Anyone choose the more expensive option and don't regret it?

[pp9]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Honestly, I'm sort of amazed that it's even 10-11% given how expensive vet school is. Haha.

Same. 10% still seems high, but when I sit down and think about all of the scholarships a few of my classmates get every year, plus the very well paying internships those same people have gotten, it does come pretty close to 10%. If you're IS, get a $10,000+ scholarship every year, make several thousands every summer/winter, and so on, you can come pretty darn close to pay your costs entirely, especially if you came into school with money saved for the costs. The other 1-2% would be the small handful of classmates that have shared with me that their parents are paying their tuition and living costs.

With that being said, 90% graduate with debt, and a good chunk of that 90% would probably say they are being crushed by their debt.

 

[pp9]

Thank you so much. It seems obvious now that you've said it but I bet I wouldn't have figured that out for a very long time. Do you think that planning for forgiveness could justify the cost of a more expensive school?

Don't bank on the forgiveness program existing by the time you need it. Never put all of your eggs in one basket, especially when it comes to the government. Current house Republicans just introduced a bill to eliminate the forgiveness aspect of PAYE and REPAYE. If it passes, anyone graduating after June 2018 won't be able to work towards loan forgiveness. House Republicans May End Student Loan Forgiveness

If you look at the very end there, there is also an effort being made to cap how much grad/professional students can borrow. Idk what the heck would happen if that passed. Schools can't just drop their tuition for OOS students so we don't have to come up with the missing 100k.

 

[JaynaAli]

Don't bank on the forgiveness program existing by the time you need it. Never put all of your eggs in one basket, especially when it comes to the government. Current house Republicans just introduced a bill to eliminate the forgiveness aspect of PAYE and REPAYE. If it passes, anyone graduating after June 2018 won't be able to work towards loan forgiveness. House Republicans May End Student Loan Forgiveness

If you look at the very end there, there is also an effort being made to cap how much grad/professional students can borrow. Idk what the heck would happen if that passed. Schools can't just drop their tuition for OOS students so we don't have to come up with the missing 100k.

Minor point, but it says people who ENROLL after June 2018 would be under the new rules, not anyone who enters repayment after June '18. So c/o 2019ers like yourself shouldn't be affected. Clearly things could change, but when you first take out loans you and the government sign the Master Promissory Note contract that outlines the amounts, terms and repayment options that are available for you. Yes, new legislation could come along, but it would be opening the potential for a huge lawsuit from millions of people to try to remove their options outlined in that contract, which is why most of these proposals focus on future borrowers and not current ones. It's definitely something we need to keep a close eye on moving forward, but in theory, things wouldn't change until the vet med class of 2023 starts from everything I've read.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

I would be particularly interested to hear from recent graduates. Thanks!

I think this is a subject that you really should consider talking to established veterinarians, because they're the ones living year after year with an extra $100,000 in debt. That level of debt doesn't really mean as much until you see how it affects your life and the choices you can make over the next 5 or 10 years.

 

[psilovethomas]

I went OOS (was able to convert to IS after 1.5 years- but I didn't know this was going to happen until it did). The ONLY reason I went OOS was because my parents are incredibly generous. There is NO way in hell that I would have gone OOS if my parents weren't able to help as much as they did. I probs would have left with school with $0 debt if I went to my IS school. I would have an extra ~$370 per month if I went IS. Over 10 years, that is a lot. That's like, a monthly payment on 2 new cars, or a nice down payment on a house. If your parents can't help you, and you still choose to go OOS, may as well multiply my monthly payment by 7.5 or 10. Now that's like buying a very nice new house or 10 new cars with cash. Or the total cost to raise a child from 0-18 and put them through college. Yeah....oh wait, don't forget the interest. Government wants their share, too. Your 300k loan will be close to doubled once you pay it off, esp if you are taking out loans now because our economy is doing pretty well.

 

[battie]

The figure that we were given in school in 2016 was something like 10-11%. Has it increased since then? 18% seems high to me given the cost of the education and I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that nearly 1 in 5 students somehow have enough money to graduate debt free.

Also wanting to add that 10% seems about right given my experience-that about fits for the number of IS students in my class who get multiple scholarships every year, or have gotten a few huge ones + them working well paying summer jobs and whatnot. It pays to be into swine medicine, that's for sure.

I probs mixed the stats then. I'm probably supposed to be thinking 1/5 is over 200k. My bad. lol.

 

[Trilt]

I went OOS (was able to convert to IS after 1.5 years- but I didn't know this was going to happen until it did). The ONLY reason I went OOS was because my parents are incredibly generous. There is NO way in hell that I would have gone OOS if my parents weren't able to help as much as they did. I probs would have left with school with $0 debt if I went to my IS school. I would have an extra ~$370 per month if I went IS. Over 10 years, that is a lot. That's like, a monthly payment on 2 new cars, or a nice down payment on a house. If your parents can't help you, and you still choose to go OOS, may as well multiply my monthly payment by 7.5 or 10. Now that's like buying a very nice new house or 10 new cars with cash. Or the total cost to raise a child from 0-18 and put them through college. Yeah....oh wait, don't forget the interest. Government wants their share, too. Your 300k loan will be close to doubled once you pay it off, esp if you are taking out loans now because our economy is doing pretty well.

My loan payments on 10yr payoff are almost double my new car payments (on a 4yr payoff). And I went in state with some family help. It's insane how much it all costs.

Go to the cheapest school. Go to the cheapest school. Go. to. your. cheapest. option.

 

[pp9]

Minor point, but it says people who ENROLL after June 2018 would be under the new rules, not anyone who enters repayment after June '18. So c/o 2019ers like yourself shouldn't be affected. Clearly things could change, but when you first take out loans you and the government sign the Master Promissory Note contract that outlines the amounts, terms and repayment options that are available for you. Yes, new legislation could come along, but it would be opening the potential for a huge lawsuit from millions of people to try to remove their options outlined in that contract, which is why most of these proposals focus on future borrowers and not current ones. It's definitely something we need to keep a close eye on moving forward, but in theory, things wouldn't change until the vet med class of 2023 starts from everything I've read.

I interpreted that as enroll in the forgiveness program, so it would affect me since I wouldn't enroll until 2019. I don't think they're referring to enrolling in your degree program, given how this article worded it at least, as well as most of the articles I've read on it. I'm not about to sift through all 500 pages of that bill, lol.

"Neither the proposed changes to Public Service Loan Forgiveness or federal student loan repayment (PAYE/REPAYE) would impact current student loan borrowers enrolled in these programs. Rather, borrowers who enroll in these programs after June 2018 would be the first to be impacted."

Maybe the bill was written to be intentionally vague on that.

 

[battie]

So now I'm looking at stats to avoid learning the esophagus and stomach. They've released the stuff for c/o 2021 and the applicants for 2022.

What the hell does this picture mean?

 

[SkiOtter]

What the hell does this picture mean?

Left side goes with the orange bars and is how much debt people have, right side goes with the blue line and is the percentage of grads that have no debt

 

[missdarjeeling]

I'm more questioning the slow-but-steady increases, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe VIN predicts them to be around 5%/year for some schools. Surely this isn't to account for huge losses like state budget cuts or donors pulling out, beyond normal currency inflation.

There are a lot of smaller factors that quickly add up. It's inflation (remember that this affects everything the school needs to procure) but also cost-of-living adjustments/raises for faculty/staff and, more importantly, increases in benefits. As the cost of health insurance climbs, so does the amount universities chip in for their employees' plans. Employees themselves eat some of the cost in their premiums, but the university contribution adds up quickly. Expect this to get much worse.

And increasing class size isn't exactly a solution. You can only add so many seats before you need to start adding more faculty/staff and facilities to accommodate the extra people.

 

[JaynaAli]

I interpreted that as enroll in the forgiveness program, so it would affect me since I wouldn't enroll until 2019. I don't think they're referring to enrolling in your degree program, given how this article worded it at least, as well as most of the articles I've read on it. I'm not about to sift through all 500 pages of that bill, lol.

"Neither the proposed changes to Public Service Loan Forgiveness or federal student loan repayment (PAYE/REPAYE) would impact current student loan borrowers enrolled in these programs. Rather, borrowers who enroll in these programs after June 2018 would be the first to be impacted."

Maybe the bill was written to be intentionally vague on that.

Well, all I'm saying is to read your MPN you signed, because everything I've read on VIN and from some other sources say it would be new borrowers only so I think you're interpreting it incorrectly. Like this article: https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/student-loan-ranger/articles/2017-12-13/potential-effects-of-prosper-act-on-student-loans.
A couple quotes from it:

Policymakers and others have circulated this idea for years as a way to simplify the loan process. The bill proposes eliminating Stafford and PLUS loans for first-time borrowers as of July 1, 2019, and replacing these options with a new Federal ONE Loan.

The ONE Loan, despite its name, would have options for undergraduate and graduate students and parents and would have different borrowing limits for each type of borrower. Dependent undergraduates could borrow up to $39,000 in federal student loans throughout their college career, while independent undergraduates would be able to borrow up to the $60,250 lifetime cap
Graduate students would be limited to taking out $28,500 per year and $150,000 total, and parents could only borrow $12,500 per year and a total of $56,250 per child.

Let's say you started borrowing for college prior to 2019. You could still receive a direct loan all the way through 2024, then enter public service, repay your loan for 10 years and still be eligible for forgiveness for the balance in 2034. If, however, you begin borrowing for college in 2019 or later, you would only be eligible for ONE loans and ineligible for PSLF.

 

[Vannandy]

Cheapest school period. Like everyone says its 4 years vs. the 20-30 years of repayment. Some people don't have the luxury of picking different schools so that's a different story.

If you're rich and can pay out of pocket without any loans that's cool too 🙂 There are a decent amount of people who do... that's why the "average" student debt numbers are on the low end.

 

[dyachei]

Thank you so much. It seems obvious now that you've said it but I bet I wouldn't have figured that out for a very long time. Do you think that planning for forgiveness could justify the cost of a more expensive school?

It entirely depends on what you make. And you still have taxes on any forgiven amount. Which might not exist in 5-10 years, especially with how things are looking politically right now.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Thank you so much. It seems obvious now that you've said it but I bet I wouldn't have figured that out for a very long time. Do you think that planning for forgiveness could justify the cost of a more expensive school?

Dude...you're totally missing the point.

Loan forgiveness/income driven payments are there as a tool to make it so that you won't necessarily be lacking cash flow to live on (at least during the 20-25yrs you're in repayment), but that doesn't mean borrowing more isn't going to negative effects.

Even with loan forgiveness using PAYE which would yield the least amount of payment, how much you will be paying over 20 years including the tax at the end for a $150k loan is going to be ~$230,000, whereas a $250k loan is going to be $~320,000 assuming a starting salary of $80k. Let's not kid ourselves. Coming up with $230k over 20 years is a heck of a lot easier than coming up with $320k over 20 years. I mean yeah, the forgiven amount of $480k for the $250k loan might make it seem like a "much better deal" than the forgiven amount of *merely* $200k on the $150k loan. BUT IT DOESNT CHANGE THE FACT THAT IT WILL STILL COST YOU $90k MORE TO GO TO THAT MORE EXPENSIVE SCHOOL!!!

If that's worth it for you, then more power to ya.

 

[PrincessButterCup]

I was in the teaching hospital today and it made me a little sad to not be pursuing vet school anymore. Then I glance at threads like this and I feel a whole lot better. 😉

I still love vet med and I still want to be a pathologist above all other careers, but it's just not worth it right now. Maybe I'll win big on a scratch ticket some day (ha!) and reapply. As disappointed as I am about not being accepted, I'm really thankful that I didn't have to take out those loans. It's bitter sweet.

 

[hygebeorht]

I was in the teaching hospital today and it made me a little sad to not be pursuing vet school anymore. Then I glance at threads like this and I feel a whole lot better. 😉

I still love vet med and I still want to be a pathologist above all other careers, but it's just not worth it right now. Maybe I'll win big on a scratch ticket some day (ha!) and reapply. As disappointed as I am about not being accepted, I'm really thankful that I didn't have to take out those loans. It's bitter sweet.

I'd seriously consider moving to a state with a good, affordable school with a great path program. NC State comes to mind (I'm biased). The odds of admission as an in-state applicant are astronomically better than as an OOS applicant. You'll get where you're going...I didn't get in on my first application, either.

 

[VFStudentDebt]

Do you think that planning for forgiveness could justify the cost of a more expensive school?

No, but income-driven repayment and loan forgiveness makes it possible to manage the amount of debt you can incur by attending a more expensive school...to a point. The more you borrow, the more you have to manage, and the more likely you'll end up in loan forgiveness. When your student loan balance is forgiven, it is treated as taxable income the year it is forgiven. That means you have to have enough on hand to cover the tax due on forgiven amounts. The more that is forgiven, the harder it becomes to save enough to meet that tax liability.

Under the current student loan repayment plan structure and range of veterinary incomes, it becomes very difficult to save enough to cover the tax due on forgiven amounts. This is particularly true when we approach the $300k+ range for individual borrowers and single income households. It's not impossible, but it is more difficult -- which is why I suggest to attend the least expensive school possible and borrow as little as possible. Those recommendations come from the ranges of student debt and incomes we run simulations on every day for recent graduate veterinarians and how much they need to save in order to plan for forgiveness.

correct me if I'm wrong but I believe VIN predicts them to be around 5%/year for some schools. Surely this isn't to account for huge losses like state budget cuts or donors pulling out, beyond normal currency inflation.

The current VIN Foundation Cost of Education Map takes into account the last 4 years of tuition increases to come up with an average for tuition increases from first year to first year per school. So each school listed on the map will have a different projection for the anticipated tuition increases.

For all of the reasons that have been mentioned in this thread, that's why it's so important for veterinary applicants to be really tuned into what is going on in the states where they're considering attending vet school so you can formulate some expectations on your total veterinary education costs.

18 seems really high, where's the study?

That formal study hasn't been published yet, but 17% is the number for the 2017 graduating class. I'm not able to post links in this forum yet, but search for a JAVMA News article titled "Divided by debt", published January 01, 2018. The number is listed in that article.

17% is higher than usual and it's too early to tell if it's a trend, but it does show that for at least the 2017 graduating class, we see more folks who were able to graduate with zero debt. But as Dr. Dicks also states in that article, we're seeing more folks graduating with debt at the higher end of the spectrum as well.

 

[battie]

I'm not able to post links in this forum yet, but search for a JAVMA News article titled "Divided by debt", published January 01, 2018. The number is listed in that article.

That's it! That's where I read it for sure.

 

[VFStudentDebt]

I interpreted that as enroll in the forgiveness program, so it would affect me since I wouldn't enroll until 2019. I don't think they're referring to enrolling in your degree program, given how this article worded it at least, as well as most of the articles I've read on it. I'm not about to sift through all 500 pages of that bill, lol.

I have read most of it -- exhilarating to say the least 🙂. In regards to the Prosper Act, the text of the bill states: "NEW BORROWERS.—No loan may be made under this part to a new borrower for which the first disbursement is after June 30, 2019."

That means folks who are just starting to borrow after July 1, 2019 (if this passes) would not be allowed to borrow Direct loans -- the loans that come with IBR, PAYE, REPAYE and PSLF. If you had already started borrowing for your veterinary degree before July, 1 2019, you will still be allowed to borrower Direct loans to complete that program until 2024 and still be allowed to utilize all of the repayment options that come with Direct loans reflected in your master promissory note.

This whole discussion is currently theoretical and would only apply IF the House passes this Propser Act, the Senate passes some similar version of it AND the president signs it. So that means we've got quite a bit before anything actually changes 🙂. But we will be following it closely...

So for anyone who has Direct loans (including those of you who have just started veterinary school), nothing is likely to change for your borrowing and repayment options.

 

[ol_spicey]

No, but income-driven repayment and loan forgiveness makes it possible to manage the amount of debt you can incur by attending a more expensive school...to a point. The more you borrow, the more you have to manage, and the more likely you'll end up in loan forgiveness. When your student loan balance is forgiven, it is treated as taxable income the year it is forgiven. That means you have to have enough on hand to cover the tax due on forgiven amounts. The more that is forgiven, the harder it becomes to save enough to meet that tax liability.

Under the current student loan repayment plan structure and range of veterinary incomes, it becomes very difficult to save enough to cover the tax due on forgiven amounts. This is particularly true when we approach the $300k+ range for individual borrowers and single income households. It's not impossible, but it is more difficult -- which is why I suggest to attend the least expensive school possible and borrow as little as possible. Those recommendations come from the ranges of student debt and incomes we run simulations on every day for recent graduate veterinarians and how much they need to save in order to plan for forgiveness.

Thank you for a helpful response.

 

[ChoopLoops]

I have read most of it -- exhilarating to say the least 🙂. In regards to the Prosper Act, the text of the bill states: "NEW BORROWERS.—No loan may be made under this part to a new borrower for which the first disbursement is after June 30, 2019."

That means folks who are just starting to borrow after July 1, 2019 (if this passes) would not be allowed to borrow Direct loans -- the loans that come with IBR, PAYE, REPAYE and PSLF. If you had already started borrowing for your veterinary degree before July, 1 2019, you will still be allowed to borrower Direct loans to complete that program until 2024 and still be allowed to utilize all of the repayment options that come with Direct loans reflected in your master promissory note.

This whole discussion is currently theoretical and would only apply IF the House passes this Propser Act, the Senate passes some similar version of it AND the president signs it. So that means we've got quite a bit before anything actually changes 🙂. But we will be following it closely...

So for anyone who has Direct loans (including those of you who have just started veterinary school), nothing is likely to change for your borrowing and repayment options.

Ok so if this passes, it still wouldn't affect c/o 2022 because we'd be starting our borrowing this summer/fall 2018, right?

 

[VFStudentDebt]

Ok so if this passes, it still wouldn't affect c/o 2022 because we'd be starting our borrowing this summer/fall 2018, right?

That's correct. As long as you borrowed for your first year (starting this Fall 2018), then you would not be a "new borrower" under the proposed Prosper Act. However, there's a LONG way to go before that thing passes, if it passes at all...

If you're in school now or even applying for the c/o 2022, worry more about finding the least expensive school possible and borrowing as little as possible 🙂

 

[KCgophervet]

Same. 10% still seems high, but when I sit down and think about all of the scholarships a few of my classmates get every year, plus the very well paying internships those same people have gotten, it does come pretty close to 10%. If you're IS, get a $10,000+ scholarship every year, make several thousands every summer/winter, and so on, you can come pretty darn close to pay your costs entirely, especially if you came into school with money saved for the costs. The other 1-2% would be the small handful of classmates that have shared with me that their parents are paying their tuition and living costs.

With that being said, 90% graduate with debt, and a good chunk of that 90% would probably say they are being crushed by their debt.

My IS cost $33K+ just in tuition each year so this bolded bit makes me sad for me and all my fellow Minnesotans 🙁

Edit to say, that was when I was in school. Probably even higher these days