Any opinions appreciated...

[tatabox80]

Hello there everyone,
I have decided that fm is for me and have finished all of my residency interviews. I have my top two narrowed down, but I'm kind of 50/50 on which program I like better. Here's the run down of pros/cons.

Program 1
Pros- have done a number of rotations at this hospital and most of my experiences have been phenomenal.
-brand new family practice center
-other programs in hospital (IM, surgery, ob, etc.) are strong
-residents are happy
-night float system in place, the only places you rotate through that have 30 hour call are surgery and ob
-awesome call rooms....not like it's that big of a deal

Cons-although the residents were nice, I didn't feel like I connected with them
-One of the fm interns I worked with is a huge a$$hole (and it's a small program)
-faculty seemed distant, although were overall nice
-when I rotated through program didn't really get a feel that really wanted me to come there
-fm center really only treats urban indigent population, seems to be inefficiently run

Program 2

Pros- Family medicine faculty are phenomenal, and very nurturing.
-Strong program director that really stands up for residents
-Happy residents
-efficiently run fm center that has a wide variety of patients of all socioeconomic groups

Cons-I have done rotations here during my 3rd year and was treated poorly as a student (OB) (however residents say you are treated well as a resident)
-resident lounge kinda stinks....(minor issue)
-ACtually these are the only big cons, but my 3rd year experiences were so bad I thought about not even applying to this program, so this makes is a big con.

Other stuff such as benefits, salary, etc are pretty equal. I go back and forth everyday...I don't feel that I can go wrong at either place, but it's still annoying. Any input is appreciated.

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[Faebinder]

Hello there everyone,
I have decided that fm is for me and have finished all of my residency interviews. I have my top two narrowed down, but I'm kind of 50/50 on which program I like better. Here's the run down of pros/cons.

Program 1
Pros- have done a number of rotations at this hospital and most of my experiences have been phenomenal.
-brand new family practice center
-other programs in hospital (IM, surgery, ob, etc.) are strong
-residents are happy
-night float system in place, the only places you rotate through that have 30 hour call are surgery and ob
-awesome call rooms....not like it's that big of a deal

Cons-although the residents were nice, I didn't feel like I connected with them
-One of the fm interns I worked with is a huge a$$hole (and it's a small program)
-faculty seemed distant, although were overall nice
-when I rotated through program didn't really get a feel that really wanted me to come there
-fm center really only treats urban indigent population, seems to be inefficiently run

Program 2

Pros- Family medicine faculty are phenomenal, and very nurturing.
-Strong program director that really stands up for residents
-Happy residents
-efficiently run fm center that has a wide variety of patients of all socioeconomic groups

Cons-I have done rotations here during my 3rd year and was treated poorly as a student (OB) (however residents say you are treated well as a resident)
-resident lounge kinda stinks....(minor issue)
-ACtually these are the only big cons, but my 3rd year experiences were so bad I thought about not even applying to this program, so this makes is a big con.

Other stuff such as benefits, salary, etc are pretty equal. I go back and forth everyday...I don't feel that I can go wrong at either place, but it's still annoying. Any input is appreciated.

Program 1 seems to win slightly to me....

 

[iatrosB]

Program 1 seems to win slightly to me....

agreed

 

[elizabeth5863]

Hello there everyone,
I have decided that fm is for me and have finished all of my residency interviews. I have my top two narrowed down, but I'm kind of 50/50 on which program I like better. Here's the run down of pros/cons.

Program 1
Pros- have done a number of rotations at this hospital and most of my experiences have been phenomenal.
-brand new family practice center
-other programs in hospital (IM, surgery, ob, etc.) are strong
-residents are happy
-night float system in place, the only places you rotate through that have 30 hour call are surgery and ob
-awesome call rooms....not like it's that big of a deal

Cons-although the residents were nice, I didn't feel like I connected with them
-One of the fm interns I worked with is a huge a$$hole (and it's a small program)
-faculty seemed distant, although were overall nice
-when I rotated through program didn't really get a feel that really wanted me to come there
-fm center really only treats urban indigent population, seems to be inefficiently run

Program 2

Pros- Family medicine faculty are phenomenal, and very nurturing.
-Strong program director that really stands up for residents
-Happy residents
-efficiently run fm center that has a wide variety of patients of all socioeconomic groups

Cons-I have done rotations here during my 3rd year and was treated poorly as a student (OB) (however residents say you are treated well as a resident)
-resident lounge kinda stinks....(minor issue)
-ACtually these are the only big cons, but my 3rd year experiences were so bad I thought about not even applying to this program, so this makes is a big con.

Other stuff such as benefits, salary, etc are pretty equal. I go back and forth everyday...I don't feel that I can go wrong at either place, but it's still annoying. Any input is appreciated.

Program 2 sounds better to me currently. But you didn't mention whether or not you felt like you connected with the residents. No matter how strong a program is or how good faculty is, if you don't get along with the residents, you might become unhappy at that program.

Do you feel like you connected with the residents at Program 2? If it's the same degree of connectedness with the residents at Program 1, I would choose program 1 then.

The other problem is... who knows how your fellow PGY-1s will be like? They could also turn out to be a fun, awesome group at Program 1.

 

[deleted87716]

Program 1 sounds tempting on the surface, but the serious cons you listed should definitely make you think long and hard about whether or not its beauty is only skin deep.

 

[tatabox80]

I feel like I connected more with the residents at program #2, they seem more varied. Most of the residents at program 1 were married or pregnant or had a wife who was pregnant so I felt a little left out when it came to lunch time conversation. Overall they were nice though. I'm hoping that I will meet some potential pgy1's at the up coming second look weekends. It's funny because in October I was dead set on program 1, but after the above mentioned cons, I'm not so sure. Also, I never thought in a million years I would like program 2, but I was pleasantly surprised.

Program 1 sounds tempting on the surface, but the serious cons you listed should definitely make you think long and hard about whether or not its beauty is only skin deep.

 

[drwatson]

Sounds like you are placing *a lot* of stock in your poor experience at Program 2 as a third year. Are you sure it was your experience there? Did other classmates have a similarly poor experience? Or was it just "one of those months" for you (or the program)

Were you really bothered by something specific though?

 

[Faebinder]

You have to remember that friendship doesnt build over night.. so i would semi ignore that feeling.

Likewise with the attendings.... again.. i did say slightly...

Oncall room status shouldnt matter much....

Treated crappy as a student should matter. Crappiness travels down hill.

 

[tatabox80]

Sounds like you are placing *a lot* of stock in your poor experience at Program 2 as a third year. Are you sure it was your experience there? Did other classmates have a similarly poor experience? Or was it just "one of those months" for you (or the program)

Were you really bothered by something specific though?

Unfortunately numerous students had a bad experience. However, a number of residents who were students and did ob at this particular hospital and said it was a complete 180 as an intern. Some of the residents were just very mean, they scutted you out, no one cared if you learned, you worked your butt off and weren't appreciated and in the end a large percentage of students who rotated through there ended up failing their shelf copy. I think the worst thing about it was that it was my very first rotation, I had a broken ankle, and i was probably with some of the most inpatient and non understanding residents I had ever worked with. I also had the nightmarish experience of being accused of violating hippa by a patient looking for a lawsuit....she was actually lying and all of the residents assumed she was being honest. However, after I talked with them everything was fine, but it was a traumatic experience. That's the short version of my experience, but regardless, it was terrible and set a bad tone for my 3rd year.

 

[NDMD]

I'm hoping that I will meet some potential pgy1's at the up coming second look weekends.

After reading your initial post, the first thing that popped into my mind was second look. I think it's a great idea to take advantage of that and see who else is interested in the program. That could be the deciding factor.

 

[marshmallows]

After reading your initial post, the first thing that popped into my mind was second look. I think it's a great idea to take advantage of that and see who else is interested in the program. That could be the deciding factor.

def a second look would help. and I would ask some of the residents, those concerns, and how it is for intern year and how it improved or not.
bring it up with them for sure. I would. But I wouldnt let a bad OB 3rd year experience set the tone for the residency, those are different times. But I would be careful to see how the upper levels and other specialties treated the FM interns. That's what's important to you now.
good luck.

 

[tatabox80]

def a second look would help. and I would ask some of the residents, those concerns, and how it is for intern year and how it improved or not.
bring it up with them for sure. I would. But I wouldnt let a bad OB 3rd year experience set the tone for the residency, those are different times. But I would be careful to see how the upper levels and other specialties treated the FM interns. That's what's important to you now.
good luck.

The thing that was refreshing about program 2 was that I know a couple of residents who did ob at that hospital as a student. Their experiences were similar to mine as far as the residents were concerned. The residents stated that ob was one of their favorite rotations as interns but one of their least favorite as students. I also addressed my concern with the program director, both the director and the other fm faculty stated that the program director for ob is aware of the ongoing problem and is ranking residents differently....so it sounds like things are on the the up and up. However, my experiences are still my own, and I still sometimes have trouble believing that it will be drastically different.

 

[mamadoc]

I thought program 2 sounded better, actually. "Happy residents" is an important criterion. Also, an early-third-year bad experience (especially on OB!! Notoriously malignant service almost everywhere!!) shouldn't be blown out of proportion when you're trying to weight your pros and cons.

If I am reading your descriptions correctly, you're describing two opposed programs. On your second looks, I'd look very carefully at how those work to get a better sense of how residents get along within the different departments.

You describe the clinic in program 1 as poorly organized. I gotta tell you that learning how to do clinic is HUGE. I am fortunate to be in a well-run clinic where our residents, on graduation, are unanimous in their opinions that they are well-prepared for independent practice. If program 1's program is known among employers for NOT doing a good job at preparing you for practice, you may find that your employment eligibility takes a bit of a hit.

So here's another thing to ask on your second looks: how do residents do at finding jobs after graduation?

Good luck!

 

[tatabox80]

I thought program 2 sounded better, actually. "Happy residents" is an important criterion. Also, an early-third-year bad experience (especially on OB!! Notoriously malignant service almost everywhere!!) shouldn't be blown out of proportion when you're trying to weight your pros and cons.

If I am reading your descriptions correctly, you're describing two opposed programs. On your second looks, I'd look very carefully at how those work to get a better sense of how residents get along within the different departments.

You describe the clinic in program 1 as poorly organized. I gotta tell you that learning how to do clinic is HUGE. I am fortunate to be in a well-run clinic where our residents, on graduation, are unanimous in their opinions that they are well-prepared for independent practice. If program 1's program is known among employers for NOT doing a good job at preparing you for practice, you may find that your employment eligibility takes a bit of a hit.

So here's another thing to ask on your second looks: how do residents do at finding jobs after graduation?

Good luck!

Yes, they are both at opposed programs and after doing rotations at both hospitals as a student I feel that the residents are treated very well. They are both community hospitals. Residents after graduation have no trouble finding jobs after graduation.

 

[sophiejane]

I think the most valuable thing would be to really decide what "pro" and "con" means to you. On several of them, you seemed unsure...

For me, how nice or new the facilities are, including call rooms, is a non-issue unless they are really deficient. I have seen some older clinics that are better run and better equipped than some shiny new ones.

Happy residents is huge. Unhappy residents is even huger-er.

I'd personally put indigent patient population in the "pro" column. They are generally sicker, have multiple issues, and better to learn from.

Per your unhappy experience, I hate to generalize, but a lot of students are treated poorly on OBGYN. It's very high stress, the residents are not always as confident as they'd like to be, and I can imagine that having students does contribute to some of that stress. It's no excuse for being nasty, I just think you should consider how much importance you are putting on that experience.

I hear people talk of making grids and spreadsheets to quantify their pros and cons...then of rearranging the values when they don't get the answer they wanted!

Best of luck...I feel your PAIN right now!

 

[F@milyMed]

I totally agree with Sophie's opening statement there. I too am on the interview trail (trying to switch from my categorical surgery program) and am having a hard time figuring out my rank order……………....again.

I really think you will hear program adjectives being thrown around carelessly, like camaraderie, night float, research, fellowships and the best one lately "opposed vs. unopposed.....BUT THAT MEANS NOTHING TO ME!!! In fact, I prefer an ooposed program with hospitalists so I dont get paged in the middle of the nigh a millon times for trivial things. What I am trying to say...and basically am reiterating Sophie's point.............the single most important thing to determine is what YOU are looking for in a program. Hey, some people are genuinely looking for high salary, few and easy calls and lots of sick days...and you know what....that is what THIER pro's/con's list should look like. I don't necessarily agree with having those characteristics as a top ranking priority but who cares.

So ...think hard...because were gonna be there for 3 long years.....what is important to YOU!

Sounds like both programs are solid, and I bet you won't go wrong ending up at either one. Nevertheless, which one should get the #1 rank vs. the #2, is a BIG decision that will most likely affect the rest of your life.

The only variable that is out of OUR control at this point is WHERE ARE THEY GONNA RANK US!

Good luck

 

[tatabox80]

I totally agree with Sophie’s opening statement there. I too am on the interview trail (trying to switch from my categorical surgery program) and am having a hard time figuring out my rank order……………....again.

I really think you will hear program adjectives being thrown around carelessly, like camaraderie, night float, research, fellowships and the best one lately "opposed vs. unopposed.....BUT THAT MEANS NOTHING TO ME!!! In fact, I prefer an ooposed program with hospitalists so I dont get paged in the middle of the nigh a millon times for trivial things. What I am trying to say...and basically am reiterating Sophie's point.............the single most important thing to determine is what YOU are looking for in a program. Hey, some people are genuinely looking for high salary, few and easy calls and lots of sick days...and you know what....that is what THIER pro's/con's list should look like. I don't necessarily agree with having those characteristics as a top ranking priority but who cares.

So ...think hard...because were gonna be there for 3 long years.....what is important to YOU!

Sounds like both programs are solid, and I bet you won't go wrong ending up at either one. Nevertheless, which one should get the #1 rank vs. the #2, is a BIG decision that will most likely affect the rest of your life.

The only variable that is out of OUR control at this point is WHERE ARE THEY GONNA RANK US!

Good luck

Well.....duh. All of the above mentioned things are stuff that I personally find pros and cons....some are bigger pros/cons than others. There are other things about each program that could be considered pros/cons by other applicants, however I did not mention them in my post. By the way what's the deal with the caps?....it's like you're yelling for some reason. The reason I am asking is not to have people tell me what's important to me, or where to go to residency, but rather, people can sometimes offer different perspectives that you've never thought of before, and it can be quite helpful...but anyways, I digress, I spent a day working with program #2 today. I was really impressed with the faculty again today. Since I have done a complete fm sub-I at program 1 I did not feel the need to revisit. Both programs have official "Second look" functions coming up where I can mingle with the residents....I think shortly after that I will know. Right now Program 2 is winning by a hair. Hopefully things are becoming clearer to the rest of you in regards to program ranking....by the way, when is our rank order list due??

 

[deleted87716]

by the way, when is our rank order list due??

You can start submitting ROLs at noon (EST) on 1/15/07. The deadline is 9:00pm (EST) on 2/21/07. Source: http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/yearly.html

 

[chibihamsta]

http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/yearly.html

Here is a list of important dates...

EDIT: Kent you beat me by 2 minutes!!

 

[deleted87716]

Kent you beat me by 2 minutes!!

HA! To the victor go the spoils.

Wait...you mean there aren't any spoils? @%*#!

 

[tatabox80]

Ok, so I have gotten some more information about the programs. Well, something raised my eye brows a little about program 2. Well I did a second look and when I asked the same questions I did when I interviewed...I asked about call and how they are treated by different depts. nurses, etc. Well, I think they sugar coated things a bit on interview day....they also neglected to mention that they are doubling the calls for interns next year, I only got this info after prying it out of a resident...it also seemed that some of the residents were not as happy as I once perceived. Hmmm, this is quite annoying...

 

[sophiejane]

Ok, so I have gotten some more information about the programs. Well, something raised my eye brows a little about program 2. Well I did a second look and when I asked the same questions I did when I interviewed...I asked about call and how they are treated by different depts. nurses, etc. Well, I think they sugar coated things a bit on interview day....they also neglected to mention that they are doubling the calls for interns next year, I only got this info after prying it out of a resident...it also seemed that some of the residents were not as happy as I once perceived. Hmmm, this is quite annoying...

I was for program 1 from the start, anyhow.

Mostly because your pros on that program were things I also value, but the cons weren't really that bad...like I said, indigent population=wide variety of pathology. Plus you had great experiences there as a student.

 

[tatabox80]

I was for program 1 from the start, anyhow.

Mostly because your pros on that program were things I also value, but the cons weren't really that bad...like I said, indigent population=wide variety of pathology. Plus you had great experiences there as a student.

Yeah, I think one of the major cons was the encounter I had with one of program 1's residents. He acted like a butt-head when we did a rotation together....that on top of feeling that the faculty seemed distant made me consider other programs. Now that I think about it having distant faculty is more of a "neutral" than a con, because I guess you can become closer with people as you go along.