Anyone Considering a Lifelong Career in the Military?

[SouthernMD90]

Hi, I am currently a pre-med wanting to join the Navy as a military doctor. I have been lurking around reading the forums for couple of weeks now and today I decide to sign up and ask a few questions. I know I am a pre-med but I think posting in this forum would get me some more relevant information. After reading the forum it seems to me that most people are not considering joining the military as their lifelong career and would like to return to the civilian world after their commitments are done. I wonder how many posters here would want to remain in the military and pursue a lifelong military medicine career? I know military lifestyle is not for everyone and it is perfectly fine if you don't like it. I am planning on staying in the Navy for the rest of my life because I always want to be in the military to serve my great country and since my wife is a Navy brat, so I know what life in the Navy would be like and I am absolutely fine with it. Thank y'all for your responses.

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[bulldogmed]

Hi, I am currently a pre-med wanting to join the Navy as a military doctor. I have been lurking around reading the forums for couple of weeks now and today I decide to sign up and ask a few questions. I know I am a pre-med but I think posting in this forum would get me some more relevant information. After reading the forum it seems to me that most people are not considering joining the military as their lifelong career and would like to return to the civilian world after their commitments are done. I wonder how many posters here would want to remain in the military and pursue a lifelong military medicine career? I know military lifestyle is not for everyone and it is perfectly fine if you don't like it. I am planning on staying in the Navy for the rest of my life because I always want to be in the military to serve my great country and since my wife is a Navy brat, so I know what life in the Navy would be like and I am absolutely fine with it. Thank y'all for your responses.

Before more experienced military doctors jump on you, let me say that as a pre-med, you have no idea where you'll end up. Most people change their mind at least once about what specialty they go into during medical school. You're thinking of making a decision about the next 10 years of your future, which is what the HPSP commitment effectively is (sometimes more so). Most on this forum would agree that a far better plan for those that want to serve (include myself in that group) should sign up with FAP instead of HPSP. That way, as you go through med school and you become more mature and focused in what you want to do in life, you have the most options available.

 

[pgg]

since my wife is a Navy brat, so I know what life in the Navy would be like

What on earth makes you think that you could possibly have any idea what life in the Navy is like (as a physician no less!) because one of your wife's parents served in the Navy (the line?) a couple decades ago? Unrealistic expectations based on hopeful ideals are where disgruntled, unhappy military physicians come from.


Welcome to the forum. I applaud your desire and willingness to serve.

In my experience, the great majority of physicians who choose to stay in for a career, myself included, had longer educational commitments. By the time they were eligible to get out, the value of the retirement package was too much to walk away from just a few years away from the 20-year mark. Ultimately, however young, idealistic, Democrat-voting, wide-eyed, sacrifice-ready, deployment-excited, nation-building-believing, and altruistic people start, after a 10-year slog through medical school, internship, GMO tour, and residency ... just about everybody sits down in front of Excel and does the math.

Most who entered via HPSP do not stay. For the ones who come in via USUHS, ROTC+HPSP/USUHS, or especially a service academy + HPSP/USUHS ... by the time their payback is done some of those people are 5-8 years away from 20, and in the case of USUHS there's the med student kicker thrown into retirement pay calculations. The all-or-nothing retirement system is a lot of money to walk way from 2/3 of the way to 20.

There is a smaller group of physicians who choose to stay in because they've decided that clinical medicine isn't their thing after all, and the military has many opportunities to go off on an executive medicine track.

 

[Perrotfish]

Hi, I am currently a pre-med wanting to join the Navy as a military doctor. I have been lurking around reading the forums for couple of weeks now and today I decide to sign up and ask a few questions. I know I am a pre-med but I think posting in this forum would get me some more relevant information. After reading the forum it seems to me that most people are not considering joining the military as their lifelong career and would like to return to the civilian world after their commitments are done. I wonder how many posters here would want to remain in the military and pursue a lifelong military medicine career? I know military lifestyle is not for everyone and it is perfectly fine if you don't like it. I am planning on staying in the Navy for the rest of my life because I always want to be in the military to serve my great country and since my wife is a Navy brat, so I know what life in the Navy would be like and I am absolutely fine with it. Thank y'all for your responses.

Yes, some of us are considering it. I have some friends who have gone beyond considering and signed up for another 4 years. It does happen, particularly in professions like mine (Pediatrics) that the civilian world does not treat very well. I will admit that professions that the civilian world treats worshipfully (surgical subspecialist) seem more likely to run for the exits. You should be aware that if you entered planning on a career and ended up getting out at the first opportunity, you wouldn't be very unique. I would say at least half of my ODS (basic training) class of physicians thought they were going to love the Navy and stay for a career. Way, way less than half are planning to stay now that they are several years in.

The main advice you'll get is to keep your options open. There is a good chance you have a very inaccurate opinion of the what the military is like and what it is able to accomplish. On the off chance you really understand both military life and the effects of the military's various missions, there is almost a 100% chance that you and/or the military will change dramatically between now and the end of your first four year tour. The various attendings here can tell you about how completely the landscape of the military changed during just the last few years.

How far along are you in college? If you're a freshman, don't take ROTC, go to pre allo, and come back here when you're about ready to apply. If you are close to applying, read through the threads here. Make sure you understand how being in the military affects your ability to train in the location you want, how it affects your pay, and how it can affect your family. If you understand that and want to join, then join in whatever way leaves you with the least commitment. If your only option is an expensive school, join via HPSP. If your option is a cheap school, HPSP might still be the best option but strongly consider HSCP, FAP, or just joining after you're completely done with medical school and residency. Don't take an ROTC contract (if you haven't already). Don't go to USUHS if you have any other options. Don't take FAP after HPSP. Make it a goal to only have a 4 year commitment at the end of your training. If you finish those 4 years and feel the same way you did when you started great, you sign up again. If not, you're not much worse off than anyone else who enlisted. However don't indenture yourself to an employer for life before you've ever been employed by them.

BTW, you know all about military life because of your wife's parent? Really? As connections to the military go, that's up there with watching a season of MASH

 

[SouthernMD90]

Thank y'all for responding. I understand that as a pre-med I know very little about what it actually means to be in the military medicine and the life in military as a physician in general. My knowledge of Navy life comes mainly from my wife's family, a family friend who just recently retired from the Navy and his children who are currently serving in the Navy. They are all line officers, so their experiences many not be the same as being a physician in the Navy. Other informations I have gathered are all from this forum. I am a junior right now and I am planning to join via HPSP or HSCP.

 

[Perrotfish]

Thank y'all for responding. I understand that as a pre-med I know very little about what it actually means to be in the military medicine and the life in military as a physician in general. My knowledge of Navy life comes mainly from my wife's family, a family friend who just recently retired from the Navy and his children who are currently serving in the Navy. They are all line officers, so their experiences many not be the same as being a physician in the Navy. Other informations I have gathered are all from this forum. I am a junior right now and I am planning to join via HPSP or HSCP.

Before you sign make sure you also understand the terms GMO, military match, and 'in zone', and what they imply for your career. Make sure you understand exactly how many years you'll owe for HPSP and how residency affects that obligation. Feel free to ask any questions you may have. Again, good luck.

 

[HighPriest]

In addition to the above, spend time reading the fine details on this forum. There are a lot of things that didn't seem like a big deal before I was wearing a uniform that ended up being a big deal to me after residency. (such as control over location, skill atrophy, intrinsic bias in patient population, non-operational spots, all the stuff we talk about all the time) There isn't a great way to know if these things will bother you personally or not, unfortunately. But you'll be less upset about them if you understand from the get-go that they're a possibility. While I am not a proponent of military medicine, I can't agree more with what has been said above: keep your options open. That includes the option of a career in the military or an option to not choose the military path at all. Some people love their military careers (for some reason ) Make good, informed decisions on your own schedule, not on someone else's. If you come down on a deadline for a decision that will effect the next two decades of your life and you feel pressured to make a decision, keep in mind that your decision is being influenced by the immediate situation rather than the desired outcome. Realize that there are almost always other options - until you sign on the dotted line - at which point you're putting your life solely into the hands of someone else. Sometimes that's a great thing, sometimes it is not, and it is a gamble.

 

[1sorrydoc]

Hi, I am currently a pre-med wanting to join the Navy as a military doctor. I have been lurking around reading the forums for couple of weeks now and today I decide to sign up and ask a few questions. I know I am a pre-med but I think posting in this forum would get me some more relevant information. After reading the forum it seems to me that most people are not considering joining the military as their lifelong career and would like to return to the civilian world after their commitments are done. I wonder how many posters here would want to remain in the military and pursue a lifelong military medicine career? I know military lifestyle is not for everyone and it is perfectly fine if you don't like it. I am planning on staying in the Navy for the rest of my life because I always want to be in the military to serve my great country and since my wife is a Navy brat, so I know what life in the Navy would be like and I am absolutely fine with it. Thank y'all for your responses.

Hello, you are wise for asking questions about what it might be like. I was researching disabilty insurance and came upon this thread. All i can give you is my experience with the Navy which was horrible. In short, raising my right hand ruined my life. My story would take pages to tell and you would not believe half of it. I was baited in the Navy in the late 1990s with the lure of loan repayment. Once I got on active duty the Navy pulled the program for my specialty and I was left trying to pay $140,000 on a 45K salary. I felt like I was kicked in the stomach. I worked long hours and had to cover some slacker that decided that now she was on active duty it was a good time to get pregnant and gto on bed rest, twice. I covered her clinic for a year and a half and had to go to pawn shops on several occassioans to get gas money. My comand said it was only 96 miles round trip so I didnt rate gas money. At the end of my tour I got sub par fitrep becasuse my OIC siad nobody at the main hospital knew who I was and therefore thought I wasnt doing anything.
I was getting out and then 9/11 happened and I wanted to stay in toi do my part. I figured if I did my 20 years my family would do okay down the road. Time went on and I went overseas which was one of the few bright spots. I was promoted to LCDR and finally started to make a salary that looked like I spent 9 years in college. Then I got hurt.
I can not express the level of treachery and abandonment that I dealt with over the next 5 years. I was facing a very scary future and my leaders could not care less. I dont want to go too far into specifics but My right arm beame paralyzed and my entire nervous system started to malfunction. It looked like a cross between ALS and MS. It was incredible. My specialty leader advised my to not tell anyone and just show up at my gaining command unable to use my right arm!!! I knew this was not right and told them anyway. I moved to my next command with their assurances that they were there for me. My arm regained function but it was obvious there was something wrong with my CNS and multiple objective test were showing it. I should not have been seeing patients. They just put me on a plan of supervision and figured that would afford them plausible denial if I killed anyone. I began to get upset when they started to just ignore laws and Navy instructions. When things began to get tense after a year they decide to call me slacker, threaten me with Admin Separation and then finally hand picked my doctor so they could prevent me from getting a medical board. It took an IG complaint to get a medical board and get a small medical retirement. This saga was then followed up with the VA losing my claim and taking almost two years to get a rating. It turns out that my spinal cord was damaged from fall I had sustained in the course of duty.
So hear I sit with muscular atrophy in both arms now and unable to practice my specialty. I had to file bankruptcy whne my salary was cut to 30% and I lost my home. I was denied yesterday for a $500 secured credit card and my FICO is 542. I did everything that you were supposed to do to be successful in life and this still happened. My story is extreme and many people do very well. You just need to understand that things can go horribly wrong and you should not count on anyone being there for you. You can spend years hooking everyone up thinking there is some invisible karma account keeping track of your good deeds. Well, thre aint. This VA scandal is showing a glimpse of what happens to service members when the equation shifts. Know this, THERE IS NO I IN NAVY, THERE IS NO I IN TEAM, IF YOU GET HURT THERE WONT BE ANY U EITHER. Obvioulsly no troll would write a reply this long. I hope I havent caused you mental conflict but you need to make an informed decision. I still have ten fingers and toes so I will start with that and try to work back to a happy life. Have a fine Navy Day

 

[BouncingBack]

lol. No one feels pity. Your fault for signing up. DEAL WITH IT! (that is what they tell yall all the time)

I've seen some family med docs and PA's get harangued by other Captains for not coming out to 6 AM PT's recently. This female doc and nurse even cried, lol. No one felt sorry for them - another PA just commented, "DEAL WITH IT. this is the army not a girl scout "lol

Hello, you are wise for asking questions about what it might be like. I was researching disabilty insurance and came upon this thread. All i can give you is my experience with the Navy which was horrible. In short, raising my right hand ruined my life. My story would take pages to tell and you would not believe half of it. I was baited in the Navy in the late 1990s with the lure of loan repayment. Once I got on active duty the Navy pulled the program for my specialty and I was left trying to pay $140,000 on a 45K salary. I felt like I was kicked in the stomach. I worked long hours and had to cover some slacker that decided that now she was on active duty it was a good time to get pregnant and gto on bed rest, twice. I covered her clinic for a year and a half and had to go to pawn shops on several occassioans to get gas money. My comand said it was only 96 miles round trip so I didnt rate gas money. At the end of my tour I got sub par fitrep becasuse my OIC siad nobody at the main hospital knew who I was and therefore thought I wasnt doing anything.
I was getting out and then 9/11 happened and I wanted to stay in toi do my part. I figured if I did my 20 years my family would do okay down the road. Time went on and I went overseas which was one of the few bright spots. I was promoted to LCDR and finally started to make a salary that looked like I spent 9 years in college. Then I got hurt.
I can not express the level of treachery and abandonment that I dealt with over the next 5 years. I was facing a very scary future and my leaders could not care less. I dont want to go too far into specifics but My right arm beame paralyzed and my entire nervous system started to malfunction. It looked like a cross between ALS and MS. It was incredible. My specialty leader advised my to not tell anyone and just show up at my gaining command unable to use my right arm!!! I knew this was not right and told them anyway. I moved to my next command with their assurances that they were there for me. My arm regained function but it was obvious there was something wrong with my CNS and multiple objective test were showing it. I should not have been seeing patients. They just put me on a plan of supervision and figured that would afford them plausible denial if I killed anyone. I began to get upset when they started to just ignore laws and Navy instructions. When things began to get tense after a year they decide to call me slacker, threaten me with Admin Separation and then finally hand picked my doctor so they could prevent me from getting a medical board. It took an IG complaint to get a medical board and get a small medical retirement. This saga was then followed up with the VA losing my claim and taking almost two years to get a rating. It turns out that my spinal cord was damaged from fall I had sustained in the course of duty.
So hear I sit with muscular atrophy in both arms now and unable to practice my specialty. I had to file bankruptcy whne my salary was cut to 30% and I lost my home. I was denied yesterday for a $500 secured credit card and my FICO is 542. I did everything that you were supposed to do to be successful in life and this still happened. My story is extreme and many people do very well. You just need to understand that things can go horribly wrong and you should not count on anyone being there for you. You can spend years hooking everyone up thinking there is some invisible karma account keeping track of your good deeds. Well, thre aint. This VA scandal is showing a glimpse of what happens to service members when the equation shifts. Know this, THERE IS NO I IN NAVY, THERE IS NO I IN TEAM, IF YOU GET HURT THERE WONT BE ANY U EITHER. Obvioulsly no troll would write a reply this long. I hope I havent caused you mental conflict but you need to make an informed decision. I still have ten fingers and toes so I will start with that and try to work back to a happy life. Have a fine Navy Day

 

[colbgw02]

Hello, you are wise for asking questions about what it might be like. I was researching disabilty insurance and came upon this thread. All i can give you is my experience with the Navy which was horrible. In short, raising my right hand ruined my life. My story would take pages to tell and you would not believe half of it. I was baited in the Navy in the late 1990s with the lure of loan repayment. Once I got on active duty the Navy pulled the program for my specialty and I was left trying to pay $140,000 on a 45K salary. I felt like I was kicked in the stomach. I worked long hours and had to cover some slacker that decided that now she was on active duty it was a good time to get pregnant and gto on bed rest, twice. I covered her clinic for a year and a half and had to go to pawn shops on several occassioans to get gas money. My comand said it was only 96 miles round trip so I didnt rate gas money. At the end of my tour I got sub par fitrep becasuse my OIC siad nobody at the main hospital knew who I was and therefore thought I wasnt doing anything.
I was getting out and then 9/11 happened and I wanted to stay in toi do my part. I figured if I did my 20 years my family would do okay down the road. Time went on and I went overseas which was one of the few bright spots. I was promoted to LCDR and finally started to make a salary that looked like I spent 9 years in college. Then I got hurt.
I can not express the level of treachery and abandonment that I dealt with over the next 5 years. I was facing a very scary future and my leaders could not care less. I dont want to go too far into specifics but My right arm beame paralyzed and my entire nervous system started to malfunction. It looked like a cross between ALS and MS. It was incredible. My specialty leader advised my to not tell anyone and just show up at my gaining command unable to use my right arm!!! I knew this was not right and told them anyway. I moved to my next command with their assurances that they were there for me. My arm regained function but it was obvious there was something wrong with my CNS and multiple objective test were showing it. I should not have been seeing patients. They just put me on a plan of supervision and figured that would afford them plausible denial if I killed anyone. I began to get upset when they started to just ignore laws and Navy instructions. When things began to get tense after a year they decide to call me slacker, threaten me with Admin Separation and then finally hand picked my doctor so they could prevent me from getting a medical board. It took an IG complaint to get a medical board and get a small medical retirement. This saga was then followed up with the VA losing my claim and taking almost two years to get a rating. It turns out that my spinal cord was damaged from fall I had sustained in the course of duty.
So hear I sit with muscular atrophy in both arms now and unable to practice my specialty. I had to file bankruptcy whne my salary was cut to 30% and I lost my home. I was denied yesterday for a $500 secured credit card and my FICO is 542. I did everything that you were supposed to do to be successful in life and this still happened. My story is extreme and many people do very well. You just need to understand that things can go horribly wrong and you should not count on anyone being there for you. You can spend years hooking everyone up thinking there is some invisible karma account keeping track of your good deeds. Well, thre aint. This VA scandal is showing a glimpse of what happens to service members when the equation shifts. Know this, THERE IS NO I IN NAVY, THERE IS NO I IN TEAM, IF YOU GET HURT THERE WONT BE ANY U EITHER. Obvioulsly no troll would write a reply this long. I hope I havent caused you mental conflict but you need to make an informed decision. I still have ten fingers and toes so I will start with that and try to work back to a happy life. Have a fine Navy Day

A+. Would read again.

 

[tabascosauce]

ive cried because of PT, but i didnt let anyone see me cry. i just blinked back the tears

 

[MaximusD]

No, not on the active duty side anyway.

But then again, my values and goals are just different from the military's. I would like to settle into a long-term practice and create a stable family environment. PCS q3-4 yrs is not conducive of that goal.. nor is the new 12 on, 6 deployed band system.

Reserve or guard, on the other hand, is something I could get on-board with as an eventuality.

 

[Chonal Atresia]

If you enjoy poor pay, having nurses as your bosses, risk of 2 year non-clinical brigade surgeon tours and having your profession constantly being devalued because it takes funds away from bullets and equipment, then the military is the place for you.

 

[1sorrydoc]

If you enjoy poor pay, having nurses as your bosses, risk of 2 year non-clinical brigade surgeon tours and having your profession constantly being devalued because it takes funds away from bullets and equipment, then the military is the place for you.

All of that would apply to the Navy as well. I had many nurse friends but the ones that went into exec medicine were easily the worst I had ever seen. Alweays had a chip on their shoulder and afraid to make a decision for fear they would make a mistake. The Navy was pushing hard to get as many in command spots as possible and they took some very marginal prospects. I dont think anyone is telling this young doc to not go in but they should be given the complete picture. BTW, southerndoc if you still reading, your recruiter is lying to you. Its just what they do. More accurately they are hyping the positives and downplaying the very real negatives. I think I am older than most on here because I got out in 2010 but things were not always like this. IMHO there was a shift in miltary medicine after 2000. You used to be able to trust your chain to look out for you but then poeple began to get command that were motivated by a CYA mentatlity. I have a hard time thinking of any O5 nurse or HCA that wouldnt open your throat if they thought a little silver eagle would roll out.

 

[IlDestriero]

One of the fundamental flaws of a career in military medicine is how it is structured and operated. Some of this is elaborated on above already.
I think it is difficult to impossible to be the best physician that you can be, particularly as a specialist after a 20+ year career in the military. So, what is more important to you, a military career or professional success?
Not everyone is bound for a "high flying" career in academic medicine, but 10 to 15 years after residency you should be in your prime and this is exactly when the military starts to really undermine your medical career. All those deployments, leadership opportunities, PCSs to remote or foreign bases where your skills atrophy away, etc. That is great for a career line officer, and a slow death to a specialist physician.
Know what you're getting into.
We have all seen it happen during our time in uniform.

 

[Gastrapathy]

One of the big fallacies is that anyone does a lifelong career. Even the career guys are out after 20-24 years with very few exceptions. Back to the bottom of the totem pole in your late 40s.


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[Beargryllz]

One of the big fallacies is that anyone does a lifelong career. Even the career guys are out after 20-24 years with very few exceptions. Back to the bottom of the totem pole in your late 40s.


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I'm pretty sure I'd take the pension and relax at that point. Maybe I could do a shift each week so I don't get bored or out of touch.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Kids.


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[deuist]

I'm pretty sure I'd take the pension and relax at that point. Maybe I could do a shift each week so I don't get bored or out of touch.

If $50,000 a year is enough for you to relax, then more power to you.

 

[pgg]

One of the big fallacies is that anyone does a lifelong career. Even the career guys are out after 20-24 years with very few exceptions. Back to the bottom of the totem pole in your late 40s.

Another area where specialty really matters, and where surgical subs and others that have to build practices and referral networks usually lose the most ground.

In the anesthesia world, I'm watching private group after group get tossed out in the streets on their asses after getting underbid by management companies. Or at best, a couple of senior partners get bought out but everyone else gets nothing. One factor that weighed on the side of staying in was watching an all-MD group abruptly lose their exclusive contract. Bam, a bunch of guys unceremoniously hurled off the totem pole and forced into "PCS" moves to find new jobs.

The ENT totem pole may be 40' tall and set in concrete, but the poles in anesthesia aren't quite so high and they sure seem to fall over a lot. Walking out of the Navy at near ground-level with a pension doesn't seem so bad.