tripleJ]

There is no doubt that AMG's or Canadian LCME grads get much much much much much more preference than FMG's or DO's, based simply on NRMP charting outcomes. It really does matter what program websites say, and if a program is filled with FMG's or DO's (regardless of how good they are), to the common prospective resident applicant, it does not look like a very impressive program, and this alone is what gives AMG much more preference to PD's.

I'm not going to comment whether it is fair or not, but AMG's get a far greater preference... but my question was whether it is a virtual guarantee... based on NRMP, the chances hypothetically look pretty good for me, and that is why I asked on this forum whether AMG's have a virtual guarantee in most specialties.. excluding of course derm, rad, rad onc, plastics, urology, ortho, and nuc med

I'm not sure why, but in reading your posts I keep picturing the applicant who shows up for the interview polished and ready to impress but acts like an arrogant tool to the ancillary staff in the PDs office, thus sealing your fate.

 

[mcl]

I'm not sure why, but in reading your posts I keep picturing the applicant who shows up for the interview polished and ready to impress but acts like an arrogant tool to the ancillary staff in the PDs office, thus sealing your fate.

Exactly. To everyone preparing for interviews, remember that anyone at an institution can be asked to give feedback regarding their impression of you. Treat every single person you meet from the cleaning staff to the Chair in a professional, friendly manner. Be pleasant to the program coordinator prior to your interview both in your emails and especially during phone calls. It sounds obvious and easy, but it isn't when you are feeling nervous and/or tired.

 

[Neuronix]

Treat every single person you meet from the cleaning staff to the Chair in a professional, friendly manner.

Shouldn't we just do this always?

 

[mcl]

Shouldn't we just do this always?

Of course. But you'd be surprised how many applicants neglect the nicities on the interview trail, which gets read by the program as being rude or arrogant. Sometimes it's because an applicant is shy or near catatonic from all the stress of travel and lack of sleep. With the coordinator it's often pre-interview frustration over schedules not meshing conveniently. It really is harder than it sounds to by "on" 100% of the time, even when you're a nice person under ordinary circumsances.