Any MD/DVM out there?

[ClarinetGeek]

I am new to this forum. I have been considering an MD/PhD for awhile, but I have been recently considering MD/DVM, something I had wanted to do many years ago when I worked as a technician in a veterinary hospital. Since then, I have discovered other interests, but this seems to intrigue me. If there are any of you out there or those who are considering a similiar pathway, let me know. I would be curious what programs are sympathetic to this pathway, and how to go about it as well as career options. Thanks.

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[Anubis84]

I am new to this forum. I have been considering an MD/PhD for awhile, but I have been recently considering MD/DVM, something I had wanted to do many years ago when I worked as a technician in a veterinary hospital. Since then, I have discovered other interests, but this seems to intrigue me. If there are any of you out there or those who are considering a similiar pathway, let me know. I would be curious what programs are sympathetic to this pathway, and how to go about it as well as career options. Thanks.

No offense, but why? If you want to be a vet, get your DVM and don't waste the money & time on an MD. If you want to be an MD, the DVM won't help you at all! The two degrees are not congruent, do not complement each other, and you'd be wasting time and money.

An MD/PHD or DVM/PHD make sense. A PHD is a research degree and the MD and DVM are clinical degrees. If you want to be a researcher, the PhD is worth it and doesn't add unncessary time and money to accomplish your goals.

I don't think any program would be sympathetic, and there are no joint degree programs Im aware of. You might get a year shaved off one program, but the MD programs would probably not allow that. Don't use the DVM as a stepping stone to the MD. Get an MS or MPH if you're not sure, then apply to vet or med school. A DVM/MD is just....well, IMO, silly. Not sure why you'd want to do both. What's the point? Pick one and put your enegeries into it.

 

[hopeful_dvm]

I really don't understand all of the talk on this forum from those who can't choose between MD and DVM?? And those you who apply to both programs simultaneously really angers me because of all of those out there who know what area of medicine (read: human vs animal!) they woud like to study that would give anything for the chance to pursue their dream...The part that bothers me the most is that most of the cause for concern concerns salary, professional recognition, etc...I personally cannot identity with what it is like to not be able to decide..I am starting vet school in the fall and I have never once considered getting my MD over my DVM...Your decision about your profession should be that which you are most passionate about and that goals that you want to achieve in your life...If you can't decide between the two then maybe you are not ready to give 100% to either profession...

 

[2quick]

I'm one of those people who, at one point, had trouble deciding which path to take (DVM vs. MD) so obviously I don't think it should be that difficult to understand why someone may be attracted to both professions. Actually, I find it interesting when a pre-vet tells me he/she never considered going to the 'other' side, as there are many parallels between human and vet med.
Both require the practitioner to have:
-a love of applied science and medicine
-empathy for patients and a sincere desire to assist them
-a strong affinity for an understanding of biological systems and disease processes
-etc...
And you'd better like dealing with people as a vet too, since, as the adage goes, your patients (usually) won't walk into the clinic by themselves.

It was predominantly the ethics of both professions that had me leaning toward human medicine. If you really look into the ethical framework of veterinary medicine (which I'm sure you have), it can be mind boggling. People eat some animals, perform painful experiments on others, spend thousands of dollars on a new hip for their pet, etc… And how you act as a veterinarian differs based upon the circumstances of the situation.
Even though some people have more money, power, etc... than others, at the end of the day your job as an MD is, in comparison, relatively clear- try your best not to let your patient die (extraordinary circumstances not withstanding).

Obviously veterinary medicine has equally compelling positive attributes which I'm sure I don't need to go into; I just wanted to make the point that for someone who loves both animals and people, and has a great interest in the science of medicine, it's not necessarily an easy choice.

It was only after volunteering in a human transplant unit a couple years ago that I finally felt sure I was more drawn toward veterinary than human medicine- I found I just didn't have the same feeling working there as I did my vet hospitals- the passion was lacking.

In short, you don't forsake your prospects in one profession just for evidencing an interest in another. However, I do agree that, if you take the time to think about where you envision yourself in 20 years, the answer will eventually make itself clear.

But hey, nothing wrong with an MD/DVM! I'd love to bring my cat with me to the doctor 🙂

Andrew

 

[birdvet2006]

Everyone seems so angry about this. I personally think it's a cool idea and have heard of people doing it (getting both MD and DVM). Usually it's not a planned thing - the person gets one degree and after a few years in practice (or more) decides to get the other degree.

I have been reading about the veterinary specialty of dentistry. Did you know there's an option to become a board certified veterinary dentist - if you have both a DDS (or whatever the dental degree is) and a DVM? I think that's totally cool. If you don't get your DDS, the other option is a residency. During your residency you are sent to a human dental school for some classes.

I like how the same science is used in both medical and vet professions. I enjoy being able to discuss human AND animal cases with my mom (who works in the human medical field).

I have only been slightly attracted to human medicine - my passion is vet med. I find many human things gross (injuries and surgeries involving hands...yuck!...gynecology, proctology - EWW). I have just recently realised that if I had to, I could function in the human med world. I was at a classical concert a few months ago and the older man who was sitting next to me began to seizure. I worried a lot about him and wanted to help. I still wonder what was wrong with him (it wasn't epilepsy, and I had thought of diabetes but it wasn't that either). I never realised that I felt so much compassion for PEOPLE. It sounds bad, but I am very much an animal person. I care how animal owners feel (I can relate), but I have never felt much sympathy for sick people (I know, that's terrible).


Cindy

 

[verbal_kint]

-aren't there many gross animal things? (pyometra, explosive bloody diarrhea, abscesses, annal glands, etc) Seems funny that you don't like gross things, but still like vet med.

-I don't agree with people who apply to both human and vet medicine at the same time. I don't think your decision on which you pursue should be left to the admission committees. I can understand why that angers you, but you honestly don't see how people could have a hard time deciding between the two? that amazes me. I think 2quick did a great job explaning how/why people would struggle with that.

 

[birdvet2006]

-aren't there many gross animal things? (pyometra, explosive bloody diarrhea, abscesses, annal glands, etc) Seems funny that you don't like gross things, but still like vet med.

Nothing grosses me out when it comes to animals. I love maggott-picking and flea-picking. I am not particularly happy to swim in parvo diarrhoea, but it doesn't make me want to gag. You just have to love abscesses! I also enjoy anal gland expression (I'd rather express than restrain). I have never felt nauseous/faint in surgery, or watching surgery. Repro exam on a cow? No problem. Necropsies? Sure, any day. Euthanasia and stun/slaughter - will do as necessary.

For the most part, I can tolerate most human stuff too...but not everything.


Cindy

 

[ClarinetGeek]

Sorry for a delay on my part. I am in the middle of finals (only one more left!).

First off, I want to emphasize that I would not apply to both programs in attempt to resolve some interconflict about whether to be a DVM or MD. I solved that issue many years ago, deciding that human medicine was my primary passion despite the years as a VT. The only reason for getting both an MD and DVM would be to pursuing an interest in epidemiology/infectious diseases. I am particulary interested in interspecies transmission of diseases such as Ebola (monkey --> human), flu (birds --> human) or pirons (interconnections with BSE (mad cow), CWD (deer), and CJD(humans). I invision a career in something like the CDC. It is just an idea I have had since I was young and read such books as Preston's The Hot Zone and Rhode's Deadly Feasts.

I didn't mean to envoke such hostility. 🙁 I should have clarified to begin with. I was just looking for some advice on the possibilities of pursing this unconventional pathway.

Btw, after time as a VT and CNA, human gross and animal gross are the same. Doesn't really bother me. After awhile, you being to equate the two and never think twice about it. 😉

 

[bern]

If those are your goals, why not go for a DVM/MPH, or combine an MD or DVM with epidemiological studies? If you want to work in the area of zoonotic diseases, it might make more sense.

 

[ghostsamurai]

Sorry for a delay on my part. I am in the middle of finals (only one more left!).

I'm happy your interest is in zoonoses. mine too.
I'm going the DVM pathway because I feel DVMs are better trained
(than MDs) to understand zoonoses and the role of pathogen in the environment and the pathophysiology of disease in animals.
In other words, I chose the DVM route because I like vet med and I felt a DVM practicing public health and infectious disease control is a specialized form of human medicine...kinda like human neurology or something.
As an infectious disease MD I think you'd have more clout and more job opportunuties to work on infectious diseases. The general public trust DVMs more but hold a higher regard for human docs. Thus there's inequity in salaries and opportunities btn DVM and MDs which is why so many vets have such a chip on their shoulders which it understandable.
I have a background in infectious diseases and too thought about an MD (and still think about it) but felt in the end vet med is a better fit for me and my [everchanging] career aspirations.
also look into DVM/PhD in either some biology (immuno/micro/comparative path etc.) or epidemiology

I know a DVM/MD (did vet 1st and human 2nd) and she hated med school and thought about dropping out everyday...??
I'm just not sure about MD/DVM...thats a long road: 4 yrs vet, 4 yrs human, 3-4 residency (minimum), post doc research?

My advice is to look and ask around , I guarantee that almost everyone you ask says its better to be a human med doctor...
thats what they tell me and continue to tell me...
but it doesn't mean you have to listen to them

 

[ClarinetGeek]

Thanks bern and ghostsamurai for the great advice! I really appreciate it. I think at this point I will stick with the MD, since I know that human medicine is my primary interest. I have just finished my junior year, and with the MCATs done, I think am ready to apply to med school. I will definately look into epidemology and infectious diseases in med school (if I can get in...). Once I am done I will see where I am at and whether I want to persue a DVM and if it is necessary for my career at that point.

Thanks you guys! You are great! Best of luck to you all.

 

[bern]

Thanks bern and ghostsamurai for the great advice! I really appreciate it. I think at this point I will stick with the MD, since I know that human medicine is my primary interest. I have just finished my junior year, and with the MCATs done, I think am ready to apply to med school. I will definately look into epidemology and infectious diseases in med school (if I can get in...). Once I am done I will see where I am at and [/I]whether I want to persue a DVM and if it is necessary for my career at that point.

Thanks you guys! You are great! Best of luck to you all.

And good luck to you!

You also might want to consider that the first year of both med and vet school will likely consist of a lot of basic science stuff - if you have already done it one or the other, doing it again may be a real waste, and a year is a long time (especially if you are racking up school loans all the while).

When I first started as a pre-med student years ago, I was also very interested in epidemiology - I'd read The Coming Plague and thought it sounded quite exciting! If you end up going that route, you should have a stimulating career ahead of you. Nothing like a little danger to keep you from getting bored!

 

[CoffeeCrazy]

I didn't read through this whole thread so I'm sorry if I repeat something -

Anyway, I went to a talk by an epidemiologist who is a DVM/PhD. He said that veterinarians are often not consulted in outbreak cases (that baffles me). Until a bunch of zoos got together and proved that they could demonstrate that zoo animals are a good predictor for the spread of West Nile, DVMs and the animal community were pretty much ignored by the CDC. DVMs are usually interested in the ANIMAL implications but until you make the HUMAN connection, money doesn't float your way. Unfortunately, that connection often happens too late (i.e. after people die).

So... while the field is changing SLOWLY to acknowledge that DVMs may have an important contribution to make, it might serve you better and give you a louder voice if you went the MD/PhD route.

 

[ghostsamurai]

I didn't read through this whole thread so I'm sorry if I repeat something -

I work with Vet epidemiologists in a state health department. Vets play an important role in disease surveillance, not only diseases contracted thru exposure at a zoos or statefairs and not necessarily fatal cases. Vets epidemiologists are consulted all the time when cases of diseases occur (e.g. rabies cases (imported or autochthonous), west nile, hantavirus, lyme, brucellosis, etc.) and sometimes perform followup investigations or help oversee an outbreak investigation. California is lucky in that many vet-epidemiologists work in the state health department in different capacities (epi, biologist, administrative, lab, etc.) and different sections (Maternal Child and Adolescent Health, Vectorborne Diseases, Veterinary PH, Food and Radiation Safety, Environmental Safety, Stats and Surveillance etc.)

The real problem for vets is that public health is ultimately human medicine and obviously MDs are better trained to deal with human health...and most of the outbreak investigations occur at the local health department level (unless its very strange or unique disease, then state and feds are called upon) and at the local health department level there are rarely any DVMs, mostly MDs, and mostly infectious disease nurses and MPHs perform the outbreak investigations while the MDs oversee everything.

 

[doc-to-be]

I'm one of those people who, at one point, had trouble deciding which path to take (DVM vs. MD) so obviously I don't think it should be that difficult to understand why someone may be attracted to both professions. Actually, I find it interesting when a pre-vet tells me he/she never considered going to the 'other' side, as there are many parallels between human and vet med.
Both require the practitioner to have:
-a love of applied science and medicine
-empathy for patients and a sincere desire to assist them
-a strong affinity for an understanding of biological systems and disease processes
-etc...
And you'd better like dealing with people as a vet too, since, as the adage goes, your patients (usually) won't walk into the clinic by themselves.

It was predominantly the ethics of both professions that had me leaning toward human medicine. If you really look into the ethical framework of veterinary medicine (which I'm sure you have), it can be mind boggling. People eat some animals, perform painful experiments on others, spend thousands of dollars on a new hip for their pet, etc… And how you act as a veterinarian differs based upon the circumstances of the situation.
Even though some people have more money, power, etc... than others, at the end of the day your job as an MD is, in comparison, relatively clear- try your best not to let your patient die (extraordinary circumstances not withstanding).

Obviously veterinary medicine has equally compelling positive attributes which I'm sure I don't need to go into; I just wanted to make the point that for someone who loves both animals and people, and has a great interest in the science of medicine, it's not necessarily an easy choice.

It was only after volunteering in a human transplant unit a couple years ago that I finally felt sure I was more drawn toward veterinary than human medicine- I found I just didn't have the same feeling working there as I did my vet hospitals- the passion was lacking.

In short, you don't forsake your prospects in one profession just for evidencing an interest in another. However, I do agree that, if you take the time to think about where you envision yourself in 20 years, the answer will eventually make itself clear.

But hey, nothing wrong with an MD/DVM! I'd love to bring my cat with me to the doctor 🙂

Andrew

Andrew,
Fantastic post, thank you.
dtb

 

[Shodddy18]

Interestingly enough, a professor at my school has both an MD and a DVM. I know he currently practices as a pathologist, but I dont know if he practices as a vet.

 

[doctorbirdog2u]

I am a recovering veterinarian in DO school. I was glancing through the posts and thought there were a lot of good ideas.

I wouldn't recommend doing the vet thing if I had to do it all over again because the pay is so bad, but make no mistake about it, veterinary school is superior training. It's the years of residency after medical school that make a person safe to practice. People say do what you like best in life. After going through vet school and now med school I would think about it another way. Ask yourself what you want for a lifestyle choice and then what jobs fit that choice which you love to do. That's my two cents.

 

[verbal_kint]

how many years did you practice veterinary medicine after graduating and what was your pay like? where did you work (type of practice, location of practice, what state, city, etc) ?

 

[giles]

Doctorbirdog2u, I'm really interested in your comments. Would you care to elaborate on any other reasons you quit being a veterinarian, apart from the pay issue?

I have spent the past 18 months preparing to apply to vet school as a mature student. I have taken extra college courses, spoken with vets, read these forums extensively, done lots of vet work experience and volunteer animal work, and read up the literature and surveys about the pluses and minuses of veterinary careers in various countries. And I have reached the conclusion that the negatives of being a vet greatly outweigh the positives (well, they would for me, anyhow). Consequently, I probably won't apply now.

I'd be interested in your thoughts. Incidentally, I have encountered several vets who have quit and are now in medical school, but only one vet who used to be a doctor.

I am a recovering veterinarian in DO school. I was glancing through the posts and thought there were a lot of good ideas.

I wouldn't recommend doing the vet thing if I had to do it all over again because the pay is so bad, but make no mistake about it, veterinary school is superior training. It's the years of residency after medical school that make a person safe to practice. People say do what you like best in life. After going through vet school and now med school I would think about it another way. Ask yourself what you want for a lifestyle choice and then what jobs fit that choice which you love to do. That's my two cents.

 

[bern]

I recently spoke with a doctor who had chosen med school over veterinary school for what sound like reasons similar to doctorbirdog2u. He wanted to be sure that he was more than financially secure in his life - he wanted to be comfortable. Not necessarily rich (he would have been an entrepreneur if that had been his goal), but comfortable. Nice house, decent car, retire at a reasonable age. An MD simply offered a better chance at that than a DVM.

Not my choice, but I guess I can see why he made it. It depends on how important a comfortable lifestyle is to you, and what you consider to be "comfortable." I guess it's easy to say that money isn't an important factor when it comes to choosing a career that you're passionate about, but realistically...

Fortunately, I grew up fairly poor so a vet salary sounds great to me!

 

[doctorbirdog2u]

I was in practice only a few years. I had just started a practice with my partner which is a whole other story in northern minnesota. If we weren't paying off bills for starting up, the salary would have been about 75k.

how many years did you practice veterinary medicine after graduating and what was your pay like? where did you work (type of practice, location of practice, what state, city, etc) ?

 

[doctorbirdog2u]

I quit because I got unlucky with some rare consequences of q-fever. I didn't listen to my doctor who recommended I quit, so my reward was to get really sick for a few years. I liked being a dairy vet because of the cows. Although the farmers were mostly very nice, it was difficult to work in a situation where they were being paid more for their product 20 years ago than at the present. I was in an area that was not progressive and didn't believe in herd health or looking at the cost effectiveness of treatments, so that was a bummer. (i.e. pullling out retained placentas which was a call charge, time, and treatment vs. doing it themselves with a lutalyse shot for $4) I tried to convice many to save their money for herd health checks rather than wasting it on non-cost effective treatments, but it was a habit they wouldn't break.

Doctorbirdog2u, I'm really interested in your comments. Would you care to elaborate on any other reasons you quit being a veterinarian, apart from the pay issue?