Anyone else lost elective surgeries again?

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And yes, I do believe we should be a land of laws. We don’t abandon the law when it doesn’t suit us
And if the law in your area say wear a mask, then wear a mask
If we keep one person from dying from covid at the cost of having two people die from lack of preventative colonoscopies, delay in cancer treatments, lack of pediatric immunizations, delayed stemi care, etc plus the massive suffering caused by making people die and give birth alone,
And please point me in the direction where I disagree with any of the above treatments? Only thing I would disagree with in a time of dire need of nurses and ICU physicians is if the GI doc is using CRNAs/MDs to assist with propofol for colonoscopies and if the staff is willing to help in the ICUs then re purpose those docs and nurses to the ICU and push versed and fentanyl with your RNs. Please quote me where I said cancer treatment, pediatric immunizations, stemi care needs to stop/be delayed and people need to give birth alone. You won't find it, because I never said it. You are generalizing and putting words in my mouth.

I am not advocating to stop Covid as the ultimate goal, I am asking to minimize its spread by wearing masks and not congregating therefore inadvertently increasing it's spread. That is not that difficult to do. Your liberty of refusing to wear a mask, infringes on someone else's right of oh, I don't know. living. That is selfish.

It is quite difficult to have a discussion with someone who tries to put words in your mouth of things you didn't say and then try to label you as narrow minded.

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And if the law in your area say wear a mask, then wear a mask

And please point me in the direction where I disagree with any of the above treatments? Only thing I would disagree with in a time of dire need of nurses and ICU physicians is if the GI doc is using CRNAs/MDs to assist with propofol for colonoscopies and if the staff is willing to help in the ICUs then re purpose those docs and nurses to the ICU and push versed and fentanyl with your RNs. Please quote me where I said cancer treatment, pediatric immunizations, stemi care needs to stop/be delayed and people need to give birth alone. You won't find it, because I never said it. You are generalizing and putting words in my mouth.

I am not advocating to stop Covid as the ultimate goal, I am asking to minimize its spread by wearing masks and not congregating therefore inadvertently increasing it's spread. That is not that difficult to do. Your liberty of refusing to wear a mask, infringes on someone else's right of oh, I don't know. living. That is selfish.

It is quite difficult to have a discussion with someone who tries to put words in your mouth of things you didn't say and then try to label you as narrow minded.

Mask mandates by governors are likely no longer legal. I believe the minnosota courts agreed with that statement recent, but don’t hold me to it. And a law that is not legal is not a law.

You are falsely assuming you can read peoples thoughts. It’s a common cognitive error. It’s not a “screw off mentality” it’s a “this is unjust and leading to more harm than good at too high a cost” mentality. You don’t know peoples mentality

“But people are of the mentality that they will not be told what to do so they continue to go about their business like it's any other day, congregate, many without masks and put themselves and others in harms' way”


You even said the world would be better off without some of these people. Don’t walk it back now and say “oh, gee, I just wish people would wear masks.”


“But if their differing opinion and they way they choose to lead their lives ignoring warnings and guidelines leads to the preventable suffering and dying of others, they are selfish and only think of themselves.
Yeah, the world would be a much better place without them.”

You are lumping together everyone into one camp. Those that think covid is a hoax and those that have signed The Barrington Declaration into the same camp.
You made value decisions regarding other people and advocated for abandoning the constitution. You are lumping educated people who disagree with you and those who think covid is a hoax together. You are even assuming I don’t care. I care. Greatly. I’m working in an icu, exposing myself and my family. My wife was pregnant at the beginning of this and I went in not knowing the long term consequences. I’ve taken a pay cut. I’m researching covid. I care. I care deeply. I’ve just come to different conclusions than you.

“It’s not about being “narrow minded” it’s about caring about someone other than just yourself because again the research is there and easily accessible.”
 
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Choco is the typical intolerant sanctimonious arrogant Liberal who thinks he should control everyone else.

Some people choose quality of life over quantity. I believe it is ethical to give them that liberty!!

FLEE LIBERALISM NOW!!
 
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Mask mandates by governors are likely no longer legal. I believe the minnosota courts agreed with that statement recent, but don’t hold me to it. And a law that is not legal is not a law.

You are falsely assuming you can read peoples thoughts. It’s a common cognitive error. It’s not a “screw off mentality” it’s a “this is unjust and leading to more harm than good at too high a cost” mentality. You don’t know peoples mentality

“But people are of the mentality that they will not be told what to do so they continue to go about their business like it's any other day, congregate, many without masks and put themselves and others in harms' way”


You even said the world would be better off without some of these people. Don’t walk it back now and say “oh, gee, I just wish people would wear masks.”


“But if their differing opinion and they way they choose to lead their lives ignoring warnings and guidelines leads to the preventable suffering and dying of others, they are selfish and only think of themselves.
Yeah, the world would be a much better place without them.”

You are lumping together everyone into one camp. Those that think covid is a hoax and those that have signed The Barrington Declaration into the same camp.
You made value decisions regarding other people and advocated for abandoning the constitution. You are lumping educated people who disagree with you and those who think covid is a hoax together. You are even assuming I don’t care. I care. Greatly. I’m working in an icu, exposing myself and my family. My wife was pregnant at the beginning of this and I went in not knowing the long term consequences. I’ve taken a pay cut. I’m researching covid. I care. I care deeply. I’ve just come to different conclusions than you.

“It’s not about being “narrow minded” it’s about caring about someone other than just yourself because again the research is there and easily accessible.”
I am not walking or taking anything back. I stand by everything I said. I was specifically addressing areas where there was a mask mandate that was being ignored. The rest of the areas where there are no mandate, and people are walking around without them and congregating and acting like everything is a ok, I can't do much about except complain and be pissed off about it. But I still find those people selfish for ignoring the guidelines even though they don't have the law to make them wear the mask. Because there are other people in the same community who are vulnerable and are following the guidelines whether it's the law or not and have are exposed to these non maskers.

If you want to talk about walking things back look at how you were going on and on about your brother and how smart and educated he is and how he disagrees with people like me about mask wearing and in the next response "Well I didn't say I whole heartedly agreed with my brother." Sheesh.

You again keep putting words in my mouth. Where did I say to abandon the constitution? I addressed the fact that it was written by a bunch of racist white men who didn't value other non white men and that we should have evolved since then and you extrapolate and assume based on what I write that I said to abandon the constitution. You brought up the constitution and addressed its time and era and the people behind it and how outdated some of it's concepts are and some of its concepts are quite frankly hypocritical. Stop jumping to conclusions on my behalf. Address exactly what I write and stop "falsely assuming you know people's thoughts" as you put it. In this case my thoughts.

I am lumping all these non mask wearing, hoax believers, multiple degree holding, educated "it's against the constitution to make me wear a mask and I don't want to" people together because the outcome is the same regardless of who's refusing to wear the mask. It leads to more spread. You are an educated person. Do you really need me to explain this to you?
 
I am not walking or taking anything back. I stand by everything I said. I was specifically addressing areas where there was a mask mandate that was being ignored. The rest of the areas where there are no mandate, and people are walking around without them and congregating and acting like everything is a ok, I can't do much about except complain and be pissed off about it. But I still find those people selfish for ignoring the guidelines even though they don't have the law to make them wear the mask. Because there are other people in the same community who are vulnerable and are following the guidelines whether it's the law or not and have are exposed to these non maskers.

If you want to talk about walking things back look at how you were going on and on about your brother and how smart and educated he is and how he disagrees with people like me about mask wearing and in the next response "Well I didn't say I whole heartedly agreed with my brother." Sheesh.

You again keep putting words in my mouth. Where did I say to abandon the constitution? I addressed the fact that it was written by a bunch of racist white men who didn't value other non white men and that we should have evolved since then and you extrapolate and assume based on what I write that I said to abandon the constitution. You brought up the constitution and addressed its time and era and the people behind it and how outdated some of it's concepts are and some of its concepts are quite frankly hypocritical. Stop jumping to conclusions on my behalf. Address exactly what I write and stop "falsely assuming you know people's thoughts" as you put it. In this case my thoughts.

I am lumping all these non mask wearing, hoax believers, multiple degree holding, educated "it's against the constitution to make me wear a mask and I don't want to" people together because the outcome is the same regardless of who's refusing to wear the mask. It leads to more spread. You are an educated person. Do you really need me to explain this to you?

No. I suppose knowing that we are all lumped together in your mind and the world would be better without us is enough to know I should not engage further.
 
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Choco is the typical intolerant sanctimonious arrogant Liberal who thinks he should control everyone else.

Some people choose quality of life over quantity. I believe it is ethical to give them that liberty!!

FLEE LIBERALISM NOW!!
Sanctimonious or not, your liberties should not impinge on others pursuit of life. You want to shorten your quantity, don't do it at the expense of others.
I will take sanctimonious any day over being a completely self-centered person.
 
Sanctimonious or not, your liberties should not impinge on others pursuit of life. You want to shorten your quantity, don't do it at the expense of others.
I will take sanctimonious any day over being a completely self-centered person.

So should every person with the flu, strep, rsv all gown up and wear a mask? Who gets to decide what is serious enough to force everyone to do your bidding? You?
 
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So should every person with the flu, strep, rsv all gown up and wear a mask? Who gets to decide what is serious enough to force everyone to do your bidding? You?
We are talking of Covid19 and we are talking about CDC guidelines. It’s been decided, let’s stay on topic instead of personally trying to attack me.


You are welcome.
 
We are talking of Covid19 and we are talking about CDC guidelines. It’s been decided, let’s stay on topic instead of personally trying to attack me.


You are welcome.

Who made the CDC king? They have been wrong so many times and they still push all kinds of misleading information like “6 feet”, “15 minutes”, “wear a mask” even though “wear” and “mask” are so ridiculously open to interpretation that in many cases the false sense of security alone just makes things worse!!
 
Are many people following the guideline to wear a mask during love making?
 
Hey Mods. Don’t you think this screed has run it’s course?
 
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It would certainly be nice if masks were 100% effective at protecting the wearer and the people who got sick only had themselves to blame and only the selfish were punished...
 
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This thread somehow turned into "covid shaming" due to the miserable troll from the gas forums. Probably is best to shut it down.
 
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This thread somehow turned into "covid shaming" due to the miserable troll from the gas forums. Probably is best to shut it down.

Not to defend him or her, because I think they are incredibly off base here, disgustingly so (read: the world is better off without certain people), but I don’t think he or she is a troll. I spend a lot of time in the gas forums (there is a lot of cross-over between CCM and anesthesia) and I’ve never noticed them being a troll. I think this is just illogical hatred from an otherwise rational person.
 
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How many millions of people like this are running around out there? And if someone dies as a result they essentially committed (in)voluntary manslaughter. Just because it's done with a virus and not a gun or a car doesn't make them any less morally culpable.

This pandemic is certainly revealing people's character and there are a lot like this who would sacrifice their neighbor or even their own family just to avoid personal inconvenience.
 
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It’s a real tragedy that blocking one’s secretions has become a political stance.
 
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How many millions of people like this are running around out there? And if someone dies as a result they essentially committed (in)voluntary manslaughter. Just because it's done with a virus and not a gun or a car doesn't make them any less morally culpable.

This pandemic is certainly revealing people's character and there are a lot like this who would sacrifice their neighbor or even their own family just to avoid personal inconvenience.

Is it the same if you have a mild cold with RSV and you unknowingly give that to a toddler who dies? Is that also involuntary manslaughter? Where do you stop this madness?
 
Im serious: All of the sudden WHERE THE HELL DID ALL THE NURSES GO??

Like over the weekend all the nurses in California just picked up and took better offers elsewhere or what?

This is comically absurd, places are <15% ICU capacity not because the beds are full but because the staff literally went full invisible (wo)man.

Is it just me or did like 1000s of ICU nurses see the surge coming and be like "we are gonna sit this one out and just make tik tok videos."

How can everywhere be simultaneously short ICU nurses, they have be somewhere. They didnt all enter a pocket dimension to hide out.
 
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When you see what I see in the ICU, you will be hard pressed to "cheer up!" But it's a great idea. Maybe once the vaccine hits and people stop dying.
Are you doing autopsies on these patients?

Hold it, your coming onto a forum of PATHOLOGISTS. I did an autopsy because someone threw money at me and called me for 2 straight weeks and I ended up having to rip a dead person's lungs and heart through an incision I made in the abdomen because they wouldnt let me use a bone saw due to the aerosol risk.


tenor.gif



Have you pulled someone's thoracic organs out by hand?? Contemplate the level of physical strength to do that considering most elderly have such severe hardened calcific atherosclerosis that will turn all the vascular attachments into rock.
Im not impressed by ICU folks sitting and watching people die and then making tik tok videos.

NINTCHDBPICT000580187081.jpg
 
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Hold it, your coming onto a forum of PATHOLOGISTS. I did an autopsy because someone threw money at me and called me for 2 straight weeks and I ended up having to rip a dead person's lungs and heart through an incision I made in the abdomen because they wouldnt let me use a bone saw due to the aerosol risk.


View attachment 324401


Have you pulled someone's thoracic organs out by hand?? Contemplate the level of physical strength to do that considering most elderly have such severe hardened calcific atherosclerosis that will turn all the vascular attachments into rock.
Im not impressed by ICU folks sitting and watching people die and then making tik tok videos.

View attachment 324403
I don’t know if this was a joke, sarcasm or for real.
I don’t do TikTok videos. I have never even logged on to Tik Tok, don’t have an IG account and never post anything on FB. So you won’t find me online like that.
It seems like I hardly ever meet a pathologist who actually does autopsies in general and that is why I ask. The answer I always seem to get is “the ME does them.”
 
Hold it, your coming onto a forum of PATHOLOGISTS. I did an autopsy because someone threw money at me and called me for 2 straight weeks and I ended up having to rip a dead person's lungs and heart through an incision I made in the abdomen because they wouldnt let me use a bone saw due to the aerosol risk.


View attachment 324401


Have you pulled someone's thoracic organs out by hand?? Contemplate the level of physical strength to do that considering most elderly have such severe hardened calcific atherosclerosis that will turn all the vascular attachments into rock.
Im not impressed by ICU folks sitting and watching people die and then making tik tok videos.

View attachment 324403
You are obviously not a hunter. You dont need a bone saw to remove ribs. I did my autopsies with garden pruners, razor blades and a buck knife.
 
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You are obviously not a hunter. You dont need a bone saw to remove ribs. I did my autopsies with garden pruners, razor blades and a buck knife.

You are right . Field dressing a deer or hog is a Rokitansky.
 
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You are obviously not a hunter. You dont need a bone saw to remove ribs. I did my autopsies with garden pruners, razor blades and a buck knife.
I don't do autopsies in practice, but in residency the only use for the bone saw was the skull plate. We used pruning shears on the chest, cuts right through the ribs and rib cartilage and takes off the whole chest plate. Scalpel took care of the rest.
 
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I don’t know if this was a joke, sarcasm or for real.
I don’t do TikTok videos. I have never even logged on to Tik Tok, don’t have an IG account and never post anything on FB. So you won’t find me online like that.
It seems like I hardly ever meet a pathologist who actually does autopsies in general and that is why I ask. The answer I always seem to get is “the ME does them.”
Many pathologists outside of academia never do autopsies and those that do autopsies are typically infrequent. In my next of the woods most medium and smallish places have outsourced it completely to nearby academic centers. Becoming Too expensive for a 200 bed hospital to maintain and staff autopsy suite onsite.

About Covid specifically - you’ll be hard pressed to find any non-academic pathologist who has done a post on a Covid patient. Many places that do autopsies have been resistant or even declining requests for Covid posts.
 
Many pathologists outside of academia never do autopsies and those that do autopsies are typically infrequent. In my next of the woods most medium and smallish places have outsourced it completely to nearby academic centers. Becoming Too expensive for a 200 bed hospital to maintain and staff autopsy suite onsite.

About Covid specifically - you’ll be hard pressed to find any non-academic pathologist who has done a post on a Covid patient. Many places that do autopsies have been resistant or even declining requests for Covid posts.
And I don't blame them on Covid patients. What is the upside?
 
Is it the same if you have a mild cold with RSV and you unknowingly give that to a toddler who dies? Is that also involuntary manslaughter? Where do you stop this madness?

1) Common cold viruses are orders of magnitude less dangerous than covid

2) Hospital ICU's are not overflowing in "normal" times, which leads to...

3) It's a matter of taking reasonable precautions for the level of risk. If you know for a fact (or reasonably suspect) that you are infected with a dangerous virus at a time when healthcare capacity is stretched to the limit and yet you still willingly expose dozens if not hundreds of others, then yes you absolutely bear some moral responsibility.

If you were to argue that we should take more precautions as a baseline (like mask-wearing in Asia for common colds) then I would agree that's reasonable and would certainly reduce morbidity, mortality, and economic damages even outside the context of covid. But, I suspect you're just propping up a strawman and not actually arguing in good faith.
 
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I don't do autopsies in practice, but in residency the only use for the bone saw was the skull plate. We used pruning shears on the chest, cuts right through the ribs and rib cartilage and takes off the whole chest plate. Scalpel took care of the rest.
I once used a hammer and chisel to pop the lid. Worked, but it was a pain.
 
You guys don’t generally like autopsies?
Autopsies are the pathology equivalent of intubating a fat guy with meth teeth. No one likes it, but it’s sometimes an unfortunate part of the job.
 
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Im serious: All of the sudden WHERE THE HELL DID ALL THE NURSES GO??

Like over the weekend all the nurses in California just picked up and took better offers elsewhere or what?

This is comically absurd, places are <15% ICU capacity not because the beds are full but because the staff literally went full invisible (wo)man.

Is it just me or did like 1000s of ICU nurses see the surge coming and be like "we are gonna sit this one out and just make tik tok videos."

How can everywhere be simultaneously short ICU nurses, they have be somewhere. They didnt all enter a pocket dimension to hide out.
They all quit and went traveling for triple the money. This Covid has been good for nursing.
Although I thought they wouldn’t leave California since I thought California paid nurses well.
 
Not to defend him or her, because I think they are incredibly off base here, disgustingly so (read: the world is better off without certain people), but I don’t think he or she is a troll. I spend a lot of time in the gas forums (there is a lot of cross-over between CCM and anesthesia) and I’ve never noticed them being a troll. I think this is just illogical hatred from an otherwise rational person.
Quite frankly if I hadn’t made the comment under the context of Red versus Blue states, it would not have turned into anything.
That’s what I suspect. Had I just talked about people masking up instead of comparing the Blue versus Red, I doubt I would have gotten the heated responses that led to this.
I have been called troll lots of times. Anytime I leave my home forum that is. It won’t be the last.
 
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Hold it folks I showed up to do an autopsy and was told I could use NOTHING but a scalpel and my hands. And Im not joking. Go stick your hands up someone's abdomen after eviscerating them, cut through the diaphragm and then blindly attempt to remove the lungs and heart IN A PANDEMIC and tell me this like field dressing elk in Idaho...

Oh and by the way, I had precisely 42 minutes before the body was to be incinerated.

If there was a ninja challenge for pathology that is it.
 
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Autopsies are the pathology equivalent of intubating a fat guy with meth teeth. No one likes it, but it’s sometimes an unfortunate part of the job.

I thought if I charged alot no one would call me, but during these COVID times I have had to turn away like 20+ families. Its crazy, some pathologists are charging like 10K for "starters" to do a post now!!

I cant imagine losing someone and then paying 10K as a deposit to get an answer. Strange times indeed.

I have clue where the nurses went, I assume something to do with tik tok though or onlyfans or whatever that app strippers are using to make money during covid...
 
What unites Red and Blue pathologists is hatred of autopsies. Get paid nothing, miss lunch and usually dont find anything useful

They are the crabgrass in the garden of pathology.
 
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