Anybody else frustrated with their gross group?

[dtreese]

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My gross group has developed the habit of trying harder to get out of lab than to learn. The last few times, everybody left before we did everything. Today, I was reviewing by myself, and there were several structures we had never gotten to. I dissected out the deep circumflex iliac vessels after everybody else left. Our lumbar nerves were about half dissected, so I stayed and worked on those and other structures until about 6. I wanted a night off as much as everybody else, but damned if I'm going to miss something because I was too lazy to see it. No, if I'm going to miss something on the practical, it's going to be because I'm too stupid to remember 5 bajillion structures.

 

[Megalofyia]

How important IS gross lab? Would you not be able to get the same information from a combination of books, notes, someone else's procection, pictures? This is a purely out of curiousity question.

 

[dtreese]

Well, it's pretty damn important for the practicals. Book learnin' just isn't the same. Also, you REALLY remember what you dissect. When you spend 10 minutes finding an artery and another 20-30 minutes carefully cleaning it all the way along it's path, you will remember its course with crystal clarity.

In the end, you have to be skilled in the lab AND know your text/notes. Slack off on the text, and you're screwed on the written. Slack off in lab, and you're screwed on the practical.

 

[donnyfire]

For me, lab is THE most important way to learn anatomy. If I dissect a structure, I remember what it is, where it is, what it is near, and what it does. I personally cannot just pick it up from reading it in a book. I need to be actively learning the material.

That said, every one learns differently. So lab time may not be as productive for some people.

As far as being frustrated with your group, I can't relate. My lab partners rock. Booyakasha!!!

 

[dtreese]

I guess the other part is that you need to get experience with the textures and variations in bodies BEFORE you deal with living people. It really is true that your cadaver is your first patient and the information you learn from that patient will help you treat all your future patients.

 

[Gerg]

My gross group has developed the habit of trying harder to get out of lab than to learn. The last few times, everybody left before we did everything. Today, I was reviewing by myself, and there were several structures we had never gotten to. I dissected out the deep circumflex iliac vessels after everybody else left. Our lumbar nerves were about half dissected, so I stayed and worked on those and other structures until about 6. I wanted a night off as much as everybody else, but damned if I'm going to miss something because I was too lazy to see it. No, if I'm going to miss something on the practical, it's going to be because I'm too stupid to remember 5 bajillion structures.

How many people are in your gross group? are you sure you're not going above and beyond the call of duty? Was it happy hour? Why didn't you want to go to happy hour?

 

[celticmists18]

I don't care what anyone else says, but you CANNOT learn gross anatomy they way you need to know it from books, computer programs or a prof's pre-dissected cadaver. Netter (or any atlas) is color coded and even photographic atlases show you everything after some poor med student has picked away ever single itty-bitty piece of fasica. You need to learn how to hunt for stuff yourself . . . better to do it now on a cadaver than learn it in surgery with a living breathing person


QUOTE=Megalofyia]How important IS gross lab? Would you not be able to get the same information from a combination of books, notes, someone else's procection, pictures? This is a purely out of curiousity question.[/QUOTE]

 

[sambo]

Sounds a little gunnerish to me. Doing the dissections was a huge waste of time and energy. I learned abosolutely nothing until two days before the practical when I came to the lab and and looked at the completed dissections on the better cadavers. Our cadaver was horrible (elderly, skinny, and impossible to see anything on). I made an A, so I guess it worked out.

P.S. You'll forget most of that stuff and have to relearn it anyway, so relax. 👍

 

[Paws]

Well, I had so much unhappiness with my gross group that I asked to switch. Now I love my new group and I am learning tons.

I was not learning anything with the first group, not because they rushed out but because they were there all freakin' afternoon futzing round. 🙄 It was excruciating and I couldn't take all the chatter.

I want to learn as much as anyone, but this is business and we have to work hard to find these veins, nerves and whatnot. I don't have all day to do it, either.

 

[Chemguync]

It really is true that your cadaver is your first patient and the information you learn from that patient will help you treat all your future patients.

If that's true, I've killed the HELL out of my first patient several times.

 

[JMC_MarineCorps]

Sounds a little gunnerish to me. Doing the dissections was a huge waste of time and energy. I learned abosolutely nothing until two days before the practical when I came to the lab and and looked at the completed dissections on the better cadavers.

P.S. You'll forget most of that stuff and have to relearn it anyway, so relax. 👍

Sounds pretty accurate to me.

 

[John Deere Gree]

Sounds a little gunnerish to me. Doing the dissections was a huge waste of time and energy. I learned abosolutely nothing until two days before the practical when I came to the lab and and looked at the completed dissections on the better cadavers. Our cadaver was horrible (elderly, skinny, and impossible to see anything on). I made an A, so I guess it worked out.

P.S. You'll forget most of that stuff and have to relearn it anyway, so relax. 👍

So true...

My gross group is pretty cool. We have a gal that does most of the dissection, but that's because she friggin' rocks. The rest of us stand around and help out if needbe. I often stand back and read netter's or the disection guide to knwo the structures. When they find somethign I need to know we point it out. If we have time at the end of the lab period we'll quiz each other.

 

[dankev]

If that's true, I've killed the HELL out of my first patient several times.

Word. On monday, I split his whole body at L2/L3, then chopped the remaining lumbar/sacrum/pelvis (along w/ all the soft structures) in half with the bone saw. Let's just say I have a little to learn before I start doing surgery. Uh oh. I hope I didn't just violate HIPPA.

To the OP, sorry. That's a bummer, but you can always look at some of the other cadavers instead. Just find the gunner tables, and spend a few minutes with one after your partners head off.

I've just got to say, my lab partners rock. And they all have a good sense of humor (thank god).

 

[Tiki]

I don't think you are a gunner. I learn by looking at the cadaver as well. I'm lucky that for the most part my anatomy group is pretty cool, but if they weren't dissecting everything that needs to be done, I'd be annoyed.

And for the people who say that you can learn from Rohen's or the prosected bodies--when the practical questions are taking place on student dissected bodies, it is NOT a good idea spend all of your energy learning the prosection. It is too perfect in comparison to where your test questions will be coming from.

 

[Chronotropic]

How can people talk about being gunnerish when all he did was stay and do the work his group was supposed to do?

 

[Sean2tall]

Although it's important to know how to dissect yourself, I think it's a little overrated to personally do everything, or even for your group to do every single thing. After you have dissected a couple of nerves, you know what a nerve is like. Now if you hit up the Netter, you can figure out the placement of a bunch of nerves in the time it takes to dissect one or two. Then you can hit up the other cadavers where they have dissected those nerves better than you and -bam- you've got the best of both worlds. (And of course other groups can see the ones that you have done well.) I haven't gone back to spend any extra time in the lab outside of class.

 

[mooklyster]

i too was in a bit of a similar situation, but it focused around one guy. the rest of the group just scattered to other groups where we felt comfortable. Not necessarily the most polite of things, but in the grand scheme, you have to do what makes you comfortable enough to learn this crap. It all worked out in the end, and by doing so, the members were able to remain at least on speaking terms...hahaha. Sometimes groups styles just dont mesh. no big deal, just dont turn it in to one and everything will be fine. even the TA's understand that.

 

[Howard Roark]

How important IS gross lab? Would you not be able to get the same information from a combination of books, notes, someone else's procection, pictures? This is a purely out of curiousity question.

Important. But there is definitely a point of diminishing returns. I would not recommend spending 4 hours to find one nerve that you could see on the instructor's or TA's cadaver. Good luck.


.

 

[LukeWhite]

I guess the other part is that you need to get experience with the textures and variations in bodies BEFORE you deal with living people. It really is true that your cadaver is your first patient and the information you learn from that patient will help you treat all your future patients.

In my experience, studying from the body was about half as efficient as studying from Rohen and dissection videos. Some schools have abandoned dissection altogether in favor of prosections. Gross lab is 95% busywork that could be better spent elsewhere.

The fact of the matter is that no one cares about the variation in Tiny Structure X, and if you're hoping to get experience with textures, an uber-embalmed, dessicated corpse is not your best option.

Different folks have different ways to learn, and if you learn best through the cadaver, more power to you. But for the sake of your labmates, as well as your own reputation as an easygoing person, you should probably lay off the indignation a bit. There's a lot of talk about how sacred the experience is for med students, how crucial it is to future patient interactions, etc., but all that's got a high hype to truth ratio. You don't necessarily have to agree, but don't chain your poor labmates to the table over pedagogical differences of opinion.

http://www.anatomy.wisc.edu/courses/gross/
It takes an expert to dissect things in a really helpful way--let them do the work for you!

 

[cdreed]

In my experience, studying from the body was about half as efficient as studying from Rohen and dissection videos. Some schools have abandoned dissection altogether in favor of prosections. Gross lab is 95% busywork that could be better spent elsewhere.

The fact of the matter is that no one cares about the variation in Tiny Structure X, and if you're hoping to get experience with textures, an uber-embalmed, dessicated corpse is not your best option.

Different folks have different ways to learn, and if you learn best through the cadaver, more power to you. But for the sake of your labmates, as well as your own reputation as an easygoing person, you should probably lay off the indignation a bit. There's a lot of talk about how sacred the experience is for med students, how crucial it is to future patient interactions, etc., but all that's got a high hype to truth ratio. You don't necessarily have to agree, but don't chain your poor labmates to the table over pedagogical differences of opinion.

http://www.anatomy.wisc.edu/courses/gross/
It takes an expert to dissect things in a really helpful way--let them do the work for you!

Agreed. As a MSII that has successfully completed Anatomy, I would have to say that I benefitted the most from my Rohen atlas, not the time in lab. I gathered more high yield info in a much more condensed time frame when I studied from cadaveric photos.

 

[rgporter]

In my experience, studying from the body was about half as efficient as studying from Rohen and dissection videos. Some schools have abandoned dissection altogether in favor of prosections. Gross lab is 95% busywork that could be better spent elsewhere....!

I'm split on this. I think that the two are very complimentary, I can't learn well without both. I do find it incredibly annoying clearing away 8 tons of adipose tissue while simultaneously trying to preserve delicate structures like nerves and small arteries. On the other hand a structure does tend to stick in my mind better after I spend hours finding and cleaning it.

I think it's sad that some of my lab partners are more concerned with getting out early for free pizza than they are with maximizing what is quite possibly a once in a lifetime experience.

http://www.anatomy.wisc.edu/courses/gross/
It takes an expert to dissect things in a really helpful way--let them do the work for you!

Thanks.

 

[efex101]

Remember that the reason some folks may be leaving is because they do NOT lear the same way that you do. I do enjoy gross anatomy and dissection BUT for me to learn what is goin on FIRST I have to know it cold from the notes and the atlases then and only then does it make sense to me when I actually look at it. So yes some folks learn it as they do it and will never forget X or Y structure but for many of us first we learn it elsewhere and then we can learn it on the cadaver. At my school there is no option to leave prior to everyone being done regadless of when you get done...

 

[Swiper]

...free pizza...

Wait, when and where?

 

[dtreese]

Different folks have different ways to learn, and if you learn best through the cadaver, more power to you. But for the sake of your labmates, as well as your own reputation as an easygoing person, you should probably lay off the indignation a bit. There's a lot of talk about how sacred the experience is for med students, how crucial it is to future patient interactions, etc., but all that's got a high hype to truth ratio. You don't necessarily have to agree, but don't chain your poor labmates to the table over pedagogical differences of opinion.

I think you're assuming a little bit. I'm not going into lab and acting all pissy. I let everybody leave without saying a word. Just because I'm frustrated doesn't mean that I'm going to make things tense for everybody else. If anything, our group is starting to develop a reputation as slackers.

Bright side: I made this morning abdomen review day, and some other people from my class were doing the same. We went around to about eight different bodies and went through it all. Very satisfying.

Some people do well with prosections. We don't even have those. Some people do well sticking to the books. Some people do well just going to the lab. Personally, I like to read the notes, then go to the lab and correlate the notes with the real thing. Since that's what works for me, that's why I get frustrated when something's left half done. And when I say it's left half done, I mean we miss some pretty major stuff. As for just mooching off of other bodies, when bodies have things that aren't dissected out, the profs dissect those parts for the practical, so you can be guaranteed never to have seen it before. It also puts them in bad moods, and they make the practical harder.

Quite honestly, if I'm a gunner, I don't care. I'm interested in the material, and I want to learn it. I'm not a backstabber, and I'm not competing with other people. I just want to be the best student I can be. Part of that was taking a frikkin break tonight. It was nice, too.

 

[LukeWhite]

All of which are fine things, and more power to you. It's when you start putting expectations on others that it starts to get to be a problem. I'm in what I consider to be an exceptionally wonderful class, but there are a few people who seem to make life difficult for the class as a whole, and they invariably do so by dragging the class or their group along on whatever knowledge trip they happen to be on.

There is almost nothing more annoying than someone who monopolizes class or review time for specific questions that don't really benefit the general class. One of the things that IS more annoying is someone who makes unnecessary demands on your time. I'd say you're entitled to have your lab partners fully collaborate during lab, but if they can get out early without losing points, A+ for them.

In any case, you should be glad if practical end up harder--class rank is where it's at, and you'll surely separate yourself out a bit more from the curve on a hard practical as opposed to an easy one if you study well. Admirable that you're not nasty to your labmates; just don't expect *too* much sympathy when you vent that slight passive aggression on a forum full of people who have had similar lab partners.

Rohen, videos, and free pizza, man...therein lies the good life.

 

[Bad Mojo]

Do all schools assign groups for anatomy lab? It seems like by letting people pick groups, everyone could customize their lab experience however they want. I'm kind of the good-natured slacker of my group, partly due to my nature and partly due to my out-of-lab learning habits. It seems that a group of people like me could come in, dig around a bit, and leave with enough time to hit the books. That way, the more focused people of my group (who I frustrate every time) could go to whatever depth and detail that they want.