Anyone else horrified?

[larryguy1960]

---

Members don't see this ad.

I was speaking with a friend who works at The Economist. He contacted me because he knows how I want to go to dental school. He also said that this debt ceiling situation could be just as influential on my decision as my DAT scores. He said that if the US doesn't raise the debt ceiling and we reach it, things like student loans could not only be much harder to obtain, but interest rates could hit 15%-20% (currently 6.8). I could get a perfect DAT and wouldn't be able to attend with interest rates like that.

Is anyone else as horrified as I am??

 

[hamburger90]

The debt ceiling WILL be raised, that is out of the equation. The question is what will happen after. I have posted a thread raising political ideas and opinions in this forum, many students very involved in politics (even dentist) think it will not be a big issue. Remember that this loans are not a expense for the government... they are indeed like taxes, part of their revenue. If they gradually decreased the number of distributed loans, their income as a consequence will decrease. 20 loans at a 7% interest provide a greater profit than 6 at 20 percent interest. Our government is careless for many of us, but they are not stupid to risk re-elections if you know what i mean.

 

[stevesteve121]

I was speaking with a friend who works at The Economist. He contacted me because he knows how I want to go to dental school. He also said that this debt ceiling situation could be just as influential on my decision as my DAT scores. He said that if the US doesn't raise the debt ceiling and we reach it, things like student loans could not only be much harder to obtain, but interest rates could hit 15%-20% (currently 6.8). I could get a perfect DAT and wouldn't be able to attend with interest rates like that.

Is anyone else as horrified as I am??

lol there is no way in hell interest rate is going to 15-20% any time soon.
if it does, there is no way on God's green earth is the U.S. able to pay back its mountain of debt
even as it stands right now there is a very likely chance of some sort of debt "restructuring" sometime down the line
any meaningful increase in interest rate right now will send the economy into a great depression and the government knows that

 

[yappy]

Yeah, it's very scary. Best thing to do is get well read on the situation and cast an informed vote. Lets hope we get to acheive our dreams and become a DDS - speaking personally I hope this grants me international practice rights because this country is becoming insufferable.

Just look who is planning to run in the next electon.... movie, book deals, realality TV, zero academic rigor for forming important opinions etc. etc. etc. then we have people talking about entitlements as if it's all free...

America is Idiocracy now.

 

[nap5035]

lol there is no way in hell interest rate is going to 15-20% any time soon.
if it does, there is no way on God's green earth is the U.S. able to pay back its mountain of debt
even as it stands right now there is a very likely chance of some sort of debt "restructuring" sometime down the line
any meaningful increase in interest rate right now will send the economy into a great depression and the government knows that

um if we hit the debt ceiling and decide not to raise it, interest rates will skyrocket. its not an opinion its simple economics.

maybe not 20% but anything higher than 6.8 % is getting absurd...some kids locked in 2.8% not too long ago

 

[lmaozedong1]

It's going to be raised...and we will all still keep living.

That's what I believe.

 

[hamburger90]

its getting raised dudes... obama i not going to have a default under his administration!

 

[NAVY DDS 2010]

its getting raised dudes... obama i not going to have a default under his administration!

It will not be an Obama -vs- Republican -vs- Democrat thing in the end. All sides are making as much noise as they can right now so they get what they want. BUT, in the end, no one there is stupid enough to allow the ceiling to not be raised before the end of the deadline. Otherwise, the markets would tank and everyone would be in a lose-lose situation. They are not going to allow that to happen. So, in the end, all of you will be able to get loans without a problem.

 

[Kahr]

Horrified? Not at all!

Of all the 10 dentists/specialists I've spoken to (off SDN), not one thought it was intelligent to go to dental school unless you had someone A) paying for dental school (parents, military, etc), or B) you had tremendous scholarships, or C) you were attending an "inexpensive" state school. Although none were so negative as to say you shouldn't go simply because of costs if it was your dream or some such, they were just stating their general opinion, one in which I share.

I'd prefer less people going into the field. I don't know about the rest of you, but the idea of dentistry becoming saturated one day like pharmacy is becoming, bothers me.

To be more on topic, I will say that it is disturbing on the whole the trend in college tuition rates across the country.

 

[stevesteve121]

Horrified? Not at all!

Of all the 10 dentists/specialists I've spoken to (off SDN), not one thought it was intelligent to go to dental school unless you had someone A) paying for dental school (parents, military, etc), or B) you had tremendous scholarships, or C) you were attending an "inexpensive" state school. Although none were so negative as to say you shouldn't go simply because of costs if it was your dream or some such, they were just stating their general opinion, one in which I share.

I'd prefer less people going into the field. I don't know about the rest of you, but the idea of dentistry becoming saturated one day like pharmacy is becoming, bothers me.

To be more on topic, I will say that it is disturbing on the whole the trend in college tuition rates across the country.

so let me get this straight.

first you phrase your "findings" in a way that expounds that ZERO out of TEN dentists thought it was good idea to go to dental school *unless one is able to graduate with a reasonable amount of debt;
when you could have just have just easily said that all of the same dentists thought it was a viable idea to go to dental school but whenever possible one should opt for the more affordable school(s)

then you "conveniently" go off topic and go on to share with us your headache of how dentistry might become saturated. [and just btw, do people who make these kind of baseless depressive statements in attempt to deter others from applying really think that they are able to reduce the number of applicant by >50%? to an extent that dental schools aren't even going to be able to fill its seats?]

and to top all this off?

 

[yappy]

Kahr. I have not experienced the same sentiment from the dentists I've shadowed. I do agree though that college tuition is getting higher and higher and it's a bad thing.

But to be clear - I dont really understand the math of what you're saying. If todays rates are any indicator of the future ( it's all we have to go by) assuming a dentist makes the ADA average and they took out ~200k for student loans they will make out pretty well in the long haul. It becomes even better if they utilize things like federal loan repayment options or live way below their means for the first 5 years to eliminate their debt.

Lets consider that the medium income in the US is just shy of 40k - many of who have undergrad debt too.

But yes, if my parents could pay for my dental education and hand me a practice that would be very nice... I imagine students dont get much significant advantage working with the military other than piece of mind due to their low compensation and need to enter the privite sector for their first time after leaving the military.

 

[larryguy1960]

kahr i really don't understand your post at all. you're telling me that 0 out of 10 dentists you spoke to said don't go to d school unless your parents are paying, have a huge scholarship (rare) or go to your state school?

 

[txaggie03]

A great deal of you guys on here are very contradictory in your thoughts.

For instance, I have read multiple times on this forum (not just this thread) that you are afraid that dentistry is going to become over saturated, but then you turn around, and in the very same post, you say that you are equally afraid of tuition increasing.
😕

 

[larryguy1960]

A great deal of you guys on here are very contradictory in your thoughts.

For instance, I have read multiple times on this forum (not just this thread) that you are afraid that dentistry is going to become over saturated, but then you turn around, and in the very same post, you say that you are equally afraid of tuition increasing.
😕

Who are you talking to?

 

[txaggie03]

While kahr is guilty of this this on this thread (and I didnt intend to target you out individually), it is only one instance in hundreds that I have seen.


The fact of the matter is that schools are a business, plain and simple. And just like any business, they will and should charge what they feel is a competitive price for their product. If they are charging too much, nobody will buy their product. And if they are cheap and the product is still quality, they will have people flocking all over them.


So in my opinion, the prices are just where they should be. Because every year, every class is filled. Are the doctors that are graduating with $100k debt any less educated than those with $450k debt? Only board passing rates can answer that question, and it would appear there isnt much disparity.

That being said, one of the doctors made a $350k smarter financial decision when it came time to buy their education.




Hell, there was a thread that ended up locked where members on here were trying to argue that dental school tuition should be free!!!! What world do these people live in??

 

[Bereno]

While kahr is guilty of this this on this thread (and I didnt intend to target you out individually), it is only one instance in hundreds that I have seen.


The fact of the matter is that schools are a business, plain and simple. And just like any business, they will and should charge what they feel is a competitive price for their product. If they are charging too much, nobody will buy their product. And if they are cheap and the product is still quality, they will have people flocking all over them.


So in my opinion, the prices are just where they should be. Because every year, every class is filled. Are the doctors that are graduating with $100k debt any less educated than those with $450k debt? Only board passing rates can answer that question, and it would appear there isnt much disparity.

That being said, one of the doctors made a $350k smarter financial decision when it came time to buy their education.




Hell, there was a thread that ended up locked where members on here were trying to argue that dental school tuition should be free!!!! What world do these people live in??

I was thinking the same thing (but I'm a finance major and look at things through a business filter).

However, you have to remember that a lot of people on this board are not terribly business savvy or economically inclined... This is NOT to say that there are none who know business and econ very well, its just that they are the minority.

For me, I am going into dentistry because I love working with my hands, and want to own my own business, and what better way than to help someone while doing it? If I wanted to make a bunch of money, then I would have stayed on my path in mergers contracts... Yes tuition is going up and that is because more people are applying. Like txaggie03 said: supply and demand. just my $0.02 😀

 

[Kahr]

Kahr. I have not experienced the same sentiment from the dentists I've shadowed. I do agree though that college tuition is getting higher and higher and it's a bad thing.

But to be clear - I dont really understand the math of what you're saying. If todays rates are any indicator of the future ( it's all we have to go by) assuming a dentist makes the ADA average and they took out ~200k for student loans they will make out pretty well in the long haul. It becomes even better if they utilize things like federal loan repayment options or live way below their means for the first 5 years to eliminate their debt.

Lets consider that the medium income in the US is just shy of 40k - many of who have undergrad debt too.

But yes, if my parents could pay for my dental education and hand me a practice that would be very nice... I imagine students dont get much significant advantage working with the military other than piece of mind due to their low compensation and need to enter the privite sector for their first time after leaving the military.

What math? I'm not sure what you're referring to about my statement. Do you mean the dentists' statement? Re-stated: None of the dentists I've shadowed or know in general, have thought it a good idea to take on a massive amount of debt for dental school, unless you have a good way to deal with it. Perhaps I should have prefaced that almost every one of them had a military scholarship, went to a school with in-state tuition or had WICHE, or had their parents paying for all or part of it. Of course this isn't some collective opinion across dentistry, it's just what I've experienced, and clearly not what you have.

kahr i really don't understand your post at all. you're telling me that 0 out of 10 dentists you spoke to said don't go to d school unless your parents are paying, have a huge scholarship (rare) or go to your state school?

I didn't say 0 anywhere, that guy earlier mis-quoted me. If you want to re-phrase accurately, it would be "10 out of 10". I suppose I should've phrased that in a way that could not be misconstrued at all. "Of all the 10 dentists/specialists I've spoken to (off SDN), not one thought it was intelligent to go to dental school unless..." They all thought it was a bad idea unless a, b, or c conditions apply, is what I meant to convey.

A great deal of you guys on here are very contradictory in your thoughts.

For instance, I have read multiple times on this forum (not just this thread) that you are afraid that dentistry is going to become over saturated, but then you turn around, and in the very same post, you say that you are equally afraid of tuition increasing.
😕

While kahr is guilty of this this on this thread (and I didnt intend to target you out individually), it is only one instance in hundreds that I have seen.

Not afraid of dentistry becoming over saturated, I said I'd prefer less people go into the field, and that the idea of it possibly happening bothers me. Perhaps this seems synonymous with your statements, I disagree.

Equally afraid of tuition increasing? When did I say that? I made a flat statement that tuition ISincreasing, and that it is disturbing. I really don't see how that's a translation of what I said.

So in my defense, I'm going to say that I'm not guilty of either point in the manner you stated.

---

I don't know why I'm surprised at the reactions here (pugnacious and spammy, you know who you are), it always happens. I simply gave a reply to the OP's question/topic based on my experiences/feelings/thoughts.

 

[dentalWorks]

.

 

[txaggie03]

I am sorry if I had misinterpreted your stance on over saturation and tuition prices. However, after reading your explanation, I am even more confused.
Lets review one issue at a time.

First, lets look at over saturation...

I'd prefer less people going into the field. I don't know about the rest of you, but the idea of dentistry becoming saturated one day like pharmacy is becoming, bothers me.

Not afraid of dentistry becoming over saturated, I said I'd prefer less people go into the field, and that the idea of it possibly happening bothers me.

bother - to cause to be somewhat anxious or concerned. Synonyms: bug, chivy (or chivvy), disturb, intrude (upon), pester

afraid - filled with concern or regret over an unwanted situation. Synonyms: affrighted, aghast, alarmed, fearful, frightened, horrified, horror-struck, hysterical (also hysteric), scared, scary, shocked, spooked, terrified, terrorized





Now on to the tuition issue...

To be more on topic, I will say that it is disturbing on the whole the trend in college tuition rates across the country.

Equally afraid of tuition increasing? When did I say that? I made a flat statement that tuition ISincreasing, and that it is disturbing. I really don't see how that's a translation of what I said.

Disturbing - Synonyms: agitate, ail, alarm (also alarum), bother, concern, derail, discomfort, discompose, dismay, disquiet,

Perhaps this seems synonymous with your statements, I disagree.

I really don't see how that's a translation of what I said.

So in my defense, I'm going to say that I'm not guilty of either point in the manner you stated.

So you can understand my confusion.
If you want to argue semantics, that's a subject matter for a different thread.

 

[Kahr]

I am sorry if I had misinterpreted your stance on over saturation and tuition prices. However, after reading your explanation, I am even more confused.
Lets review one issue at a time.

First, lets look at over saturation...





bother - to cause to be somewhat anxious or concerned. Synonyms: bug, chivy (or chivvy), disturb, intrude (upon), pester

afraid - filled with concern or regret over an unwanted situation. Synonyms: affrighted, aghast, alarmed, fearful, frightened, horrified, horror-struck, hysterical (also hysteric), scared, scary, shocked, spooked, terrified, terrorized





Now on to the tuition issue...





Disturbing - Synonyms: agitate, ail, alarm (also alarum), bother, concern, derail, discomfort, discompose, dismay, disquiet,





So you can understand my confusion.
If you want to argue semantics, that's a subject matter for a different thread.

Time well spent, I'm sure.

 

[larryguy1960]

curious kahr, what would you consider acceptable debt? are you in school/applying? i know what the dentists in your network have suggested, but what are you doing?

 

[txaggie03]

Time well spent, I'm sure.

If there is anything worth doing, it is worth doing right.

 

[dentalWorks]

Poor Khar, you've stirred up the hornets nest lmao.

You can't come to a heavily religious pre-dental population and make claims about dentistry being a bad "financial" decision IN ANY WAY OR FORM.

 

[stevesteve121]

Poor Khar, you've stirred up the hornets nest lmao.

You can't come to a heavily religious pre-dental population and make claims about dentistry being a bad "financial" decision IN ANY WAY OR FORM.

its not so much that he makes unsubstantiated claims of how dental school are absolutely terrible investments but the fact that he makes it so obvious that his motivation in doing so is to deter others from going into dental school.

you tell us that none of the dentists your talked to said it was a good idea to go to dental school.
but what if i tell you that this was a recent picture taken from a local meet with all my dentist friends?

 

[larryguy1960]

That picture calms me in ways words cannot

 

[Kahr]

Poor Khar, you've stirred up the hornets nest lmao.

You can't come to a heavily religious pre-dental population and make claims about dentistry being a bad "financial" decision IN ANY WAY OR FORM.

I know! It kind of feels like I started a thread, with a long and serious diatribe about how terrible it is to go to dental school, rather than a casual reply to another poster.

Looking back at the OP's post, I have trouble believing people won't be able to get those loans regardless of interest and tuition rates, it seems like a great way for those banks to make money and a good investment on their part.

 

[yappy]

It's okay guys.... Kahr is still struggling with the fact he didn't get into RN school and had to become an RRT instead. He is reliving that experience now and must do all that he can to deter students from applying to DS.

Just kidding!

 

[Kahr]

It's okay guys.... Kahr is still struggling with the fact he didn't get into RN school and had to become an RRT instead. He is reliving that experience now and must do all that he can to deter students from applying to DS.

Just kidding!

That is an awful joke Yappy 🙁 I am however deeply impressed that you know what an RT is.

 

[OCDFlosser]

That picture calms me in ways words cannot

Same. I feel warm and fuzzy inside.

 

[dentalWorks]

its not so much that he makes unsubstantiated claims of how dental school are absolutely terrible investments but the fact that he makes it so obvious that his motivation in doing so is to deter others from going into dental school.

Im pretty sure that was never Kahr's selfish intentions. I've been around for a while and I don't think I ever got that sense from him (or any long-time member). Hes actually one of the most generous members around SDN... Did you know he voluntairly gave away his entire DAT study material for free? he even paid for shipping. Don't doesn't sound like a selfish individual to me

This is the one thing I don't about SDN: People's opinion's get attacked too often. On the other hand, I am the first person to speak up when I see bad advice thrown around, but opinions? I usually keep quite (or try to) even when I disagree.

 

[txaggie03]

This is the one thing I don't about SDN: People's opinion's get attacked too often. On the other hand, I am the first person to speak up when I see bad advice thrown around, but opinions? I usually keep quite (or try to) even when I disagree.

Oh come on. It is the internet.

The internet is for arguing. and porn.

 

[yappy]

Aye, us allied health misfits must stick together!

That is an awful joke Yappy 🙁 I am however deeply impressed that you know what an RT is.

 

[lmaozedong1]

Oh come on. It is the internet.

The internet is for porn. and arguing.

Fixed that for ya. 😀

 

[stevesteve121]

Im pretty sure that was never Kahr's selfish intentions. I've been around for a while and I don't think I ever got that sense from him (or any long-time member). Hes actually one of the most generous members around SDN... Did you know he voluntairly gave away his entire DAT study material for free? he even paid for shipping. Don't doesn't sound like a selfish individual to me

This is the one thing I don't about SDN: People's opinion's get attacked too often. On the other hand, I am the first person to speak up when I see bad advice thrown around, but opinions? I usually keep quite (or try to) even when I disagree.

Im pretty sure that was never Kahr's selfish intentions. I've been around for a while and I don't think I ever got that sense from him (or any long-time member). Hes actually one of the most generous members around SDN... Did you know he voluntairly gave away his entire DAT study material for free? he even paid for shipping. Don't doesn't sound like a selfish individual to me

This is the one thing I don't about SDN: People's opinion's get attacked too often. On the other hand, I am the first person to speak up when I see bad advice thrown around, but opinions? I usually keep quite (or try to) even when I disagree.

Ok that's good to know, as I had no previous encounters with Kahr in the past on this forum. And if true that's really good to hear, and it's certainly commendable that he was willing to do that in order to help other pre-dents and for that I'll come out and issue an official mea culpa.

But really, the reason I took particular issue with message #9 in this thread is b/c it stood out to me as off-topic, biased, manipulative and unsubstantiated. The "statistics" basically suggested that 100% of dentists thought it was stupid to go to dentist school, and that 75% of current dental students [save for the exceptions mentions] made a wrong decision, financially to attend their schools.

Not only did the author fail to give the readers the full set of details regarding his topic and/or possible solutions to allow them to make an informed decision for themselves, he left them high and dry and told everyone who is concerned about financing dental school to do him a favor not enter the field.

Point is, things are bad, and times are tough. But it's not the end of the world, far from it. Every sustained economic recover has began with a weak dollar and manufacturing utilization are increasing and more jobs are coming back to the U.S., forget unemployment rate as its only a lagging indicator and has usually been the worst at the bottom of the recessions. The interest rate is NOT going to 20%, that will absolutely crater the economy among other things and financing dental school will be of a much much lesser concern for pre-dents.

 

[Bereno]

That picture calms me in ways words cannot

Same. I feel warm and fuzzy inside.

I'm pretty sure you guys should get an MBA instead...

To the OP: I dont think rates would hit 20%. The people in the government are really not THAT stupid haha. Especially when this is a service driven economy. Furthermore, limiting such a substantial source of service based jobs (via college) due to such a large barrier to entry (high interest loans) would be asinine.

So.... nope, not horrified 👍

 

[Kahr]

Im pretty sure that was never Kahr's selfish intentions. I've been around for a while and I don't think I ever got that sense from him (or any long-time member). Hes actually one of the most generous members around SDN... Did you know he voluntairly gave away his entire DAT study material for free? he even paid for shipping. Don't doesn't sound like a selfish individual to me

This is the one thing I don't about SDN: People's opinion's get attacked too often. On the other hand, I am the first person to speak up when I see bad advice thrown around, but opinions? I usually keep quite (or try to) even when I disagree.

It wasn't my intention. Based on the way a certain member continues to pugnaciously hammer away and blow what I said out of proportion, I can only assume I am encountering a trololol; I'm further convinced based on the style of posting. Thankfully there is an ignore feature on SDN.

I had hoped my mention that they said "money shouldn't stop you if it's your dream" would count for something. Anyhow, DW, I thank you for your support. But I know that when I state an opinion, it's not protected, and that someone out there may jump on it, that's just the nature of public forums. To other topics!

Oh come on. It is the internet.

The internet is for arguing. and porn.

The difference with txaggie, is that he argued maturely and without gross dramatization. Which is why I bothered even attempting to defend myself with him/her. +1 for punctuation as well.

Aye, us allied health misfits must stick together!

Haha, I had my suspicions!

]I'm pretty sure you guys should get an MBA instead...[/U]

Quite pointed, but what I was thinking as well. Course, I had also considered that they simply admired cars and going to car shows, tried not to draw any definitive conclusions. 😉

 

[Bereno]

Quite pointed, but what I was thinking as well. Course, I had also considered that they simply admired cars and going to car shows, tried not to draw any definitive conclusions. 😉

Well, since I'm not under the gun here, I can make the pointed statements haha

+1 for grace and maturity Kahr 👍

 

[larryguy1960]

last night's speeches did nothing to make me less horrified.

im telling you, im not trying to be a debbie downer, but the already horrible 6.8% could be getting a lot worse

 

[letsdoitbama]

Isn't 6.8% limited for the first $20,500 annually anyways, then 7.9% after that (or am I just not understanding how this works)?

 

[DrFIXmyTOOTH]

I am against raising the debt ceiling. Ok we raise the debt ceiling, Than what? in another year the problem comes up again, and we are in a worse situation with more debt. If anyone thinks the government is going to control the spending should really look at the governments track record. The mature thing to do would be deal with the situation now, instead of kicking it down the road. Why is it the the cost of education has increased more than the cost of health care in the past 20 years? Because the government is involved. Not raising the debt ceiling will force the government to control its spending. We won't default, we can still pay the interest. Yes we will have to make drastic cuts, but that is a must anyways. Its up to you, some hard times now or some very very hard times in the near future. This debt based society can not go on forever

 

[theilleztpaki]

I am against raising the debt ceiling. Ok we raise the debt ceiling, Than what? in another year the problem comes up again, and we are in a worse situation with more debt. If anyone thinks the government is going to control the spending should really look at the governments track record. The mature thing to do would be deal with the situation now, instead of kicking it down the road. Why is it the the cost of education has increased more than the cost of health care in the past 20 years? Because the government is involved. Not raising the debt ceiling will force the government to control its spending. We won't default, we can still pay the interest. Yes we will have to make drastic cuts, but that is a must anyways. Its up to you, some hard times now or some very very hard times in the near future. This debt based society can not go on forever

yes, thats true..the government can pay the interest.

but the question is can we pay the new higher interest rates on student loans???

 

[DrFIXmyTOOTH]

Interest rates are kept artificial low by the fed. Low interest create bad investments and spending that should not happen. Hence the .com bubble and real estate bubble. The real question is not can you pay the higher interest, but do you want too? Prob not. The point of increase interest rates is to promote saving and hinder borrowing and spending. Something our country needs. You can't have everything man, from the .com bubble to now we were on an artificial high with easy money and low interest rates. Man up and face it, it is time for the withdraw symptoms to set it. If it takes a rise in interest rates and drastic cuts in entitlements to get this country back on track people including myself should be taking the haircut.

 

[budda10000]

It will be raised and a combo tax hike/spending cut package will probably happen. If not then the capital hill types will be running scared from the backlash that results.