Anybody else happy with what they'll make?

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Idealism would be nice. Sadly, these "idealists" won't pursue the specialties where they're actually needed. The guy that wants to "help people" will be gunning for derm come 4th year, and I think you know why.

I have the same guess as you. I also know that skin cancer is a big deal, and the one dermatologist I've had any experience with was pretty good at dealing with it.

So maybe he's as shallow as everyone else, maybe not. At the end of the day, all doctors are going to be helping people with their medical issues, and no doctor deals with a completely "safe" field. So while some fields are more prone to people who want money, it isn't definite. Some people just like skin. If you know what I mean.

Regardless, I'm not talking about liars in my post, if he is lying. I'm talking about people who really do go in for reasons other than money. If he isn't one, then I wasn't talking about him.
 
Some people just like skin. If you know what I mean.

naughty.gif
 
I will give Josh props for managing to troll a thread for 4 pages.

Seriously guys, someone said it better previously, but this is like a 10 year old lecturing you on the wonders sex, and you're actually trying to argue his points.

He's idealistic and ignorant, but he'll wake up to the realities of life soon enough (I know, I know Josh, you're too cool for that, bro...but still).

Let him ride his "I don't want to make a lot of money but I want to go into Derm for the love of all that is squamous" high while it lasts.:laugh:
 
Well my father supported the family on 40,000 working for the state. I'd be perfectly happy making 100000. I was raised on a rather frugal lifestyle and it's kind of ingrained in me. Practicality has always take precedence over Porsches. The only thing I'm concerned with is time. You only get one life. If i'm going to invest some of the best years of my life and then practically all my waking moments into something there had better be a damned good reason. A 40 hour workweek is more important than the money.
 
Well my father supported the family on 40,000 working for the state. I'd be perfectly happy making 100000. I was raised on a rather frugal lifestyle and it's kind of ingrained in me. Practicality has always take precedence over Porsches. The only thing I'm concerned with is time. You only get one life. If i'm going to invest some of the best years of my life and then practically all my waking moments into something there had better be a damned good reason. A 40 hour workweek is more important than the money.

$100,000 doesn't go far with med school debt, malpractice, and living expenses.

If you can manage it, great. But make sure you're bring realistic about it.
 
rent/mortgage
utilities
phone
food
clothes
DEBT
transportation (gas,maintenance,etc)
miscellaneous

What else am I missing? I'm trying to make a budget
 
rent/mortgage
utilities
phone
food
clothes
DEBT
transportation (gas,maintenance,etc)
miscellaneous

What else am I missing? I'm trying to make a budget

Health Insurance
Life Insurance if you have a spouse and/or kids
College fund for the kids, if you have any
Taxes
Entertainment, vacations
Contributions to retirement fund
Charitable contributions
Gifts to spouse, children, family members, friends
Expenses related to the maintenance of your home
Expenses related to any dogs, cats, pets that you have. Vets are expensive.
Car insurance

These are a few that come to mind just off the top of my head. Of course, if you have children there will be many other expenses for sports and school activities, etc.
 
Health Insurance
Life Insurance if you have a spouse and/or kids
College fund for the kids, if you have any
Taxes
Entertainment, vacations
Contributions to retirement fund
Charitable contributions
Gifts to spouse, children, family members, friends
Expenses related to the maintenance of your home
Expenses related to any dogs, cats, pets that you have. Vets are expensive.
Car insurance

These are a few that come to mind just off the top of my head. Of course, if you have children there will be many other expenses for sports and school activities, etc.

Nieces and nephews are enough, thanks. And a spouse is debateable (sp?).

For taxes, I'm claiming Single 0. Are they still gonna take more from me? And my puppy's getting his shots and spayed/neutered/whatever they do to dogs (I don't have one yet). If he gets hit by a truck he's done. If he's got diabetes then :wtf:

I'm gonna get to work.
 
I've gotten so fed up with people b'ing and moaning on SDN about how they're going to be poor. "Obama is ruining us all." "It's not worth it." "The smart people never go to med school." It's really old. As if we haven't already read it in 40 other threads by 100 other people. It's just unnecessary.

But I know I'm not the only one who doesn't care. And to people in med school/residency, don't bother telling me how ignorant I am and how my mood will change once I get to M3 or start working resident hours. I've heard that before too, by 100 other people in 40 other threads.

Does an artist live his life in a small studio apartment, never making it big, but creating art, because he wants to be miserable? Did he do it for the money? Or did he want to make art. He's not going to be able to give his family everything. Maybe he won't even have enough money to support a family on his own. But someone doesn't go into art to do all that. But let's also not pretend that a doctor is going to be a starving artist, ok? Let's pretend we're all smarter than that.

Isn't it possible some of us want to go to med school. We want to be residents. We just want to be doctors. The money isn't the motivation here people. I understand for some of you it is, and I'm not judging you. I think money is a perfectly acceptable reason to go into a profession. But maybe if you do want to make a lot of money and you feel like you wont.... you just should leave SDN and stop pursuing medicine now. Cause you're obviously hurt about much of your life you're giving up and how much money you'll make.

Who else is fine with the money and really wishes people would just stop beating the dead horse?

Hey I know exactly what your saying,

I did 2 summer internships with boutique IB firms, and the money was GREAT for an internship position, but i felt SO ****TY working for the money,... i never understood why people would go into medicine for the money: if you're competitive enough to get into med school, you could easily transfer to a mathematics program, do financial mathematics + analyst position and see cash like nothing else within 5 years...I guess thats why research is such a big part of the admissions policy, you can't do novel research without being really interested.

Thanks for the good Post OP!
 
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Hey I know exactly what your saying,

I did 2 summer internships with boutique IB firms, and the money was GREAT for an internship position, but i felt SO ****TY working for the money,... i never understood why people would go into medicine for the money: if you're competitive enough to get into med school, you could easily transfer to a mathematics program, do financial mathematics + analyst position and see cash like nothing else within 5 years...I guess thats why research is such a big part of the admissions policy, you can't do novel research without being really interested.

Thanks for the good Post OP!

Have you seen the majority of pre-med's math ability???
 
Hey I know exactly what your saying,

I did 2 summer internships with boutique IB firms, and the money was GREAT for an internship position, but i felt SO ****TY working for the money,... i never understood why people would go into medicine for the money

And here I was thinking the point of a JOB was to make money. 🙄

Have you seen the majority of pre-med's math ability???

Seconded! 👍
 
One of my plans is military medicine for a few years.

Edit: Before anyone goes IF YOU GO INTO THE MILITARY FOR THE MONEY YOULL BE MISERABLE. Save it. I'm not considering it for the money. Just like I'm not going into medicine for the money.

An aside, but I hope you've thoroughly explored the HPSP. The military always gets from you more than you think you're giving... My personal opinion is that it's only worth it if your dedication to military > dedication to medicine.


Well, best of luck. Just don't raise your expecations for medicine too high. I still maintain that the people who are happiest in this job (or any job) are the people that expect the least from it.


But imagine how miserable people are going to be if they go into medical already cynical about medicine.

I figure its best to start out optimistically and see where you end up, as opposed to going in thinking its going to be awful

In regard to these two posts: sure it's nice to be optimistic, but would you enter battle without wearing any armor? Short of expecting nothing, I think it's at least wise to prepare to be disappointed. That way at least you'll be ready-- as in, have strategies to keep your motivation and drive up. In my experience and everything I've heard/read, med school/hospitals aren't the happiest places on earth, or anything near that... When you're dealing with unhappy things, it is (I think) impossible not to feel negativity at some point or another. You should guard yourself against getting jaded.


JoshUNCW, to me it sounds like you might be jaded already by the negativity of others, even before starting med school. Like I mentioned in the previous thought, there will probably be a LOT of that in med school, residency, and in practice. I dunno, man. My personal thought (for everyone), FWIW: it's wise to find ways to minimize how the talk of others affect you-- otherwise, you WILL get jaded eventually.
 
An aside, but I hope you've thoroughly explored the HPSP. The military always gets from you more than you think you're giving... My personal opinion is that it's only worth it if your dedication to military > dedication to medicine.

In regard to these two posts: sure it's nice to be optimistic, but would you enter battle without wearing any armor? Short of expecting nothing, I think it's at least wise to prepare to be disappointed. That way at least you'll be ready-- as in, have strategies to keep your motivation and drive up. In my experience and everything I've heard/read, med school/hospitals aren't the happiest places on earth, or anything near that... When you're dealing with unhappy things, it is (I think) impossible not to feel negativity at some point or another. You should guard yourself against getting jaded.

JoshUNCW, to me it sounds like you might be jaded already by the negativity of others, even before starting med school. Like I mentioned in the previous thought, there will probably be a LOT of that in med school, residency, and in practice. I dunno, man. My personal thought (for everyone), FWIW: it's wise to find ways to minimize how the talk of others affect you-- otherwise, you WILL get jaded eventually.

It hasn't jade me. I'm just still very confused why one would go into a career, that's literally a life commitment, if they knew before hand they were going to be miserable everyday of their life. It seems like a waste of a life time. We only live once. Don't spend it hating your job.
 
It hasn't jade me. I'm just still very confused why one would go into a career, that's literally a life commitment, if they knew before hand they were going to be miserable everyday of their life. It seems like a waste of a life time. We only live once. Don't spend it hating your job.
I don't think anyone said you should go into medicine expecting to be miserable. What people have been saying to go into medicine with a realistic (rather than an idealistic) view and treat it as any other job because if you go in with idealistic views that you're going to save the world one patient at a time, there's a good chance you'll be disappointed (and thus, you'll be the one who's miserable rather than those treating it as just a job). At least, that's how I understand it.
 
I don't think anyone said you should go into medicine expecting to be miserable. What people have been saying to go into medicine with a realistic (rather than an idealistic) view and treat it as any other job because if you go in with idealistic views that you're going to save the world one patient at a time, there's a good chance you'll be disappointed (and thus, you'll be the one who's miserable rather than those treating it as just a job). At least, that's how I understand it.

No... perrotfish repeatedly said EXPECT to be miserable and that EVERYONE is miserable in medicine. That was the great advice of one of the brilliant MS1s in this thread. And there were several more like him.
 
I've gotten so fed up with people b'ing and moaning on SDN about how they're going to be poor. "Obama is ruining us all." "It's not worth it." "The smart people never go to med school." It's really old. As if we haven't already read it in 40 other threads by 100 other people. It's just unnecessary.

But I know I'm not the only one who doesn't care. And to people in med school/residency, don't bother telling me how ignorant I am and how my mood will change once I get to M3 or start working resident hours. I've heard that before too, by 100 other people in 40 other threads.

Does an artist live his life in a small studio apartment, never making it big, but creating art, because he wants to be miserable? Did he do it for the money? Or did he want to make art. He's not going to be able to give his family everything. Maybe he won't even have enough money to support a family on his own. But someone doesn't go into art to do all that. But let's also not pretend that a doctor is going to be a starving artist, ok? Let's pretend we're all smarter than that.

Isn't it possible some of us want to go to med school. We want to be residents. We just want to be doctors. The money isn't the motivation here people. I understand for some of you it is, and I'm not judging you. I think money is a perfectly acceptable reason to go into a profession. But maybe if you do want to make a lot of money and you feel like you wont.... you just should leave SDN and stop pursuing medicine now. Cause you're obviously hurt about much of your life you're giving up and how much money you'll make.

Who else is fine with the money and really wishes people would just stop beating the dead horse?

You bring up money more than anyone else on this forum. The dead horse is your horse. Please just let it go and find something else to post about.
 
I didn't bother to read the entire wall of text that the OP posted, let alone the rest of this thread but...

OP, my guess is that you were spoon-fed by your rich parents your whole life and have never learned to respect / had to work for money. It's quite easy to put down others who "gasp" go to work for money?! when you have plenty of money yourself.

Either that or you are just bat**** crazy
 
No... perrotfish repeatedly said EXPECT to be miserable and that EVERYONE is miserable in medicine. That was the great advice of one of the brilliant MS1s in this thread. And there were several more like him.

I would agree with that sentiment though. I mean, you should definitely expect to be miserable. That doesn't mean it's not worth it, though. When you run a marathon, it's not runners' high the whole way through. But people finish despite the cost because they're motivated to do so for whatever reason. Don't forget though, it's not the end when you reach med school; you've barely begun the journey and a lot of it is uphill. Not that you won't enjoy the challenge, but a lot of the time, it won't be fun.

In regards to money, I haven't really met any physicians that complain that they're too poor... But rather you have to deal with a lot of paperwork, overhead, and bureaucracy to make your pay which is a problem. I've heard an FP can make 150,000 by taking care of just 7 patients for an entire year IF there are no other costs. Obviously this doesn't happen. And when you are having to turn away patients with Medicare because you will lose money by seeing them, well, it has to feel bad at some point. In my case, one of my goals is to be able to do a lot of charity care, but it's hard when I'll be 200K in debt in my 30s looking at a 15 year repayment plan AND hoping to support a family AND when doing charity care actually means not that I'll be making zero for seeing a patient, but rather actually -losing- money for each "free" patient I see.

With the current system it's going to be hard enough to manage, but with slashed income.... Of course I would be against that.
 
I didn't bother to read the entire wall of text that the OP posted, let alone the rest of this thread but...

OP, my guess is that you were spoon-fed by your rich parents your whole life and have never learned to respect / had to work for money. It's quite easy to put down others who "gasp" go to work for money?! when you have plenty of money yourself.

Either that or you are just bat**** crazy

Yup, you def didn't read, because if you had, you'd know his upbringing was far from that.

Reading is good. It keeps up informed of what we're posting about.
 
I would agree with that sentiment though. I mean, you should definitely expect to be miserable....

Seriously? This has to be one of the dumbest things said in this thread.

What kind of person "definitely expects to be miserable"? I understand the idea of planning for the worst and hoping for the best, but c'mon man, expecting to be miserable? I can't even describe how dumb that sounds...I...just...can't...
 
Seriously? This has to be one of the dumbest things said in this thread.

What kind of person "definitely expects to be miserable"? I understand the idea of planning for the worst and hoping for the best, but c'mon man, expecting to be miserable? I can't even describe how dumb that sounds...I...just...can't...

*shrug*

I'm pretty miserable right now... I've been sitting in a windowless room for about 6 hours trying to study for a biochem exam I have lost interest in studying for, and it's 2 am... Yet I have to stay here because I'm woefully nowhere near where I should be.

Should I have expected that this would never happen? Times can be good, times can be bad. Never expecting to be miserable at some point is really unrealistic... I can't... Even... Describe how.... Much.......
 
P.S. Being miserable at the moment has no bearing on my overall happiness with life... Or even stress level for that matter. If you stand in the blizzard it's gonna suck, but it just makes it that much better when you're warming yourself by the fireplace-- regardless you gotta do what you gotta dooo...

P.P.S. Actually thinking about it now, I'm not -that- miserable at the moment. Not as much as I will be deep into the late marathon sleep-deprived hours of a weekend shift during intern year when every sane person on earth is fast asleep. Haha.

... Or when the first patient under my care dies...
 
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*shrug*

I'm pretty miserable right now... I've been sitting in a windowless room for about 6 hours trying to study for a biochem exam I have lost interest in studying for, and it's 2 am... Yet I have to stay here because I'm woefully nowhere near where I should be.

Should I have expected that this would never happen? Times can be good, times can be bad. Never expecting to be miserable at some point is really unrealistic... I can't... Even... Describe how.... Much.......

This is true, you will be miserable at some point guaranteed. Even if you like learning sitting around all day studying just get tedious and there will inevitably be something you want to do but cant because of med school. Yea there will also be some good times, like after a test. But the majority of your time 1st and 2nd year will be spent sitting and studying.

maybe miserable isnt the right word. But spending my youth in the library isnt exactly a lovely time.
 
This is true, you will be miserable at some point guaranteed. Even if you like learning sitting around all day studying just get tedious and there will inevitably be something you want to do but cant because of med school. Yea there will also be some good times, like after a test. But the majority of your time 1st and 2nd year will be spent sitting and studying.

maybe miserable isnt the right word. But spending my youth in the library isnt exactly a lovely time.

Everyone will be miserable at some point in their life. But I think if you go into something, WITH the mindset you are going to be miserable, you will seek out the misery. Subconsciously, when you're making decisions, you'll be making the ones that fulfill your own prophecy.
 
I didn't bother to read the entire wall of text that the OP posted, let alone the rest of this thread but...

OP, my guess is that you were spoon-fed by your rich parents your whole life and have never learned to respect / had to work for money. It's quite easy to put down others who "gasp" go to work for money?! when you have plenty of money yourself.

Either that or you are just bat**** crazy

Please learn to read before making accusations like that. You might actually feel like a giant tool if you read my early post about my personal finances.
 
Everyone will be miserable at some point in their life. But I think if you go into something, WITH the mindset you are going to be miserable, you will seek out the misery. Subconsciously, when you're making decisions, you'll be making the ones that fulfill your own prophecy.

👍
 
This is true, you will be miserable at some point guaranteed. Even if you like learning sitting around all day studying just get tedious and there will inevitably be something you want to do but cant because of med school. Yea there will also be some good times, like after a test. But the majority of your time 1st and 2nd year will be spent sitting and studying.

maybe miserable isnt the right word. But spending my youth in the library isnt exactly a lovely time.

Maybe I'm just underestimating this since I'm not in med school, but I feel like it would just be like a full time job except for the money of course. I hear from most med students that they study for 5 or 6 hours a day for first and second year, which I would rather do than work 8 hours in another job. 3rd and 4th years I'm sure is a different story though.
 
It hasn't jade me. I'm just still very confused why one would go into a career, that's literally a life commitment, if they knew before hand they were going to be miserable everyday of their life. It seems like a waste of a life time. We only live once. Don't spend it hating your job.

What I am trying to get across here, and I guess I haven't quite managed it yet, is that there is a difference between not liking your job and not liking your life. Odds are, if you have any kind of a reasonable income, you're not going to like your job. Some jobs might be slightly more tolerable than others, of course, but the vast majority of jobs with good incomes are not pleasant to do. There is, however, a lot of life that you live outside of the office. I think your best bet for a happy life is to plan to get your satisfaction in life when you're not in the hospital. Whether you find it in your family, in love, in faith, in community, in service, in nature or wherever else there is satifaction to be found out there. If you look to your job for meaning, though, I think you will be disappointed.

I think medicine is actually a pretty good career for living a happy life, if you approach it with the right perspective. Medical training is almost univerally miserable, but if you train hard you can have short and flexible hours, a excellent salary (might change, but hasn't changed yet), amazing job security, and very little supervision beginning in your early 30s. Also the job itself, once you're done with the training, is by no means more mind numbing or miserable than other professions. There's nothing unique about the fact that most doctors don't look forward to going to work, except for that fact that they for some reason thought they would.

I think the source of a lot of the misery in medicine is that so many people think that, if they work just a little harder and ask for a little less, medicine will start loving them back. Rather than seeing medicine as a means to an end, and focusing on improving their salaries, hours, and working conditions, they try to focus on medicine as an end unto itself and they work themselves half to death for ever fewer rewards. People do that in other professions to, of course, but Medicine seems to attract more than its fair share of Patty Hursts. I think it would be healthiest for as many premeds as possible to adopt a more realistic attitude about what medicine can and can't offer them.

So my advice is this: don't expect more or less from medicine than you would from a job in engineering, accounting, or construction. Don't make decisions that only make sense in the context of amazing job satisfaction, because your satisfaction is not going to come from your job. Are you a middle aged professional with a good income looking to switch careers so that you can do something 'meaningful'? There is no more meaning here than in your last job. Wouldn't it be worth it to gun through medical school and land a sweet General Surgery Residency? There is nothing sweet about working 100 hour weeks in an abusive enviornment, definitely nothing worth studying on Saturday nights for through all of your 20s. Is this profession still worth it if they pay for Obamacare by cutting our pay and increasing our hours? F- no. On the other hand if what you want is job security, a good income, and good hours after you turn 30, and if you're willing to frontload a lot of misery in exchange, I think medicine can be a very satisfying career. Also our salaries haven't been sacrificed to Obamacare quite yet. If we can just stop offering them to big government on a platter I think there's a good chance they never will be.
 
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Maybe I'm just underestimating this since I'm not in med school, but I feel like it would just be like a full time job except for the money of course. I hear from most med students that they study for 5 or 6 hours a day for first and second year, which I would rather do than work 8 hours in another job. 3rd and 4th years I'm sure is a different story though.
Studying 6 hours a day is a lot harder than working 8 hours a day, at least for me, and for any classmates that I ever asked. Your mileage may vary, but most people who work 8 hours a day aren't working anywhere near that entire time. Likewise, you won't study 6 hours straight, but you'll feel guilty if you take more than a few short breaks.
 
If these are the kinds of comments you're looking 4, there's a 4um meant 4 that kind of banter. If you know what I mean. We really don't need to turn SDN into that.

lolwut...but turning SDN into a forum of 99% pessimism is A OK right?...Next.
 
This thread is great. Trolls trolling trolls, who are in turn retrolling.


Larson-FarSide-WolfinSheepclothing.jpg
 
lolwut...but turning SDN into a forum of 99% pessimism is A OK right?...Next.

Exactly, I think I've been personally attacked more times than I can count in this thread. All for being "altruistic." SDN is as high class as it gets.


Misery loves company.
 
It helps to have a quote to go with these pictures. Cuz I don't get it.

Sorry...I meant "due to the fact that" I don't get it.

"...pictures, because I don't get it"? 😕
 
It helps to have a quote to go with these pictures. Cuz I don't get it.

Sorry...I meant "due to the fact that" I don't get it.

"...pictures, because I don't get it"? 😕

Haha, I wouldn't worry about it.

I'm personally expressing the fact that this thread went beyond a real discussion pages ago. There's two types of people in this thread. Those who say they're not going to be miserable, and those who say EVERYONE will be miserable. That's all that's been happening.

Oh, and the people who are saying they're not going to be miserable, they're just inexperienced and naive lol.
 
Maybe I'm just underestimating this since I'm not in med school, but I feel like it would just be like a full time job except for the money of course. I hear from most med students that they study for 5 or 6 hours a day for first and second year, which I would rather do than work 8 hours in another job. 3rd and 4th years I'm sure is a different story though.

I put in a more than that, I think most people do. There's a wide range depending on your talent and ambitions but I think a 60 hour work week plus a couple of cram days before the test is pretty average. You're right that the first two years is relatively relaxed.
 
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Everyone will be miserable at some point in their life. But I think if you go into something, WITH the mindset you are going to be miserable, you will seek out the misery. Subconsciously, when you're making decisions, you'll be making the ones that fulfill your own prophecy.

Perhaps. That kind of thing really depends on the person. They can go in thinking they will be miserable and then be pleasantly surprised or they can go in finding more misery like you say.

However, we go into medicine to work with patients etc. sitting in the library all day studying is a necessary evil to get there. Youre not goin to be working with patients for a while. Theres not that much thats rewarding about med school.

Maybe I'm just underestimating this since I'm not in med school, but I feel like it would just be like a full time job except for the money of course. I hear from most med students that they study for 5 or 6 hours a day for first and second year, which I would rather do than work 8 hours in another job. 3rd and 4th years I'm sure is a different story though.

Well working your standard 9-5 is probably easier than studying. Learning is much more of an active process, it just takes more brain power to learn than to do. You cant just go home and forget it at the end day. You'll love your weekends more, just because you have more time to study without new material, while most working folks get their weekends off. Plus with the job youre getting paid. In med school you pay to get your ass kicked.

5-6 hours doesnt sound bad, but thats for non test weeks. On test weeks you need more. To put it in terms of undergrad, everyday of medschool feels like the day before the test (in undergrad), only you know about a quarter of the material.

So if you stay caught up you'll be in much better shape. But its ridiculously easy to get behind. Even one day can make a huge difference.
 
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