anyone else facing dismissal from med school and appealing it?

[hotchocolate]

I found out recently that I have been asked to choose between dismissal from school or withdrawal and reapplying. I don't want to type out what led to this point for everyone to read, just in case anyone from my school is reading this and can figure out who I am.

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[SoCuteMD]

I'm sorry that I don't have any specific suggestions. I can't really relate to your situation but I have a few friends who have faced what you are dealing with. For obvious reasons I haven't asked them a whole lot about what they are dealing with, but the person I know who appealed successfully did say that when he first went in to appeal he felt like he was too confident and not genuine enough - this did not go over well with the committee. If you have to meet with the committee and talk about your desire to pursue medicine I have a few suggestions.

• Make a list of your reasons for wanting to be a doctor
• Make a list of the mistakes you made during medical school so far that have affected your performance
• Make a list of concrete suggestions to address these weaknesses - show willingness to change what wasn't working for you

Lots of

 

[njbmd]

I found out recently that I have been asked to choose between dismissal from school or withdrawal and reapplying. I don't want to type out what led to this point for everyone to read, just in case anyone from my school is reading this and can figure out who I am. But, because I am supposed to meet with a committee in a few weeks which will be assessing my commitment to and "passion" for medicine, I was wondering if anyone on this forum is in a similar situation and wants to share thoughts by PM on how to deal with these sorts of committees, what to say and what not to say, or just talk in general about what is happening to us. SO this is sort of an open invitation I guess, in case anyone else out there is feeling as alone, helpless, confused and depressed about their situation as I feel about mine right now, to PM me and share their stories, listen to mine, swap advice and thoughts on how best to deal with it, and any strategies on how to make the best impression during an appeal. And, for anyone who is just curious to know more about why I would be dismissed from med school, I will not post it here ( I have no idea if members of my med school administration read this, and they might).

More than a few medical students face dismissal for various reasons. Usually, academics are the main cause but there can be behavioral or psychological too. The reasons that you find yourself here actually do not matter very much (except to you) in terms of making sure that you correct whatever you have to correct in order to convince the administration that you should not be dismissed.

Most medical schools do not dismiss a student (except in the case of felony conviction) without the action of a committee. If this is the case, you need to find out what kind of documents you need to present to this committee and make sure that you get them done. You also need to make an appointment with your academic adviser/counselor and make sure that this person will be an advocate for you. As soon as you started having difficulty, you should have made this person aware. If not, now is the time to get moving.

You may need to outline the progress that you have make in overcoming you problems or what steps you will take to prevent finding yourself in this situation again. You also need to carefully evaluate your options (with the help of your academic adviser) and pick the one that makes the most sense for you in terms of keeping your medical career intact.

I would suggest that you consult an attorney to make sure that your legal rights are not violated. This is the only person, besides your academic adviser, that you should be sharing the details of your story with. Resist the urge to PM anyone on a relatively public message board about your private matters.

In your defense, most medical schools will attempt to keep students who have had any success during their previous medical work. Even if you failed a couple of subjects, you had to pass one or two. If you have a medical/behavioral problem, then you are going to need to convince your school that your problem has been corrected or under control so that you can finish.

Again, get some type of advice and legal counsel. I am sure that there are attorneys in your locale that have some experience in these type of matters. Again, don't PM anyone with details of your problems. Consult a professional counselor if you need to "just talk" with another person but don't use a message board for this purpose. Get the best professional advice that you can find and good luck with the process.

 

[Taurus]

I would suggest that you consult an attorney to make sure that your legal rights are not violated.

This is very important. Had a friend go through these proceedings, only to discover that the school screwed up big time. The school barely dodged the "L" word. Remember that the deans, counselors, etc are working to protect the interests of the school, not yours.

Be careful of what you say. What you say will become part of the record if it goes that far. That's why you need to proceed very cautiously. Be very careful who you to speak with and what you say.

Fight this tooth and nail. Even if you "voluntarily" withdrew, your only chance of admission to medical school again is in the Caribbean schools.

 

[cfdavid]

OP, you've just received some stellar advice here the last few posts.

 

[hotchocolate]

thanks everyone for all the advice.

SoCuteMD-you mentioned that you had a few friends go through this process but just one managed to appeal successfully. Does that mean that most of them didnt and were dismissed?

NJBMD-thanks for all the advice. I will really think about all of it, and I'm not going to PM anyone my situation like you advised.

Taurus-I have PMed you a question, hope you don't mind.

I have never contacted an attorney before-any thoughts as to what type/category of lawyer would be best for me to contact regarding a school situation? Also, would it be unwise to try to get advice from law students in my school? I have heard that there is a group of them that offers free counsel/advice to students, but I'm not sure if that includes giving advice to students about dealing with administration of another college (like the college of medicine) within the university. I will contact someone about it and see.


I am not sure how to present myself at the meeting that will decide this. I guess I will just have to play it by ear.

Thanks everyone for all your help. I'm grateful for everything you have all said. 🙂

 

[DickyV]

Get yourself a real attorney, not a law student. Yes, it will cost more money, but think of the money you'll lose if you don't become an MD.

The biggest reason - attorney-client privilege. You want to know that whatever you tell him/her will not be told to anyone else.

As to what type of attorney, talk to a "general" lawyer in your town. If he/she is not experienced, they may know someone who is. Frankly, it's highly unlikely that any lawyer you hire will be experienced with the procedures at your school - you're paying for someone who knows how to read through the rulebook for you.

 

[DickyV]

Follow-up:

From this point forward, document EVERYTHING.

Log every phone call or in-person conversation you have with a dean or member of the admin. Save (or even print out) every e-mail you send or receive regarding the situation. Make photocopies of everything you send in hardcopy, and consider certified mail (proof of delivery) for really important stuff.

Also, go back and see if you can get proof that you didn't do those things that you claim you didn't do but your school says you did.

 

[Law2Doc]

t Also, would it be unwise to try to get advice from law students in my school? I have heard that there is a group of them that offers free counsel/advice to students, but I'm not sure if that includes giving advice to students about dealing with administration of another college (like the college of medicine) within the university. I will contact someone about it and see.

Yes, it would be extremely unwise. Law school does not cover academic administrative law in any useful detail, and most of what a lawyer can bring to the table in terms of value is learned during his/her years of practice of law, not in school. If this is important to you, (and it should be -- it is your entire career) you want somebody who has been down this road before. Free law student advice is fine for less important things -- landlord disputes, small claims, but I certainly wouldn't put my career in such unseasoned hands.

 

[silas2642]

thanks everyone for all the advice.

SoCuteMD-you mentioned that you had a few friends go through this process but just one managed to appeal successfully. Does that mean that most of them didnt and were dismissed?

NJBMD-thanks for all the advice. I will really think about all of it, and I'm not going to PM anyone my situation like you advised.

Taurus-I have PMed you a question, hope you don't mind.

I have never contacted an attorney before-any thoughts as to what type/category of lawyer would be best for me to contact regarding a school situation? Also, would it be unwise to try to get advice from law students in my school? I have heard that there is a group of them that offers free counsel/advice to students, but I'm not sure if that includes giving advice to students about dealing with administration of another college (like the college of medicine) within the university. I will contact someone about it and see.

I think my med school is pretty much the type to "cover their asses" and have documentation for most things, which I could tell from my conversations with a dean, who, when I mentioned something that I don't remember agreeing to do and said that I never agreed to it, claimed immediately, "Yes you did, I have documentation." I do not have documentation of the few things I think they may have done "illegally" so to speak, and I"m not sure that beyond giving me advice, an attorney could do much with what "evidence" I have (which is just my word, basically). However, I am seriously going to try to figure out what type of attorney I should get and get one, because I do not want to risk being dismissed permanently from school. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

I am not sure how to present myself at the meeting that will decide this...Some people say humble, some people say forceful, some people say "show your passion" I am not really sure what is the best way to act at the meeting, I guess I will just have to play it by ear.

Thanks everyone for all your help. I'm grateful for everything you have all said. 🙂

I believe that you need a civil attorney. I would try to speak with one on Monday; as other's have mentioned, it may be expensive, but if you have to re-start medical school, it's going to be way more expensive than the attorney's fees. You've received some really good advice on this forum-- get an attorney and keep your mouth shut until he properly advises you.

 

[hotchocolate]

thanks you guys--I am really truly grateful for all the advice and information you guys have given me.

 

[Taurus]

Get a lawyer, but let no one know that you have legal counsel.

When you meet with the committee, be humble and remorseful and do whatever they say. Being belligerent only pisses them off.

Show your legal hand _only if_ you run out of options, aka, dismissal and no more appeals. Then you have no choice. Realize that if you are dismissed, the chances of you getting into any health professional school again in this country, ie, medical, nursing, etc is not very good. You will have that black mark on your record permanently.

Realize that getting a lawyer to reverse this situation is a very, very long shot. If the school wants to dismiss you, they probably have good reason and evidence to back it up. Getting a lawyer is really only good if he can find that the school messed up in some way that is material. A school may change its mind just because it doesn't want to deal with the headache of litigation, but that's a long shot. Get a copy of all written documentation; you have a right to those. If it goes to court, then your lawyer can subponea emails, testimonials, etc.

A good type of lawyer for this type of case is probably employment lawyer. As a student, I would think that you are under the same protections as an employee. Employees have rights and companies can't just screw them over or they'll get sued.

Regarding getting a good lawyer who will take on such a case, expect to pay $200+/hour. So get all your ducks in a row, ie, documentation, any evidence, etc when you meet with him so you don't waste your money. If he thinks you have a case, you can switch it to a contingency basis where he gets paid only if he wins the case and there is an award.

Honestly, if you have to let your school know that you have a lawyer and that you plan to pursue litigation against them, people there will be so pissed off at you that it may not be worth coming back. If this experience ruins your entire medical education and responsibility can be traced back to the school, then the school could be held liable for earnings for your entire medical career ($10-20 million). This is why the school better know what it's doing or it's in big doo-doo. Don't mess with someone's life or career trivially.

 

[sendwich]

wow, this is pretty intense stuff. i wonder if some schools are more harsh than others, in terms of dismissing/coming down on students?

 

[SoCuteMD]

thanks everyone for all the advice.

SoCuteMD-you mentioned that you had a few friends go through this process but just one managed to appeal successfully. Does that mean that most of them didnt and were dismissed?

Sorry I wasn't clear. I know of 3 people who appealed. One was unsuccessful. The other two were both were granted a return to school on appeal.

 

[rchappidi]

wow, this is pretty intense stuff. i wonder if some schools are more harsh than others, in terms of dismissing/coming down on students?

Exactly what I was thinking.

Just curious, what sort of behavior criminal activity counts as grounds for dismissal. (yeah, a homicide or something serious would obviously count, but does anyone other activity behvaior counts)

And does anyone know how many people actually get dismissed vs. the number of people indited (not sure if indited is the right term, but you know what i mean)

 

[Husky85]

Exactly what I was thinking.

Just curious, what sort of behavior criminal activity counts as grounds for dismissal. (yeah, a homicide or something serious would obviously count, but does anyone other activity behvaior counts)

And does anyone know how many people actually get dismissed vs. the number of people indited (not sure if indited is the right term, but you know what i mean)

I'd assume drug convictions would also be a big one.

 

[hotchocolate]

i am getting in touch with some employment lawyers this week. we'll see how that goes, but i am feeling some of the stress get taken away from me already just to know that someone else will be sorting through my case other than myself. A BIG THANK YOU to EVERYONE who suggested anything, posted on this thread, your advice was invaluable to me.🙂

 

[hotchocolate]

Also, go back and see if you can get proof that you didn't do those things that you claim you didn't do but your school says you did.

Thanks DickyV, I will do this. I think I can fight at least one of the allegations against me that I remember.

 

[ArminTamzarian]

When looking for an attorney, contact your local bar association for help

 

[GBFKicks]

thanks everyone for all the advice.

SoCuteMD-you mentioned that you had a few friends go through this process but just one managed to appeal successfully. Does that mean that most of them didnt and were dismissed?

NJBMD-thanks for all the advice. I will really think about all of it, and I'm not going to PM anyone my situation like you advised.

Taurus-I have PMed you a question, hope you don't mind.

I have never contacted an attorney before-any thoughts as to what type/category of lawyer would be best for me to contact regarding a school situation? Also, would it be unwise to try to get advice from law students in my school? I have heard that there is a group of them that offers free counsel/advice to students, but I'm not sure if that includes giving advice to students about dealing with administration of another college (like the college of medicine) within the university. I will contact someone about it and see.

I think my med school is pretty much the type to "cover their asses" and have documentation for most things, which I could tell from my conversations with a dean, who, when I mentioned something that I don't remember agreeing to do and said that I never agreed to it, claimed immediately, "Yes you did, I have documentation." I do not have documentation of the few things I think they may have done "illegally" so to speak, and I"m not sure that beyond giving me advice, an attorney could do much with what "evidence" I have (which is just my word, basically). However, I am seriously going to try to figure out what type of attorney I should get and get one, because I do not want to risk being dismissed permanently from school. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

I am not sure how to present myself at the meeting that will decide this. I guess I will just have to play it by ear.

Thanks everyone for all your help. I'm grateful for everything you have all said. 🙂

I don't think you can use student groups or even lawyers provided by your school against the school. I used a lawyer that the school provides (not for anything like this--only a dispute with a previous landlord), and one of the things they state and is written all over every form that you sign is that you can't use their services against the school.

Good luck finding a lawyer, though.

 

[Law2Doc]

Get a lawyer, but let no one know that you have legal counsel.

When you meet with the committee, be humble and remorseful and do whatever they say. Being belligerent only pisses them off.

Show your legal hand _only if_ you run out of options, aka, dismissal and no more appeals. Then you have no choice.

This is actually bad advice. Once you have "no more appeals" there is very little a lawyer can do for you. The school only has to give you your "due process" once, and once they do, you have limited right to battle further. So you can really tie a lawyers hands and make it impossible for them to help you if you already have taken this thing through dismissal. The smartest thing is to see a lawyer up front, and see how s/he wants to handle it. But the way administrative law works once you appear or respond to the dean/committee you may be giving up your only opportunity to do so (with or without a lawyer). Everyone should get into the habit of getting legal advice before the *#&$ hits the fan, not after.

 

[DoctorFunk]

Everyone should get into the habit of getting legal advice before the *#&$ hits the fan, not after.

That's just crazy talk. Next thing you know you're going to be telling me that I should change my diet and exercise habits before my first MI.

 

[zeff]

Just curious, what sort of behavior criminal activity counts as grounds for dismissal. (yeah, a homicide or something serious would obviously count, but does anyone other activity behvaior counts)

My Mom works at a medical school and once served on a committee like the OP is describing, which was considering the case of a med student who had started some kind of business on the side giving health advice over the internet and was using the med school's name, seal, etc as part of his enterprise (I think even using their internet server!), basically misrepresenting himself as having the seal of approval of the school--obviously, when the administration found out, they were pretty furious.

OP--this guy was dead meat, from what my Mom says, until he went before the committee and showed genuine remorse, offered to pay restitution, etc.--he changed enough people's minds in that room that he managed to stay. Think long and hard before you go in there about what you want to say, how you want to say it, how to answer any questions that could come up.

Good luck to you

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

Agree with Zeff, if this was a one time big f'up you did, the best thing you can do is throw yourself at their mercy. Without getting into to much detail, there was a cheating "scandal" I know of where the decision (before confronting the cheater) was "Either he admits to everything unprovoked or he's gone". Luckily for the cheater, he admitted to everything as soon as the teacher asked to speak with him and apologized profusely.

However, if this isn't a one time incident the OP is talking about and is more a pattern (hypothetically, repeated arguments with superiors/students, a pattern of academic problems) there's a great chance they're going to claim they gave you a long history of warnings that you didn't heed.

 

[hotchocolate]

This is actually bad advice. Once you have "no more appeals" there is very little a lawyer can do for you. The school only has to give you your "due process" once, and once they do, you have limited right to battle further. So you can really tie a lawyers hands and make it impossible for them to help you if you already have taken this thing through dismissal. The smartest thing is to see a lawyer up front, and see how s/he wants to handle it. But the way administrative law works once you appear or respond to the dean/committee you may be giving up your only opportunity to do so (with or without a lawyer). Everyone should get into the habit of getting legal advice before the *#&$ hits the fan, not after.

Law2Doc-does this mean I should take a lawyer to the appeals meeting? Now that you say this, it sounds like the best thing to do for me too. Even if it pisses people off, I think I have a better shot of winning the appeal with a lawyer than without. Honestly I would find it hard to fake remorse at this point too. I think I have just bruised a couple of oversized egos at my school, and I am actually not remorseful at all, I am just pissed, and scared too. So, it would be extremely hard for me to "beg for mercy" from people when I am just not feeling that way.

 

[Taurus]

Law2Doc-does this mean I should take a lawyer to the appeals meeting?

No, and in fact your committee may specifically forbid lawyers from coming to the meeting.

Your best bet is to throw yourself at the mercy of the committee. Show remorse and don't be combative.

If you bring a lawyer to the meeting or let them know you have one, they will get really defensive and be pissed off at you. Who doesn't get pissed off if you tell them you will sue them?

Keep your lawyer in your backpocket. Keep him apprised of all documentation, details, etc. If he thinks you have a case, he will let you know. Most likely, you don't. If you are dismissed, then that's life and move on. Don't try to bring a frivolous lawsuit because that won't work.

 

[WiscDoc]

Law2Doc-does this mean I should take a lawyer to the appeals meeting? Now that you say this, it sounds like the best thing to do for me too. Even if it pisses people off, I think I have a better shot of winning the appeal with a lawyer than without. Honestly I would find it hard to fake remorse at this point too. I think I have just bruised a couple of oversized egos at my school, and I am actually not remorseful at all, I am just pissed, and scared too. So, it would be extremely hard for me to "beg for mercy" from people when I am just not feeling that way.

I'm just an M1 here (started 1 month ago) and probably dont know much. From your other posts, it seems like you were preparing for step 1 just a couple of months ago...meaning you have not been in your M3 for long...how could you have upset somebody so soon! (I'm saying this just for future caution and so I don't make similar mistakes).

Also, you mentioned this in a previous post, but it seems like you know people from your school (students or administrators) might be reading your posts and might have a clue to who you are....are you sure you want to be saying all this here? (and I am saying this because I really feel for you, I know how much is on the line here, and that it would be devistating to loose it all).

Best of luck,

WiscDoc

 

[hotchocolate]

Do you mean if youve already met with ANY committee, without having any legal counsel beforehand, you're screwed? Or are you only screwed if you've gone through your school's entire "due process" procedure before contacting a lawyer?

Law2Doc-do you think I should basically let my school know before I go in to the appeal that I have a lawyer? And possibly have the lawyer present if that's allowed? Or should I hide from the school the fact that I have legal counsel? Which do you think is the better way to go?

wiscdoc-honestly I don't think I've said enough about the reason for my dismissal for anyone at my school to figure out who I am simply from this thread. But, thanks for warning me anyways.

 

[Law2Doc]

No, and in fact your committee may specifically forbid lawyers from coming to the meeting.

Your best bet is to throw yourself at the mercy of the committee. Show remorse and don't be combative.

If you bring a lawyer to the meeting or let them know you have one, they will get really defensive and be pissed off at you. Who doesn't get pissed off if you tell them you will sue them?

Keep your lawyer in your backpocket. Keep him apprised of all documentation, details, etc. If he thinks you have a case, he will let you know. Most likely, you don't. If you are dismissed, then that's life and move on. Don't try to bring a frivolous lawsuit because that won't work.

Um, you seem a bit confused as to what lawyers can do here, and what kind of damage you can do if you "throw yourself at the mercy of the committee". Once you use up your appeals with the school, you are SOL -- no lawyer can put that genie back into the bottle. It's game over - you get one bite at the apple under most academic procedure rules. So if you "keep your lawyer in your back pocket" and proceed on your own, you wasted your retainer - your lawyer will have nothing s/he can do for you at that point. There is no "case" once you've gone through the school's due process procedure -- that is all the school is legally required to give you; so it is an end of the road.

And no, we aren't talking lawsuits, frivolous or otherwise. That is not the point of the lawyer in this case. This matter will never see the inside of a court, nor should it. You may need someone to represent you effectively to the school, because most 20 year olds in this situation tend not to do so usefully. Or at least s/he advise you how to proceed, knowing the facts and what has already transpired. So ideally you speak with the lawyer before any further appeals process, and see how s/he wants to handle it.

But this is truly one of those times when there is a "too late" for legal help. So talk to someone early, before the process goes any further. As I said before lawyers are not magic, and it is much harder to fix something after the fact than to keep it from getting broke in the first place. This is one of those times where it will be darn near impossible if you wait on it. Hope that's clear.

 

[Taurus]

I agree that it's best to get legal counsel asap and follow it.

I'm no lawyer and Law2Doc obviously is one and has more experience than me. But I would be careful about brandishing a lawyer like a weapon. Medicine is very conservative and depending on the specialty it may feel like everyone knows everyone else. You don't want to be seen as a trouble-maker -- assuming you survive this -- because you may end up doing family medicine in the middle of nowhere Alaska if you're lucky. That's why you're best off appearing cooperative, humble, remorseful, and willing to change. If the committee knows you have a lawyer, then all that goodwill goes out the window and they're thinking of how to protect the school -- not whether you would make a good doctor.

If the school truly did mess up, you still have a case after the school appeals process is over. Then you may have a solid lawsuit. Frankly, the school hates to admit they screwed up and they may find it more convenient to just get rid of you. It's a very political process.

That's what happened to my friend. He had solid evidence that the school messed up in the form of written documentation and eye witnesses. The committee tried to brush it off and still lay the blame on him. Policies have to be conveyed correctly and by the right persons. Established procedures have to be followed. If you have someone who is not authorized tell policy and then in addition provides the wrong information, that institution can be held liable for gross negligence. In the end, the school backed down because they knew they couldn't win the lawsuit.

 

[Law2Doc]

I agree that it's best to get legal counsel asap and follow it.

I'm no lawyer and Law2Doc obviously is one and has more experience than me. But I would be careful about brandishing a lawyer like a weapon. Medicine is very conservative and depending on the specialty it may feel like everyone knows everyone else. You don't want to be seen as a trouble-maker -- assuming you survive this -- because you may end up doing family medicine in the middle of nowhere Alaska if you're lucky. That's why you're best off appearing cooperative, humble, remorseful, and willing to change. If the committee knows you have a lawyer, then all that goodwill goes out the window and they're thinking of how to protect the school -- not whether you would make a good doctor.

If the school truly did mess up, you still have a case after the school appeals process is over. Then you may have a solid lawsuit. Frankly, the school hates to admit they screwed up and they may find it more convenient to just get rid of you. It's a very political process.

That's what happened to my friend. He had solid evidence that the school messed up in the form of written documentation and eye witnesses. The committee tried to brush it off and still lay the blame on him. Policies have to be conveyed correctly and by the right persons. Established procedures have to be followed. If you have someone who is not authorized tell policy and then in addition provides the wrong information, that institution can be held liable for gross negligence. In the end, the school backed down because they knew they couldn't win the lawsuit.

You don't use a lawyer to threaten a lawsuit here. You most likely use a lawyer to act as a go-between, a fascilitator. Once you are at an "appeal" it means you have already begun a downward spiral -- you have already lost once and are at your last gasp of air. That is not the time to throw yourself at the mercy of the school -- they have already made a decision to get to this stage. That is the time when you take the "how can we work this out" without going down this road approach. There may be no way to, but that is what you would generally try. No threats of lawsuits, so scare tactics -- that would just harden their hearts. There is a time and place for this, but you'd have to have a really compelling error to take this tactic here.

The fact that you think of lawyers only as weapons or as threats suggests that you haven't worked with or come across particularly effective lawyers, or you have seen them used too late in the process (where no other avenues are available but brandishing sabres). Most effective lawyering is done in back rooms, offices and on the phone, away from the courtroom or committee room. Forestalling problems is better than confronting them. Early advice is key -- otherwise you have your hands tied.

 

[notdeadyet]

I'm no lawyer and Law2Doc obviously is one and has more experience than me. But I would be careful about brandishing a lawyer like a weapon. Medicine is very conservative and depending on the specialty it may feel like everyone knows everyone else. You don't want to be seen as a trouble-maker -- assuming you survive this -- because you may end up doing family medicine in the middle of nowhere Alaska if you're lucky.

Because medicine is a conservative profession, they'll know all about lawyers. As much as physicians may b!tch about lawyers, they will be the first to use one when needed.

It's pretty hard to give specific advice when the OP is (wisely) vague about his/her situation. I'd recommend against a lawyer if this were a meeting to talk about an academic suspension because he's failing all his classes. But if this is a dismissal proceedings based on legal grounds, going in without representation is very, very foolish.

 

[gro2001]

No, and in fact your committee may specifically forbid lawyers from coming to the meeting.

Your best bet is to throw yourself at the mercy of the committee. Show remorse and don't be combative.

If you bring a lawyer to the meeting or let them know you have one, they will get really defensive and be pissed off at you. Who doesn't get pissed off if you tell them you will sue them?

Keep your lawyer in your backpocket. Keep him apprised of all documentation, details, etc. If he thinks you have a case, he will let you know. Most likely, you don't. If you are dismissed, then that's life and move on. Don't try to bring a frivolous lawsuit because that won't work.

I am no lawyer, but pretty sure its not legal to forbid someone legal counsel. Having a lawyer in the room, even if he doesnt do anything except read the fine print, should be a good indication that you are serious in your intent to stay.

 

[jjp1633]

Having a lawyer in the room, even if he doesnt do anything except read the fine print, should be a good indication that you are serious in your intent to stay.

I second this. If you do reveal that you have in fact hired a lawyer...I would definitely say something like..."I did this because I am serious about staying and finishing my medical education because I DO want to be a doctor, and if I have to get a lawyer to keep me here then so be it." Or..."This lawyer is costing a lot of money, but I don't care because I am willing to do and pay what it takes to make sure I stay and finish at this institution." Even if you can't stand to be there anymore, this is your only shot. There are plenty of non-aggresive ways you can swing it...just make it sincere and noncombative.

I do wish you all the luck in the world!

 

[Sartre79]

"I have a few friends who have faced what you are dealing with. "


1. What kind of things do most people face dismissal for?
2. Do Schools watch students like a hawk?
3. What I've learned from the work world is trust no one....I assume this applies?

 

[stat3113]

I'm just really curious about what kind of thing would bring something like this upon a person. Crimes, drug violations, other big stuff?

What if you get some bad grades in some courses?

Do schools take hard lines about that and try to kick you out? Or are they understanding?

(I would think this would be most of an issue for MS1 who get bad grades b/c they couldn't keep up with the work.)

 

[WiscDoc]

I'm just really curious about what kind of thing would bring something like this upon a person. Crimes, drug violations, other big stuff?

What if you get some bad grades in some courses?

Do schools take hard lines about that and try to kick you out? Or are they understanding?

(I would think this would be most of an issue for MS1 who get bad grades b/c they couldn't keep up with the work.)

Just to add on to these questions....how can you fail a rotation? Word is that at my school you get two grades, one for the shelf exams and one for rotations. Rotation grades are pretty much the same for everyone as long as you show up on time and do what is asked of you. Is there a catch in this description? Meaning, can anyone pass their basic science years and pass the USMLE, and seriously want to get trhough (and even do well) in years 3 and 4, and just not be good enough? Is that common (within the 1-5% of students who don't make it to the end). I always thought that 1-5% is mainly during the first two years, and for those who change their minds for one reason or another. I think Law2Doc gave this percentage, and a clarification would be very appreciated.

 

[smq123]

Just to add on to these questions....how can you fail a rotation? Word is that at my school you get two grades, one for the shelf exams and one for rotations. Rotation grades are pretty much the same for everyone as long as you show up on time and do what is asked of you. Is there a catch in this description? Meaning, can anyone pass their basic science years and pass the USMLE, and seriously want to get trhough (and even do well) in years 3 and 4, and just not be good enough?

* You must take shelf exams. You can fail those and therefore have to repeat a rotation.

* There is no catch in the description that I bolded. The reason why people fail rotations (outside of failing the shelf exam) relates to "professionalism" issues. Not showing up for call, not showing up for mandatory grand rounds, lying about why you skipped out on morning rounds, etc. Getting into stubborn and angry "discussions" with a resident or attending will also cause problems. As long as you treat 3rd year like a job (more or less), and treat your attendings and residents like your boss (more or less) there shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Ubadub]

SO this is sort of an open invitation I guess, in case anyone else out there is feeling as alone, helpless, confused and depressed about their situation as I feel about mine right now, to PM me and share their stories, listen to mine, swap advice and thoughts on how best to deal with it, and any strategies on how to make the best impression during an appeal. And, for anyone who is just curious to know more about why I would be dismissed from med school, I will not post it here ( I have no idea if members of my med school administration read this, and they might).[/QUOTE]

I can't comment on what you should do, but I would do double or nothing on my graduating debt that no one from the committee will ever read this. That's not to say you should write about what you did here per se, just this website is for people who are a little neurotic about school. And how many med students aren't? Just the thought of someone on the committee reading this should be one of the last things you worry about right now.

 

[Taurus]

Whatever happens, I hope the OP lets us know what the outcome is and what he/she may have done differently.

 

[hotchocolate]

thanks to everyone for your replies, especially the suggestions from gro2001, jjp1633, and notdeadyet, I may end up needing to say that IF I can have a lawyer at the meeting.

I will try to update everyone after I get my **** together for this meeting and its over and done with, but until then I will probably not post much. Thanks for all the suggestions and support though, I really really needed it and I really really appreciate it!!!🙂🙂🙂

 

[Taurus]

Some students were ratted out to the deans by other students for making "unprofessional" remarks on their blogs. Those students eventually got kicked out of school

I would like to hear more about this. This sounds like the school is overstepping its authority, especially if these blogs are not on school network. Where is the protection of speech?

 

[Pembleton]

Good luck, hotchocolate.

 

[Tired]

I would like to hear more about this. This sounds like the school is overstepping its authority, especially if these blogs are not on school network. Where is the protection of speech?

"Freedom of Speech" applies specifically to government action. While colleges have historically been bastions of free speech, if they are private institutions there is no prohibition against restricting speech.

Also, as you may have noticed recently, you may no longer hold up banners that say "Bong Hits For Jesus."

 

[sendwich]

As for people in the administration possibly reading this, anything is possible because one of our deans reads students' blogs. Some students were ratted out to the deans by other students for making "unprofessional" remarks on their blogs. Those students eventually got kicked out of school (this is not the reason behind my dismissal though). Since then I've heardone of the deans reads every blog of every medical student at our school who has a blog. So I'm definitely not taking any chances, I don't see why SDN would be off-limits to such yahoos.

that's ridiculous. 👎

gluck with the appeal!!! 🙂

 

[EM_Rebuilder]

Just hearing about the blogs and such made me want to bring up a few points.


I certainly am one that believe strongly that what happens in my life outside of the hospital and outside of my professional life should be just that... outside. I do not think a doctor is 'better' than anyone and should not be treated any differently. I do not expect to command prestige nor do I want it. However, I have been reminded over and over that by being a physician, our character shall be held to a higher level than most other people. Yet, we were preached to in medical school that we should not be 'big shots' and that the entire medical team down to the lowest level nurse are all equals.

Its a Catch 22, I think, yet the powers that be can inflict much harm if they see fit. You have to 'roll with the punches' a bit in medicine and learn that, although you are not god, you have to virtually behave as if you were... and if you don't, someone acting on his behalf can bring the hammer down on you HARD!


It may be a blog, a new porn flick your star in, a bar fight you win, an episode of COPS your in, a bad call at a sons baseball game that P***ED you off and you came unglued... still, its our duty as a physician to always 'do whats right' and never stretch the boundries of moral/ethical/legal norms.

 

[DickyV]

I am no lawyer, but pretty sure its not legal to forbid someone legal counsel. Having a lawyer in the room, even if he doesnt do anything except read the fine print, should be a good indication that you are serious in your intent to stay.

Unfortunately, that only applies in actual criminal cases. School disciplinary procedures are often considered administrative hearings (or something similar) and the presence of lawyers can be limited or prohibited by a school.

I've sat on undergrad boards like this before. When a lawyer was present, it indicated to me that the student was responsible and serious about staying at the school - assuming the lawyer was there to shut up, listen and give advice to his/her client. When the lawyers started trying to manipulate the committee, we got pissed.

 

[Law2Doc]

Unfortunately, that only applies in actual criminal cases. School disciplinary procedures are often considered administrative hearings (or something similar) and the presence of lawyers can be limited or prohibited by a school.

I've sat on undergrad boards like this before. When a lawyer was present, it indicated to me that the student was responsible and serious about staying at the school - assuming the lawyer was there to shut up, listen and give advice to his/her client. When the lawyers started trying to manipulate the committee, we got pissed.

It's rare that someone in an administrative appeal would not be permitted legal counsel -- it is a legal proceeding. However I think more can be done by the lawyer before you actually get to this point, so it pays not to wait until there is a final decision that has to be appealed to start getting legal advice.

I agree with your last point, though -- a good lawyer knows when to stay silent and when not to. I have certainly seen lawyers who have snatched defeat from the hands of victory by not knowing when they were ahead. However more often then not, when lawyers try to bully, it means their professional read of the situation is that their client is already going down in flames. In such cases the end result is not usually affected by pis$ing people off. It's gamesmanship; all very calculated, sun-tsu like.

 

[DickyV]

It's rare that someone in an administrative appeal would not be permitted legal counsel -- it is a legal proceeding. However I think more can be done by the lawyer before you actually get to this point, so it pays not to wait until there is a final decision that has to be appealed to start getting legal advice.

I absolutely agree that the sooner you pick up a lawyer, the better. Even if the OP is uncertain as to whether or not to tell the school about retaining counsel, he'll at least have one.

At my undergrad, students in judicial proceedings were allowed to have an adviser present (lawyer or otherwise), but the adviser was strictly prohibited from speaking. I have seen schools where advisers are allowed into a hearing, UNLESS the adviser is a lawyer. (Doesn't seem very fair to me, though.)

Whether one is allowed in a hearing or not, though, the school cannot prohibit you from seeking the advice of a lawyer.

 

[BlondeCookie]

Getting a lawyer for representation is a catch 22 situation.

- On the one hand if you don't get a lawyer, you're screwed because you don't really know how to represent yourself.

- On the other hand, if you do get a lawyer and the school knows about it, the may really emphasize negative things in your student record to really bring out the worst in you. Med schools will go out of their way to cover their asses, even so far as faking documentation to make you look guilty.