Any one else finding the MCAT pointless and unjust?

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gujuDoc said:
As much as I'm sure others including myself would like to agree with you, we'd be projecting a double standard by being insulting and contributing to this post which will lead to mods possibly infracting us as well. hence, I wouldn't post posts such as this.

That being said, one last post before this thread dies into oblivion.

You know the recent days news reports and crazy things I was reading in Lawrence Wright's Looming Towers regarding 9/11 and what not has really mad me thankful for everything I have in life. It also made me realize that no matter how much I complain about petty things to my parents or how much we complain about how fair the MCAT is, I'd rather have to deal with the issues of the MCAT then being opressed by religious extremists and fundamentalists, living in a country where escape from poverty is virtually nonexistent, and where women are treated like property rather then human beings.

God bless america. Seriously folks. We complain so much on these boards but the fact of the matter is our lives could be sooooooo much worse.
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except,

poverty is existent

and the US is oppressed by Christian fundamentalists,
 
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QofQuimica posted about it a couple posts above you. In short, it's none of our business, which is correct. All we know is that he violated the TOS or called out another user.
 
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thechairman said:
except,

poverty is existent

and the US is oppressed by Christian fundamentalists,
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As a non christian I don't necessarily agree with you that we are opressed by christian fundamentalists. If we were, I think every single school not private christian schools, would be making people recite versus of the bible. I mean here you have mosques and churches and temples and freedom to express your own beliefs. Is the system perfect?? No, but its much better in places like the US, canada, England, and france then it could be in some other countries.

On the issue of poverty, I don't deny that it exists but at least here there is a greater chance of being able to get out of that situation if you work hard whereas it is much harder in some other portions of the world to escape that situation.

I don't deny problems exist in this country. What country honestly doesn't have problems? But I think the problems this country has are far less when compared to other parts of the world.
 
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gujuDoc said:
As a non christian I don't necessarily agree with you that we are opressed by christian fundamentalists. If we were, I think every single school not private christian schools, would be making people recite versus of the bible. I mean here you have mosques and churches and temples and freedom to express your own beliefs. Is the system perfect?? No, but its much better in places like the US, canada, England, and france then it could be in some other countries.

On the issue of poverty, I don't deny that it exists but at least here there is a greater chance of being able to get out of that situation if you work hard whereas it is much harder in some other portions of the world to escape that situation.

I don't deny problems exist in this country. What country honestly doesn't have problems? But I think the problems this country has are far less when compared to other parts of the world.
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Problems in this country and due to this country are far more sinister than you may fathom. The sad fact is that lots ignore to reach out to it, and forsee it, most simply ignore it, why not as long as their jobs are safe and their incomes are steady, right?:laugh::laugh:
 
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I've read your previous posts, Corpus. I do not mean to attack, but it seems that you are incapable of letting this go.

You look like an older student, if that is you in your avatar, and yet you want to talk about an "unjust" test like a giggling high-schooler.

The fact of the matter is this: The MCAT is a tool that both weeds out people incapable of completing a medical school curriculum and scales quick reasoning capability. This has been proven, time and time again, by both the AAMC and independent research firms.

Personally, I wouldn't want you to be my physician. You seem immature.
 
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Corpus Callosum said:
A test for an admission to medical school has TWICE (x2) English than Biology
and TWICE English than chemistry, TWICE English than organic chemistry TWICE English than physics
in other words MEDICAL COLLEGE ADMISSION TEST HAS:

X2 Humanities than SCIENCES, and for what, becoming a doctor
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A physician is not a scientist. A physician serves as a technician of science, acting as a personable interface between a patient and an otherwise incomprehensible treatment.

You will be working with people.

Again, you will not be in a laboratory. You will be in a patient's room, holding their hand as you inform them they have two months to live. You will be telling that patient's family to prepare for that patient's passing. You have to have a certain sense of personability and compassion to do that.

If you want to be a scientist, then get a Ph.D.

If you want to be a physician, you have to understand the science while also being able to connect with another person. One of the aims of the humanities is to help this along.
 
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robbiekins said:
I've read your previous posts, Corpus. I do not mean to attack, but it seems that you are incapable of letting this go.

You look like an older student, if that is you in your avatar, and yet you want to talk about an "unjust" test like a giggling high-schooler.

The fact of the matter is this: The MCAT is a tool that both weeds out people incapable of completing a medical school curriculum and scales quick reasoning capability. This has been proven, time and time again, by both the AAMC and independent research firms.

Personally, I wouldn't want you to be my physician. You seem immature.
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The immature is who accuses others for being immature without proper foundation. You are right about one thing though, I am not planning to be a pediatrician,:laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
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robbiekins said:
A physician is not a scientist. A physician serves as a technician of science, acting as a personable interface between a patient and an otherwise incomprehensible treatment.

You will be working with people.

Again, you will not be in a laboratory. You will be in a patient's room, holding their hand as you inform them they have two months to live. You will be telling that patient's family to prepare for that patient's passing. You have to have a certain sense of personability and compassion to do that.

If you want to be a scientist, then get a Ph.D.

If you want to be a physician, you have to understand the science while also being able to connect with another person. One of the aims of the humanities is to help this along.
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And I suppose you start telling patients about good and bad news via complex philosophical arguments pertaining to geology, rock formation, femminism, history of china,....:laugh::laugh::laugh:, if you consider the doctor to be on the non-science side more than the science one, you seem to have no clue of what medicine really is, "technician of science".:laugh::laugh:, I would rather have you said patient councling,:laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
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I guess it's about time I ask this question.

Corpus, there are native speakers of English who get high scores in the sciences and just can't pull their verbal score above a 10. Science scores aren't wonderful predictors of verbal scores--that's why there's a verbal section. It's obviously quite difficult to control for the fact that you aren't a native speaker, but what makes you so confident that your verbal woes are actually caused by language barriers? The best way I can think of controlling for it is to take a practice test giving yourself plenty of extra time. I know you've said that even with 15 extra minutes, you have trouble finishing some practice tests. But even here, the problem is that for most people, giving them more time will help their scores, so even that approach can't really separate slower reasoning from language problems. In all honesty, you've basically taken the position that we can't rule out language barriers as the cause of your woes, therefore that MUST be the cause.
 
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scgamer2000 said:
I guess it's about time I ask this question.

Corpus, there are native speakers of English who get high scores in the sciences and just can't pull their verbal score above a 10. Science scores aren't wonderful predictors of verbal scores--that's why there's a verbal section. It's obviously quite difficult to control for the fact that you aren't a native speaker, but what makes you so confident that your verbal woes are actually caused by language barriers? The best way I can think of controlling for it is to take a practice test giving yourself plenty of extra time. I know you've said that even with 15 extra minutes, you have trouble finishing some practice tests. But even here, the problem is that for most people, giving them more time will help their scores, so even that approach can't really separate slower reasoning from language problems. In all honesty, you've basically taken the position that we can't rule out language barriers as the cause of your woes, therefore that MUST be the cause.
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Look, when I understand the passage, I answer most if not all the questions right. I do not have a problem in reasoning, I have a problem in understanding and reading as fast as they expect you to. That is why this test is measuring not my reasoning skills, far from it, as much as reading speed and comprehension, and there where the bias towards non english speakers emerges.
 
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@Corpus

No hard feelings, and you seem like a real cool, decent person.... But haven't enough people told you to quit it and make better use of your time?!

In your next post, sum up how much time you think you've invested into saying why you think the MCAT is crap. I think you'll be surprised, and maybe even wish you had done something else with your time.
 
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Corpus Callosum said:
Look, when I understand the passage, I answer most if not all the questions right. I do not have a problem in reasoning, I have a problem in understanding and reading as fast as they expect you to. That is why this test is measuring not my reasoning skills, far from it, as much as reading speed and comprehension, and there where the bias towards non english speakers emerges.
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But that's true for all of us. In any case, reading something and understanding the words doesn't equate to understanding the passage overall. Somebody's getting the 3s and 4s on the VR section, and I think it's reasonable to say that the vast majority of them are native speakers of English. They may understand the words, but they don't understand the idea. I don't deny that being a non-native speaker can and probably does hurt your score, but I do deny that there's any great evidence for saying it accounts for everything. Presumably this is why schools will look at your transcript to see how you did in the humanities courses you took--the MCAT and GPA work to complement each other.

Also, as a general side note about why VR is even on the MCAT--I think it's on the MCAT for the same reason that admissions counselors are always emphasizing diversity in your extracurricular activities. Schools like well-roundedness, and the VR scores are a way of assessing that.
 
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Corpus Callosum said:
Look, when I understand the passage, I answer most if not all the questions right. I do not have a problem in reasoning, I have a problem in understanding and reading as fast as they expect you to. That is why this test is measuring not my reasoning skills, far from it, as much as reading speed and comprehension, and there where the bias towards non english speakers emerges.
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I don't like to jump into long-winded threads, but I'll make one point regarding the above quote.

As far as testing reading speed, a "slow" reader should be able to finish reading 7 passages containing ~600 words in a decent time frame. However(paraphrasing EK), if you spend more time at improving speed at answering questions as opposed to speed reading, you will most likely finish the exam in an hour. The passages are filled with lots and lots of details for a reason: to see if you can weed through dense material to find the main idea, and apply that main idea to all the questions. So really, if you read the passages trying to understand the inner meaning of every word, it is most likely a waste of time(any questions regarding detail are rare and can be found easily)
 
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Jess8000 said:
@Corpus

No hard feelings, and you seem like a real cool, decent person.... But haven't enough people told you to quit it and make better use of your time?!

In your next post, sum up how much time you think you've invested into saying why you think the MCAT is crap. I think you'll be surprised, and maybe even wish you had done something else with your time.
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I am practicing for the writing section,:laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
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i started to read this last page but very quickly found myself developing suicidal tendencies so instead im just gonna answer the title prompt:

The MCAT is, like Luke Skywalker, my only hope. If you are struggling with it, good, maybe you will bomb it and I will have a chance against all of your rockstar GPAs.
 
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Corpus Callosum said:
Look, when I understand the passage, I answer most if not all the questions right. I do not have a problem in reasoning, I have a problem in understanding and reading as fast as they expect you to. That is why this test is measuring not my reasoning skills, far from it, as much as reading speed and comprehension, and there where the bias towards non english speakers emerges.
Click to expand...

The MCAT is all about leveling the playing field with respect to providing a standardized context for comparing GPA's and other applicant qualities. Further, adcoms want to assess your ability to sift through lots of information in order make decisions about what ideas and details are important. If you can't see the connection between this skill set and success in medschool (think of the drinking out of a firehose metaphor), then you're going to have some issues in medschool anyway.

Beyond that, are you under the impression that you're never going to have time constraints when making decisions about patient care? Point of fact: contemporary physicians are under unbelievable pressure to gather information quickly, make decisions about the saliency of gathered info, generate a differential, and make a determination about the course of treatment. In my opinion, it's perfectly valid to create a situation in which a test-taker feels pressure to read, sort, and draw conclusions from presented info over an abbreviated time period.

For as long as there have been standardized intelligence tests, there have been opponents who characterize them as unfair... and there is probably some element of truth to the criticism as there are data that show these tests don't always provide accurate, predictive measurements of potential in specific cases. However, there is a preponderance of longitudinal data that support the validity of intelligence tests in general, especially when they are used in conjunction with other measures. For example, with respect to the VR section of the MCAT, there is a ton of data that illuminates a solid correlation between an individual's VR score and Step 1 score. But there's an even better correlation when you add undergraduate GPA to the predictive model that already includes VR scores. Further, the data show and an indisputable positive correlation between VR score and Medschool performance. Again though, predicitive value is enhanced when you add undergraduate GPA to the model. If the purpose of using a test like the MCAT is to make predictions about which applicants are likely to be successful in medical school and on the boards, then the above mentioned correlations justify the inclusion of a verbal reasoning section on the MCAT. Although, the data also show that the VR score alone is not as predictively accurate as the VR score + undergrad GPA.

Based on the data, one can infer a likely connection between a test-taker's capacity to reason through a set of dense, difficult philosophical arguments and his/her facility with the content to be assimilated in medical school. Based on the facts, it seems fair to test verbal reasoning on the MCAT. Although perhaps I'm biased because VR was my best section on the exam 🙂
 
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hawk126 said:
The MCAT is all about leveling the playing field with respect to providing a standardized context for comparing GPA's and other applicant qualities. Further, adcoms want to assess your ability to sift through lots of information in order make decisions about what ideas and details are important. If you can't see the connection between this skill set and success in medschool (think of the drinking out of a firehose metaphor), then you're going to have some issues in medschool anyway.

Beyond that, are you under the impression that you're never going to have time constraints when making decisions about patient care? Point of fact: contemporary physicians are under unbelievable pressure to gather information quickly, make decisions about the saliency of gathered info, generate a differential, and make a determination about the course of treatment. In my opinion, it's perfectly valid to create a situation in which a test-taker feels pressure to read, sort, and draw conclusions from presented info over an abbreviated time period.

For as long as there have been standardized intelligence tests, there have been opponents who characterize them as unfair... and there is probably some element of truth to the criticism as there are data that show these tests don't always provide accurate, predictive measurements of potential in specific cases. However, there is a preponderance of longitudinal data that support the validity of intelligence tests in general, especially when they are used in conjunction with other measures. For example, with respect to the VR section of the MCAT, there is a ton of data that illuminates a solid correlation between an individual's VR score and Step 1 score. But there's an even better correlation when you add undergraduate GPA to the predictive model that already includes VR scores. Further, the data show and an indisputable positive correlation between VR score and Medschool performance. Again though, predicitive value is enhanced when you add undergraduate GPA to the model. If the purpose of using a test like the MCAT is to make predictions about which applicants are likely to be successful in medical school and on the boards, then the above mentioned correlations justify the inclusion of a verbal reasoning section on the MCAT. Although, the data also show that the VR score alone is not as predictively accurate as the VR score + undergrad GPA.

Based on the data, one can infer a likely connection between a test-taker's capacity to reason through a set of dense, difficult philosophical arguments and his/her facility with the content to be assimilated in medical school. Based on the facts, it seems fair to test verbal reasoning on the MCAT. Although perhaps I'm biased because VR was my best section on the exam 🙂
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You definitely are, and thats what your whole post boils down too, don't know what else to say when you consider the MCAT an inteligence tester,:laugh:
 
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tideleonheart said:
Well, consider the goal of the admissions committees: They want people who can jump through incredibly pointless hoops. They want people who will be able to handle almost any situation thrown at them *including* incredibly boring and difficult to understand reading topics.

Being in medical school will require a student to intake a large quantity of information in a reasonably short period of time (unless you just spend 100% of your time studying -- not recommended). A deficiency in absorption and comprehension of large quantities of material in English will NOT be good for med school. Our medical schools are American, English medical schools that are meant to help our own culture. Seeing as how a majority of it is English (except some parts of southern florida, southern texas, etc), it is definitely appropriate for our medical schools to teach this way.

Thus, I think it is absolutely appropriate to have the VR section of the MCAT.

As far as having questions similar to Step 1, that would weed out too many applicants that the medical schools want. They are also looking for students who are well diversified, not those who are specialized already in medicine. That's what med school is for: specialization. (hence, Step 1 after 2 years of it)
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Oh?

Having been through a doctorate program myself (dental school), it seemed pretty clear to me that none of the faculty considered the curriculum to consist of "incredibly pointless hoops" and that the admissions committee therefore didn't seek students who could jump through them. But since you're "pre-medical" you must have the inside scoop on what medical schools seek, so I'll yield to your expertise on the subject.

Regarding the VR, I agree that it's necessary, however, not in its current form. The type of prose you encounter on the VR sections are nothing like the prose you'll encounter in the syllabi or textbooks of your physiology, histology, anatomy courses, etc. In the VR section, they are usually short literary works that hint at ideas, i.e. the opinions and information presented in them are done so ambiguously. Contrastingly, in med school (as it was in dental school) the text you read is supposed to pass on factual information to you as unambiguously as possible. Moreover, the questions you face in the VR section require you to try and discern the author's ideas hidden in the text, whereas in medical school (and dental school) your test questions are evaluating your memorization and understanding of the facts you read and almost never ask you to interpret ambiguously presented ideas.

So, I believe that the VR section in the MCAT is not representative of what you'll face in any health professional program. I think the reason AAMC still uses VR in its current form is because that's the best that's available to them.
 
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hawk126 said:
The MCAT is all about leveling the playing field with respect to providing a standardized context for comparing GPA's and other applicant qualities. Further, adcoms want to assess your ability to sift through lots of information in order make decisions about what ideas and details are important. If you can't see the connection between this skill set and success in medschool (think of the drinking out of a firehose metaphor), then you're going to have some issues in medschool anyway.

Beyond that, are you under the impression that you're never going to have time constraints when making decisions about patient care? Point of fact: contemporary physicians are under unbelievable pressure to gather information quickly, make decisions about the saliency of gathered info, generate a differential, and make a determination about the course of treatment. In my opinion, it's perfectly valid to create a situation in which a test-taker feels pressure to read, sort, and draw conclusions from presented info over an abbreviated time period.

For as long as there have been standardized intelligence tests, there have been opponents who characterize them as unfair... and there is probably some element of truth to the criticism as there are data that show these tests don't always provide accurate, predictive measurements of potential in specific cases. However, there is a preponderance of longitudinal data that support the validity of intelligence tests in general, especially when they are used in conjunction with other measures. For example, with respect to the VR section of the MCAT, there is a ton of data that illuminates a solid correlation between an individual's VR score and Step 1 score. But there's an even better correlation when you add undergraduate GPA to the predictive model that already includes VR scores. Further, the data show and an indisputable positive correlation between VR score and Medschool performance. Again though, predicitive value is enhanced when you add undergraduate GPA to the model. If the purpose of using a test like the MCAT is to make predictions about which applicants are likely to be successful in medical school and on the boards, then the above mentioned correlations justify the inclusion of a verbal reasoning section on the MCAT. Although, the data also show that the VR score alone is not as predictively accurate as the VR score + undergrad GPA.

Based on the data, one can infer a likely connection between a test-taker's capacity to reason through a set of dense, difficult philosophical arguments and his/her facility with the content to be assimilated in medical school. Based on the facts, it seems fair to test verbal reasoning on the MCAT. Although perhaps I'm biased because VR was my best section on the exam 🙂
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I agree with your statements regarding the MCAT. You are absolutely right in pointing out that no test is meaningful in a vacuum. Everything must be taken in context--a truth that is very applicable in medicine.

The problem I see with admissions (for any kind of program) is that admissions committees have good accuracy, but marginal specificity. That is, the candidates they do determine to be good are almost always good, but they also are unable to identify a lot of good candidates--i.e. the candidates whose applications don't meet the committees' "numerical requirements".

I have personal experience with this, as I was a total screw-up in college and had a bear of a time getting into dental school (took me three attempts and more rejections along the way than I care to remember). Lo and behold, when I finally did get in (after completing a masters degree), I was a solid student grade-wise and scored very well on my national boards--better than 85% of U.S. dental students. Does it mean that dental school turned out to be easy enough for a goof-off to handle? No. Or that I'm a hidden genius? Hardly! It simply means that I was a good candidate that many dental schools did not identify. And it happens a lot.

Unfortunately, admissions committees don't have crystal balls. For the most part, all they do have at their disposal by which to evaluate candidates are numbers.
 
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KifsterDDS said:
I agree with your statements regarding the MCAT. You are absolutely right in pointing out that no test is meaningful in a vacuum. Everything must be taken in context--a truth that is very applicable in medicine.

The problem I see with admissions (for any kind of program) is that admissions committees have good accuracy, but marginal specificity. That is, the candidates they do determine to be good are almost always good, but they also are unable to identify a lot of good candidates--i.e. the candidates whose applications don't meet the committees' "numerical requirements".

I have personal experience with this, as I was a total screw-up in college and had a bear of a time getting into dental school (took me three attempts and more rejections along the way than I care to remember). Lo and behold, when I finally did get in (after completing a masters degree), I was a solid student grade-wise and scored very well on my national boards--better than 85% of U.S. dental students. Does it mean that dental school turned out to be easy enough for a goof-off to handle? No. Or that I'm a hidden genius? Hardly! It simply means that I was a good candidate that many dental schools did not identify. And it happens a lot.

Unfortunately, admissions committees don't have crystal balls. For the most part, all they do have at their disposal by which to evaluate candidates are numbers.
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No question... In my opinion, you're absolutely correct re: accuracy vs. specificity. I'm actually in the same boat, as I was a major screw up during undergrad and will probably not have the choices (if I'm lucky enough to get in at all) that I might have otherwise had. Adcoms do the best they can by including as many factors as possible during the admissions process so as to avoid leaving out good candidates, but it just comes down to a ? of alternatives. If adcoms can't objectively use #s in part to predict who will be sucessful what should they use instead?
 
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Corpus Callosum said:
You definitely are, and thats what your whole post boils down too, don't know what else to say when you consider the MCAT an inteligence tester,:laugh:
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If you're going to ignore all the data out there that show VR to be a valid, predictive measure of medschool/step 1 success, then you've got a much more significant issue w/ bias than I do... and that's what every one of your posts in this thread boils down to. Good luck w/ the admissions process 👍
 
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hawk126 said:
If you're going to ignore all the data out there that show VR to be a valid, predictive measure of medschool/step 1 success, then you've got a much more significant issue w/ bias than I do... and that's what every one of your posts in this thread boils down to. Good luck w/ the admissions process 👍
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You admitted to your own bias, I only confirmed it further,:laugh:,
plus what data and statistics indicate is all numbers and can be skewed in the eyes of the beholder, and does not represent an inteligence indicator and measure by any means.
 
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I would probably refer to the MCAT as unjust...if it were a dictator.

Fortunately, it's not killing millions of innocent women and men. (Maybe our health system *is* killing innocent people, but that's an entirely different argument altogether).

My point being that "unjust" is not context-appropriate.
 
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FloridaSun said:
I would probably refer to the MCAT as unjust...if it were a dictator.

Fortunately, it's not killing millions of innocent women and men. (Maybe our health system *is* killing innocent people, but that's an entirely different argument altogether).

My point being that "unjust" is not context-appropriate.
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who are you refering to as killing millions of innocent women and men?
and what is the relevance here?:laugh::laugh:, did you just wake up or something,:laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
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lololol CC is soo funny.

In all seriousness, if you think your lack of experience with English is hindering your verbal score, maybe you should focus on your English before taking the MCAT - instead of complaining about the MCAT
 
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Corpus Callosum said:
plus what data and statistics indicate is all numbers and can be skewed in the eyes of the beholder, and does not represent an inteligence indicator and measure by any means.
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I don't think hawk126 is trying to say that your verbal score is a predictor of intelligence. I think the point was that studies have shown there's a stronger correlation between your verbal score and Step 1 performance, compared to other measures (biological/physical science score, writing sample, GPA, etc.).

I would also love to see these studies, though.
 
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Blade28 said:
I don't think hawk126 is trying to say that your verbal score is a predictor of intelligence. I think the point was that studies have shown there's a stronger correlation between your verbal score and Step 1 performance, compared to other measures (biological/physical science score, writing sample, GPA, etc.).

I would also love to see these studies, though.
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I never said VR correlated more strongly with step 1 scores than PS or BS. What I said was VR showed a good positive correlation and an even better one when Undergraduate GPA is added to the predictive model. The correlations are good enough to provide justification (in my opinion, and the opinion of adcoms) for the inclusion of VR on the MCAT. VR is just another color on the adcom's pallette used to paint the most accurate possible picture of an applicant. Used in isolation, VR wouldn't be an ideal predictive tool just as BS nor PS would be great measures on their own. VR isn't the long poll in the application tent, but it's a perfectly reasonable measure when used with other values.
 
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Corpus Callosum said:
You admitted to your own bias, I only confirmed it further,:laugh:,
plus what data and statistics indicate is all numbers and can be skewed in the eyes of the beholder, and does not represent an inteligence indicator and measure by any means.
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Trump card right? Solid stuff, truly :laugh:. These icons are killer BTW.

As a sidebar, I'm curious about where you're from... and if the admissions process in this country is so "unjust", why not go to school in a country where you speak the language?
 
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hawk126 said:
Trump card right? Solid stuff, truly :laugh:. These icons are killer BTW.

As a sidebar, I'm curious about where you're from... and if the admissions process in this country is so "unjust", why not go to school in a country where you speak the language?
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In the event that my nationality has any relevance to this forum and the comments presented, I am from the Islamic Republic of Iran. As to why I don't go to med school in my country, the answer is; I was not qualified enough to get in there, admission is less challenging here,:laugh:
 
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Corpus Callosum said:
In the event that my nationality has any relevance to this forum and the comments presented, I am from the Islamic Republic of Iran. As to why I don't go to med school in my country, the answer is; I was not qualified enough to get in there, admission is less challenging here,:laugh:
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I would never presume to judge you as I don't know anything about your situation outside of the fact that you're a pilot from Iran who struggles with MCAT verbal. After reading Ahmadinajad's comments from Columbia University this week I confess, though, to being a little surptrised that you could stridently throw around words like "unjust" when discussing MCAT VR.

I'll take it a step further... If I went to Iran, or any other country in the world for that matter, and tried to gain entry to any competitive educational program (much less medical school) with your grasp of the native language, I'd be laughed out of an interview. The fact that you have a GREAT chance of getting in to medical school here (given that you're PS and BS scores are what you say they are) in spite of your apparent lacking facility with the language is proof positive of this country's borderline neurotic preoccupation with what is "fair" and "just". Food for thought.
 
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Corpus Callosum said:
You definitely are, and thats what your whole post boils down too, don't know what else to say when you consider the MCAT an inteligence tester,:laugh:
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I'm not saying he may not have some bias, but I think it's a little low to blow off everything that he says because he was honest enough, at the end of a well-reasoned and logical post, to acknowledge some bias. Look at what he said and how he reasoned and evaluate his arguments based on that. Looking for bias is important, but it's stupid to discredit a good argument that stands up by itself because of it.
 
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hawk126 said:
I would never presume to judge you as I don't know anything about your situation outside of the fact that you're a pilot from Iran who struggles with MCAT verbal. After reading Ahmadinajad's comments from Columbia University this week I confess, though, to being a little surptrised that you could stridently throw around words like "unjust" when discussing MCAT VR.

I'll take it a step further... If I went to Iran, or any other country in the world for that matter, and tried to gain entry to any competitive educational program (much less medical school) with your grasp of the native language, I'd be laughed out of an interview. The fact that you have a GREAT chance of getting in to medical school here (given that you're PS and BS scores are what you say they are) in spite of your apparent lacking facility with the language is proof positive of this country's borderline neurotic preoccupation with what is "fair" and "just". Food for thought.
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I really like this guy. One of the most reasoned/thoughtful voices in this cacophonic and ridiculous debate that I've been drawn in to.

Oh, and Corpus...I realize this may come out kind of condescending so apologizing for that beforehand...but seriously: your science scores are amazing, but the way you write on this forum (even given the few typos that we all make) definitely points you out as a non-native speaker who doesn't have the best grasp of English, and (as you've pointed out many times) the fact that English isn't your native language has hurt your verbal score.

I guess my point is that maybe you should stop practicing verbal and driving yourself nuts. Maybe just try to learn English grammar and spelling and syntax, get grounded in it, and then come back to verbal. It's the long way around, but it's attacking the root of the problem.

good luck.
 
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hawk126 said:
I never said VR correlated more strongly with step 1 scores than PS or BS. What I said was VR showed a good positive correlation and an even better one when Undergraduate GPA is added to the predictive model. The correlations are good enough to provide justification (in my opinion, and the opinion of adcoms) for the inclusion of VR on the MCAT.
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I stand corrected.
 
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Corpus Callosum said:
And I suppose you start telling patients about good and bad news via complex philosophical arguments pertaining to geology, rock formation, femminism, history of china,....:laugh::laugh::laugh:, if you consider the doctor to be on the non-science side more than the science one, you seem to have no clue of what medicine really is, "technician of science".:laugh::laugh:, I would rather have you said patient councling,:laugh::laugh::laugh:
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A physician can always refer back to a textbook before diagnosis. A physician cannot refer back to anything to empathize with a patient. It seems to me that you take a very mechanical, materialist approach to medicine, and that will undoubtedly prove detrimental to your patients. I couldn't care less about you or what your ambitions (or even my own) are. I care about my future patients.

I honestly worry for anyone under your care. But then again, I doubt the admissions process will go well for you. Recently, medical schools have been weeding out people exactly like you with tools such as Verbal Reasoning. Enjoy piloting.

Also, to assert that Iranian medical schools are in any dimension whatsoever better than American medical schools primarily because they are harder to get into is laughable. Simply laughable. There are only 46 medical schools in Iran, compared to the 126 American allopathic and 26 osteopathic medical schools, and not a single one of them (or any University in Iran, for that matter) is ranked with the ARWU. Fallacious argumentation doesn't help on the VR either.
 
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robbiekins said:
A physician can always refer back to a textbook before diagnosis. A physician cannot refer back to anything to empathize with a patient. It seems to me that you take a very mechanical, materialist approach to medicine, and that will undoubtedly prove detrimental to your patients. I couldn't care less about you or what your ambitions (or even my own) are. I care about my future patients.

I honestly worry for anyone under your care. But then again, I doubt the admissions process will go well for you. Recently, medical schools have been weeding out people exactly like you with tools such as Verbal Reasoning. Enjoy piloting.

Also, to assert that Iranian medical schools are in any dimension whatsoever better than American medical schools primarily because they are harder to get into is laughable. Simply laughable. There are only 46 medical schools in Iran, compared to the 126 American allopathic and 26 osteopathic medical schools, and not a single one of them (or any University in Iran, for that matter) is ranked with the ARWU. Fallacious argumentation doesn't help on the VR either.
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No one made the comparison which medical schools were better, those are assertions you are creating by trying to put words in my mouth, I said getting in is more difficult, yes, and please do not argue and respond to that simply because you are not there. Secondly, if you are trying to say that my country does not produce excellent and competent doctors, that is pathetic and ludicrous. As for enjoying flying, yes I always do, and it will always be my primary career even if I went to medical school.
As for admissions, let me inform you that I was already admitted to a medical school's PhD program, the question remains is whether I will still feel like going through the MD program, I assure you Wayne State would LOVE to have one of their PhD students go for an MD in their school. It raises their ranking and numbers, and my patients, rest assured will be in a better shape than your patients,:laugh::laugh::laugh:, judging from your attitude.
 
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