Anybody else happy with what they'll make?

[JoshUNCW]

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I've gotten so fed up with people b'ing and moaning on SDN about how they're going to be poor. "Obama is ruining us all." "It's not worth it." "The smart people never go to med school." It's really old. As if we haven't already read it in 40 other threads by 100 other people. It's just unnecessary.

But I know I'm not the only one who doesn't care. And to people in med school/residency, don't bother telling me how ignorant I am and how my mood will change once I get to M3 or start working resident hours. I've heard that before too, by 100 other people in 40 other threads.

Does an artist live his life in a small studio apartment, never making it big, but creating art, because he wants to be miserable? Did he do it for the money? Or did he want to make art. He's not going to be able to give his family everything. Maybe he won't even have enough money to support a family on his own. But someone doesn't go into art to do all that. But let's also not pretend that a doctor is going to be a starving artist, ok? Let's pretend we're all smarter than that.

Isn't it possible some of us want to go to med school. We want to be residents. We just want to be doctors. The money isn't the motivation here people. I understand for some of you it is, and I'm not judging you. I think money is a perfectly acceptable reason to go into a profession. But maybe if you do want to make a lot of money and you feel like you wont.... you just should leave SDN and stop pursuing medicine now. Cause you're obviously hurt about much of your life you're giving up and how much money you'll make.

Who else is fine with the money and really wishes people would just stop beating the dead horse?

 

[willen101383]

I am not fine with the prospect of the government controlling my salary...but I think its useless to b!tch about it on SDN constantly. Most people here are like a decade or more out from being an attending...so lets see how the next ten years shape up before we get all huffy puffy over salaries. I plan on making my money other ways...i.e. investment anyway.

 

[Law2Doc]

I've gotten so fed up with people b'ing and moaning on SDN about how they're going to be poor. "Obama is ruining us all." "It's not worth it." "The smart people never go to med school." It's really old. As if we haven't already read it in 40 other threads by 100 other people. It's just unnecessary.

But I know I'm not the only one who doesn't care. And to people in med school/residency, don't bother telling me how ignorant I am and how my mood will change once I get to M3 or start working resident hours. I've heard that before too, by 100 other people in 40 other threads.

Does an artist live his life in a small studio apartment, never making it big, but creating art, because he wants to be miserable? Did he do it for the money? Or did he want to make art. He's not going to be able to give his family everything. Maybe he won't even have enough money to support a family on his own. But someone doesn't go into art to do all that. But let's also not pretend that a doctor is going to be a starving artist, ok? Let's pretend we're all smarter than that.

Isn't it possible some of us want to go to med school. We want to be residents. We just want to be doctors. The money isn't the motivation here people. I understand for some of you it is, and I'm not judging you. I think money is a perfectly acceptable reason to go into a profession. But maybe if you do want to make a lot of money and you feel like you wont.... you just should leave SDN and stop pursuing medicine now. Cause you're obviously hurt about much of your life you're giving up and how much money you'll make.

Who else is fine with the money and really wishes people would just stop beating the dead horse?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with not being in it for the money. In fact, that's the right way to pursue a career -- pick something you enjoy or find interesting first, something you can see getting up and going to for 60+ hours/week every week for the next 4 decades. The money itself is a perquisite, not the reason you go into a professional career.

However, many on this path are going to, including college debt, take out 200+k in student loan debt, which will increase during residency. And will forego income for over a decade during school and training. So it's not unreasonable that there is some salary expectation below which it may not be "worth it". So if the Obama plan ends up increasing hours and decreases salaries of physicians, as some suggest it will, and leads to direct competition by DNPs and other ancillary professionals, as seems to be starting, leading to a smaller cut of the pie, while at the same time medmal liability insurance continues to be a huge practice cost... well you probably get the point. You can be totally no about the money and still hope for some degree of financial security, and get upset when that gets attacked. The artist comparison is silly -- this dude doesn't have debt, doesn't have to forego his dreams for over a decade, doesn't have to undergo 80 hour work weeks during residency. He just works at Kinkos for a few shifts a week and spends the rest on art supplies. On paper, a "starving artist" with no debt is many times better off financially than a resident earning $45k a year for the next 7 years while his $250k in student loans accumulates interest. So if there's no payoff at the end of that 7 years, that's problematic.

 

[seelee]

Don't worry, your mood will change once you get a little more experience.

Show me a single "starving artist" who had to spend 4 years in undergrad taking the hardest courses, graduating near the top of the class, followed by yet another minimum 7 years of abuse + a quarter million dollars of debt before anyone would let him hold a brush, much less sell a painting.

Show me a single artist who is required to provide free paintings to people who really want them, but have no intention to pay.

Show me a single artist who is forbidden to sell his paintings at the market rate, but rather must accept pennies on the dollar from the federal government and wait 12 months for the check.

Despite the inanity of your post, it is charming to hear the ramblings of someone so full of **** that their eyes are brown.

 

[Hoody]

me.

 

[auburnO5]

I feel the same way as you do, OP.

Sure, I guess I could have gone into engineering or something and made a decent living, but I would be miserable doing that for the rest of my life.

I could have gone into business, worked my *** off and hopefully get lucky and make a good salary, but again, I would be miserable doing that. I will be perfectly fine making $200k a year doing something that I find challenging and interesting and that I enjoy doing. Even if it does mean paying off student loans well into my 30's.

 

[NightSwim]

I think you see a lot of people b****ing about physicians' salaries on sdn b/c it's a practicle outlet for this. Depending on the context, you probably can't have a similar conversation in real life without sounding conceited.

Lots of aspiring physicians are like you OP. Lots are not.

 

[NightSwim]

Also, a good portion of the posts you are referring to involve someone trying to push a political agenda. Sometimes it's hard to differentiate these posts from the people who are trying to have a legitimate discussion about the financial aspect of training to become a physician

 

[JoshUNCW]

Don't worry, your mood will change once you get a little more experience.

Show me a single "starving artist" who had to spend 4 years in undergrad taking the hardest courses, graduating near the top of the class, followed by yet another minimum 7 years of abuse + a quarter million dollars of debt before anyone would let him hold a brush, much less sell a painting.

Show me a single artist who is required to provide free paintings to people who really want them, but have no intention to pay.

Show me a single artist who is forbidden to sell his paintings at the market rate, but rather must accept pennies on the dollar from the federal government and wait 12 months for the check.

Despite the inanity of your post, it is charming to hear the ramblings of someone so full of **** that their eyes are brown.

You missed my point when I said "And to people in med school/residency, don't bother telling me how ignorant I am and how my mood will change once I get to M3 or start working resident hours. I've heard that before too, by 100 other people in 40 other threads." To me, you are the one who is full of ****. And you completely missed my point about comparing the doctor to the artist. But I think that's ok, cause you were never one of the ones who was going to get it.

I want to take 4 years of the hardest undergraduate classes I can (notice my major), I want to be top of my class, and I want to go to the best damn grad school I can. That's what makes me happy. You couldn't understand that. So I'm really not going to try.

 

[eight sat up]

^ orly?

 

[JoshUNCW]

^ orly?

 

[Armastama]

Don't worry, your mood will change once you get a little more experience.

seelee, what exactly is your experience? You've been in medical school for <1 year?

 

[Law2Doc]

I feel the same way as you do, OP.
... I will be perfectly fine making $200k a year doing something that I find challenging and interesting and that I enjoy doing. Even if it does mean paying off student loans well into my 30's.

Yes but the question is really whether you will be perfectly fine making substantially less than that but still paying off student loans well past your 30s. I think the OP was suggesting that a starving artist is happy, so a starving physician should be too. His hypothesis is that you should be perfectly fine even if you don't make "$200k a year" which, the way things are going, you well may not. So I think you not only don't "feel the same way as" the OP, you just posted something totally antithetical to his point of view.

 

[MilkmanAl]

I want to take 4 years of the hardest undergraduate classes I can (notice my major), I want to be top of my class, and I want to go to the best damn grad school I can. That's what makes me happy. You couldn't understand that. So I'm really not going to try.

That's sort of sad, in my opinion. There's more to life than busting your ass.

I'll be fairly happy with my salary, assuming I don't get pigeonholed into primary care (dear God, please don't let me score that badly on Step 1...), but I don't really see any reason to do anything but increase it, especially now that I've been through 2 years of med school. I haven't even touched the worst of it yet, from what I understand, and I'm still quite certain that doctors are hopelessly underpaid.

 

[JoshUNCW]

Yes but the question is really whether you will be perfectly fine making substantially less than that but still paying off student loans well past your 30s. I think the OP was suggesting that a starving artist is happy, so a starving physician should be too. His hypothesis is that you should be perfectly fine even if you don't make "$200k a year" which, the way things are going, you well may not. So I think you not only don't "feel the same way as" the OP, you just posted something totally antithetical to his point of view.

He really didn't post something antithetical to my point of view. I plan on making six figures. And I seriously don't one of the specialties I want to do will ever dip below that. But that is not what this thread is about.

And even with making less than 200k, it is perfectly possible, and has been proven on this forum before, to pay off a lot of debt and still live.

 

[JoshUNCW]

That's sort of sad, in my opinion. There's more to life than busting your ass.

It's not sad. I party every week. I go to a beach school. I go out with my friends to the beach. I take my dog running. I go to the gym. I have a girlfriend and have sex. I'm happy. Don't be sad for me because I want to use my brain.

 

[casillas]

Who else is fine with the money and really wishes people would just stop beating the dead horse?[/QUOTE]


This X100

I think the difference is that people have different ideas of how much money "being rich" involves.

In reality a lot of people would love to make even half of what lower paid doctors make.

 

[VTBuc]

OP,

 

[MilkmanAl]

I guess it's just the way you phrased it. You made it sound like taking hard courses and achieving prestige is your only (or at least your most significant) goal.

 

[JoshUNCW]

I guess it's just the way you phrased it. You made it sound like taking hard courses and achieving prestige is your only (or at least your most significant) goal.

Its not my only goal, far far from it. But it's really the only one relevant to this thread right now.

 

[LRAccord624]

I want to take 4 years of the hardest undergraduate classes I can (notice my major), I want to be top of my class, and I want to go to the best damn grad school I can. That's what makes me happy. You couldn't understand that. So I'm really not going to try.

Look, I admire your truly altruistic intentions (really, I'm not being sarcastic). But you obviously have a problem with people who don't see it the same way as you, and you are obviously trying to change people's minds, or open their eyes to the way you see it (you created an entire thread about it).

The truth is, though, many people are never going to see things the same way as you. Their complaints are legitimate, and just because they don't agree with you, doesn't mean that they are wrong.

Medical students, residents, and attendings will tirelessly try to change your mind because like it or not, they do have more experience (especially residents and attendings). Many of them started out with exactly your attitude and then were hugely disappointed when they finally started their career and realized all the problems with it. They want you to either get out now or go in knowing about the problems and not be smacked in the face like they were. There's no reason to complain all over SDN about other people who complain on SDN.

 

[JoshUNCW]

Look, I admire your truly altruistic intentions (really, I'm not being sarcastic). But you obviously have a problem with people who don't see it the same way as you, and you are obviously trying to change people's minds, or open their eyes to the way you see it (you created an entire thread about it).

The truth is, though, many people are never going to see things the same way as you. Their complaints are legitimate, and just because they don't agree with you, doesn't mean that they are wrong.

Medical students, residents, and attendings will tirelessly try to change your mind because like it or not, they do have more experience (especially residents and attendings). Many of them started out with exactly your attitude and then were hugely disappointed when they finally started their career and realized all the problems with it. They want you to either get out now or go in knowing about the problems and not be smacked in the face like they were. There's no reason to complain all over SDN about other people who complain on SDN.

I agree with you to a point. I have a problem with people who say I'm so full of **** my eyes were brown (the post your referring to, he said that to me). He's an MS1 and trying to act like he has a vast more wealth of experience than I do. That's why I wasn't going to try with him. He obviously doesn't wanna listen less than I do. So I saved myself the trouble.

And I do believe this is the first thread I've ever seen on the topic of money, that was about being happy with it. That's the only reason I made it. Every time I look at SDN, I see 5+ threads on the first half the page moaning about money. I just wanted to represent the other side a little.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Yes, it's very possible and likely that some of us, especially non-trads like myself (and trads as well), want to medical school to become a doctor (regardless of physician earnings). The motivation is treating people, and doing something one is passionate about, and money is not a motiviting factor.

Straight out of undergrad, money was the be all and end all to me, so I went to work at a large investment banking firm and pulled in a little under 100k my first year (very different from starting med school). As I matured, I realized I wanted to try different things and do something I was more passionate about and taught in public school in the inner-city (needless to say, I didn't make anywhere near a 100k, but it didn't matter). I then worked at a hospital and as a clinical research monitor (a good combination of a salary over 100k and lifestyle).

However, no matter what, the childhood passion, strong interest in science, and desire to work with and treat patients was in the back of my mind. I could care less how much I make as a physician (for me the lost income and medical debt will be large (i.e. opportunity cost is huge)), but I'm following my heart and this is what is most important, do something you are passionate about.

Isn't it possible some of us want to go to med school. We want to be residents. We just want to be doctors. The money isn't the motivation here people. I understand for some of you it is, and I'm not judging you. I think money is a perfectly acceptable reason to go into a profession. But maybe if you do want to make a lot of money and you feel like you wont.... you just should leave SDN and stop pursuing medicine now. Cause you're obviously hurt about much of your life you're giving up and how much money you'll make.

Who else is fine with the money and really wishes people would just stop beating the dead horse?

 

[MilkmanAl]

I think it's time for one of the better posts on this issue to be dusted off:

Oh boy, a thread where starry-eyed premeds clamor at the chance to make less money in order to prove how selfless they really are about medicine.

This is a first.

Lay off the OP. I swear, we are the only profession whose members (or at least potential members) practically lobby to make less money. When was the last time you saw your mechanic begging to take a pay cut?

Basically, it's great to be happy with your salary and all, but you're being dumb if you let (or even encourage) people keep hacking into it just because you like your job.

Just for the record, that isn't directed at anyone in particular.

 

[JoshUNCW]

Yes, it's very possible and likely that some of us, especially non-trads like myself (and trads as well), want to medical school to become a doctor (regardless of physician earnings). The motivation is treating people, and doing something one is passionate about, and money is not a motiviting factor.

Straight out of undergrad, money was the be all and end all to me, so I went to work at a large investment banking firm and pulled in a little under 100k my first year (very different from starting med school). As I matured, I realized I wanted to try different things and do something I was more passionate about and taught in public school in the inner-city (needless to say, I didn't make a 100k). I then worked at a hospital and as a clinical research monitor (a good combination of a salary over 100k and lifestyle).

However, no matter what, the childhood passion, strong interest in science, and desire to work with and treat patients was in the back of my mind. I could care less how much I make as a physician (for me the lost income and medical debt will be large (i.e. opportunity cost is huge)), but I'm following my heart.

Thank you for that. And I did want to point out to people, I'm not out to live destitute. I've thought about and still might take a year or two off before medical school to work at the software company I internship at. Pay off some college loans. Buy a small boat and an infinite. Who knows.

My point is I have those options, and so do all of you. So if money's that big of an issue, you know where the door is. No one forces anyone to become a doctor.

 

[JoshUNCW]

I think it's time for one of the better posts on this issue to be dusted off:



Basically, it's great to be happy with your salary and all, but you're being dumb if you let (or even encourage) people keep hacking into it just because you like your job.

Just for the record, that isn't directed at anyone in particular.

That's completely irrelevant. Nowhere in this thread am I lobbying for less money. I would love more money. My point is deal with it, do something about it, or get out. And no, bitching on SDN is not doing something about it.

 

[Tin Man]

I more think it's funny how:

1) The system that's in place will be in place, short of either the country actually going to hell like anti-Obama people think, or the Supreme Court somehow finds it all anticonstitutional.

2) It therefore is a fact that people will be, on average, making less money as a physician than before.

3) The people who want to go into the profession for the money are now angry.

4) The people who want to go into the profession somehow think whining is going to help.

Seriously. At this point, agree or disagree, the path is set. Reaffirming that it's perfectly acceptable to go into medicine for the money over and over is stupid. It's completely irrelevant at this point if you want to go into medicine for the money, and think you should be getting more. The reality is that you won't be, or at least won't have an easy time making enough to make it "worth the money", and complaining about it, especially on SDN, is not going to make the situation any better.

So if you want to go into medicine purely for the money, and you're upset that the money you'll be making as a doctor sucks now, then get out of pre-med and find something else to do. Yeah, it sucks, but there really isn't much that's going to change in the time between now and when you apply for med school. So get over it.

If you are going in KINDA for the money, then you need to weigh whether it's still worth it. Once again, saying the way things should be isn't not changing the situation. Doctors probably should be making more money, and probably should have been making more money and been a little more immune to debt and being sued than they have been. That's not the case, and it won't be the case. If you want to go into medicine, you're going to need to deal with probably making less money than the doctors of yesteryear, and if you can't deal with that, once again, find a different profession.

For the "idealists" like me who consider ourselves going into medicine for the "right" reasons (whatever that means), there isn't a point in continuing to argue. So just stop calling people out and making trouble. At the end of the day, we both know that the chances of a person going into medicine for the money not being a good doctor isn't really any better than someone going in for different reasons. It's just nice to look for a reason to demonize anyone else who has a chance of taking our seat, whether it's currency-based interest, URM, or whatever.

For what it's worth, though, I do think that the people going in for the money need to take a step back and see if the future that they planned on still matches up with what the future is probably going to be with the new system in place. If not, it's worth reconsidering whether the "interest in science" that you always seem to use to justify medicine over real estate is still strong enough to pull you through.

The main joke of the SDN forums is for people like me to get called an idealist by a person who thinks that either the system is going to change appreciably in the next few decades or that they are going to land one of what will be an even more super-competitive residencies that would bring in the big bucks, allowing them to live out their desire to make a lot of money as a physician. Somehow, my idealism of going into medicine for reasons other than money doesn't seem as absurd.

 

[Dr Oops]

I agree with you to a point. I have a problem with people who say I'm so full of **** my eyes were brown (the post your referring to, he said that to me). He's an MS1 and trying to act like he has a vast more wealth of experience than I do. That's why I wasn't going to try with him. He obviously doesn't wanna listen less than I do. So I saved myself the trouble.

And I do believe this is the first thread I've ever seen on the topic of money, that was about being happy with it. That's the only reason I made it. Every time I look at SDN, I see 5+ threads on the first half the page moaning about money. I just wanted to represent the other side a little.

This maybe the only thread about it, but in all the other threads are pre-meds who claim they are happy making 50K a year just so they can be a doctor.

All that stuff you like doing going to the beach, running with your dog (which by the way you should find a someone to keep while youre in school), youre going to have a lot less time to do it once you start med school. Its like how you go from high school to college and then youre think "wow high school was such a joke".

99% of pre-meds start out altruistic like you (I was) and to be honest it really is one of the ways we get into medschool. You feel so damn lucky to get in. But it wasnt luck or the kindness of the school, you guys worked hard to get there and you should be proud of yourselves for it.

M1 is kinda the eye opener, it shows you how little you know and how much work you will have to do. The first couple weeks are pretty awesome, but after a while your back starts to hurt from being hunched over books all the time and when the weather gets nice it really sucks having to be inside studying all the time. Eventually you get happy just having time to study.

A lot of us like being intellectually challenged but theres a point where you just want to shut your brain off, but you cant cuz you have to read one more chapter. I like eating doughnuts, but after your 6th or 7th one you just dont want anymore for a little while.

Plus peoples priorities change. People get married they want houses and kids. Those things cost money.

I hope you stay as altruistic as you are now. I have a feeling though you will start to care about how much you get paid.

 

[Dr Oops]

That's completely irrelevant. Nowhere in this thread am I lobbying for less money. I would love more money. My point is deal with it, do something about it, or get out. And no, bitching on SDN is not doing something about it.

people bitch about it because everyone is trying to cut the amount of money we make and if you dont do anything about it they will.

 

[JoshUNCW]

This maybe the only thread about it, but in all the other threads are pre-meds who claim they are happy making 50K a year just so they can be a doctor.

All that stuff you like doing going to the beach, running with your dog (which by the way you should find a someone to keep while youre in school), youre going to have a lot less time to do it once you start med school. Its like how you go from high school to college and then youre think "wow high school was such a joke".

99% of pre-meds start out altruistic like you (I was) and to be honest it really is one of the ways we get into medschool. You feel so damn lucky to get in. But it wasnt luck or the kindness of the school, you guys worked hard to get there and you should be proud of yourselves for it.

M1 is kinda the eye opener, it shows you how little you know and how much work you will have to do. The first couple weeks are pretty awesome, but after a while your back starts to hurt from being hunched over books all the time and when the weather gets nice it really sucks having to be inside studying all the time. Eventually you get happy just having time to study.

A lot of us like being intellectually challenged but theres a point where you just want to shut your brain off, but you cant cuz you have to read one more chapter. I like eating doughnuts, but after your 6th or 7th one you just dont want anymore for a little while.

Plus peoples priorities change. People get married they want houses and kids. Those things cost money.

I hope you stay as altruistic as you are now. I have a feeling though you will start to care about how much you get paid.

Don't worry about me. I have friends in medical school. They still have time to visit every few weeks. I know its a lot of work. It's not prison.

Let me reiterate. We all know doctors wont get paid what they're owed currently. So get in or get out. It's that simple. And if you're M1, you still have time to quit.

 

[lovemesomeTJ]

Someone's gotta treat the sickos.

If you don't wanna do it, don't do it. And don't hate on those that do or their reasons for doing it.

If you do...then let's do this. And don't hate on the people that don't or their reasons for not doing it.

mmm'k?

 

[Tin Man]

Don't worry about me. I have friends in medical school. They still have time to visit every few weeks. I know its a lot of work. It's not prison.

Let me reiterate. We all know doctors wont get paid what they're owed currently. So get in or get out. It's that simple. And if you're M1, you still have time to quit.

👍

 

[Tin Man]

Someone's gotta treat the sickos.

If you don't wanna do it, don't do it. And don't hate on those that do or their reasons for doing it.

If you do...then let's do this. And don't hate on the people that don't or their reasons for not doing it.

mmm'k?

Also...

👍

 

[niblet]

You can go into medicine for the "right" reasons and still be disappointed with the compensation.

 

[Dr Oops]

Don't worry about me. I have friends in medical school. They still have time to visit every few weeks. I know its a lot of work. It's not prison.

Let me reiterate. We all know doctors wont get paid what they're owed currently. So get in or get out. It's that simple. And if you're M1, you still have time to quit.

We all know its alotta work going in (or at least we think we do), but you dont truly understand until youre in the thick of it, its especially painful when the weather is nice.

I think the reason you dont really care is because the specialties you think you want to go into, you see as being untouchable. 10-15 years ago, IM and FP were top, specialties like derm and radiology were jokes.

Have you guys been calling your state BONs about the DNP issue? How bout your congressmen about the SGR?

If you guys cared about being doctors so much you would be doing these things instead of saying "i will work for less than the starving artist"

 

[Tin Man]

You can go into medicine for the "right" reasons and still be disappointed with the compensation.

Let me use an analogy here.

A 16 year old who wants to look cool is going to be extremely disappointed by getting a 2005 used Kia Rio instead of a Porsche GT Carrera. So disappointed that hemay refuse to be seen driving the Kia, and be eternally mad at mommy and daddy for putting him into such a negative situation, because he can't look cool.

A 16 year old who just wants a car to drive is going to be perfectly content with the used 2005 Kia Rio, because he can now get where he wants to go, drive his friends, take a girl to the movies, etc. You know, the things the car was designed to do. Having a Porsche would be AWESOME, but not necessary for the kid to feel happy with having a car.

It's pretty much the same thing with medicine. If a person goes into medicine expecting and desiring a high wage, and doesn't get it, then he/she is going to be pretty miserable, possibly regretting ever getting into medicine. The whole career will be permeated by negativity.

On the other hand, a person who goes into medicine simply because of a desire to help people, or a strong interest in the science of medicine, or because of an intense need to be intellectually stimulated will be happy, regardless of the money situation, so long as the debts are getting paid and they can afford to keep going to work every day. Sure, a higher wage is great, but it's icing on the cake. It won't affect the overall fulfillment from the job.

The main difference is that, in this debate, the "right" reasons are generally defined as being reasons that cannot change is the definition of medicine is static. The wage can change any day of the week, which means that if you're going into medicine for the money, that's a "bad" reason, since the money can dry up. But if you're going into medicine because you really care, well, that ability to act on the care you have for people, or the interest in science, won't disappear. That's going to stick around as long as you have an MD or DO after your name.

Whether or not this affects the quality of the physician's care is up for debate. Logically, I guess it would make more sense that a doctor who loves doing what he/she does is going to be less bored/frusterated/distracted/corruptible than a doctor who was going in for the money, but who knows? There's no statistics on that, and there's nothing preventing someone who goes in for the money to be a good doctor.

But in terms of being fulfilled, well, people like me are going to be just fine with the Kia Rio. Good luck getting your Carerra. 🙂

 

[JoshUNCW]

We all know its alotta work going in (or at least we think we do), but you dont truly understand until youre in the thick of it, its especially painful when the weather is nice.

I think the reason you dont really care is because the specialties you think you want to go into, you see as being untouchable. 10-15 years ago, IM and FP were top, specialties like derm and radiology were jokes.

Have you guys been calling your state BONs about the DNP issue? How bout your congressmen about the SGR?

If you guys cared about being doctors so much you would be doing these things instead of saying "i will work for less than the starving artist"

You're a giant dick bro. Just to let you know.

 

[elektroshok]

I hate people.
It's all about the benjamins.

 

[CaliGirl14]

If you hate all the whining and moaning about money why are you whining and moaning about it?

 

[VTBuc]

OP, I am guessing that you are someone who has never personally had to worry about your finances up to and through this point in your life? If you ever have, you might think differently.

I want to be a doctor because I want to be a doctor. Don't question mine or anyone else's motives because they aren't pleased with the compensation that comes with it. I want to enter into a profession...not do charity work for the rest of my life.

I had to take massive loans and work two jobs simultaneously throughout college just to get a Bachelor's degree. Paying for college with my family's financial situation was incredibly difficult, and it put a HUGE burden on both me and my parents. I don't want to have to face that again. I don't want my kids to be unable to go to college because of money. I don't want my wife to have to make huge budget cuts just to make ends meet. I don't want to have to tell my child, "Son, college might just not be possible right now for you."

Hell no. I'm not doing that again. I chose medicine because I like it, but I had better be financial secure the rest of my life for going through the sacrifices it required to get to that point.

Ever have Hamburger Helper without the hamburger for dinner because your parents couldn't afford it? I have. Ever buy a computer for $10 because you can't afford the school required laptops? I'm on a $10 computer right now. Ever buy your clothes at a thrift store? I'm not talking about Halloween costumes...I'm talking about the clothes you wear to school. Because I have. Ever skip meals not because you're too busy studying but because you have $3 in your bank account after your bills and you don't get paid for another 4 days? Because I have.

I'm not working for $50k a year. I want better for my future family and better for what I've put in so far and will put it in the future to become a doctor.

And every time some doctor or doctor-wannabe talks about how money doesn't matter, that just opens the door for someone to take it away. Maybe nobody posts about how they want to work for less because that kind of talk makes it a reality. Trust me, there is no shortage of people in the world who want to take money from you.

 

[lovemesomeTJ]

If you hate all the whining and moaning about money why are you whining and moaning about it?

It's the circle of life.

 

[Bleg]

If there is anything worse than those who insist that doctors make too much money and are bankrupting our health care system -- a patently absurd claim made by liars with an agenda and those naive dupes foolish enough to believe them -- it's doctors and doctors-to-be who whine that their paltry six-figure salary is not just compensation for their Godlike efforts.

Barf.

 

[Dr Oops]

He really didn't post something antithetical to my point of view. I plan on making six figures. And I seriously don't one of the specialties I want to do will ever dip below that. But that is not what this thread is about.

And even with making less than 200k, it is perfectly possible, and has been proven on this forum before, to pay off a lot of debt and still live.

You're a giant dick bro. Just to let you know.

Not trying to be a dick just going by wut you said. If I misinterpreted you, sorry. But its foolish to think that any specialties are safe these days.

 

[Dr Oops]

If there is anything worse than those who insist that doctors make too much money and are bankrupting our health care system -- a patently absurd claim made by liars with an agenda and those naive dupes foolish enough to believe them -- it's doctors and doctors-to-be who whine that their paltry six-figure salary is not just compensation for their Godlike efforts.

Barf.

doctors arent trying to get more money, they are trying to keep their payments from going lower as they have been more many years.

 

[niblet]

Let me use an analogy here.

A 16 year old who wants to look cool is going to be extremely disappointed by getting a 2005 used Kia Rio instead of a Porsche GT Carrera. So disappointed that hemay refuse to be seen driving the Kia, and be eternally mad at mommy and daddy for putting him into such a negative situation, because he can't look cool.

A 16 year old who just wants a car to drive is going to be perfectly content with the used 2005 Kia Rio, because he can now get where he wants to go, drive his friends, take a girl to the movies, etc. You know, the things the car was designed to do. Having a Porsche would be AWESOME, but not necessary for the kid to feel happy with having a car.

It's pretty much the same thing with medicine. If a person goes into medicine expecting and desiring a high wage, and doesn't get it, then he/she is going to be pretty miserable, possibly regretting ever getting into medicine. The whole career will be permeated by negativity.

On the other hand, a person who goes into medicine simply because of a desire to help people, or a strong interest in the science of medicine, or because of an intense need to be intellectually stimulated will be happy, regardless of the money situation, so long as the debts are getting paid and they can afford to keep going to work every day. Sure, a higher wage is great, but it's icing on the cake. It won't affect the overall fulfillment from the job.

The main difference is that, in this debate, the "right" reasons are generally defined as being reasons that cannot change is the definition of medicine is static. The wage can change any day of the week, which means that if you're going into medicine for the money, that's a "bad" reason, since the money can dry up. But if you're going into medicine because you really care, well, that ability to act on the care you have for people, or the interest in science, won't disappear. That's going to stick around as long as you have an MD or DO after your name.

Whether or not this affects the quality of the physician's care is up for debate. Logically, I guess it would make more sense that a doctor who loves doing what he/she does is going to be less bored/frusterated/distracted/corruptible than a doctor who was going in for the money, but who knows? There's no statistics on that, and there's nothing preventing someone who goes in for the money to be a good doctor.

But in terms of being fulfilled, well, people like me are going to be just fine with the Kia Rio. Good luck getting your Carerra. 🙂

I'll use your analogy to explain what I'm trying to say. That 16 year old who just wants a car to drive and doesn't care how cool it is can still be disappointed with it, if it comes with stains, cigarette burns, and dysfunctional windshield wipers.

Just the same, someone can go into medicine for reasons other than seeking a large salary and end up let down to find that what they are getting paid is downright insufficient for the amount of work and time they invest and/or the amount of debt they've incurred in trying to get there.

For the record, I'm not all that concerned with money and it's not near the top of my list of reasons for wanting to become a doctor. I just see a flaw in the line of thinking that those fit for medicine should work for whatever fair or unfair wage is set for them and simply accept it.

 

[aDreamer]

OP, I agree with your points 100%

You worked away your youth, you're in debt to your ears, your relationships have suffered, blah blah blah. It's what you sign up for. Am I saying doctors should get their salaries slashed? No. But then again, I think teachers and social workers are underpaid too. And I'm sure they knew that when they signed-up---just like we all know the money is not going to be as great as some might want compared to the cost of med school etc.

Like OP said, this is the reality. Knowing what you know now and understanding the direction things are going, do you still want in? If you do, then stay the course and buckle down for the ride. But understand that you are signing up for a roller coaster. Period. If you want off, then get off. Or, if you want to change things, stop searching for sympathy on an anonymous forum and take your complaints to people who have the power to change things (government representatives, etc.). I really have limited sympathy. Especially when most people from where I grew up will never even see HALF of what even a primary care doctor will see when these people are working their a** off in manual labor from now to the day they run their bodies ragged. Doctors have a "hard life" (relative to who exactly?), but guess what, so do the millions who go to work everyday for minimum wage and can barely make ends meet or get quality healthcare. To complain when you are in such a privileged position is a testament to how blind you are to that privilege...sad.

Rant done.

 

[sunshinevet]

Do human med students realise that the average vet med student debt is around $200,000 after grad, and the average salary is $80,000?

Stuffs not as bad as you think it is!

 

[VTBuc]

Do human med students realise that the average vet med student debt is around $200,000 after grad, and the average salary is $80,000?

Stuffs not as bad as you think it is!

Veterinarians also do not have to have a residency or have to be on call. Nor does the federal government have a say in your compensation.

 

[aDreamer]

Do human med students realise that the average vet med student debt is around $200,000 after grad, and the average salary is $80,000?

Stuffs not as bad as you think it is!

👍

 

[sunshinevet]

Veterinarians also do not have to have a residency or have to be on call. Nor does the federal government have a say in your compensation.

Lots of vets do residency these days (For about $21,000-$28,000 a year...).

I hope your kidding about being on call...

Your'e right about the government thing. My point was purely to show that plenty of people pay back their loans on far less, and live good lives! Chin up! You'll still be far better off than the majority of people!

P.S. We have socialised healthcare here in Aus. And it rocks. I can't imagine what it would be like to implement it in a country, but srsly, im sure if you come back to america in 100yrs, you'll think the healthcare system is far better off for EVERYBODY!