Any hope left for me?

[hoffen]

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Trying to stay strong. Learning to cope and come to terms with the fact that Life can never be still water, always currents on your way.

I have a 2.8 GPA overall, and about 2.95 science.
I have attempted 184 credit hours, so a big hole to dig myself out of.
I am going for MD. I have somewhat the financial support of my parents, and my schooling will be out of pocket from now on (reached 180 attempted hours rule that excludes me from all aid in my state). I am not caught up in the hype of how long, I know this is a marathon and not a sprint. I am 24 right now.

I have reformed my habits.
7 credits/2 sciences (bio I + chm I + Bio I Lab) --> 4.0 GPA
then 12 credits/ 3 sciences (Bio II + Physics II + Chem II + sociology) --> 4.0 GPA

I will take 93 more credits over the course of 3-4 years, hoping to maintain a 4.0 and graduate with a natural science 2nd bachelors degree, and overall GPA of 3.2 and slightly higher for science (3.2-3.4 range).

I will use GRE scores + GPA to do Special Masters Program. but it has no guarantee of interview, just within a medical school. So it might look favorable upon the medical school there.

Despite my failures and severe shortcomings, will 112 credits worth of 4.0 GPA at a four year university, a new natural science bachelor, and a special masters program + (excluding ECs: I am published/research, patient contact volunteer, shadowed and will continue on all of these) at least get my application reviewed, if I can score high on the new MCAT for MD Schools?

What if I have to skip a semester, prolong this process, so I can work to pay for school?
Or take less credits per semester so that I can have a job when my parents cant back me up?
Should I look to get only 3.0 gpa overall and science and then go to smp, is that wiser? or stick around and do more undergrad?

Thank you sincerely for your help. Open to all criticism, can take cutting advice.

 

[hoffen]

37 more credits --> 3.0 GPA
62 more credits --> 3.1 GPA
93 more credits --> 3.2 GPA
132 more credit --> 3.3 GPA
184 more credits --> 3.4 GPA
258 more credits --> 3.5 GPA

* all credits under assumption of 4.0 semester

Trying to find a good spot and balance when I should stop undergrad and pursue other things given the increments above. Like SMP or etc.

 

[deleted642188]

@Goro @LizzyM @gyngyn @Catalystik .....

 

[DK2014]

Trying to stay strong. Learning to cope and come to terms with the fact that Life can never be still water, always currents on your way.

I have a 2.8 GPA overall, and about 2.95 science.
I have attempted 184 credit hours, so a big hole to dig myself out of.
I am going for MD. I have somewhat the financial support of my parents, and my schooling will be out of pocket from now on (reached 180 attempted hours rule that excludes me from all aid in my state). I am not caught up in the hype of how long, I know this is a marathon and not a sprint. I am 24 right now.

I have reformed my habits.
7 credits/2 sciences (bio I + chm I + Bio I Lab) --> 4.0 GPA
then 12 credits/ 3 sciences (Bio II + Physics II + Chem II + sociology) --> 4.0 GPA

I will take 93 more credits over the course of 3-4 years, hoping to maintain a 4.0 and graduate with a natural science 2nd bachelors degree, and overall GPA of 3.2 and slightly higher for science (3.2-3.4 range).

I will use GRE scores + GPA to do Special Masters Program. but it has no guarantee of interview, just within a medical school. So it might look favorable upon the medical school there.

Despite my failures and severe shortcomings, will 112 credits worth of 4.0 GPA at a four year university, a new natural science bachelor, and a special masters program + (excluding ECs: I am published/research, patient contact volunteer, shadowed and will continue on all of these) at least get my application reviewed, if I can score high on the new MCAT for MD Schools?

What if I have to skip a semester, prolong this process, so I can work to pay for school?
Or take less credits per semester so that I can have a job when my parents cant back me up?
Should I look to get only 3.0 gpa overall and science and then go to smp, is that wiser? or stick around and do more undergrad?

Thank you sincerely for your help. Open to all criticism, can take cutting advice.

You have at least 3 more years of hard work, it is too early to tell. Come back when you've taken 85+ credits. Just my humble opinion.

 

[Pasmal]

Grade replacement (DO) would be a reallyyyyy attractive option if I were in your shoes

 

[LizzyM]

Shadow some DOs and go for grade replacement. I've been treated in the Emergency Department by DOs and didn't even know it until I saw the names on the discharge paperwork. I've had faculty colleagues at a top research med school that were DOs. It is not an unreasonable option in your circumstances.

 

[MrLogan13]

There's no way to know that you could take another 132-184 credits with a 4.0. I think you'd be better served re-taking classes for grade replacement to apply to DO programs.

 

[allantois]

You have at least 3 more years of hard work, it is too early to tell. Come back when you've taken 85+ credits. Just my humble opinion.

Gee the guy should have stopped taking classes after he hit 120 credits. Taking another 3 years is digging yourself into a deeper hole. He already has plenty of classes to retake to improve GPA.

 

[NeuResurgens]

Your chances for MD are very small with that GPA. At this point you basically have a bachelor's degree, so I'm not even sure you could swing another 3 or 4 years of undergrad work. You need to get into a grad level masters/post bacc and destroy it grade wise, but only do this if you are confident you've reformed your study habits and can succeed. Then hit at least 85th percentile on the MCAT.

Otherwise, grade replacement and DO.

 

[Goro]

Here's the fastest way to become a doctor:
Retake all F/D/C science coursework and apply to DO schools.

If you're boning for the MD degree, then it's going to take longer. Get into, and ace a SMP. You'll need to ace MCAT as well.

Doing the equivalent of 1-2 more degrees is outright foolish.

@Goro @LizzyM @gyngyn @Catalystik .....

 

[Catalystik]

1) Despite my failures and severe shortcomings, will 112 credits worth of 4.0 GPA at a four year university, a new natural science bachelor, and a special masters program + (excluding ECs: I am published/research, patient contact volunteer, shadowed and will continue on all of these) at least get my application reviewed, if I can score high on the new MCAT for MD Schools?

2) What if I have to skip a semester, prolong this process, so I can work to pay for school?
Or take less credits per semester so that I can have a job when my parents cant back me up?

3) Should I look to get only 3.0 gpa overall and science and then go to smp, is that wiser?

1) Yes.

2) No problem.

3) If only an MD will make you happy, this will be more efficient. Med schools won't care if you earn a second bachelors. Being a candidate for one is helpful mainly because it will give you priority access to register for classes you need.

But besides retaking prerequisites as needed, be sure to get in plenty of med-school-like upper-level Bio/Biochem to demonstrate your potential before stopping your undergrad do-it-yourself GPA resuscitation (in order to enhance your chances of earning the needed 3.7+ GPA in the SMP).

And get into an SMP that requires the MCAT, not a GRE.

And kill the MCAT on the first try.

 

[NonTrad16]

will 112 credits worth of 4.0 GPA at a four year university, a new natural science bachelor, and a special masters program + (excluding ECs: I am published/research, patient contact volunteer, shadowed and will continue on all of these) at least get my application reviewed, if I can score high on the new MCAT for MD Schools?

It seems obscene to spend the money and time required to do all of the above before getting into med school, where you will spend 7+ years building debt while isolated in medicine. The main issue I have with this is there's no clear backup -- if you spend the next 4 years and don't do well enough in your SMP... what do you do then? It simply seems like a huge gamble for the opportunity to get interviewed, chasing the 10th percentile of the admissions bracket. (Opinion of someone just above the MD 10th percentile with ~3.5 GPA, but applying to MD/DO schools because I want to be a physician, not a pre-med.)

Why are you against pursuing a DO program, where you'd have a much more realistic shot with only 1-2 years of retakes (for less money)?

I am not caught up in the hype of how long, I know this is a marathon and not a sprint. I am 24 right now.

I don't know if I support the belief this is a marathon; a marathon has a clear end that you can get to by force of will (when all energy drains from you). I do not think you are entering an endurance run, but a more of an American Ninja Warrior scenario where regardless of your intentions, hopes, ambitions, time spent training... there's a chance high you'll hit the water and not finish (generally speaking, based on general pre-med majors, # of people taking the MCAT, # applying and not getting admitted, etc). You have baggage, so I'd think carefully what risks you're willing to take before committing to a single path.

 

[Gurby]

IMHO, your GPA needs to in be the ICU ASAP. Its almost DNR but an SMP for MD or retakes for DO , else your are DOA

Picturing what the average person would make of this post out of context 😛

 

[Goro]

FBI, CIA, FDIC, KFC!

Picturing what the average person would make of this post out of context 😛

 

[Catalystik]

This is the opening to a presentation I do on the lexicon for applying to medical school

•So MS-2, a PGY-1 and DO walk into a bar. They pass a table with an RN, an RT, a PA, a PT, an NP, and a CRNA watching a DPM and DDS arguing about which is licensed to removed a foot from a mouth. As they sit down The MS-2 complains “OMG! This USMLE Step 1 is kicking me in the butt. I thought keeping a high GPA and scoring well the MCAT was tough in the VR, the PS and the BS, and that aint no BS. Then that AMCAS with the PS, the EC, and getting those LORs, especially from the OChem PhD who was an SOB. Then all those secondaries. I need some TLC. “Dude, chill,” replies the PGY-1, who was a IMG/FMG with an MD from AUC. He wanted to go to an SMP but he went DIY instead. “Wait until you get hit with other stuff from NBME like SHELF, STEP 2, CK and CS. And I had to go thru ECFMG then ERAS and the NRMP to see if I could get into any ROADES on Match Day. Just wait until your running around trying do an H&P when an OD on PCP or LSD who crashed his SUV comes into the ICU nearly DOA, Turns out he had an STD too.” “TMI!, You wimpy allopathic types always get me PO’d with your complaining,” says the DO who went to WVSOM, “FYI, I had to do all that, plus 300 hours of OMM and COMLEX. I’m BE/BC and I will take my boards ASAP but I think I’ll become a fellow; I found something good in FREIDA.”

I LOL'd, but others' MMV.

 

[hoffen]

And kill the MCAT on the first try.

Is it a terrible idea to use the GRE? I kind of think the upper level science courses offered at the smp will only help my MCAT score. And I wanted to only take the MCAT once so I didnt make a spotty record, so after the smp take the MCAT ?

Shadow some DOs and go for grade replacement. I've been treated in the Emergency Department by DOs and didn't even know it until I saw the names on the discharge paperwork. I've had faculty colleagues at a top research med school that were DOs. It is not an unreasonable option in your circumstances.

I know beggers cant be choosers, and I really am in medicine to help people. But I am not an ear, nose, throat kind of person. I have realms within medicine I really enjoy: Immunology, Cardiology or Surgery, Rheumatology. I know myself, and I feel like I wouldnt be successful in DO knowing the uphill battle to get into a residency. I have friends in DO, and my gears are wired to tackle the problem a little differently than I have seen them taught. Its just a personal preference. But I value your opinion to a high regard, and it might come to it that my personal preference will mean next to nothing considering the situation I am in. I think applying to DO like you said, is something I inevitably will have to do when I also apply to MD down the road.

If you're boning for the MD degree, then it's going to take longer. Get into, and ace a SMP. You'll need to ace MCAT as well.

Doing the equivalent of 1-2 more degrees is outright foolish.

I am 89% done with my second bachelors, and it will be completed just by the nature of the path I am taking. But a SMP seems to be the next goal to ace so thank you for that. What do you think about using GRE initially so as to not muddy up my record, and use the knowledge from SMP to take MCAT after SMP completion?

IMHO, your GPA needs to in be the ICU ASAP. Its almost DNR but an SMP for MD or retakes for DO , else your are DOA

thank you for that short and sweet answer Nothing in life you cant add some humor to make it a little sweeter.

It seems obscene to spend the money and time required to do all of the above before getting into med school....Why are you against pursuing a DO program.......more realistic shot with only 1-2 years of retakes (for less money)?

I liked your post, very good points. Well most importantly.I dont care about money. I dont care about how much debt I have. I have property I will inherit which will eventually pay off all loans even if I reach and max out my graduate loans of 70 credits, before medicine. This is what i really wanna do in my life. Thats why I spent every single day including weekends, at the library for 16 hours a day ensuring I am at least on the right track. My past is spotty and a story that is not so unique, all I can do is move forward from it. I was hung up on the past for a long time. It nearly destroyed me. But just learning to live with my mistakes and learn from them.

You raise some good questions. The way I see it an extra even 5 years to get to a place I want to go is worth it. I am trying to minimize the risk, seems like I am building a recipe for a mid-life crisis if things dont work out, so I have to be careful about that. I just dont want to do DO because the MD path is an arduous one. I dont want to shy away from a risky challenge and be sitting out on a porch in Colorado at 60 years old, going over and over in my head the "what IFs?". This has been a catalyst. I dont want to live with regrets. I guess give it my all and be at peace with my soul when I fail giving it my all. Or the other option, succeed and get into 1 MD program.

 

[ridethecliche]

Why would you take the GRE if you want to go to med school?

 

[StudyLater]

Lots of assumptions to keep yourself going on the MD path - 4.0s and 90th+ percentile MCATs don't always work out in reality (do your hw on the new MCAT before assuming it's easily crushable). The more...what do you call it...parsimonious approach would be to simply go DO. Only downside is you'll have to deal with some discrimination if you're vying for an MD match (which you'll do because the training is generally of a higher caliber) - this can be offset, however, by excellent USMLE scores. Essentially, you'd be on the same path, and in the end you'll be working side by side with MDs as professional equals.

The two paths are basically the same, from the premed perspective. I'm just telling you keep DO in the front of your mind. The only thing different you've got to do is get a DO letter and do a different application. So it would be in your best interest to find a DO, or, if you're already shadowing one that's even better. Some of us have excellent GPAs and are still doing this to keep our options open if the MCAT screws us.

 

[MrLogan13]

At the end of the day, you want to be a physician. Don't poo poo the DO route if that is what you want to do. To do so is foolish and naive.

 

[NonTrad16]

I know beggers cant be choosers, and I really am in medicine to help people. I have realms within medicine I really enjoy: Immunology, Cardiology or Surgery, Rheumatology. I know myself, and I feel like I wouldnt be successful in DO knowing the uphill battle to get into a residency. I have friends in DO, and my gears are wired to tackle the problem a little differently than I have seen them taught.

I dont care about money. I dont care about how much debt I have. I have property I will inherit which will eventually pay off all loans even if I reach and max out my graduate loans of 70 credits, before medicine. This is what i really wanna do in my life. Thats why I spent every single day including weekends, at the library for 16 hours a day ensuring I am at least on the right track. My past is spotty and a story that is not so unique, all I can do is move forward from it.

You raise some good questions. The way I see it an extra even 5 years to get to a place I want to go is worth it. I am trying to minimize the risk, seems like I am building a recipe for a mid-life crisis if things dont work out, so I have to be careful about that. I just dont want to do DO because the MD path is an arduous one. I dont want to shy away from a risky challenge and be sitting out on a porch in Colorado at 60 years old, going over and over in my head the "what IFs?". This has been a catalyst. I dont want to live with regrets. I guess give it my all and be at peace with my soul when I fail giving it my all. Or the other option, succeed and get into 1 MD program.

I'm getting conflicting information here:
1) You wouldn't be successful in a DO program knowing the uphill battle for a residency (and 'different' learning style?).
2) You will instead pursue the MD (despite it being a large uphill battle to get in).

Also (just to continue procrastinating my studying for an organic final...):
-You know medicine, and what you enjoy. I'd ask: "How?" Personally, I think everyone should be OK with the idea of being a PCP, since... who knows what can happen? (But I had a PCP parent, so... I have a fondness for the area.) Who says you can't get an IM fellowship as a DO?
-Even if you had enough money to pay for the entirety of medical school without loans, there's a cost to it. 250k in mutual or index funds instead of paying tuition could generate a lot of cash over a career (that you don't have to earn or pay back). The less you spend to get through medical school, the faster you can start saving for retirement/college funds/midlife crisis corvettes/etc. If you can save 10k, 20k, 50k, whatever... the more, the better! (Less financial burden = more career freedom)

So basically.... You want to help patients, but as an MD. Truthfully, I just worry about burnout -- if you fight so long to simply get into a program... that's only the beginning. The real work that will allow you to become a great physician will not happen until you're in medical school (or, rather, residency and beyond).

As a non-trad career changer, I've spent a year pulling 60+ hour weeks between my job, classes, studying, volunteering... in an effort to be considered by MD schools. I simply want you to be open to the idea of DO so that, if you take that route you can be joyful rather than consider it 'settling'.

Good luck!

 

[Goro]

The GRE is worthless for medical school. Take it only if you want a PhD.

Is it a terrible idea to use the GRE? I kind of think the upper level science courses offered at the smp will only help my MCAT score.

Yes, but ONLY when you're ready.
And I wanted to only take the MCAT once so I didnt make a spotty record, so after the smp take the MCAT ?


1) Worry about getting into medical school before you worry about your specialty. Have you shadowed a rheumatologist?
2) Did you know that the Dean of TUNCOM is a DO rheumatologist? I've met other DOs in this specialty, and others in nephrology, neurology, anesthesiology, cardiology, orthopods, etc. You CAN get into a specialty with a DO. For some ACGME programs, you'll have to work a little harder, but it's doable. My students do this all the time.

I know beggers cant be choosers, and I really am in medicine to help people. But I am not an ear, nose, throat kind of person. I have realms within medicine I really enjoy: Immunology, Cardiology or Surgery, Rheumatology. I know myself, and I feel like I wouldnt be successful in DO knowing the uphill battle to get into a residency. I have friends in DO, and my gears are wired to tackle the problem a little differently than I have seen them taught. Its just a personal preference. But I value your opinion to a high regard, and it might come to it that my personal preference will mean next to nothing considering the situation I am in. I think applying to DO like you said, is something I inevitably will have to do when I also apply to MD down the road.


Stop with the GRE already!
I am 89% done with my second bachelors, and it will be completed just by the nature of the path I am taking. But a SMP seems to be the next goal to ace so thank you for that. What do you think about using GRE initially so as to not muddy up my record, and use the knowledge from SMP to take MCAT after SMP completion?


Words are easy, doing is hard.
You raise some good questions. The way I see it an extra even 5 years to get to a place I want to go is worth it. I am trying to minimize the risk, seems like I am building a recipe for a mid-life crisis if things dont work out, so I have to be careful about that. I just dont want to do DO because the MD path is an arduous one. I dont want to shy away from a risky challenge and be sitting out on a porch in Colorado at 60 years old, going over and over in my head the "what IFs?". This has been a catalyst. I dont want to live with regrets. I guess give it my all and be at peace with my soul when I fail giving it my all. Or the other option, succeed and get into 1 MD program.

 

[moisne]

It's simple: Retake classes - apply DO

 

[hoffen]

Why would you take the GRE if you want to go to med school?

Should have said this from beginning, but to cover all my options, after my first bachelors i took the GRE. I did well. And the SMP I am going for will take GRE or MCAT. The GRE score can be a couple of years old. So I still have time to sit on it. Initially I thought about finishing grad school before applying to medical school, but this did not seem cost-effective or patch up some holes from the past.

Lots of assumptions to keep yourself going on the MD path - 4.0s and 90th+ percentile MCATs don't always work out in reality (do your hw on the new MCAT before assuming it's easily crushable).
The two paths are basically the same, from the premed perspective. I'm just telling you keep DO in the front of your mind.

Oh I couldnt agree more. I personally think the new MCAT is harder, and the 93 credits didnt sound bad considering I am biding my time to see how the new MCAT works out and more practice is available. My main concern is to take it when I am ready and only once.

I think applying for DO and MD is the best decision. I see lots of people here seem to apply to both and then see how the cycle turns out.

Shadowing one would be even better, I could really get a feel for it. I have always shadowed MDs, never a DO. always good to have a variety of experiences under my belt.

At the end of the day, you want to be a physician. Don't poo poo the DO route if that is what you want to do. To do so is foolish and naive.

I specifically aimed to say it was a "personal approach". I didnt say the material was of any less worth, I said it wasnt for my personal approach thats all. Just trying to swim in all the facts. A quick search on SDN yielded data from 2008 that said "94.2% of US MD school graduating seniors matched
71.6% of DO applicants matched (a record high)". But a lot of complex factors go into this type of generalized data, most importantly Step 1 & 2 scores. And just to clarify your earlier post, I see your point about having to take lots of credits. The calculator that is used to do those type of GPA projections does not allow for leeway between grades. At least the one I was using. thats why I said disclaimer, these increments are based on a 4.0 assumption. I can say I will strive to do my best, but a 4.0 across 93 credits is unreasonable (especially for a student like me).

so that, if you take that route you can be joyful rather than consider it 'settling'.

1.) Good point. I just need to take everyone's advice about being more receptive towards DO. Like you said I just have to get my mind in the game if thats my path, because right now mentally I dont see it.
2.) The chance of me having kids is slim to none. Thats all I will say about that. So I am kind of traveling on this path on my own. A partner would be nice, but not banking on anything. So energy can go towards what I see fit.
3.) I have burned out before. Got to watch out. Excellent point, I am not even on the tracks of the real marathon yet.

Thank you all for advice. Everyone post makes me mull over and think things through. Prioritize and see if its logistically possible and sound what I have in my head.

 

[Vain Brother]

@NonTrad16 makes a good point. your goal is to be a specialist physician. given where you are now, you can't get there without climbing one of two big "hills". you can either (and i'm going to grossly simplify for the sake of discussion):

1) do extremely well in your 100+ additional pre-med credits (big hill option #1) and get into an MD school. once in MD school, you would have to do "merely" reasonably well to match into an IM residency to get one of those fellowships you listed

2) do "merely" well with grade replacement and MCAT, enough to get into DO school. once in DO school, you would have to do extremely well (IOW, be around the top of your class)(big hill option #2) to match into an MD IM residency or surgery

either way there will have to be a period of time where you have to crush your peers, whether it's in pre-med (path #1) or in DO school (path #2). path #2 seems like the more cost-effective option to me

 

[hoffen]

Goro,

Thank you for the post.

Sorry I should have clarified I took the GRE already and the SPM takes both. I never saw the point of SMP taking MCAT scores. The classes in medical school they mimic are so helpful towards MCAT.
I have shadowed an MD rheumatologist. I shadowed mine actually. Didint know that about Adcom. I know DO is a respected path, I have no doubt about that.
Gotta take my words and turn them into actions. Starting with this summer semester of Orgo I and II.

@NonTrad16 you can't get there without climbing one of two big "hills". (and i'm going to grossly simplify for the sake of discussion): either way there will have to be a period of time where you have to crush your peers, whether it's in pre-med (path #1) or in DO school (path #2). path #2 seems like the more cost-effective option to me

That pretty much sums it up.
That makes me think of DO even to a higher regard for my options. There is still a path to get to where I want to go.
Whatever specialty i choose (I know it changes like majors and is more grounded in facts and scores).

Option #1 seems favorable, because if not possible, option 2 is still down the road ?? Option #2 is a gamble in itself, because any slip up in an already competitive program would derail me. Undergrad classes are, we can agree, much easier than any DO/MD program. If its just the cost I would work and go to school, sell whatever, do whatever. I wanted to know if MD schools will put it past me, and look at the potential success now. Or if the MD door was closed even if I took 100+ credits.
Either way I guess in the meantime do the best I possibly can in my classes. Apply both DO/MD. After SMP.

I still dont know if the work for 3.0 --> 3.2 is worth it? Get a 3.0 and go to SMP. Or stick around to improve even more. its an extra 60 credits after I achieve 3.0 (93 total) But seems like with MD schools, proving myself beyond any doubt across 100 credits is the only way to get people to stop glancing at my past for a mere second and focus on the rest of the application.

 

[Pasmal]

Calculated using AAMC 2014 matriculant GPA/MCAT data:
Avg total GPA: 3.69 SD 0.25

3.0 = 2.76 standard deviations below average matriculant
Calculated percentile: 0.3% (99.7% of matriculants have higher GPA or 1 in 323 chance of getting in)

3.2 = 1.96 standard deviations below average matriculant
Calculated percentile: 2.5% (97.5% of matriculants have higher GPA or 1 in 39 chance of getting in) + whatever value you assign to getting solid grades for that time period and its potentially favorable impact on the adcom (but this is probably directly correlated with your mcat score aka you'd need to do quite well)

It's not cut and dry, it's up to you to decide how badly you want the MD vs DO and whether all that work (assuming it goes 100% as planned) is worth the return on investment shown above as opposed to grade replacement.

 

[NonTradJp]

OP, I think your mind is set so I have some advice based on what I can see. There are schools that look at recent grades more than other schools. Michigan State comes to mind. I think there are about two other MD schools.

At the same time, I think you should look up the DO degree more. Maybe you're confused about it. As a premed I would not truly know. I have heard that DO would make it harder for the very top research heavy residency programs or prestigious residency programs. But I think each specialty has tons of programs. So the very top is a small percentage where it is remarked to be different and rest have minor effects. That's what I hear.

Next, maybe you can consider moving to another state that has plenty of med schools and strong IS preference to nudge it up a bit. Though you're grades right now will be a daunting red flag.

Lastly, check out the gpa underdog threads. There are inspiring stories and good experiences. You can also PM me if you just want a someone to listen.

 

[hoffen]

Calculated using AAMC 2014 matriculant GPA/MCAT data:
Avg total GPA: 3.69 SD 0.25

It's not cut and dry, it's up to you to decide how badly you want the MD vs DO and whether all that work (assuming it goes 100% as planned) is worth the return on investment shown above as opposed to grade replacement.

Thank you ! some numbers I can work with. It both shows just how deep of a hole I am in (very deep - well beyond the crust layer o_o). And just how much even a nudge of o.01 on GPA makes a difference, nearly a whole sd closer to mean. so I think I am going to do my best with classes and consider both OP and MD as routes. Thank you for the numbers.

OP, I think your mind is set so I have some advice based on what I can see. There are schools that look at recent grades more than other schools. Michigan State comes to mind. I think there are about two other MD schools.

At the same time, I think you should look up the DO degree more. Maybe you're confused about it. As a premed I would not truly know. I have heard that DO would make it harder for the very top research heavy residency programs or prestigious residency programs. But I think each specialty has tons of programs. So the very top is a small percentage where it is remarked to be different and rest have minor effects. That's what I hear.

Next, maybe you can consider moving to another state that has plenty of med schools and strong IS preference to nudge it up a bit. Though you're grades right now will be a daunting red flag.

Lastly, check out the gpa underdog threads. There are inspiring stories and good experiences. You can also PM me if you just want a someone to listen.

Thanks for giving me advice based on goals. Currently I am in an okay state, but if push comes to shove I will need to consider gaining residency at least 1 year in advance of applications. It sucks because other states dont have a rule against financial aid like mine does for 2nd bachelors. I would have have the financial loans of the university in other states.

There Are schools that look at the most recent grades. Some I have heard look at last 60 credits. Will look into Michigan, yeah I def need to know the specifics. When I do apply it will be broadly. Been lurking on SDN for sometime now absorbing everything like a sponge. Thanks for extending communication. And the low GPA threads are beyond inspiring. I visit them before every final exam. Next thing to sponge up is DO threads and more info on that.

 

[ridethecliche]

Wait, you're currently doing your second bachelors?

 

[hoffen]

Wait, you're currently doing your second bachelors?

I am sorry I did see that I didnt mention that. Forgive me for that. I do have 1 undergrad degree. Its not related directly to science. Now I am doing a science-based undergrad degree.
Its the reason, past due 120 credits of my first degree, that I have come to the 180 attempted credits in my second.

I am going for second undergrad, like many other smart nontrad students, to get priority registration and financial aid. I am currently 92% (as of yesterday updates for Spring 2015 semester) done with my 2nd undergrad degree. Which I will have completed just by the nature of the classes I am to take in the upcoming months like Orgo and biochem.

 

[tortelliniboy]

I don't understand why you're shunning the DO route; the specialties you listed (aside from surgery) require an internal medicine residency. At the moment internal medicine isn't brutally competitive to get into and DOs matching into it just fine. Saying you only want an MD shows really poor insight and judgment.

Aside from that I feel like you're looking at things in the most idealistic way possible rather than long term reality. The amount of time and money you're going to waste for something a non-guaranteed investment is huge. This is coming from an MD who had paid all of his debt off prior to starting residency.

addendum: yes there is hope, but if this doesn't go as planned this could be a huge set back in life that you created for yourself

 

[ridethecliche]

Gotta love it when people give totally incomplete information...

OP, I believe your GPA will include this old info as well.

Also, yeah, why shun DO given your situation?

 

[BeachBlondie]

"I just dont want to do DO because the MD path is an arduous one.... I dont want to live with regrets.

Hate to break it to you, but the DO path is ALSO arduous. Time to throw all preconceived notions of the "lesser" path out of the window.... ESPECIALLY with the merging DO and MD residency accreditation (which I'm just guessing you weren't aware of, based on your obvious biases).

And, if medicine is truly the ONLY thing you want to do during your brief stint on this planet, then how do you justify looking back and regretting a DO degree? You wanna know what you call a DO grad? "Doctor". End of story.

 

[ridethecliche]

Yeah, good luck getting in anywhere with that attitude OP. You have grandiose expectations and very little in the way of results. Come back after 93 credits and update us.

 

[GrapesofRath]

https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/factstable25-4.pdf

This is by far the best information anybody can give you about your chances of getting into an MD School with your GPA and whatever MCAT you get. Now there are TONS of confounding variables. Just to name a few a) quality of undergraduate school: No it isn't as important as many will think. Yes it matters. Ask a pre med advisor about someone with a 3.3 at Princeton and they'll tell you they will get into med school---a state school most likely but they will get in. Ask a Rutgers pre med advisor and they'll tell you the odds are against that student getting in anywhere. b) those who took significant time off and really did something significant to boost their application vs those who applied while seniors in college c) Those who did post-baccs/had very strong uphill GPA trends and those who did linkage programs that assured them admission if they kept a certain post-bacc GPA. These are a few of MANY confounding variables.

First of all, you've done well in a couple pre req classes which is awesome. That's a whole different story than doing well for 3+ years of 100+ credits. There are tons of people who calculate their potential GPAs before taking any of the classes they need to and seeing what it can be if they get 4.0's in everything coming up; I've yet to see anybody in this site do that and then come back 3 years later with an actual 4.0 to show for it. Doesn't mean you can't do it but take this one semester at a time. Organic Chemistry/BioChemistry and Upper level science classes are a different ball game than Gen Chem and Intro Bio.

But if we want to do this game here's the math; you work your absolute ass off these next three years and produce a 3.85. Your cumulative GPA will be in the 3.0-3.2 range. Assuming your white, even a very strong MCAT score in the range of 33-35(or the equivalent percentile on the new MCAT which will be around top 4-10%) still only puts you at about a 35% chance of getting into an MD school. And keep in mind a 33-35 MCAT score is very good and not something you can just assume someone gets. There is alot more into getting an MCAT score than just studying; reading comprehension and natural ability comes into play significantly. Not everyone can just study their ass off and end up with a 33-35 MCAT, that's part of what makes it the MCAT.

So there is a basic analysis of what you're looking at. Of course good research work/volunteering/ and other activities can make a difference. As others above have said, dismissing a DO for no valid reason is just not intelligent at all. And saying that you don't think you can match into residency as a DO is not at all a valid reason for just saying I need to get into an MD school to pursue my dream or bust.

 

[hoffen]

Lets keep the threat fruitful people. Not taking the bait for the debates. I respect everyone's personal decisions. I dont think a hierarchy in medicine exists based on titles. My aunt's an MD, my mom is an RN. Medicine runs in my family. A nurse is sometimes better than a doctor in making a judgement call. Its all about the heart that people put into their work. SO a DO is no less a doctor than an MD.

If anyone actually read, I said Its not my personal preference. I didnt "Poo Poo" or doo doo the route. Everyone has a path in life, and I am trying to steer mine. Granted I have lost control of the steering wheel in the Past, and no one but me knows my circumstances, you got one life to live and I said I dont want to live mine with regrets.

For some of us, the dreams you build are not gonna dissolve overnight because someone on a forum told you to do so. This seemingly tireless and angry defending of the DO route is off putting. A more logical, numbers approach would really be a convincing point. I am a long-time lurker and I am taking in all of these comments and sifting through who actually knows what they are talking about. Which seems to be a big part of seeking advice here. To all the people who actually posted constructive criticism, especially those backed up by numbers, I thank you dearly ! I am really grateful and considering, reading over, and analyzing each and every comment a couple of times.

@BeachBlondie I am not going after a tittle, that is the least of my worries. Interested in practicing medicine within the four fields I posted. I recently learned about the merge, and I dont fully understand the implications of it. I learned about it on the thread posted last week. Very interested in this topic. What is the merge gonna do? I wish someone actually knew more about the implications behind it. Do you know anything more about it other than that its happening? how is it going to merge the DO and MD ways?

@ridethecliche thats the goal ! Not sure how I entirely mislead you with my comment and gave "totally incomplete information"....... A little blown out of proportion as expected, but nonetheless you said something entirely correct. I need more credits under my belt with good grades to have this talk again.

@tortelliniboy thank you your advice means a lot to me. Thats a very good point Internal Medicine is a key piece and I have learned through this thread I was ignorant on that fact. I think I got really off-put by the notion that someone posted "no one from DO got into a vascular surgery residency this year". I didn't even bother checking if that was true or not. Right now by the numbers, it looks like I am gambling away my 20s on this deal, that has a low payoff rate. Yeah I really need to tread carefully. Most of all, consider DO more. Thank you. I just want people to know this is the largest piece of the puzzle I want to build in my life. I want to live across the hospital and work. In my heart this is what I want to do. I am not big on having a family, and I dont bank on having a partner. What happens happens. But Medicine in some shape or form, is a guarantee. my back-up plan has always been a paramedic, I would be so happy doing that. I could die happy.

@GrapesofRath thank you for that post !!! That really puts everything into perspective. You just reminded me that I need to do all the training for the Verbal section now, not later. I am watching closely the new MCAT. Your completely logical approach to the topic of DO welcomes the idea. I wish more people took this approach. You are absolutely right its not entirely a valid excuse, when hard work is needed at both ends of the stick. I bookmarked that link. Its a something to reference to keep myself going. And thats a smart thing to point out - there are a lot of hard classes to come. Staying on top of all of them is going to be difficult. Do my best and come back to seek more advice.

10 credits of sciences for summer. Hoping they go well. I really do need to come back when I have more under my belt and hear what you guys have to say

 

[BlackBox]

Wow

 

[Mad Jack]

You raise some good questions. The way I see it an extra even 5 years to get to a place I want to go is worth it. I am trying to minimize the risk, seems like I am building a recipe for a mid-life crisis if things dont work out, so I have to be careful about that. I just dont want to do DO because the MD path is an arduous one. I dont want to shy away from a risky challenge and be sitting out on a porch in Colorado at 60 years old, going over and over in my head the "what IFs?". This has been a catalyst. I dont want to live with regrets. I guess give it my all and be at peace with my soul when I fail giving it my all. Or the other option, succeed and get into 1 MD program.

If you want to throw away multiple potential years of practice and hundreds of thousands of dollars for no good reason. I mean, the real "what if" you'll be facing is "what if I'd entered practice much sooner?" DO school is no easier to complete than MD school- hell, with all the extra crap we have to learn, I'd say it's actually kind of more difficult, so if you're looking for difficult simply for the sake of difficult, DO fits the bill.

At the end of the day, when you're an attending, people don't call you "MD" or "DO." They call you "doctor," and further refer to you by specialty, not degree (anesthesiologist, cardiologist, etc). I've never seen a DO attending treated any differently than his MD colleagues post-residency, or even within residency, when both types of resident were present. You'll see that in the real world, and be far more likely to be like, "why did I waste so many years of my life trying to get into an MD school (and likely failing regardless, I might add), when I could have been an attending already and be spending quality time with my spouse, kids, friends, and family, making the exact same pay doing the exact same job years earlier."

 

[hoffen]

If you want to throw away multiple potential years of practice and hundreds of thousands of dollars for no good reason. I mean, the real "what if" you'll be facing is "what if I'd entered practice much sooner?" DO school is no easier to complete than MD school- hell, with all the extra crap we have to learn, I'd say it's actually kind of more difficult, so if you're looking for difficult simply for the sake of difficult, DO fits the bill.

At the end of the day, when you're an attending, people don't call you "MD" or "DO." They call you "doctor," and further refer to you by specialty, not degree (anesthesiologist, cardiologist, etc). I've never seen a DO attending treated any differently than his MD colleagues post-residency, or even within residency, when both types of resident were present. You'll see that in the real world, and be far more likely to be like, "why did I waste so many years of my life trying to get into an MD school (and likely failing regardless, I might add), when I could have been an attending already and be spending quality time with my spouse, kids, friends, and family, making the exact same pay doing the exact same job years earlier."

I just don't really care about the money. I could not stress this point more. Recently I have seen this paradigm pop up I was unaware of, thinking of medicine in terms of potential years of income. The sooner the better. Granted its a really good point to look at, I would have never stumbled upon it on my own. Mainly because I find nothing materialistic all that exciting. Vacations are great, I can say money gives you the freedom to travel, but you can do that regardless of your standing.
The one thing that you mentioned that strikes a chord with me is the notion of years of practice. The more experience you have in medicine, the better you are. The younger you start, the better off you are (Putting out disclaimers not to offend anyone: generally speaking. I know there are exceptions, and people's energy varies. An experienced PA at whatever age has a better equipped skill-set to tackle residency than a matriculate right out of the 7 year medical school program). This is a concern for my case. If I potentially apply and matriculate by 31, I would reach residency late in the game. Which has its own effects.

This morning I walked into class with a NP (applying MD/DO) who started talking to me about the DO route. If that's not the sign from the universe I dunno what is. Very interesting conversation.

Also found this thread that discussed the differences and potential effects for those interested. There are plenty of others :

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/the-md-do-residency-merger.1123275/

 

[Pasmal]

Did we mention you should consider DO?

 

[hoffen]

Haha 😉

Yeahhhh. Looking up more info all around. Using that search button. Def applying DO. I wouldn't be living in reality if I didn't follow through with that decision.

Thank you ~

 

[BlackBox]

If you want to throw away multiple potential years of practice and hundreds of thousands of dollars for no good reason. I mean, the real "what if" you'll be facing is "what if I'd entered practice much sooner?" DO school is no easier to complete than MD school- hell, with all the extra crap we have to learn, I'd say it's actually kind of more difficult, so if you're looking for difficult simply for the sake of difficult, DO fits the bill.

At the end of the day, when you're an attending, people don't call you "MD" or "DO." They call you "doctor," and further refer to you by specialty, not degree (anesthesiologist, cardiologist, etc). I've never seen a DO attending treated any differently than his MD colleagues post-residency, or even within residency, when both types of resident were present. You'll see that in the real world, and be far more likely to be like, "why did I waste so many years of my life trying to get into an MD school (and likely failing regardless, I might add), when I could have been an attending already and be spending quality time with my spouse, kids, friends, and family, making the exact same pay doing the exact same job years earlier."

For some reason I read the first paragraph in my head, yelling. 😉