Any schools that care little about E.C.'s?

[tdod]

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So, I love the academic stuff but honestly have not enjoyed any of the E.C.'s I've done. Are there any schools that are happy w/ cookie-cutter E.C.'s (some clinical shadowing, some volunteering, and a year of research) as long as you have a good GPA/MCAT?

Specifically, my E.C.'s consist of, so far, 1 year of nursing home volunteering (I basically talked with the residents for 2 hours a week) and currently I volunteer at a clinic that serves homeless people. I want to do good, but every organization I volunteer with is already exploding with other volunteers who are qualified to fill the same positions.

Essentially, I want to acquire a rare skill set and then use it to help others, not the other way around.

 

[ghboyd25]

What EC's have you done? Maybe you're not doing the right stuff...

 

[Goro]

Given 1000 applicants at any given school, and they all have your MCAT and GPA, which ones do you think will they accept? The cookie cutters who merely went through a check list, or the applicants who worked at a hospice and helped dying people? Or in a nursing home and wheeled people around in a wheelchair? Or who helped out with Habitat for Humanity? or organized an AIDS walk? or was a counselor at a summer camp for sick kids? or who read to poor kids at the Library? or were a big Brother/Sister? Or went on a medical mission?


We AdComs are looking for people who will make good doctors, not merely good medical students. Medicine is a calling, and admission to medical school is not a reward for being smart or getting good grades. We want to see altruistic/humanistic applicants.

So, I love the academic stuff but honestly have not enjoyed any of the E.C.'s I've done. Are there any schools that are happy w/ cookie-cutter E.C.'s (some clinical shadowing, some volunteering, and a year of research) as long as you have a good GPA/MCAT?

 

[music2doc]

So, I love the academic stuff but honestly have not enjoyed any of the E.C.'s I've done. Are there any schools that are happy w/ cookie-cutter E.C.'s (some clinical shadowing, some volunteering, and a year of research) as long as you have a good GPA/MCAT?

Sure, WashU...if you have a perfect GPA and a 40 MCAT.

 

[deleted407021]

We AdComs are looking for people who will make good doctors, not merely good medical students. Medicine is a calling, and admission to medical school is not a reward for being smart or getting good grades. We want to see altruistic/humanistic applicants.

OP, do you have these qualities? Tell us more about the volunteering/working with other people type activities you have done so far. We can help you figure out what you might like to try or the reasons behind your current dislike of them.

 

[StephanieZ]

Given 1000 applicants at any given school, and they all have your MCAT and GPA, which ones do you think will they accept? The cookie cutters who merely went through a check list, or the applicants who worked at a hospice and helped dying people? Or in a nursing home and wheeled people around in a wheelchair? Or who helped out with Habitat for Humanity? or organized an AIDS walk? or was a counselor at a summer camp for sick kids? or who read to poor kids at the Library? or were a big Brother/Sister? Or went on a medical mission?


We AdComs are looking for people who will make good doctors, not merely good medical students. Medicine is a calling, and admission to medical school is not a reward for being smart or getting good grades. We want to see altruistic/humanistic applicants.

I'm sorry, I agree with the spirit of altruism, but the reality is that any and all of these ECs can and have been done for the sole purpose of medical school admission. Students know adcoms want to see altruism and for many of them these activities are meaningless box-checking. I don't have the answer, but I don't feel like you can judge who will make the best future doctors by who managed to rack up the most humanitarian activities and then proceeded to spin them into quaint, tear-jerking anecdotes that make you feel gooey inside.

 

[TheBossDoctor]

I'm sorry, I agree with the spirit of altruism, but the reality is that any and all of these ECs can and have been done for the sole purpose of medical school admission. Students know adcoms want to see altruism and for many of them these activities are meaningless box-checking. I don't have the answer, but I don't feel like you can judge who will make the best future doctors by who managed to rack up the most humanitarian activities and then proceeded to spin them into quaint, tear-jerking anecdotes that make you feel gooey inside.

I think that's where essays/interviews come into play. If you only did something because you wanted to boost your application, it'll be hard to write about how something was meaningful, and it'll be even harder to talk about it enthusiastically during interviews. Sure, a couple people are really good at BSing, but for most people, I'm sure ADCOMS can tell who did something because they really wanted to vs who just did it for their application. They see 1000s of apps so it isn't hard to differentiate between those two groups.

 

[freakingoutabit]

duplicate post

 

[freakingoutabit]

I think that's where essays/interviews come into play. If you only did something because you wanted to boost your application, it'll be hard to write about how something was meaningful, and it'll be even harder to talk about it enthusiastically during interviews. Sure, a couple people are really good at BSing, but for most people, I'm sure ADCOMS can tell who did something because they really wanted to vs who just did it for their application. They see 1000s of apps so it isn't hard to differentiate between those two groups.

Agree. If you drove cancer patients to the hospital every week for a year and all you can say is "It was rewarding," then you probably did it to boost your applications. If you can talk about meaningful conversations with patients you got to know and how difficult it was to see patients get sicker and sicker each week, then (even if you did it in part to boost your application) you probably care about other people and enjoy helping when you can.

Also, there are many applicants who decide to apply later in college or later in life. For those applicants, looking at their activities that pre-date their decision to go to med school would be a decent indicator of their character. I'm sure some of them start volunteering like mad around the time that they register for Chem I and Physics I, but I bet a small percentage of them have a long history of volunteer work. That small percentage has earned the right to stand out from the crowd.

 

[The Bunk]

Agree. If you drove cancer patients to the hospital every week for a year and all you can say is "It was rewarding," then you probably did it to boost your applications. If you can talk about meaningful conversations with patients you got to know and how difficult it was to see patients get sicker and sicker each week, then (even if you did it in part to boost your application) you probably care about other people and enjoy helping when you can.

Also, there are many applicants who decide to apply later in college or later in life. For those applicants, looking at their activities that pre-date their decision to go to med school would be a decent indicator of their character. I'm sure some of them start volunteering like mad around the time that they register for Chem I and Physics I, but I bet a small percentage of them have a long history of volunteer work. That small percentage has earned the right to stand out from the crowd.

I don't think you can really judge an applicant's whole character based whether or not they've been doing volunteer work all along. If someone has always been really involved in charity, then yes. Those people should get a ton of credit. But I think it would be a mistake to assume that other people are insincere about helping people.

 

[freakingoutabit]

I don't think you can really judge an applicant's whole character based whether or not they've been doing volunteer work all along. If someone has always been really involved in charity, then yes. Those people should get a ton of credit. But I think it would be a mistake to assume that other people are insincere about helping people.

Absolutely! I don't think most people are insincere about wanting to help others, and volunteering often begets more volunteering. I only mean that people who have gone above and beyond should get the credit they're due. People are quick to dismiss a pre-med's volunteer efforts as resume-padding, and that's often patently untrue.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Absolutely! I don't think most people are insincere about wanting to help others, and volunteering often begets more volunteering. I only mean that people who have gone above and beyond should get the credit they're due. People are quick to dismiss a pre-med's volunteer efforts as resume-padding, and that's often patently untrue.

People are quick to dismiss it for a reason. As has been mentioned, altruism itself is a rare quality in humans. Yet in pre-meds, just about everyone has it. 🙄

If you look in the WAMC threads, "above averge" applicants will typically have far more volunteering than those who genuinely do it. So if all of hese ZERO to Mother Teresa applicants rack up so many hours doing long laundry-lists of activities, then why do we not recognize them posititviely for these efforts? Why aren't we giving pre-meds the Nobel Peace Prize based on all the hours they do? Why do hospital staff tret pre-med volunteers like garbage, while giving elderly volunteers lots of respect?

Well their attitude says it all. This is why pre-meds have such a horrible reputation, which is sad considering the ridiculously long number of hours pre-meds spent volunteering (more like "volunfaking") over so many different activities. 🙁

 

[freakingoutabit]

People are quick to dismiss it for a reason. As has been mentioned, altruism itself is a rare quality in humans. Yet in pre-meds, just about everyone has it. 🙄

If you look in the WAMC threads, "above averge" applicants will typically have far more volunteering than those who genuinely do it. So if all of hese ZERO to Mother Teresa applicants rack up so many hours doing long laundry-lists of activities, then why do we not recognize them posititviely for these efforts? Why aren't we giving pre-meds the Nobel Peace Prize based on all the hours they do? Why do hospital staff tret pre-med volunteers like garbage, while giving elderly volunteers lots of respect?

Well their attitude says it all. This is why pre-meds have such a horrible reputation, which is sad considering the ridiculously long number of hours pre-meds spent volunteering (more like "volunfaking") over so many different activities. 🙁

I completely agree that there are some phony pre-meds who are interested only in money and prestige and will do whatever it takes to get it. There are also pre-meds who genuinely love helping other people and want a career of doing just that. I know examples of both, and I'd imagine that most applicants fall somewhere in between. I trust that ADCOMs can typically tell the difference between the two extremes.

Also, maybe you and I define "altruism" very differently, but I don't think it's some rare quality. I think altruism falls on a spectrum, like most personality traits, with a small percentage being completely giving, a small percentage being completely selfish, and most people somewhere in the middle.

 

[Planes2Doc]

I completely agree that there are some phony pre-meds who are interested only in money and prestige and will do whatever it takes to get it. There are also pre-meds who genuinely love helping other people and want a career of doing just that. I know examples of both, and I'd imagine that most applicants fall somewhere in between. I trust that ADCOMs can typically tell the difference between the two extremes.

Also, maybe you and I define "altruism" very differently, but I don't think it's some rare quality. I think altruism falls on a spectrum, like most personality traits, with a small percentage being completely giving, a small percentage being completely selfish, and most people somewhere in the middle.

You're correct, we do define it differently. In fact, I believe that I'm only defining it from the arbitrary perspective of ADCOMs. ADCOMs apparently view "altruism" as performing free labor of some sort. Interestingly, when I volunteered at my hospital (I was one of the only pre-meds, everyone else was an adult/elderly), I met volunteers who were very nice, while also meeting some who were very mean people and would never want them as a physician. Since the majority of volunteers were there by choice, it shows you that just because you volunteer doesn't mean that you're a great person.

Throughout my life, I have met many people. I have always judged them by their personality traits. I've met some incredible people that would do anything to go out of their way to help you. Genuinely amazing people that you would love to be with. But these people usually spent their weekends going out with friends or family. They didn't spend them ladling soup bowls at soup kitchens or at the hospital cleaning beds. No one judged anyone by the number of activities or the number of hours they spent doing volunteer work.

So why do ADCOMs feel such a need to judge everyone based on volunteer work? Of course they don't personally know applicants, so what else can they do? But staking everything on one's volunteer commitments doesn't say much. As you say, if ADCOMs were so good at judging applicants' true intentions, then we would not have anymore underserved populations because every year you have tons of pre-meds just dying to help the poor. Yet as medical students, they gun for ROADS residencies. Believe it or not, the sporadic non-clinical volunteer I work I did was very fulfilling and tons of fun. I would do it now if I weren't so busy. My pre-med advisor told me that I needed a longer weekly commitment though, so I guess doing only that made me come off as a selfish bastard.

Well then, it's kind of flawed as to how ADCOMs view applicants. If they were so "good" at picking them, then there would be no need for the 2015 MCAT as everyone would be surprised with doctors because they all love helping everyone and would want to work for free or something close to that. Plus ADCOMs likely would not have embarrassingly admitted Philip Markoff as a medical student in the first place. After all, even murderers meet their fiancees while volunteering at the hospital!

 

[volcomx]

Why isn't altruism a requirement for biology PhD programs? Why don't applicants have to show their dedication to humanity through hundreds of hours of volunteering? The work of a biologist (if they can find any) is underpaid, tedious, and long.

What about a surgeon at the top of their field. What if she's the best neurosurgeon their ever was. She dedicates her life to the job. Her patients have the best outcomes. Should we criticize her if we knew she was actually in it for the prestige?

I get the importance of altruism. I get that medical schools want to look for it in their applicants, and I agree that they should. In the ideal world, all doctors would be humanitarians and brilliant masters of their craft. The world is not ideal. I'd rather have an arrogant master neurosurgeon than an compassionate incompetent neurosurgeon.

I wouldn't say I'm selfish, but I'm also not the ideal humanitarian. I have some volunteering on my app. It's not extraordinary, but I do it in my free time and it is sincere and meaningful. Yet some people on this thread suggest that it "shouldn't count" because it isn't "above and beyond." Lol. There isn't enough hours in the day for a full time job, full time volunteering, full time family, full time friends, full time research...you get the point.

 

[freakingoutabit]

Why isn't altruism a requirement for biology PhD programs? Why don't applicants have to show their dedication to humanity through hundreds of hours of volunteering? The work of a biologist (if they can find any) is underpaid, tedious, and long.

Biologists and physicians have very different relationships with the general public.

I wouldn't say I'm selfish, but I'm also not the ideal humanitarian. I have some volunteering on my app. It's not extraordinary, but I do it in my free time and it is sincere and meaningful. Yet some people on this thread suggest that it "shouldn't count" because it isn't "above and beyond." Lol. There isn't enough hours in the day for a full time job, full time volunteering, full time family, full time friends, full time research...you get the point.

I never said that. I said that volunteering should be a factor (1 factor of many) because there are some applicants who have dedicated a good portion of their lives to volunteer work, and that's a valid and important accomplishment that should be recognized. Med schools obviously want brilliant doctors, but there's nothing wrong with making an effort to include altruistic people too, particularly given the shortage of primary care doctors in underserved areas. Considering the huge number of qualified applicants, those two goals are not mutually exclusive.

Given two applicants with great MCAT scores and grades, I think it's perfectly reasonable to choose the applicant who spent a summer volunteering at the Boys & Girls Club every day over the applicant who spent a summer by the pool. THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING.

 

[freakingoutabit]

You're correct, we do define it differently. In fact, I believe that I'm only defining it from the arbitrary perspective of ADCOMs. ADCOMs apparently view "altruism" as performing free labor of some sort. Interestingly, when I volunteered at my hospital (I was one of the only pre-meds, everyone else was an adult/elderly), I met volunteers who were very nice, while also meeting some who were very mean people and would never want them as a physician. Since the majority of volunteers were there by choice, it shows you that just because you volunteer doesn't mean that you're a great person.

Throughout my life, I have met many people. I have always judged them by their personality traits. I've met some incredible people that would do anything to go out of their way to help you. Genuinely amazing people that you would love to be with. But these people usually spent their weekends going out with friends or family. They didn't spend them ladling soup bowls at soup kitchens or at the hospital cleaning beds. No one judged anyone by the number of activities or the number of hours they spent doing volunteer work.

So why do ADCOMs feel such a need to judge everyone based on volunteer work? Of course they don't personally know applicants, so what else can they do? But staking everything on one's volunteer commitments doesn't say much. As you say, if ADCOMs were so good at judging applicants' true intentions, then we would not have anymore underserved populations because every year you have tons of pre-meds just dying to help the poor. Yet as medical students, they gun for ROADS residencies. Believe it or not, the sporadic non-clinical volunteer I work I did was very fulfilling and tons of fun. I would do it now if I weren't so busy. My pre-med advisor told me that I needed a longer weekly commitment though, so I guess doing only that made me come off as a selfish bastard.

Well then, it's kind of flawed as to how ADCOMs view applicants. If they were so "good" at picking them, then there would be no need for the 2015 MCAT as everyone would be surprised with doctors because they all love helping everyone and would want to work for free or something close to that. Plus ADCOMs likely would not have embarrassingly admitted Philip Markoff as a medical student in the first place. After all, even murderers meet their fiancees while volunteering at the hospital!

To whom? To me? I don't think anyone is a selfish bastard for volunteering. That's ridiculous. I applaud people who do amazing things. So do ADCOMs. There's nothing wrong with that.

I agree, the process is flawed, though I haven't read any suggestions for what criterion would work better in attempting to gauge an applicant's compassion and generosity.

I don't understand why people are getting so defensive. I'm not criticizing you guys. I'm sure you're all lovely, kind people. Simply saying that very altruistic people possess qualities that are well-suited for medicine and deserve credit for their work isn't an insult to anyone else. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma)

 

[Planes2Doc]

To whom? To me? I don't think anyone is a selfish bastard for volunteering. That's ridiculous. I applaud people who do amazing things. So do ADCOMs. There's nothing wrong with that.

I agree, the process is flawed, though I haven't read any suggestions for what criterion would work better in attempting to gauge an applicant's compassion and generosity.

I don't understand why people are getting so defensive. I'm not criticizing you guys. I'm sure you're all lovely, kind people. Simply saying that very altruistic people possess qualities that are well-suited for medicine and deserve credit for their work isn't an insult to anyone else. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma)

I wasn't directing any of this at you, so I hope you weren't taking anything personally! 🙂

I just think the process is flawed. I think I'm pretty passionate about this topic because I'm just annoyed with the fakeness of the overall majority (which sucks for the people who are actually genuine), plus the hoops ADCOMs expect pre-meds to jump through before embarking on the most self-sacrificial journey of their lives. It's just not right.

 

[freakingoutabit]

I wasn't directing any of this at you, so I hope you weren't taking anything personally! 🙂

I just think the process is flawed. I think I'm pretty passionate about this topic because I'm just annoyed with the fakeness of the overall majority (which sucks for the people who are actually genuine), plus the hoops ADCOMs expect pre-meds to jump through before embarking on the most self-sacrificial journey of their lives. It's just not right.

No problem. 🙂

I've only been a pre-med for a year and a half, and I completely agree with you that an alarmingly large percentage of them really suck. Arrogant, smarmy, neurotic. It's been a bit of culture shock. They make lawyers seem sincere. LAWYERS.

 

[The Bunk]

I wasn't directing any of this at you, so I hope you weren't taking anything personally! 🙂

I just think the process is flawed. I think I'm pretty passionate about this topic because I'm just annoyed with the fakeness of the overall majority (which sucks for the people who are actually genuine), plus the hoops ADCOMs expect pre-meds to jump through before embarking on the most self-sacrificial journey of their lives. It's just not right.

I just don't how the process could be improved, though. Even if it's not a perfect system, at least some of the phonies will get weeded out.

No problem. 🙂

I've only been a pre-med for a year and a half, and I completely agree with you that an alarmingly large percentage of them really suck. Arrogant, smarmy, neurotic. It's been a bit of culture shock. They make lawyers seem sincere. LAWYERS.

Yes. I'm particularly thrown by the bitterness. Some premeds are just constantly bitching about having to "jump through the hoops" and it leaves a bad taste. Why wouldn't there be a bunch of hoops?

 

[Planes2Doc]

Yes. I'm particularly thrown by the bitterness. Some premeds are just constantly bitching about having to "jump through the hoops" and it leaves a bad taste. Why wouldn't there be a bunch of hoops?

Interesting observation. I can't quite put my finger on what makes pre-meds different than other students. A majority of people I knew from college majored in business. They had no issues with taking summer summer internships, since this is considered essential to getting a job. I've never really heard anyone bitch or whine about these things.

Maybe it's because most internships are actually paid?

I have heard high schoolers that have mandatory community service whine about how much it sucks. Same with pre-meds. Ironically, I think a lot of them whine about it particularly bad due to having to work without making money, since medical school (and other health professional schools) is pretty much the only graduate program for most part that requires you to have experience where you work for free. If you were going into business, law, or other field, it's not a big deal. I think this is where people get mad, which is funny because the whole point of volunteering is to give back to the community. 🙄

 

[volcomx]

Ironically, I think a lot of them whine about it particularly bad due to having to work without making money, since medical school (and other health professional schools) is pretty much the only graduate program for most part that requires you to have experience where you work for free

Not to mention one of the most expensive graduate programs.

I recently found a volunteer position that I enjoy and find meaningful. However, when I used to volunteer at a hospital, I found the position extremely boring and useless. I filed paperwork alone in a backroom office. It was a job that someone should have been paid to do (actually, the next summer, I found a paid job doing the exact same thing in a private practice clinic). The CEO, COO, and CFO could have cut their salaries by 2% and funded a whole department of office assistants to do that job. I suspect a lot of premeds find themselves in positions like this where they are blatantly being taken advantage of.

 

[chillaxbro]

Not to mention one of the most expensive graduate programs.

I recently found a volunteer position that I enjoy and find meaningful. However, when I used to volunteer at a hospital, I found the position extremely boring and useless. I filed paperwork alone in a backroom office. It was a job that someone should have been paid to do (actually, the next summer, I found a paid job doing the exact same thing in a private practice clinic). The CEO, COO, and CFO could have cut their salaries by 2% and funded a whole department of office assistants to do that job. I suspect a lot of premeds find themselves in positions like this where they are blatantly being taken advantage of.

My volunteer position at the hospital where I was filing stuff was going to turn into a paid position... until one of my friends was picked up at a bar by the office lady... and offered sex (which he turned down) and the the job (which he took)

True story

 

[yehhhboiii]

My volunteer position at the hospital where I was filing stuff was going to turn into a paid position... until one of my friends was picked up at a bar by the office lady... and offered sex (which he turned down) and the the job (which he took)

True story

sounds like your friend needs a lesson from dr. samuel shem

 

[markmark]

The "volunteering" requirement reeks of classism to me. Most normal people cannot afford to spend an entire summer working without pay, travelling to exotic locales on medical missions or working at a summer camp.

 

[music2doc]

The "volunteering" requirement reeks of classism to me. Most normal people cannot afford to spend an entire summer working without pay, travelling to exotic locales on medical missions or working at a summer camp.

And being able to afford to go to college doesn't? Most people who can afford to go to college can afford to volunteer. Even so, someone who works to pay their way through school is a special case and adcoms tend to view that as an acceptable substitute. There is also a concept in Admissions known as "distance traveled," which is meant to take what you are saying into account.

 

[Planes2Doc]

The "volunteering" requirement reeks of classism to me. Most normal people cannot afford to spend an entire summer working without pay, travelling to exotic locales on medical missions or working at a summer camp.

Working an entire summer?



It's more like at least a few years for a traditional pre-med student in college! When I volunteered at the hospital, I was mostly cleaning rooms and restocking shelves which the ED techs did. Luckily I didn't clean poop or anything like that, but I did a good amount of work that the paid orderly do. I hear the going wage in my area is around $15/hour. I was really sad counting up the hundreds of hours of free labor I've done and the thousands of dollars I've lost out on. 🙁

I wouldn't feel bad if I volunteered for a free clinic, but good luck finding a position in Chicago with all the other pre-meds. Instead I was lucky to line the pockets of hospital management. I hope I was able to provide them with maybe one more exotic trip. 😉

 

[circulus vitios]

And being able to afford to go to college doesn't? Most people who can afford to go to college can afford to volunteer. Even so, someone who works to pay their way through school is a special case and adcoms tend to view that as an acceptable substitute. There is also a concept in Admissions known as "distance traveled," which is meant to take what you are saying into account.

Uh federal loans don't cover the full amount. I went to the cheapest public school in my state, and I was still a few thousand dollars short every year. I had to work in the summers to help pay for my normal bills and to pay for that couple thousand dollars that loans wouldn't cover.

 

[Bea5T]

The "volunteering" requirement reeks of classism to me. Most normal people cannot afford to spend an entire summer working without pay, travelling to exotic locales on medical missions or working at a summer camp.

Sorry but I am not aware of these "normal" college kids who work the entire summer.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Sorry but I am not aware of these "normal" college kids who work the entire summer.

I'm also not aware of many "normal" college kids that volunteer all summer. Plenty either spend their summer doing things they are passionate about (seriously), are in summer school, or do paid summer internships as upperclassmen if they are business majors.

I also don't know of many "normal" college kids aside from pre-meds that do extensive free labor on a weekly basis throughout the school year.

 

[The Bunk]

Interesting observation. I can't quite put my finger on what makes pre-meds different than other students. A majority of people I knew from college majored in business. They had no issues with taking summer summer internships, since this is considered essential to getting a job. I've never really heard anyone bitch or whine about these things.

Maybe it's because most internships are actually paid?

I have heard high schoolers that have mandatory community service whine about how much it sucks. Same with pre-meds. Ironically, I think a lot of them whine about it particularly bad due to having to work without making money, since medical school (and other health professional schools) is pretty much the only graduate program for most part that requires you to have experience where you work for free. If you were going into business, law, or other field, it's not a big deal. I think this is where people get mad, which is funny because the whole point of volunteering is to give back to the community. 🙄

I don't think most internships are paid. It certainly depends on the field. My younger sister was thrilled to get a paid internship in DC because the majority of those political positions are unpaid. But she would have taken an unpaid internship in a flash because the experience itself is valuable.

I have some volunteering on my app. It's not extraordinary, but I do it in my free time and it is sincere and meaningful. Yet some people on this thread suggest that it "shouldn't count" because it isn't "above and beyond.

Nobody said that.

The "volunteering" requirement reeks of classism to me. Most normal people cannot afford to spend an entire summer working without pay, travelling to exotic locales on medical missions or working at a summer camp.

There are so many other kinds of volunteering opportunities. It's entirely possible to have a paying job, go to school, and volunteer at the same time. Just don't pick the kind of volunteer position that dominates your whole life. Those volunteering vacations are unnecessary.

 

[circulus vitios]

There are so many other kinds of volunteering opportunities. It's entirely possible to have a paying job, go to school, and volunteer at the same time. Just don't pick the kind of volunteer position that dominates your whole life. Those volunteering vacations are unnecessary.

Entirely dependent on where you live. If you are in a rural area, you're pretty much screwed.

 

[The Bunk]

Entirely dependent on where you live. If you are in a rural area, you're pretty much screwed.

Are you saying that the only way to volunteer in a rural area is to either pay for a volunteer expedition to South America or volunteer at a camp all Summer? I don't live in a rural area, so I suppose that I don't know for sure, but that sounds like a huge exaggeration/making excuses to me.

 

[music2doc]

I think for those of us who volunteered before becoming pre-med, it was volunteering as part of a hobby or passion. I volunteered as a freshmen with our school of music teaching voice and musicianship lessons at our on-site music conservatory, which served the poor communities nearby by offering very lost-cost music programs. I did it because I enjoyed it and because it gave me valuable teaching experience. I held several student leadership positions for which I received no pay because I enjoyed the work (mentoring younger students, organizing fun activities, etc.) I volunteered on my church's worship team because I enjoyed making music and also being a part of my church's community.

What strikes me is that many pre-meds go out and volunteer for what to me seem to be random, boring opportunities and (voila!) hate it. IMO, if you do things you love, community service can be a lot of fun because, to you, it isn't "community service" anymore, but a hobby that just so happens to benefit other people in the community.

I don't think I would have wanted to have volunteered in a hospital. I'm glad I got my clinical experience as an EMT and managed to get a sweet gig at a free clinic. If you can score yourself some free clinic experience, it will be far better than anything you'll get in a hospital (as a volunteer, anyway).

 

[Planes2Doc]

I think for those of us who volunteered for becoming pre-med, it was volunteering as part of a hobby or passion. I volunteered as a freshmen with our school of music teaching voice and musicianship lessons at our on-site music conservatory, which served the poor communities nearby by offering very lost-cost music programs. I did it because I enjoyed it and because it gave me valuable teaching experience. I held several student leadership positions for which I received no pay because I enjoyed the work (mentoring younger students, organizing fun activities, etc. I volunteered on my church's worship team because I enjoyed making music and also being a part of my church's community.

What strikes me is that many pre-meds go out and volunteer for what to me seem to be random, boring opportunities and (voila!) hate it. IMO, if you do things you love, community service can be a lot of fun because, to you, it isn't "community service" anymore, but a hobby that just so happens to benefit other people in the community.

I did non-clinical volunteering which involved using my hobby and helped an organization that I cared about. I enjoyed it a lot, and would still do it now if it weren't for school. The opportunity was extremely sporadic, with me volunteering once every few months.

I didn't think that this would have worked as my only volunteer experience as it wasn't weekly, like ADCOMs most likely wanted to see. So that's why I had to pick up one of those boring gigs you speak of which sucked real bad.

 

[circulus vitios]

Are you saying that the only way to volunteer in a rural area is to either pay for a volunteer expedition to South America or volunteer at a camp all Summer? I don't live in a rural area, so I suppose that I don't know for sure, but that sounds like a huge exaggeration/making excuses to me.

I live in a rural area. The only full-time jobs were in factories, working swing shift. Trying to volunteer at places that operate on a 9-5 schedule while working swing shift = lol good luck.

 

[The Bunk]

I live in a rural area. The only full-time jobs were in factories, working swing shift. Trying to volunteer at places that operate on a 9-5 schedule while working swing shift = lol good luck.

I feel like adcoms will take your circumstances into account. They need rural physicians. But still. . . There are no volunteer opportunities evenings or weekends? Are you working full-time all year or just during the summer?

 

[circulus vitios]

I feel like adcoms will take your circumstances into account. They need rural physicians. But still. . . There are no volunteer opportunities evenings or weekends? Are you working full-time all year or just during the summer?

During the summer. In the school year I commuted an hour each way to classes, 5 days a week, and worked weird hours on the weekends and sometimes during the week. It's not unusual when you live and go to school in a rural area because there are few jobs, and they can get away with requiring terrible schedules because it's not like you have a choice.

 

[The Bunk]

During the summer. In the school year I commuted an hour each way to classes, 5 days a week, and worked weird hours on the weekends and sometimes during the week. It's not unusual when you live and go to school in a rural area because there are few jobs, and they can get away with requiring terrible schedules because it's not like you have a choice.

I really don't think adcoms will penalize you. What kind of volunteer positions are you looking at? There's gotta be something you can do a couple of hours a week.

 

[ChemEngMD]

I feel like adcoms will take your circumstances into account. They need rural physicians. But still. . . There are no volunteer opportunities evenings or weekends? Are you working full-time all year or just during the summer?

Don't look to Circulos...we covered in another thread that he has no interest of returning to rural communities

 

[Planes2Doc]

Don't look to Circulos...we covered in another thread that he has no interest of returning to rural communities

Well apparently a lot of pre-meds that claim to have interests in things like rural medicine, helping the underserved, etc through their ECs have no interest in doing them either. 😉

If applicants were actually genuine, then ADCOMs wouldn't have a need to find physicians to do these things.

 

[ChemEngMD]

Well apparently a lot of pre-meds that claim to have interests in things like rural medicine, helping the underserved, etc through their ECs have no interest in doing them either. 😉

If applicants were actually genuine, then ADCOMs wouldn't have a need to find physicians to do these things.

I agree with you. I just came from an undergraduate school that did not have many gunner pre-meds...from my school of approximately ~10k undergrads I would guess we send between 10 and 20 students to MD/DO schools per year. It's not competitive and I did not run into many fake, resume padders as an undergrad.

My graduate school is much bigger and I have met a few of the undergrads here who are definitely saying/doing whatever they can to get into school.

It's strange to me because I didn't decide on medical school until I was pretty much done my undergraduate career so all of the ECs I partook in between 2007 and 2011 were simply out of personal passion, not resume padding. I guess I have to get used to dealing with these types of folks once I get to med school

 

[Planes2Doc]

I agree with you. I just came from an undergraduate school that did not have many gunner pre-meds...from my school of approximately ~10k undergrads I would guess we send between 10 and 20 students to MD/DO schools per year. It's not competitive and I did not run into many fake, resume padders as an undergrad.

My graduate school is much bigger and I have met a few of the undergrads here who are definitely saying/doing whatever they can to get into school.

It's strange to me because I didn't decide on medical school until I was pretty much done my undergraduate career so all of the ECs I partook in between 2007 and 2011 were simply out of personal passion, not resume padding. I guess I have to get used to dealing with these types of folks once I get to med school

Yeah pretty much. Also remember that traditional students will outnumber non-traditional students heavily. Few people will apply that likely had the chance to follow "true" passions. I think the majority of traditional competitive pre-meds that end up getting into medical school will be "ZERO to Mother Teresa" where they pick up a laundry-list of ECs virtually overnight, and then drop it once they have an acceptance in hand.

 

[ChemEngMD]

Yeah pretty much. Also remember that traditional students will outnumber non-traditional students heavily. Few people will apply that likely had the chance to follow "true" passions. I think the majority of traditional competitive pre-meds that end up getting into medical school will be "ZERO to Mother Teresa" where they pick up a laundry-list of ECs virtually overnight, and then drop it once they have an acceptance in hand.

Well that just makes me sad. 🙁 I guess I'll have to try and feel out the current medical students during my interviews to see if I can spot genuineness lol

 

[SunsFun]

There are so many other kinds of volunteering opportunities. It's entirely possible to have a paying job, go to school, and volunteer at the same time. Just don't pick the kind of volunteer position that dominates your whole life. Those volunteering vacations are unnecessary.

I see your point but I think free labor as a factor in the admissions benefits kids from better families. If you take a kid from a family of 5 with a single mother sharing a small apartment in the middle of nowhere, having him or her leave the family to go volunteer can be very taxing especially when the family is struggling to make ends meet,

 

[Planes2Doc]

I see your point but I think free labor as a factor in the admissions benefits kids from better families. If you take a kid from a family of 5 with a single mother sharing a small apartment in the middle of nowhere, having him or her leave the family to go volunteer can be very taxing especially when the family is struggling to make ends meet,

Exactly. Plus isn't volunteering supposed to be just that, volunteering? I thought it's something people do if they want to. If they are unable to do it for whatever reason, whether financial or personal, shouldn't be obligated to do it. I thought that this is what volunteering is about? Freely giving by choice.

 

[The Bunk]

I see your point but I think free labor as a factor in the admissions benefits kids from better families. If you take a kid from a family of 5 with a single mother sharing a small apartment in the middle of nowhere, having him or her leave the family to go volunteer can be very taxing especially when the family is struggling to make ends meet,

Like I said, I think adcoms can appreciate when someone is truly stretched too thin to have a ton of ECs. But I still think there's gotta be something along the lines of just a couple of hours a week that anybody can find time for.

 

[cookiemonsters]

Exactly. Plus isn't volunteering supposed to be just that, volunteering? I thought it's something people do if they want to. If they are unable to do it for whatever reason, whether financial or personal, shouldn't be obligated to do it. I thought that this is what volunteering is about? Freely giving by choice.

lol at one school last year I was rejected post-interview and called for feedback since I thought I would be reapplying (I got accepted off another school's WL a few days later). The admissions lady told me that the biggest hole in my application was a lack of volunteering and that I should get at least 100 hours if I wanted to have a better shot at their school. She said altruism is one of the important perameters that they use to evaluate potential students. My internal reaction was "uhhh... forced volunteering isn't really altruism" but of course I kept my mouth shut.

 

[circulus vitios]

Like I said, I think adcoms can appreciate when someone is truly stretched too thin to have a ton of ECs. But I still think there's gotta be something along the lines of just a couple of hours a week that anybody can find time for.

Again, it depends on where you're volunteering. Closest place I volunteered at was a 45 minute drive each way, and they were only open 9-5 M-F.

 

[The Bunk]

Again, it depends on where you're volunteering. Closest place I volunteered at was a 45 minute drive each way, and they were only open 9-5 M-F.

What kind of volunteering are/were you doing?