Anybody interested in discussing world peace?

[GWD]

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The Biblical canon.. meaning Genesis through Revelation were contributed by the Christian and Jewish faiths

The Jews call the old testament the Torah, and new believers call both testaments the Bible, and Catholics call them both plus an addition the Apocrypha...

It's a principle, right? An united understanding?

According to Muhammad, Moses and Jesus are prophets, and yet believers of Islam are willing to kill all of us over a misunderstanding?

I call shenanigans on the POOPIE! dogma that seperates mankind.

Bulls*it to the dogmatic crap that causes societies to throw down and be willing to kill each other over misinterpretation. Somebody read the book. Has anybody read the book?

I'm trying.. if you read ANY of these teachings, you will see a loving God that wants mankind to prosper.. not seek war upon one another

This is the greatest tragedy to befall contempery society we have seen.. we all worship the same God.. why don't we just realize it already?

 

[GWD]

This might possibly be the stupiest dilema in the history of mankind

set-up: a christian, a jew, and a muslim physician walk into a bar

punch-line: nobody cares that he is hurt

 

[GWD]

As you have done unto the least of these, so have you done unto me

 

[GWD]

Wiw... I could've used a little more cowbell..

 

[GliaGirl]

Well, I don't know what silly misunderstanding you're referring to in particular, but I think the difference is in the interpretation of the texts. In some religions, it is still common to take things very literally, while in others the interpretation is more suited to the "modern" world. Not for me to say who is right, but it seems like we can't really blame the problem on the books themselves. It is a personal choice to take the life of another based on what some written words tell you. In the books of all three religions it explicitly states that it is our duty to kill all those who are not the same religion as us, but I feel that it is a personal choice if you want the book to teach you peace and love or hatred and destruction. The Jews did the same thing to the "primitive" tribes of early Israel. The Christians did he same thing to the Muslims in the crusades. And now some tiny handful of Muslims are doing it back. It's all in how willing you are to be literal about the text.

And I don't know what book you are reading, but the Jewish G-d is a really, REALLY angry and mean G-d. Much more so than the Muslim prophets. Muslim people are almost exclusively peace-loving people: it's been ruined by the handful, but we can't blame the other 1-2 billion people in the world. You can't say that they are willing to kill us because of their religion. Take away Islam, and Muslim Extremists would find something else to rally their cause. Islam is an innocent bystander in this kind of situation. Those people chose to hate and murder, and it doesn't matter what they use to justify it. If they justified it using the movie "300" would that change things? We wouldn't blame the movie "300" right? The rest of us don't kill after seeing that movie. We wouldn't automatically hate everyone who had seen the movie, just because a couple of people went crazy after and killed a hobo.

I think that it's important to know that there are extremists in all cultures, and until we stop categorizing people based on what book they read, there will always be violence. I look forward to the day in the future when there has been so much interbreeding between cultures that we can't tell what race we are.

Well, I don't know what silly misunderstanding you're referring to in particular, but I think the difference is in the interpretation of the texts. In some religions, it is still common to take things very literally, while in others the interpretation is more suited to the "modern" world. Not for me to say who is right, but it seems like we can't really blame the problem on the books themselves. It is a personal choice to take the life of another based on what some written words tell you. In the books of all three religions it explicitly states that it is our duty to kill all those who are not the same religion as us, but I feel that it is a personal choice if you want the book to teach you peace and love or hatred and destruction. The Jews did the same thing to the "primitive" tribes of early Israel. The Christians did he same thing to the Muslims in the crusades. And now some tiny handful of Muslims are doing it back. It's all in how willing you are to be literal about the text.

And I don't know what book you are reading, but the Jewish G-d is a really, REALLY angry and mean G-d. He is tough love! Much more so than the Muslim prophets. Muslim people are almost exclusively peace-loving people: it's been ruined by the handful, but we can't blame the other 1-2 billion people in the world. You can't say that they are willing to kill us because of their religion. Take away Islam, and Muslim Extremists would find something else to rally their cause. Islam is an innocent bystander in this kind of situation. Those people chose to hate and murder, and it doesn't matter what they use to justify it. If they justified it using the movie "300" would that change things? We wouldn't blame the movie "300" right? The rest of us didn't kill after seeing that movie. We wouldn't automatically hate everyone who had seen the movie, just because a couple of people went crazy after and killed a hobo or something. The backlash against Islam has been exaggerated and ridiculous in my opinion.

I think that it's important to know that there are extremists in all cultures, and until we stop categorizing people based on what book they read, there will always be violence. I look forward to the day in the future when there has been so much interbreeding between cultures that we can't tell what race we are.

I wish I had an answer to the Middle East. I am Israeli (born here, but a dual citizen) and a lot of my family lives in Israel. It tears at my heart to hear about fighting, and I wish that some of the huge neighbors of Israel would offer up a couple of square miles of land to house the poor Palestinian people. Israel is so small, and we can give pieces of it away until the cows come home, but that will not stop those who want it wiped off the face of the planet. Those people don't give one lick about the Palestinians; they only want an excuse to continue to hate Israel. I think the Palestinians deserve better than to be forced to be martyrs. What about all of the requests by Palestinian people to be allowed to move to other Arab nations and resettle that go completely unanswered? They just want to live and be happy, but they are kept down by a radical few who see this as a good excuse to continue the cycle of hatred and violence. It really makes me sick that those poor people are caught in the middle of this ridiculousness.

.I obviously have my own personal thoughts, and I will respect everyone else's, but I will not condone any blanket statements that Muslims are terrorists or anything ridiculous like that. Hatred is hatred, no matter what book you read it in. ..
.

 

[itsallthesame]

and the chinese gov't (and many others) feels that because religion is stupid, progress can only occur if people are taught to believe in science so violence is fine to oust religion.

no war has ever really had anything to do with religion, per se. it's all about group dynamics: people want to further their own kind, and the expense of others is always the cost. religion, science, skin color are all just excuses to justify people being *******s and wanting something better for themselves. clearly no good christian, jew, mulsim, buddhist, african, irish, athiest, transgendered water polo player, indian, cowboy, president, scientist or doctor would ever really be able to justify harming someone based on their belief/identity. war always comes down to greed or revenge.

 

[dmblue]

BTW

Jewish God = Christian God, so the christian god is also very very angry

 

[gbwillner]

The Biblical canon.. meaning Genesis through Revelation were contributed by the Christian and Jewish faiths

The Jews call the old testament the Torah, and new believers call both testaments the Bible, and Catholics call them both plus an addition the Apocrypha...

It's a principle, right? An united understanding?

Um... Let's see....

While Muslims believe in the "same God" as Christians and Jews, they have reasons for disliking both groups, on religious (non-cultural/historical) reasons.

1. While they do believe there is one God, they do not hold the Torah/Old Testament as a sacred text, but an imperfect version of the word of god. That is because, as I understand it, the "Complete Works of God" was told to Mohammad the prophet directly by God, independently of any previous event. It is only coincidence that the stories are eerily similar to those of the Jews/Christians. That means Jews have an imperfect view of God, even though they believe they share ancestries.

2. Muslims hold Jesus to be a prophet. Because Christians believe Jesus to be the son of God as well as God himself, they are committing blasphemy, as there is clearly only one God, and it ain't Jeebuz.

As far as peace in the middle east.... good luck with that. In this country Muslims are far more secular than in the rest of the world. They assimilate well, even the very religious ones and hold dear the American values of freedom of religion and press. That comes with respecting others' opinions. I would say this is not true in most of the rest of the world. Even of the "terrorists" are a small minority, their actions are permitted, even glorified by both the eastern press, Imams, the Arab/Persian governments. That translates to the sheeple condoning many of their actions. until that changes the "terrorists" will enjoy popular support as they do now.
I think another main problem is the cultural differences between East and West. We think of ourselves mainly as individuals- we are far more egocentric. We separate those who do things we dislike from their relatives and neighbors. It seems to me that Arab/Eastern culture is not necessarily so- an insult to one of them by one person can be am insult to their culture and faith, and if you belong to the same group as the offender you are equally guilty. Look at the rise in anti-Semitism in Europe following the Gaza invasion- 3 synagogues attacked, one a coordinated attack in France where they drove a burning car into the synegogue fence. I saw an article from Denmark yesterday saying that Jews would not be permitted to enroll in mostly Muslim schools for safety reasons. WTF do you think that means? It means if you are a Jew and simply want to attend school you have a high likelihood of being harmed or killed by your Muslim colleagues because you are a Jew.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D95HN1H02&show_article=1
http://www.cphpost.dk/news/national/88-national/43930-schools-caught-up-in-palestinian-conflict.html
/end rant
//flame away

 

[Katatonic]

I'm trying.. if you read ANY of these teachings, you will see a loving God that wants mankind to prosper.. not seek war upon one another

The bible that I read contained an God who was evil and murderous, who is not worthy of one second of praise.

 

[WorkaholicsAnon]

The bible that I read contained an God who was evil and murderous, who is not worthy of one second of praise.

Interesting. Your sentiment sounds very similar to what teenagers think about their parents when they are not allowed to do every stupid thing they want to.😉

 

[Katatonic]

Interesting. Your sentiment sounds very similar to what teenagers think about their parents when they are not allowed to do every stupid thing they want to.😉

Apologies if we're reading a different book, but in the Bible you read did God intentionally kill almost everyone on the entire planet? I seem to recall that in my version. 😀

 

[Doctor&Geek]

Hey! Moderator! Move to the SPF!

 

[Katatonic]

Hey! Moderator! Move to the SPF!

Noooo those guys are crazy! (No offense to the SPF, but seriously, I don't have time to cite every single thing I say haha).

 

[gbwillner]

Apologies if we're reading a different book, but in the Bible you read did God intentionally kill almost everyone on the entire planet? I seem to recall that in my version. 😀

Yeah, but those people were wicked, so it was OK... Even the childrens.

 

[gbwillner]

Noooo those guys are crazy! (No offense to the SPF, but seriously, I don't have time to cite every single thing I say haha).

What is SPF?

 

[Jorje286]

The creation of Israel was always going to be a problematic issue on an ethical level and I think it's from there that religious extremist organizations are drawing their support in the Arab public (and using it to their own advantage). I don't like when the conflict is completely reduced to "Jews vs Muslims" fighting over religion, because that's not true. That's only one part of the dynamic.

 

[QofQuimica]

What is SPF?

Sociopolitical forum.

We have the occasional random discussion threads in a lot of the other academic forums, so I'm fine with keeping this one here as long as people stay civil. Assuming Neuro is also ok with it, of course. 🙂

Edit: GWD, you're talking to yourself again. Is it just me, or does anyone here find that disturbing??? 😀

 

[Neuronix]

We have the occasional random discussion threads in a lot of the other academic forums, so I'm fine with keeping this one here as long as people stay civil. Assuming Neuro is also ok with it, of course. 🙂

Indeed. I don't mind as long as the posts/threads aren't offensive and there's not so many they take over the forum. Technically this thread should be in the Everyone (Sociopolitical) Forum or in the All-Students Forum (which is where the wall of hate would have me put it), and I could move it. But, whatever. It's just kind of the way it's always been around here. This isn't the zoo that is pre-allo. PA requires all off-topic threads to be moved, because before you know there will be 100 AA threads that overshadow the important discussions about pre-med advising. Here things are much more laid back, so I think it adds something other than the usual "How can I get into a MD/PhD program???" that I hear people complain about too frequently.

 

[gbwillner]

Here things are much more laid back, so I think it adds something other than the usual "How can I get into a MD/PhD program???" that I hear people complain about too frequently.

YES.. thank you. My eyes bleed every time I see another "Do I have a chance?" thread or "What should my major be?" or "Anyone hear from program X yet?"

As far as GWD... don't worry... it's all the psychedelic drugs he's manufacturing in lab that's causing him to hallucinate and have a conversation with himself. 😀

/I keed!

 

[gbwillner]

The creation of Israel was always going to be a problematic issue on an ethical level and I think it's from there that religious extremist organizations are drawing their support in the Arab public (and using it to their own advantage). I don't like when the conflict is completely reduced to "Jews vs Muslims" fighting over religion, because that's not true. That's only one part of the dynamic.

Yes... both sides (Hamas and Israel) have political aims they wish to obtain with the current conflict.

Hamas wants to force Israel and Egypt to open up all its borders. They hope the escalation in violence will cause enough of a stir that the international community will force Israel into a ceasefire and open up the borders. This, in effect, would legitimize Hamas as the government of Gaza (Don't forget they seized power in a coup and are not recognized by anyone). I think the invasion into Gaza was exactly what Hamas wanted, although at this point I doubt they wanted it to go this far... I suspect they expected Israel to just bomb them for a while, kill a bunch of civilians, and then back down to international furor. they also wanted to form a rift between Israel and Egypt (they may still succeed there). If Hamas can get Hezbollah and others to join the fight (Ghadafi is currently trying to set up an international force to oppose Israel) the international powers may have no choice to give in to some of Hamas' aims to prevent a region-wide war.

Israel does not want to legitimize Hamas, an organization whose charter 1) calls for the destruction of Israel 2) claims the Jooos want to take over the world, as outlined in their secret book "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and 3) is a proxy to Iran. Israel's (and Egypt's) goal is to put a stranglehold on Gaza (with the blockade) until the residents stop supporting Hamas. The continuation of the rocket fire was just a provocation for a while... but Israel is using this opportunity to tighten the noose around Hamas, to isolate them further, not to mention retaliate for the attacks. I bet there are those in Israel who feel that with leveling Gaza the residents will realize the mistake of supporting Hamas.... While others think it will only fuel support.

Right now, neither side will back down, as both think they are currently winning (i.e., achieving their goals). They will have to fight on until one side realizes they cannot accomplish their goal and will negotiate. That's the way these things work. Civilian deaths are an unfortunate side effect for Israel, but a great political tool for Hamas, who has a lot more to gain from them.

 

[WorkaholicsAnon]

Apologies if we're reading a different book, but in the Bible you read did God intentionally kill almost everyone on the entire planet? I seem to recall that in my version. 😀

People who believe in God also believe that God created everyone and everything in the world and universe. As such, God has a right to destroy whatever God created, much like a kid playing with play-doh has a right to destroy a messed up play-doh house, or a writer has a right to crumple up a piece of writing that the writer thinks is no good.

So, it shouldn't be for humans to judge God's actions. And if you dont believe in God, this isn'tsomething you should care about anyway in the first place.

 

[Katatonic]

People who believe in God also believe that God created everyone and everything in the world and universe. As such, God has a right to destroy whatever God created, much like a kid playing with play-doh has a right to destroy a messed up play-doh house, or a writer has a right to crumple up a piece of writing that the writer thinks is no good.

So, it shouldn't be for humans to judge God's actions. And if you dont believe in God, this isn'tsomething you should care about anyway in the first place.

I could pick apart the God arguments all day, that's not the point of this thread though. The fact that I do not think there is any God/gods does not mean I shouldn't care about this. I care about this deeply as it is affecting real people.

 

[WorkaholicsAnon]

I could pick apart the God arguments all day, that's not the point of this thread though. The fact that I do not think there is any God/gods does not mean I shouldn't care about this. I care about this deeply as it is affecting real people.

Religion is a personal choice and it's not for you to try to convert people to atheism or any other religion or belief system they dont currently believe in. In attempting to do so, the only thing you are achieving is showing yourself to be not only ignorant and irreverent in their eyes, but also pushy and someone to be avoided.

 

[GliaGirl]

Religion is a personal choice and it's not for you to try to convert people to atheism or any other religion or belief system they dont currently believe in. In attempting to do so, the only thing you are achieving is showing yourself to be not only ignorant and irreverent in their eyes, but also pushy and someone to be avoided.

I don't think that's fair. When people's religious choices lead to them attacking and attempting to murder me, I'd say that counts as "affecting" me. People have every right to believe in G-d and anything else they want to believe in, but people can't be expected to stand idly by when others are trying to persecute them due to the misguided belief that their views are better somehow. I obviously think that my beliefs are better than everyone else's, or else I wouldn't have them, but you don't see me going around trying to kill those who don't share them. The point is not that they are wrong for having those beliefs. I don't care if people don't believe in evolution, but when they try to cut "blasphemous" scientific funding, I have a problem with that.

The point is: I don't care what other people believe in, but only if they extend that same courtesy in return.

 

[gbwillner]

We think of religion differently in this country than they do in other parts of the world. Here, religion is a personal thing- in many near-Eastern countries it is a very public thing. In many muslim countries changing your mind about religion (converting out of Islam) is a legal indiscretion that carries a penalty of death. Keep that in mind when discussing religion and "world peace".

Look at the curent Gaza situation to see more evidence of the politics involved in the conflict. Israel has halted its operation unilaterally. I didn't think they would go this way, but in a way I think it was a brilliant move. A unilateral disengagement allows Israel to:
1- Give Obama a chance to breathe (they may have told him in advance they would stop before he came into office)
2- claim some type of victory, citing their vague goals for the campaign
3- not have to directly deal with or even address Hamas while stopping the rockets (so as to not legitamize Hamas' direct objectives
4- remain in control of the borders within Gaza while still negotiating with foreign powers to set up foreign patrols of the area

Hamas did achieve some of its goals, like gain more world-wide as well as internal support. However, they failed to form a rift between Israel and Egypt, they failed to draw in other powers into the conflict, and, most importantly, they failed to achieve their primary goal: to open up the Gaza borders.

Ultimately this struggle is entire political. It would be easy for Hamas to open their borders. All they would have to do is compromise their charter (change their stance on the "kill all the jooos" doctrine), and accept the original coalition government with Abbas and Fatah as part of the ruling party. However, they won't do this and the Palestinian people will suffer as a consequence. As for Israel, they cannot "destroy" Hamas, but only hope to put enough pressure on them to change their ways.

 

[CancerKiller007]

World peace is a flimsy concept, and its achievement is and will be a day dream for it is against a basic human nature. Every human being, may be not on SDN 😉, to some degree will have one or more of those 7 great sins, and this will eventually lead to conflicts.

Disagree with me? Well, I ask you to find any stretch of human history where humans have enjoy peace that lasted more than a decade even better five years. Just go to wikipedia and look at the historic events happening on any particular day. You, inevitably, will find war on any given day in history.

As for Gaza conflict, I think it is more complicated. Israel has every right and even obligation to protect her citizens, but with this conflict it is hard to see where they are going. Hamas is an ideology more than organization. They will destroy some Hamas outposts in Gaza, and kill some leaders. It will all be re-built and 5 years down the road we will be back to the square one. Here is something I found insightful on this issue.

There are only two ways to deal with this problem:
1) perpetual war. Isolate Palestine from the Hamas. Frame the case in a manner in which you describe people of palestine as vicitims of Hamas. Capture extremists relentlessly, punish them mercilessly, and make examples out of them in hope to instill fear in the rest of the people.

2) one state solution with equal rights for arabs and jews. 'nuff said. I can already feel the blowbacks from my jewish friends.

As for religion: I have nothing against any religion. I look towards it for guidance in difficlut times, but anytime you have religions, at least extremities of a religion, calling for end of other religions than we have a serious problem.

 

[GliaGirl]

There already is one state with equal rights for Arabs and Jews: its called Israel. There are millions of Arabs living in Israel. The problem is, the only way to reasonably accommodate all the Palestinians would be to incorperate Gaza and the West Bank into Israel, which would NEVER fly with hammas and other organizations like it.

 

[CancerKiller007]

I know there are millions of Arab living, but i do not know if I would call Israel secular country as I would call USA and UK secular. I think separation of church and state is very thin in the Jewish State of Israel. If I was an Arab muslim living in Isarel, I am not sure if I would feel that I am living in a secular state, especially with the Star of David flying over my head. I am not saying that Jews, who are majority, should just give up their religious belives to accomodate muslims, but both sides will have to give up somethings for the greater good.

In any case, what I meant to say in my last post was: systematically destroy (cleanse if you will) Hamas ideology and than integrate.

I know it will never fly. As an RA, I had to deal with a few zealous jewish and muslim students. One time, we were talking about the two state solution, and I suggested that they should do one state solution. Needless to say that I got good tounge lashing from the both sides 😉

 

[Jorje286]

There already is one state with equal rights for Arabs and Jews: its called Israel. There are millions of Arabs living in Israel. The problem is, the only way to reasonably accommodate all the Palestinians would be to incorperate Gaza and the West Bank into Israel, which would NEVER fly with hammas and other organizations like it.

I read somewhere (I can look up the link) that something like 70% of Arabs favored a one state solution with equal rights to Jews, Christians and Muslims in a survey. This solution won't fly with Hamas as much as it won't with Israel (actually I would say Hamas would be even more favorable), cause Jews would become a minority and Israel would lose its "Jewish identitiy." That's the prime reason why the 1948 refugees didn't come back and why the 20% Arab Israelis are seen as a demographic threat by some rightish Israeli groups.

The still only realistic solution is a two-state solution, and for both parties to accept each other and make some concessions. It's easier said than done, of course, but there's a will on both sides (the Arab League offer for example). And I would agree that the major obstacle is Hamas. And imo the best way to combat Hamas is to open up the Palestinian territories to the world economically, and offer the Palestinians the chance to prosper. I don't think people will support extremist groups who will continually drag them to war and destruction if they actually have something to look up for on the other side. How to acheive that is another story, but I think it has to ultimately involve dealing with Hamas.

 

[WorkaholicsAnon]

I don't think that's fair. When people's religious choices lead to them attacking and attempting to murder me, I'd say that counts as "affecting" me. People have every right to believe in G-d and anything else they want to believe in, but people can't be expected to stand idly by when others are trying to persecute them due to the misguided belief that their views are better somehow. I obviously think that my beliefs are better than everyone else's, or else I wouldn't have them, but you don't see me going around trying to kill those who don't share them. The point is not that they are wrong for having those beliefs. I don't care if people don't believe in evolution, but when they try to cut "blasphemous" scientific funding, I have a problem with that.

The point is: I don't care what other people believe in, but only if they extend that same courtesy in return.

I am with you on this GliaGirl. I am not sure though why you quoted me in your rebuttal, as we seem to be on the same side, and your rebuttal has nothing to do with my point, which was aimed at Katatonic and his premise that God is evil, angry, and murderous and he cant understand why people believe in God and hold Him sacred.

 

[GWD]

Wow!

I gotta get some sleep.. this one is way over my head!

you can bet your post-piss-pop-toasties I will be back in this one with a flourish soon though!

 

[GliaGirl]

Two state solution would be fine and dandy, but the biggest problems are 1) OK, the Palestinians can have Gaza and the West Bank, but honestly that is not a 2 state solution, its a 3 state solution which is already causing problems and 2) Jerusalem. What will happen to Jerusalem? Everyone wants Jerusalem. Its silly to think that the city can be split down the middle. The last time someone tried to split a city, the Berlin Wall happened.

I would love it if Jordan could give up some of it land, expand the West Bank to the east a bit, and make a real home where the Palestinians can live. Then just give the Gaza Strip back to Egypt or something and everyone can go home happy.

And remember, if Jews don't inhabit Jerusalem, Jesus won't come back, so... yeah.

 

[gbwillner]

Two state solution would be fine and dandy, but the biggest problems are 1) OK, the Palestinians can have Gaza and the West Bank, but honestly that is not a 2 state solution, its a 3 state solution which is already causing problems and 2) Jerusalem. What will happen to Jerusalem? Everyone wants Jerusalem. Its silly to think that the city can be split down the middle. The last time someone tried to split a city, the Berlin Wall happened.

I would love it if Jordan could give up some of it land, expand the West Bank to the east a bit, and make a real home where the Palestinians can live. Then just give the Gaza Strip back to Egypt or something and everyone can go home happy.

And remember, if Jews don't inhabit Jerusalem, Jesus won't come back, so... yeah.

There are lots of real and practical "solutions" to this crisis. However, none will ever be reasonably attempted. There are too many people who will shoot them down or be unwilling to make substantial sacrifices to make any of them happen. Israel giving up Gaza was no big deal. They never wanted it anyway (by "they" I mean a vast majority of Israelis). It was WAY too much trouble. A few hundred settlers amongst millions of Palestinians. Jerusalem is a whole other matter, with surrounding suburbs that encroach well into the West Bank. Is Israel going to evacuate hundreds of thousands of people? Most of them would not even consider themselves settlers but just suburbanites. Israel will never give up Jerusalem or its suburbs.
On the flip side, the Palestinians seem to want to stick to this "right of return" nonsense. The fleeing refugees were in the thousands (probably hundred thousand or so) in 1948... but their descendants are now in the millions. Israel will never allow them to enter the country. First, they are openly hostile to the Jewish state, and second, they would instantly make Jews a near-minority in their own country. Forget it, it will never happen. Yet many peace deals have fallen through because the Palestinians demand it- as well as ownership of their original lands that have been subsequently developed.
In the meantime, Israel continues to annex more West Bank land and build on it, making returning that land and removing its inhabitants more and more difficult. On the other side, the Palestinians on the Gaza side elect a government that is openly racist and calls for the destruction of Israel and
the murder of Jews. How is Israel supposed to deal with them? There is no good way. Blow them up and they gain more support. Concede to them and they gain more support, because their tactics appear to work. Not only that, but Hamas, once in power, has done everything it can to make sure it stays that way, by murdering their opponents.
You also have to remember that there are many different opinions in Israel about the situation, and with every election the winds change and directions change... meaning that there is no directed goal in this process. The government preaches peace and wants to deal, but at the same time others take land and develop it, further inciting the Arabs. The end result of this is that things continually get worse over time, not better. If I were the Palestinians right now I would declare a Palestinian state in the West Bank right now and take whatever I could get. That might show Gaza what they can achieve through peace and maybe one day they can be annexed. The longer the wait the less they get. I think most are still holding out for a large regional war that will wipe out Israel, and they can get it all back. This is definitely Hamas' plan.

And do you really think Egypt wants Gaza back? really? it's like inheriting your broke uncle's trailer with four liens on it, raccoons living in the crawlspace, and the Klan meeting on the front porch.

 

[Jorje286]

There are lots of real and practical "solutions" to this crisis. However, none will ever be reasonably attempted. There are too many people who will shoot them down or be unwilling to make substantial sacrifices to make any of them happen. Israel giving up Gaza was no big deal. They never wanted it anyway (by "they" I mean a vast majority of Israelis). It was WAY too much trouble. A few hundred settlers amongst millions of Palestinians. Jerusalem is a whole other matter, with surrounding suburbs that encroach well into the West Bank. Is Israel going to evacuate hundreds of thousands of people? Most of them would not even consider themselves settlers but just suburbanites. Israel will never give up Jerusalem or its suburbs.
On the flip side, the Palestinians seem to want to stick to this "right of return" nonsense. The fleeing refugees were in the thousands (probably hundred thousand or so) in 1948... but their descendants are now in the millions. Israel will never allow them to enter the country. First, they are openly hostile to the Jewish state, and second, they would instantly make Jews a near-minority in their own country. Forget it, it will never happen. Yet many peace deals have fallen through because the Palestinians demand it- as well as ownership of their original lands that have been subsequently developed.
In the meantime, Israel continues to annex more West Bank land and build on it, making returning that land and removing its inhabitants more and more difficult. On the other side, the Palestinians on the Gaza side elect a government that is openly racist and calls for the destruction of Israel and
the murder of Jews. How is Israel supposed to deal with them? There is no good way. Blow them up and they gain more support. Concede to them and they gain more support, because their tactics appear to work. Not only that, but Hamas, once in power, has done everything it can to make sure it stays that way, by murdering their opponents.
You also have to remember that there are many different opinions in Israel about the situation, and with every election the winds change and directions change... meaning that there is no directed goal in this process. The government preaches peace and wants to deal, but at the same time others take land and develop it, further inciting the Arabs. The end result of this is that things continually get worse over time, not better. If I were the Palestinians right now I would declare a Palestinian state in the West Bank right now and take whatever I could get. That might show Gaza what they can achieve through peace and maybe one day they can be annexed. The longer the wait the less they get. I think most are still holding out for a large regional war that will wipe out Israel, and they can get it all back. This is definitely Hamas' plan.

And do you really think Egypt wants Gaza back? really? it's like inheriting your broke uncle's trailer with four liens on it, raccoons living in the crawlspace, and the Klan meeting on the front porch.

Agreed with the whole perspective. I used to be more passionately involved in the whole thing, but there's too much hate on both sides, and the only victims are the innocents trapped in the whole thing (especially on the Palestinian side), like the Doctor who had his family killed in Gaza. On one side, you have the Islamist fundamentalist wackos who still believe they can root out Israel and restore "Muslim land" and Jerusalem, and on the other hand, there are those who believe the West Bank is Jewish land and it's OK to settle occupied land. It's kinda ironic that the most moderate part (after the new Israeli government is sworn in) will be the PLO and Abbas, and that's saying a lot. I do think the Arab peace initiative presented by the Arab league is a viable solution, though their stance on the refugees doesn't seem to be all too clear. But I agree, the Arabs need to forget about refugees returning to proper Israel though some form of financial assistance for them coming back to the West Bank or to be settle where they are would be fair.

 

[gbwillner]

Agreed with the whole perspective. I used to be more passionately involved in the whole thing, but there's too much hate on both sides, and the only victims are the innocents trapped in the whole thing (especially on the Palestinian side), like the Doctor who had his family killed in Gaza. On one side, you have the Islamist fundamentalist wackos who still believe they can root out Israel and restore "Muslim land" and Jerusalem, and on the other hand, there are those who believe the West Bank is Jewish land and it's OK to settle occupied land. It's kinda ironic that the most moderate part (after the new Israeli government is sworn in) will be the PLO and Abbas, and that's saying a lot. I do think the Arab peace initiative presented by the Arab league is a viable solution, though their stance on the refugees doesn't seem to be all too clear. But I agree, the Arabs need to forget about refugees returning to proper Israel though some form of financial assistance for them coming back to the West Bank or to be settle where they are would be fair.

While I agree that the Arab League initiative you speak of is the farthest any Arab party has been willing to go, it will still never happen because it is fixed on the 1967 borders (pre-six-day war), meaning Israel would not only have to give up all of the natural expansion of Jerusalem in the West Bank, it would also have to withdraw from 1/2 of the city itself- and as it stands now there are almost 1 million people living there. Not to mention it is Israel's capital! How is israel going to move 1/2 a million people? How can they compensate them for their land and property? And why should they make such a sacrifice when: A) They are the military power and B) They can't trust the Arabs anyway?

 

[simlamblue]

And why should they make such a sacrifice when: A) They are the military power...

might is right...