Any thoughts on Duke?

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HookeIsMyHero

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Hi,
I'm excited to have recently found this forum!
I recently interviewed at Duke. I had a very positive experience and was impressed with their training. However, when asked where I was applying at other interviews, a few people (mostly faculty) seemed a bit negative about their program. I thought that one said something about turnover (not sure if it was of faculty or residents). Does anyone know what the word is on the street about Duke?
Thanks!
 
I don't know specifically about duke, but bear in mind that turnover is not necessarily a bad thing, especially when it comes to residency training. Oftentimes, yes, it can mean that things are chaotic or ill defined, but only sometimes. When programs are large and have been around awhile, even turnover in high profile positions often doesn't mean much change. The thing is, some programs will claim to be a better fit because they are more "stable," and in doing so will badmouth other programs (subtlely, at times). But you have to judge for yourself. It is very important to ask critical questions of programs that are undergoing changes - if other interviews bring up concerns that you didn't ask at the time at Duke, ask the Duke PD about them (or someone else there). Just because you are finished with the interview doesn't mean you are done evaluating.
 
**Gossip Warning**

It is my understanding there was once a time when the Duke training program was very prosperous. Almost a golden age some would call. During this period of enlightment, a faculty member in pathology had an affair with the wife of the chairman. This created a schism in the department with a portion behind the chairman, a very well known pathologist and the alleged adulterer. As a result, the chairman lead a group of fine pathologists who essentially then became of the core of the Hopkins department as well as a splinter group of neuropath people who ended up at BWH.

But this was like 10+ years ago. No idea why that would be an issue now.
 
From what I know, it's a very resident-centered program with great volume and variety. The residents work hard and see a lot. The program has really tailored itself to resident needs, i.e. minimizing scut in the gross room by hiring excellent PAs (and they have the resources for this). The residents definitely seem supported and learning is the priority. They train excellent diagnosticians but on the other hand if you're interested in research, the opportunites & resources are there. They also seem to have a family-like feel with good relationships among residents & faculty.
 
**Gossip Warning**

It is my understanding there was once a time when the Duke training program was very prosperous. Almost a golden age some would call. During this period of enlightment, a faculty member in pathology had an affair with the wife of the chairman. This created a schism in the department with a portion behind the chairman, a very well known pathologist and the alleged adulterer. As a result, the chairman lead a group of fine pathologists who essentially then became of the core of the Hopkins department as well as a splinter group of neuropath people who ended up at BWH.

But this was like 10+ years ago. No idea why that would be an issue now.

Hmmm...was the former Duke chair now a buckeye?

To the OP: Oh well, if you like Durham then go for it.
 
**Gossip Warning**

It is my understanding there was once a time when the Duke training program was very prosperous. Almost a golden age some would call. During this period of enlightment, a faculty member in pathology had an affair with the wife of the chairman. This created a schism in the department with a portion behind the chairman, a very well known pathologist and the alleged adulterer. As a result, the chairman lead a group of fine pathologists who essentially then became of the core of the Hopkins department as well as a splinter group of neuropath people who ended up at BWH.

But this was like 10+ years ago. No idea why that would be an issue now.


Interesting. I'd heard from a couple of old-timers that there was some sort of major shakeup over a decade ago and Duke's reputation in the path world never really rebounded. I had never actually heard any specifics though.
 
Hi everyone,

I thought I'd take a minute to reply to this thread since I am a resident at Duke. First, see this long post I wrote last year about the program. The information in this thread is still accurate, I think.

I would also like to address the "turnover" issue somebody mentioned. From my perspective as a mid-level resident, this has not been an issue so far in my residency. During my tenure here, there have been a couple of "short-timers" among the most junior faculty (e.g. those just out of fellowship) who have all left for private practice. I have the impression that this is probably true anywhere--people use instructor positions as a springboard to something better. However, most of the faculty, particularly those most active in resident education, are here to stay and have no plans to leave. Many of our faculty, including our chairman, have been here for many years. Sadly, we are losing one of our most senior pathologists this year (retiring after a great career). That person will be missed, there's no way around that, and we're all sad to see them go.

As far as LADoc's tale of scandal-- I asked one of the department's most skilled gossip collectors, he said that there are indeed echoes of such stories if you dig deep. However, he also said that it occurred so long ago that nobody talks about it or cares about it. As a resident, I certainly do not believe whatever it was that may have happened has any effect on me now.

Last year I gave Duke a glowing review, and I still feel the same way. This is a great program, our residents go on to good careers, and we have fun along the way. I hope that comes across on interview day. I would be happy to answer any more questions anybody might have.
 
I interviewed at Duke last year and loved it. The residents there are super friendly and seem to be happy with the program. They have a nice schedule as well (i.e. they get enough sleep and have timre for life outside the hospital...even in their first year). The area is wonderful, especially Duke West Campus with Duke Gardens and beautiful buildings.

The one questionable aspect I saw (and have since heard over and over from attendings) is that the residents don't gross enough. From what I saw, they gross for a couple of weeks at the beginning of year and then one to two specimens a day. I believe Duke has a PA school, so many of the specimens need to go to them so they can be well trained. I'm not sure how important this dirth of grossing is, especially if you go into academics or a practice with well-trained PAs. On the flip side, it's nice that you're not turned into a grossing machine. It's something you might want to think about when choosing a program.
 
I interviewed at Duke last year and loved it. The residents there are super friendly and seem to be happy with the program. They have a nice schedule as well (i.e. they get enough sleep and have timre for life outside the hospital...even in their first year). The area is wonderful, especially Duke West Campus with Duke Gardens and beautiful buildings.

The one questionable aspect I saw (and have since heard over and over from attendings) is that the residents don't gross enough. From what I saw, they gross for a couple of weeks at the beginning of year and then one to two specimens a day. I believe Duke has a PA school, so many of the specimens need to go to them so they can be well trained. I'm not sure how important this dirth of grossing is, especially if you go into academics or a practice with well-trained PAs. On the flip side, it's nice that you're not turned into a grossing machine. It's something you might want to think about when choosing a program.

This is partially correct, but it leaves out some of the grossing experience we get. I'll give a rundown of how things are working as of today: As a first-year, your first two weeks of surgical pathology are a "grossing introduction" in which you are in the lab grossing full time under the direct supervision of senior residents, senior PAs, and the frozen section attending. After this, on a routine non-call day on surg path you will gross in 1-2 larges from the service you are on. On a frozen section call days (q4-5) as a junior resident, you gross various specimens during most of the day, breaking for frozens as they come in. (As a senior, you devote much more of this time to frozen section interpretation.) In addition, we have weekend call once a month in which we gross all the large specimens (and occasionally some smalls) that came into the lab after the cutoff time on Friday evening. At the VA (1 of your 3 surgpath months from years 2-4) the resident and the two PA students we directly supervise are responsible for grossing everything that comes through the door.

It's true that we do less grossing than many programs with similar specimen volume, but we do more than enough to become competent. In fact, I think our setup on surg path is one of the strengths of our program. It gets busy at times and (like anywhere) we do work hard, but there is a conscious effort among faculty to keep resident time in the gross lab educational, and to minimize routine, low-yield tasks. This pays off in terms of greatly increased protected preview time while maintaining a moderate work hour total during all four years of residency.

I'd be happy try to shed some light on anything else you'd like to know about the program, so don't hesitate to ask.
 
I interviewed at Duke last year and loved it. The residents there are super friendly and seem to be happy with the program. They have a nice schedule as well (i.e. they get enough sleep and have timre for life outside the hospital...even in their first year). The area is wonderful, especially Duke West Campus with Duke Gardens and beautiful buildings.

The one questionable aspect I saw (and have since heard over and over from attendings) is that the residents don't gross enough. From what I saw, they gross for a couple of weeks at the beginning of year and then one to two specimens a day. I believe Duke has a PA school, so many of the specimens need to go to them so they can be well trained. I'm not sure how important this dirth of grossing is, especially if you go into academics or a practice with well-trained PAs. On the flip side, it's nice that you're not turned into a grossing machine. It's something you might want to think about when choosing a program.

At any high volume center, you are going to gross plenty of routine specimens, more than enough to learn the pathology. The problem is that at many large centers, you see SO MANY routine specimens that your eyes bleed and your synapses shrivel. This is what Duke has worked to avoid. No, you will not become a super efficient grossing machine at Duke, but that's OK - "moving the meat" is not the point of residency training. Unfortuantely, the reality is that most centers simply do not have the resources, and residents are cheaper than PAs.
 
Loa Loa, I've heard so many great things from you about Duke's surg path training, but I haven't heard much about cytopath and the CP training. Could you tell us about your experiences in those fields? Are you happy with training in CP as well? Also, I have heard that some CP rotations and cytopath are not at Duke but at an outside lab. Thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it.
 
Loa Loa, I've heard so many great things from you about Duke's surg path training, but I haven't heard much about cytopath and the CP training. Could you tell us about your experiences in those fields? Are you happy with training in CP as well? Also, I have heard that some CP rotations and cytopath are not at Duke but at an outside lab. Thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it.

The cytopathology rotation here is very well-liked among residents. The way it works is that we rotate every 2-3 days with the cytopathology fellow, alternating being on the FNA service and doing exfoliative cytopathology. The FNA service is set up to be very "customer service" oriented. As a resident, you carry the pager on your FNA days, and are responsible for coordinating our responses to requests from clinicians to do FNAs on patients in the hospital or in the clinics. We as residents are present (and "run the show" to a variable degree, depending on the attending) at most of the FNAs and core biopsies done in radiology, bronchoscopy, or GI endoscopy. We respond to requests for FNAs within 30 minutes, usually (pretty good for a consult!). It usually averages out to about 10 cases / day or so. We get plenty of opportunity to practice our FNA technique and to perform immediate assessments. Cases from the previous days are signed out during downtime. The days are busy but the service "closes" at 5 pm every day, so the hours are great. Exfoliative cytopatholgy takes place at Franklin Lab, which is a Duke-affiliated facility that, as you asked about, is down the street. On those days, we go over to Franklin lab in the morning after conference to preview everything, then sign out the cases with the attendings (who also rotate between FNA and exfoliative) in the afternoon. These are usually light days.

Clinical pathology training here is quite good, in general. The rotations are fairly structured, and most have a defined curriculum and scheduled regular meetings with the attendings and technicians. It is taken seriously here, as we occasionally have residents who go on to fellowships in CP-ish areas (blood bank, molecular, micro). That said, there is a certain amount of flexibility built in to the CP training and you can usually customize the rotations to your preferences. (For example, if you're a fourth year resident studying for boards in April, you can arrange a very light month for yourself.) In my opinion, our CP faculty are, pretty much across the board, very good. As a second year resident, I have not done much CP yet, so I really don't have a lot of specifics about each rotation to add. Some of the CP rotations are done at Duke hospital, some are done at the VA (literally across the street), and some are done at Franklin lab. We have a 100% passage rate for CP (and AP) boards among our residents in recent memory, as far as I know.

Regarding off-site training, our off-site rotations include occasional trips to Franklin lab, the VA, and a one-month stint at the OCME for the state of North Carolina across town at UNC. The faculty you work with at these facilities are (with the exception of the OCME month) all the same Duke faculty with whom we usually work. There are advantages and disadvantages to this setup, but from a resident's perspective, it is not viewed as burdensome. The vast majority of your time as a resident is spent in Duke University Hospital.

I hope this is helpful information. Let me know if there's anything else I can answer.
 
I would just like to echo LoaLoa's thoughtful assessment of the training at Duke. I am a fourth-year resident here at Duke, and I truly believe that ours is one of the best path training programs out there. It was my first choice, and I would make the same choice again. In fact, I am sticking around to do our cytopath fellowship here next year.

To those concerned about Duke residents not grossing 'enough', I have to smile at the concept. It is just not true. Every resident leaves here completely comfortable with grossing any type of specimen. People who claim that we don't gross enough tend to be training (or teaching) at programs that do not have the ancillary personnel that we have here at Duke. In my opinion, they are trying to put a positive spin on the fact that their residents need to be in the gross room getting the specimens in, rather than previewing their cases, putting together the final reports, and going home to read more about the entities they have encountered. In reality, our grossing skills are learned from a combination of teaching by extremely well-trained and experienced PAs as well as the attending pathologists we are on service with. I think most of our residents would agree that you basically max out on gross room learning within our first year or two of training. Everything after that is just about getting the work done. I believe that our program is one of the few that has its priorites straight about how to divide up the amount of time a resident has in the course of a day!

To those asking about CP: our CP is also very strong. As junior residents, we go through very structured rotations in all of the core CP disciplines: chemistry, microbiology, transfusion medicine, hematopathology and molecular diagnostics. These rotations are built around daily bench time with senior lab technologists and daily teaching rounds/meetings with our attendings. As a senior resident, your rotations are very flexible and can be tailored to the individual level of interest. For example, I recently completed a senior elective in transfusion medicine during which I was the "acting attending". I was the backup for two junior residents on the service, fielded calls from clinicians about difficult cases, and got involved with supervisory responsibilities in the blood bank itself. Each day, I met with the director of the service in a one-on-one setting to discuss interesting cases that had come up since the previous day. Although I admit that many of the Duke residents are more interested in the AP side of things, our CP training completely prepares us for both boards and practice.

To those asking about cytopathology: that is an especially strong part of our training here. As a resident on the service, you very quickly become semi-autonomous, performing aspirates on clinic patients yourself and sometimes rendering the immediate assessments (this last part happens typically for more senior residents). We also have very competitive fellowships in hemepath, dermpath and cytopath, all of which lead to subspecialty board certification.

And finally, to those gossiping about the "scandal": I again echo LoaLoa's sentiment about the lack of relevance to anyone here now. I only found out about it because of people asking about it on this forum. That should give an idea about just how much of a non-issue it is for attendings and residents here today.

I welcome further comments or discussion, and will be happy to answer any questions on things I have said.
 
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