Any thoughts on SPU's program?

[bluewall22]

Hello,

I tried to look up a thread on this school but the last one was from 2014 and I was hoping for more recent feedback. I was accepted into Seattle Pacific University's Clinical Psychology Ph.D. program earlier in March. Their APA-accredited internship match rates were 92% for the last year(but 100% in the previous years) and overall licensure percentage is 88%. The program is six years long. My research interests match okay with my POI. However, I am hesitant to accept the offer because the tuition is high, at 40k per year. It's been difficult to find any information about this program online so I was wondering if anyone knows what their Clinical Psychology program is really like? If it is worth taking on the debt? How does this program compare to others? My undergraduate adviser thinks I should accept the offer as it was the only school I got into but I wanted to know if there are other perspectives on this offer.

Thank you!

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[Temperance]

However, I am hesitant to accept the offer because the tuition is high, at 40k per year.

Did they not offer you an assistantship?

Calculating from their quote of $851 per credit at 195 total credits, you are looking at a cost of $165,945 on tuition alone. If you took out federal student loans at 6.8% interest and used a repayment term of 25 years, then you would be paying back $1,214.63 per month (and thus need a salary of $145,755 to afford that monthly payment). That isn't yet accounting for the cost of living in Seattle. Others can pitch in about how much a practicing psychologist makes, but this kind of debt burden will prevent you from doing things later in life that you might want to do, like purchasing a home or having a family.

You don't necessarily have to accept this offer just because it's the only one that you got. If there are things that you can improve in your application, like scoring higher on the GRE or getting more research experience (e.g., more first-authored poster presentations, doing an undergraduate thesis), then it might be worth re-applying to programs that are fully funded. Most Ph.D. programs offer tuition waiver and stipend.

 

[bluewall22]

Did they not offer you an assistantship?

Calculating from their quote of $851 per credit at 195 total credits, you are looking at a cost of $165,945 on tuition alone. If you took out federal student loans at 6.8% interest and used a repayment term of 25 years, then you would be paying back $1,214.63 per month (and thus need a salary of $145,755 to afford that monthly payment). That isn't yet accounting for the cost of living in Seattle. Others can pitch in about how much a practicing psychologist makes, but this kind of debt burden will prevent you from doing things later in life that you might want to do, like purchasing a home or having a family.

You don't necessarily have to accept this offer just because it's the only one that you got. If there are things that you can improve in your application, like scoring higher on the GRE or getting more research experience (e.g., more first-authored poster presentations, doing an undergraduate thesis), then it might be worth re-applying to programs that are fully funded. Most Ph.D. programs offer tuition waiver and stipend.

Thank you for your help! They're only waiving $5,000 of the tuition per year. I can definitely improve my application by getting more involved in research as I don't have many presentations or any publications. I'm just conflicted because I know how competitive Ph.D programs are and I'm worried that if I decline this offer, I'll regret it if I don't get accepted into any schools in the next cycle or so. In addition, is it possible to do a master's degree to gain more research experiences?

 

[Phillyitzik]

Thank you for your help! They're only waiving $5,000 of the tuition per year. I can definitely improve my application by getting more involved in research as I don't have many presentations or any publications. I'm just conflicted because I know how competitive Ph.D programs are and I'm worried that if I decline this offer, I'll regret it if I don't get accepted into any schools in the next cycle or so. In addition, is it possible to do a master's degree to gain more research experiences?

Yes it is possible. I obtained my masters, which gave me the opportunities needed to boost my CV and I was able to get into several fully funded R1 programs this year.

From my experience on this forum, you will get a lot of people in the field or in different programs telling you the same thing. If you can, don’t go and re apply next year. Getting into a funded program is hard but worth it overall. Maybe you just need to expand your program searches or be an RA for a year.

 

[PsyDr]

I walked by that place once. Weird building, weird placement.

 

[szymk1sm]

Thank you for your help! They're only waiving $5,000 of the tuition per year. I can definitely improve my application by getting more involved in research as I don't have many presentations or any publications. I'm just conflicted because I know how competitive Ph.D programs are and I'm worried that if I decline this offer, I'll regret it if I don't get accepted into any schools in the next cycle or so. In addition, is it possible to do a master's degree to gain more research experiences?

Anecdotal evidence, but I did not get into clinical psych PhD programs my first time applying (instead did a research master's). The second time I applied, I was offered a spot at a non-APA accredited program (declined) and was waitlisted at my dream school (ended up not getting the offer). The third time I applied, I was waitlisted at my dream school (without an offer in the end). The fourth time I applied, I also widened my search and applied to public health PhD programs. I was offered admission to a public health program and my dream school (accepted the dream school offer - went back to school in my late 20s).

All this is to say is that 1) interests can change over time and working (as a volunteer or paid RA) can help you identify / broaden your interests and 2) persistence is key - had I given up and / or not worked towards improving my application along the way, I would not be finishing up fellowship now and starting my first "real job" in the fall.

Just because you have an offer does not mean that you need to take it. Realistically look over your application and identify your weaknesses - are these areas that you can improve over the next one or two years? If the answer is yes, then you may want to consider reapplying in the future when you have a stronger application and are more competitive for PhD programs.

As someone who has a lot of debt from undergrad, but who went to a fully funded PhD program -- those student loan payments SUCK and put a damper on your ability to save for a housing down payment, buy a new car, travel, etc. So choose wisely!

 

[DynamicDidactic]

The biggest disadvantage is cost. Otherwise, it isn't a large cohort, it is an actual university, and internship match rates and EPPP pass rates are fine (though EPPP can be a bit higher). I don't think there is a stigma for the program or its students. I believe they require traditional dissertations.

However, the costs issue shouldn't be taken lightly and Seattle is a pricey place to live. It is also a very competitive internship area, in case you wanted to stick around.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

My undergraduate adviser thinks I should accept the offer as it was the only school I got into but I wanted to know if there are other perspectives on this offer.

Is your advisor a clinical psychologist? Did they graduate recently? This is surprising advice.

I would advise the opposite for my undergrads. Getting accepted into one program is a good sign that you can get into another, especially if you take some more time to beef up your CV, update your materials, and apply to a diversity of funded programs.

Are you regionally restricted?
How many schools did you apply to this time?
Have you been overly restrictive in your advisors based on research match?

 

[bluewall22]

Is your advisor a clinical psychologist? Did they graduate recently? This is surprising advice.

I would advise the opposite for my undergrads. Getting accepted into one program is a good sign that you can get into another, especially if you take some more time to beef up your CV, update your materials, and apply to a diversity of funded programs.

Are you regionally restricted?
How many schools did you apply to this time?
Have you been overly restrictive in your advisors based on research match?

Yes, she's a clinical psychologist and she graduated a while back, I believe sometime in the 1970s/80s? I'm not regionally restricted, I applied to 10 schools across the country and received interviews at two schools, one being this school and the other being Nova Southeastern University. I was waitlisted at Nova but accepted into their Psy.D program, which they said was the same as their Ph.D. program regarding research and clinical training. I'm not interested in their program because of the large cohort, it's about 80ish students. And, I don't believe I've been overly restrictive but the opposite, I think I'm a little all over the place with my research interests currently.

 

[bluewall22]

Thank you all for your responses and your help, I have more clarity now as to what to do! The cost is definitely a huge factor. I did have one more question regarding the RA position, how long do people typically work in a lab to gain presentations, and possibly publications? And is it unusual to ask professors to volunteer in their labs if you did not attend the university where they work?

 

[Temperance]

Thank you all for your responses and your help, I have more clarity now as to what to do! The cost is definitely a huge factor. I did have one more question regarding the RA position, how long do people typically work in a lab to gain presentations, and possibly publications? And is it unusual to ask professors to volunteer in their labs if you did not attend the university where they work?

I'll answer your previous question, too.

Many post-baccalaureate research assistant positions are funded for about two years, so a lot of applicants work for a couple of years before they go to graduate school, applying after they've finished their first year of work. The time to get presentations or publications depends on the lab; some labs will have you involved in writing as part of the job, and other labs will ask you to take that initiative yourself by proposing a research question that can be answered using the data that the lab has and then presenting the work yourself (with guidance). It's not that unusual to volunteer in labs that are not in your university. That said, if you already have some research experience, then you can potentially get a full-time, paid position (e.g., like these), which is a typical way to get more research experience and exposure while being paid to do it, as opposed to volunteering.

Getting a master's degree is one way to get additional research experience, but it comes with the caveat that master's programs tend to be not funded. If you have a reasonably good GPA (3.4+) and sufficient coursework in psychology, then a master's degree is strictly not necessary. What the master's degree offers is additional years of advanced coursework -- that may or may not transfer to your eventual Ph.D. program -- additional years of working in a lab (which you can do with a paid position anyway), and the opportunity to do a master's thesis. I've known of students who benefited from doing the master's, but I've also known more students who went on to a Ph.D. program without the master's.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

@bluewall22
Good call on Nova.
70s/80s is a long time ago. It seems your advisor may be a bit out of touch.
Not uncommon to work in a lab outside of your school
Getting more presentations or author opportunities will greatly vary based on your lab, how the lab is progressing on research projects, your initiative and role, and the lab PI.

 

[PsyDr]

@bluewall22 @DynamicDidactic is right.

That type of advice was how I wound up in an experimental phd program, where I lasted all of a few weeks. Turns out that a clinical professor who graduated in the 1970s did not have up to date advice, and the experimental psychology professors did not have great insight into clinical psychology program admissions. The next cycle, being a drop out was a significant obstacle for admissions.

And I might not have been the most diplomatic in how I dropped out.

 

[Seven_Costanza]

And is it unusual to ask professors to volunteer in their labs if you did not attend the university where they work?

I went to a small liberal arts college with very limited research opportunities so I reached out to faculty (and lab managers) at a local R01 university, wrote a thoughtful email asking about volunteer opportunities, and then followed up after I didn't hear back. I then got a few hits and was working in an awesome lab shortly after. I also worked at another lab before graduate school that took lots of students from other nearby programs. Put yourself out there!

 

[Sanman]

I went to a small liberal arts college with very limited research opportunities so I reached out to faculty (and lab managers) at a local R01 university, wrote a thoughtful email asking about volunteer opportunities, and then followed up after I didn't hear back. I then got a few hits and was working in an awesome lab shortly after. I also worked at another lab before graduate school that took lots of students from other nearby programs. Put yourself out there!

Agreed with this. I went to a university with many research labs and one of them often took students from other universities over the summer as lab assistants. COVID-19 aside, now is the time to start approaching faculty.

 

[beginner2011]

Anecdotally: I have crossed paths with graduates from SPU and they all seem to have been well-trained and personable professional psychologists.

As others have mentioned:

1. Taking on substantial debt is a significant financial risk that can have severe consequences in the long-term. It is wise to be thoughtful about taking this risk.

2. It's possible that you actually don't want to be a clinical psychologist. It's better to find this out before you take on financial risks. It would be wise to work in a research lab with graduate students and early career clinical psychologists if you don't have that experience yet. In my opinion it's essential.

 

[bluewall22]

Thank you all so much for your help! I think I have a plan now of what to do next!

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Thank you all so much for your help! I think I have a plan now of what to do next!

Curious, what is that?