Any Thoughts on Problem Based Learning?

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  1. Dental Student
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For those of you who are attending dental schools that offer problem-based learning curriculums,
What are your experiences like?
What are the pros and cons about your respective program?
Is how much you learn somewhat dependent on your team members?


I'm a 2006 cycle dental applicant, I would very much appreciate you guys' input as dental students.

Thanks
 
I don't have 1st hand experience, but I'll let you know in a month when I start school. 🙂
 
My school is mostly traditional with a little PBL thrown in. Honestly, I think it wastes time. It's just not a very efficient way of learning. You spend a lot of time researching, presenting, and listening to superfluous information that really is of no use when you get to clinic. Traditional lectures by comparison present what is important for understanding, diagnosing and treating disease in an efficient manner. Researching topics for PBL courses just gave me less time to study and think about other courses. One advantage is PBL is probably a more interesting or entertaining format with which to learn: "what's going to happen next?" But, I didn't think it taught me any special problem solving skills at the time. Now that I'm in clinic, I know it didn't. There are other methods of teaching that I'd agree with more such as case presentations and discussions and rounds, but these work better for students that are already in clinic and have a vague idea of what's going on.
Again, I'll stress PBL doesn't teach any more or less, it's just different. Some students may suggest that PBL students may fair better with the upcoming, unseen board exams, so you may consider that. I for one doubt it will be any advantage or disadvantage unless the Boards follow a strict PBL format which won't happen. Hope this helps.
 
I agree. PBL sucks! such a waste of time, counter productive! You can tell that the instructors in your group are just winging it. I don't believe that they even look over the materials before the session! "so what do you think about that?" "and why is that?" "what can you do in that situation?" blahh, blah, blah....
 
Listen up.....I will have nothing more important to say....PBL IS THE MOST RIDICULOUS WASTE OF TIME EVER IMAGINED!!!!!! They try to fill your head with this BS about how great it is and how it will help...but all it does is waste 6 hours of your busy life a week. 👎 Then you spend the rest of your "free" time trying to guess what is going to be on the test and what you were supposed to "get" from the case. If the objective is not crystal clear, guess what....YOU'RE SCREWED.

My advice would be to go to school in Puerto Rico before i went to a school an inland PBL school 😱
 
USC Moves to Problem-Based Learning
By Janyce Hamilton
http://www.cda.org/cda_member/pubs/journal/jour1201/impress.html

Six years after the University of Southern California’s problem-based-learning pilot program was initiated, people are still saying "Huh?"

The USC School of Dentistry transitioned to the innovative problem-based-learning approach to encourage students to become engaged in their learning and develop critical thinking skills essential for success in dental practice. Traditionally, the first few years of dental school involve sitting through disconnected lectures presented in multiple courses on different themes. Lectures introduce curricular content that students are to memorize and master for subsequent application to patient care, however actual clinical application may not occur for months to years. Unfortunately, the delay from passive learning to active implementation challenges retention in even the brightest students.

In the problem-based-learning changeover, USC joins the ranks of Harvard Medical School, Harvard School of Dental Medicine and Indiana University, which make problem-based learning a significant component of their education programs. USC’s Medical School is currently transitioning to the format as well.

"The traditional approach involves lectures often unrelated to one another, and few other overarching themes exist that allow the students to relate physiology to biochemistry to other disciplines," said Malcolm Snead, DDS, PhD, professor of USC School of Dentistry, Center for Craniofacial Molecular Biology. Dr. Snead is one of the faculty actively involved in problem-based-learning program development and student facilitation.

Instead of waiting until the last two years of dental school to give students real-world problems to solve, problem-based learning is done throughout all of dental school for all courses and involves no scheduled lectures. The problems serve as the vehicle for learning for all curricular content, including both the basic and clinical sciences.

During freshman year, the application of content learned through the cases is applied as the student progresses from simulator to the clinic. The student provides care and completes clinical procedures that are at his or her level of competency, such as examinations, data collection, and initial periodontal therapy. Right from the beginning, this approach to learning serves as an engaging means of learning "the basics" and how these pieces of knowledge fit into the puzzle of a case scenario. The problem cases naturally lead to the delivery of dental care, and the sequence of learning is established so that the students progress to more-complicated therapies in the later years of dental school. For example, a senior would do complicated restorative, prosthodontic, and periodontal procedures.

This problem-based-learning approach is often likened to the process that a clinician follows when working up a patient.

The typical steps of problem-based learning include:

* The facilitator provides a small group of students with a case scenario that includes a series of signs and symptoms exhibited by a patient.

* The students first establish the facts of the case and then brainstorm hypotheses in analyzing the facts, thereby determining a course of investigation. This course of investigation involves the students formulating their learning needs so they further understand the facts, their hypotheses, and the mechanisms behind the signs and symptoms. In doing so, they go to the literature and acquire the knowledge needed to understand the patient’s presentation (a skill development critical for lifelong learning);

* The students meet and review the facts based on their newly amassed knowledge, revising and rejecting ideas and establishing new lines of investigation to further expand their knowledge base.

* The cycle of learning continues when the facilitator provides the group with an additional page of information about the case scenario, from which the students begin to triage their ideas, link facts, and identify new learning needs. The cycles of critical thinking, mastery of new material and application to the problem occur continually.

This process of learning integrates all the content mastered by the student and provides a high degree of relevance through the application to a patient’s condition. One result of the problem-based-learning process can be summed up by the "high-fives" students sometimes give each other when they discover that they have successfully diagnosed and identified treatment for solving the patient’s problem.

The problem-based-learning students begin clinical experiences in the first trimester and continue to increase the number of clinical experiences per week throughout the four years of the curriculum. Compared with students in the traditional DDS program at USC, the problem-based-learning students have more than 50 percent more clinical sessions during their four years in school. All clinical experiences occur at the student’s level of clinical competency since they enter the clinic to perform a procedure once they have demonstrated preclinical competency. Early clinical experience is a valuable incentive for students and helps them to appreciate the rationale for the content of the curriculum and the application of the basic and clinical sciences they have mastered.

The problem-based-learning students meet the same set of clinical competencies as all other graduates of the school. Currently, there are 24 competencies established by the faculty that define the abilities of a new dental graduate. These competencies require both breadth and quality of clinical experience as important criteria to establish student ability. There is little difference between the criteria used to establish graduation competency for either the traditional or problem-based-learning programs.

According to Charles Shuler, DMD, PhD, associate dean of student and academic affairs, the problem-based-learning format is breeding a new crop of critical thinkers who investigate the evidence presented to them.

"Analyzing the student achievements, it has been shown that the students performed at a much higher level on standardized tests and had a much greater interest in learning," Shuler said.

Traditional naysayers resisting the changeover to problem-based learning at other dental schools claim its flaw is the potential for "gaps in knowledge" because students may not address some issues in a case. Countered Snead: "For that reason, we employ cases that overlap learning themes," which he claims results in reinforcement in detail and refined knowledge, correcting misunderstandings.

The case scenarios chosen are in fact carefully selected to, at minimum, equate learning imparted through a traditional lecture, but minus the yawning, bobbing heads.

In fact, more than 20 U.S. dental schools, and several international dental schools, have contacted USC for more information on problem-based learning. According to Shuler, whose office has played a central role in the transition, several visiting faculty have sat in to observe the process and learn the teaching skills of being a problem-based-learning facilitator.

Snead said practicing dentists who have observed the problem-based-learning process say it is identical to the process they use in their practices every day.
 
Da ObtURator said:
This process of learning integrates all the content mastered by the student and provides a high degree of relevance through the application to a patient’s condition. One result of the problem-based-learning process can be summed up by the "high-fives" students sometimes give each other when they discover that they have successfully diagnosed and identified treatment for solving the patient’s problem.

:laugh:

Oh boy. Sounds like I'm gonna have a blast come July. 😱 eek
 
maybe it depends on where you go to school. i like our pbl. keeps me from having to sit through endless hours of lecture. the material gets tied into a real case, which helps me to remember the info. and i think it's priceless if you think you may ever work in a group setting. it's amazing how poor some people's communication skills are. the pbl setting gives you a chance to really learn how to work with other people. even if you plan on being a solo practitioner, you're still going to have a staff that you'll need to communicate with.

i don't think what you learn really depends on your team members. how much fun you have does. but for the most part, our pbl tends to be an opportunity to rehash the lecture material in a clinically-related manner. so, if you like that, apply to harvard. they're the ones that started it all.
 
zdaddy08 said:
Listen up.....I will have nothing more important to say....PBL IS THE MOST RIDICULOUS WASTE OF TIME EVER IMAGINED!!!!!! They try to fill your head with this BS about how great it is and how it will help...but all it does is waste 6 hours of your busy life a week. 👎 Then you spend the rest of your "free" time trying to guess what is going to be on the test and what you were supposed to "get" from the case. If the objective is not crystal clear, guess what....YOU'RE SCREWED.

My advice would be to go to school in Puerto Rico before i went to a school an inland PBL school 😱

Oh, c'mon. If you really hate PBL that much, particularly at IUSD, you're taking it *way* too seriously and wasting *way* too much energy on it. 😉 It's an irrelevant annoyance, but compared to some of the other headaches of dental school, it barely even registers on the ARGH-o-meter.
 
I agree, It depends what school you go too. I just graduated from the PBL program of which our whole class was PBL. During my first year, I was doing learning needs as they call it and finding information on my own spending top dollar doing other peoples work(TEACHERs). And then stuyding other peoples learning needs so that I could present to the freaking facilator.
At times, I was pretty pissed off because we dont learn dentistry until we get to dental school. Then, I get to the PBL program and I have to learn dental materials, instruments, preps, dental managment, anesthesia ON MY OWN OR FROM MY CLASSMATES. At times, my PBL group was furious because we wanted to be spoon fed AKA (LECTURES). We dont want to be paying 60000 USD to have my classmate tell me what, when, and why's about dentistry.
So through the process of begging for lectures we got them. Then we entered the clinic with so much energy because of all the free time that we had not going to lectures. This is where the difference was for me and alot of the other students. We basically were eager to enter the clinic and weren't afraid to ask what or what not to do since we were so use to the different style of learning.

Alot of my experiences were GREAT because of the clinical faculty. The PBL portion (1 and 2 year) was not my favorite but the clinic was well worth coming to this dental school. WE had a great Group Practice Director, not to mention Great Faculty. We also were running computer based pt charts and dental scheduling software of which was good exposure to computer dentistry.
So my recommendation is if u do come to a PBL program; please ask about the clinical portion and whether or not u would like to learn from classmates or on your own!!!!!
 
My two cents,
I believe all of us have moved from the boy-stage, were we had the traditional lectures spoon-fed to us to the point where critical thinking must be applied. I say this, because I work in a Biomedical Lab and from this I have seen that lectures means very little if the material is not applied in real-life situations: experiments. For this I had to take into account a lot of concepts learned from biochem, immunology, bacterial genetics, and math. My first days in lab were a nightmare since I never applied the material I learned, why? Once I was done with an exam for a particular class it was erase from my mind. This is why I wanted a curriculum that motivated me to think and learn at the same time. I don't regret one bit moving to PBL. I think is time to face real-life and apply it. This is a necessity, after all it's our future we are playing with here guys. 👍
 
PBL ruined the physics curriculum here at UC Davis. For those of you who have had CPM (College Preperatory Mathematics) back in high school or junior high, that is what PBL is; the worst method of learning ever conceived!

I can't imagine PBL being any better at a dental school. Sorry gabrielmeraz, I can't find your argument very convincing. I can't imagine learning from classmates who know less than or equal to me. I'm not a bright guy and I can't expect the guy next to me to carry me through a 'case study'; that doesn't work for me.
 
EyeAmCommi said:
PBL ruined the physics curriculum here at UC Davis. For those of you who have had CPM (College Preperatory Mathematics) back in high school or junior high, that is what PBL is; the worst method of learning ever conceived!

I can't imagine PBL being any better at a dental school. Sorry gabrielmeraz, I can't find your argument very convincing. I can't imagine learning from classmates who know less than or equal to me. I'm not a bright guy and I can't expect the guy next to me to carry me through a 'case study'; that doesn't work for me.

It is your point of view and by all means I respect it. I have been exposed to PBL before and have been the only experiences I have retained information, everything else I have crammed in my CPU and trashed out of my system not because I desire it, but because I saw no meaning on retaining additional info when Ihad to make space for the next test. This is why PBL is for me; granted it is not for everyone. Cheers!
 
I think PBL is probably a great learning method for some, and the best learning method for others, and a complete waste of time for still others.

In the same vein, sitting in didactic lectures is a great learning method for some, the best method for others, and a complete waste of time for others.

We can speak about the pros and cons of each method, but all of that doesn't really apply unless you are aware of how you learn best.
 
ItsGavinC said:
I think PBL is probably a great learning method for some, and the best learning method for others, and a complete waste of time for still others.

In the same vein, sitting in didactic lectures is a great learning method for some, the best method for others, and a complete waste of time for others.

We can speak about the pros and cons of each method, but all of that doesn't really apply unless you are aware of how you learn best.

I'll drink to this! Exactly my point. 👍
 
PBL has its strong points and its weak points. As for USC, I think its far different today than it was 4 years ago. Its being run far more efficiently now than it was 4 years ago.
But like everyone is saying, PBL is not for everyone.

Just hang in there with them odd-ball MCQs, Combots, and Triple Jumps. It will sometimes piss you off when they throw u a curveball question. :luck:

-Class of 2005- 👍
 
Being a student in USC's PBL program is like running your own business. You dont work for your instructor and your job isn't memorizing all the ridiculous details so your can pass the quizes and not get fired. You work for yourself (and your group), and the goal is to understand what is happening to your patient in the case. For those who are self-motivated, this is a dream situation. But not all people work the same and some people just prefer having the boss tell them what to do.

Here are my top 5 ways to know if you'd like USC PBL.

5) If you enjoy reading your physiology book, you'd probably like USC PBL

4) If you find yourself visiting this website regularly, then you'd probably like USC PBL.

3) If you've ever worked as a tutor, you'd probably like USC PBL.

2) If you space out in lecture and understand the material by reading the book/notes at home, you'd probably like USC PBL.

and finally the number 1 way to know if you'd like USC PBL...

If you have a copy of dental-town in your bathroom, you'd probably like USC PBL
 
ShawnOne said:
Being a student in USC's PBL program is like running your own business. You dont work for your instructor and your job isn't memorizing all the ridiculous details so your can pass the quizes and not get fired. You work for yourself (and your group), and the goal is to understand what is happening to your patient in the case. For those who are self-motivated, this is a dream situation. But not all people work the same and some people just prefer having a boss tell them what to do.

Here are my top 5 ways to know if you'd like USC PBL.

5) If you enjoy reading your physiology book, you'd probably like USC PBL

4) If you find yourself visiting this website regularly, then you'd probably like USC PBL.

3) If you've ever worked as a tutor, you'd probably like USC PBL.

2) If you space out in lecture and understand the material by reading the book/notes at home, you'd probably like USC PBL.

and finally the number 1 way to know if you'd like USC PBL...

If you have a copy of dental-town in your bathroom, you'd probably like USC PBL
Sounds like a mastercard commercial!
 
Which d-schools utilize PBL learning and how different is it from EBL?
 
The idea of PBL is not a bad one....If it is used in the right context. That is if it is used to bring together different aspects of material that has been taught in lecture. At IUSD from what I have experienced it is being used in place of lecture. Yes we still have lectures, but they don't teach us a lot of the material and expect us to get it from PBL. This is not over irrelavent information either. During our histology course we came to the lecture on dentin and our profs into to the lecture was "You have already seen this in PBL so I'm just going to hit a couple of highlights." The lecture lasted only 20 min or so and most of that was worthless. This is not the only time this has happened. We spend more time trying to find the information that we need to learn than learning it. The stuff that it takes hours to find online or in books they could teach us in a short lecture. Not to mention half of the time the research people bring in is half understood bits and pieces at best, and a lot of the time it's just flat out wrong.

Once again I am not against the idea of PBL...If given in a grand rounds, apply your knowledge that you have, type of format, but it should not be used to supplement important subject material that the school doesn't want to teach.

This is just my experience and 2 cents.
 
ShawnOne said:
Being a student in USC's PBL program is like running your own business. You dont work for your instructor and your job isn't memorizing all the ridiculous details so your can pass the quizes and not get fired. You work for yourself (and your group), and the goal is to understand what is happening to your patient in the case. For those who are self-motivated, this is a dream situation. But not all people work the same and some people just prefer having the boss tell them what to do.

Here are my top 5 ways to know if you'd like USC PBL.

5) If you enjoy reading your physiology book, you'd probably like USC PBL

4) If you find yourself visiting this website regularly, then you'd probably like USC PBL.

3) If you've ever worked as a tutor, you'd probably like USC PBL.

2) If you space out in lecture and understand the material by reading the book/notes at home, you'd probably like USC PBL.

and finally the number 1 way to know if you'd like USC PBL...

If you have a copy of dental-town in your bathroom, you'd probably like USC PBL

your 1-5 step of screening for PBL fit ...you are kidding right? because i dont get it.
However, all i can say about PBL ItsGavin is correct from the students' position, but from the schools' shoes it is better to have a PBL system than regular lecture based education.why??? This is due to the fact that it cost more money to make a dentist than any other doctoral prof. out there. Therefore, PBL can save a lot of $$$$$$$ to d-schools.
some of you may be asking how..... i am not going to answer. figure it out
 
aceking said:
This is due to the fact that it cost more money to make a dentist than any other doctoral prof. out there. Therefore, PBL can save a lot of $$$$$$$ to d-schools.
some of you may be asking how..... i am not going to answer. figure it out

Huh?
 
ShawnOne said:
Being a student in USC's PBL program is like running your own business. You dont work for your instructor and your job isn't memorizing all the ridiculous details so your can pass the quizes and not get fired. You work for yourself (and your group), and the goal is to understand what is happening to your patient in the case. For those who are self-motivated, this is a dream situation. But not all people work the same and some people just prefer having the boss tell them what to do.

Here are my top 5 ways to know if you'd like USC PBL.

5) If you enjoy reading your physiology book, you'd probably like USC PBL

4) If you find yourself visiting this website regularly, then you'd probably like USC PBL.

3) If you've ever worked as a tutor, you'd probably like USC PBL.

2) If you space out in lecture and understand the material by reading the book/notes at home, you'd probably like USC PBL.

and finally the number 1 way to know if you'd like USC PBL...

If you have a copy of dental-town in your bathroom, you'd probably like USC PBL

Oh my god, I fit every single category here except I don't enjoy reading Physiology book. I kinda regret now I didn't apply to USC.
 
If you are a very intelligent person and a hard worker, you should not go to IU, because of the pbl program. (Unless you have no other choice). I can’t speak for the other pbl programs. The hours are just wasted there (in pbl at IU). Everyone has to say SOMETHING during pbl or they will fail, but it doesn’t really count WHAT they say. So, you basically are listening to babbling about nothing for 9 😕 hours per week. I am sincerely trying to prevent anyone who is irritated by wasted time from becoming extremely frustrated. There are some things that you HAVE to learn during dental school. There is only so much time to do it in, and wasting precious time, when you could actually be learning from an expert (or at least studying – maybe even unwinding) is not my cup of tea. I survived it, but I will never get that time back. I had to study my butt off to do well on the boards part I, because so much material was neglected due to pbl. (It was not presented in class, because we were supposed to have learned so much during pbl).
 
and there are a few reasons why.

First, it has to do with my personality. I sit and think before I answer anything. That's kind of a no-no in PBL. You are expected to kind of just blurt things out. Other people were inclined this way and also just naturally very verbal....hence I was drowned out. I just don't think so fast. Also, I'm not a group type person. I work and learn best alone or with just one other person.

Second, I don't think it's efficient. At UConn, during the first year, we are overwhelmingly busy with tons and tons of material that we will be questioned on in detail come exam time. Spending six hours per week to review a miniscule portion of the curriculum in detail didn't work for me.....or anyone else that I know of. I was constantly behind (although I ended up in the second quintile examwise).

Third, considering the cases we were given for PBL in first year, only one of them was truly practical and memorable because it was dentally oriented. Knowing the structure of an RBC intimatley, for example, just ain't practical when you are planning to be a dentist. You need to learn to be a dentist.

I've heard that some schools have become entirely PBL, and are trying to eliminate lecture based learning. This is ridiculous and certainly would have robbed me of a lot of learning. Schools need to stop and look at just how much we need to learn and think about the fact that there are only 24 hours in a day and you just don't have the time to sit around coming up with all the information on your own. There is way way too much to learn.

However, at UConn, "PBL" is only first year. We also have something called "Critical Thinking in Dentistry" which is PBL-like, but the cases are dentally based and the intensity greatly decreased. During second year at UConn, which is still pretty heavy material wise, doing CTID was tough, but I can say that I think I benefitted from it. In third and fourth year I think I continue to benefit from CTID.
 
I'm with you on this Sommy.....you never get the time back. In the meantime they've experimented with our education and we've come up the losers. Time is precious and it could have been spent in numerous more productive ways, including taking much needed breaks.

Sommy said:
If you are a very intelligent person and a hard worker, you should not go to IU, because of the pbl program. (Unless you have no other choice). I can’t speak for the other pbl programs. The hours are just wasted there (in pbl at IU). Everyone has to say SOMETHING during pbl or they will fail, but it doesn’t really count WHAT they say. So, you basically are listening to babbling about nothing for 9 😕 hours per week. I am sincerely trying to prevent anyone who is irritated by wasted time from becoming extremely frustrated. There are some things that you HAVE to learn during dental school. There is only so much time to do it in, and wasting precious time, when you could actually be learning from an expert (or at least studying – maybe even unwinding) is not my cup of tea. I survived it, but I will never get that time back. I had to study my butt off to do well on the boards part I, because so much material was neglected due to pbl. (It was not presented in class, because we were supposed to have learned so much during pbl).
 
USC students..!!!!!!

What do the students at USC school think of PBL..??? :idea:
since their school is also based on it..
any thoughts
tz :luck:

MsPurtell said:
I'm with you on this Sommy.....you never get the time back. In the meantime they've experimented with our education and we've come up the losers. Time is precious and it could have been spent in numerous more productive ways, including taking much needed breaks.
 
I agree with MsPurtell,

Im a HSDM student and we had hybrid-PBL (lectures plus tutorials) in the first two years of medical school and later in 3 and 4 year of dental. In general PBL is a waste of time. You spend hours searching superfluous research articles and summarized handbooks that do not cover information in enough detail....then you have to spend hours listening to your classmates talk about it too. Including the guy that brings a manuscript to show off to the attending faculty. GRRRRRRR

In my opinion PBL would be good once you have solid knowledge about a subject. For me neither lectures nor PBL work. I rather read the textbook myself, give me the time to read it, give me an evaluation and Ill retain the knowledge without memorizing lines and lines in slides nor wasting my time searching PUBMED

My 2 cents.
 
Problem Based Learning SUCKS. Most of the students just google, pubmed looking for the answers then copy and paste! Even the professors know it. Most of them just sit there and pretend that they're interested. Every group seems to have one of those over analyzer, pita students who usually have page after page of papers for one question. You can't never shut them up either.
 
Toothzone said:
USC students..!!!!!!

What do the students at USC school think of PBL..??? :idea:
since their school is also based on it..
any thoughts
tz :luck:


It's good and bad. Their are a wide variety of people in the program. Some people don't give damn and hardly learn anything. In this progam you can do that and still graduate (even though it does make life hard for yourself), accountability is lax. Others work hard because they want to gain the knowledge. These people will be extremely good dentists because pbl helps you to learn the material in context. That means that you not only have knowledge but you also have a better idea of where and when its applicable. The down side is that it can be very frustrating because the process is very time consuming. Your first year you will be in case three times a week and spend between 3 and 5 hours in case. You will then spend 3-5 hours researching a writing your paper three times a week. Finally, you have to read all of the rest of the papers written by your group ( a total of 8 papers between 6-15 pages)three times a week. The time spent reading the papers from you group can take 8 - 10 hours. So if your really working hard and are putting in your time, pbl can take about 60 hours out of your life per week. On top of that, your are going to find that you need to spend extra time learning on your own because you will come across concepts that you don't completely understand while reading the papers from your group. You still have labs and rotations. All of this is why USC is a year round school AND its a four year program. Finally its frustrating because of the amount of money that you are spending to go to this school to teach yourselves the basic sciences. On the upside, you will sometimes have a facilitator who is extremely compitent in the particular case that you are studying; for instance a case that is heavy on microbiology and your facilitator is doing research in microbiology.
 
anyone know which schools are pbl? (usc obviously)
 
lgreen_aci said:
anyone know which schools are pbl? (usc obviously)

Harvard
 
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