Anyone else not getting as much tail in med school as they thought they would?

[Mad Jack]

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Everyone's "means" are different. Everyone's needs and wants are different. That's the point. You can have a ton of money and be happy living the way that's being described here or have nothing and need a new pair of shoes every week. It's not about that, it's about acting like you're some ****ing saint just because you're one way or the other

That's just the way you're reading it. Feel free to be offended, but you're taking it the wrong way. All I did was defend it being enough money for me. That doesn't make me a saint, that just makes me a guy with few financial needs. I just get offended when people claim such a thing is impossible like they know me.

 

[username456789]

@Law2Doc, this is definitely something we have to let the guys find out from experience, unfortunately. I used to be incredibly naive too and likely would've told you to buzz off. It's incredibly telling that it's the residents/attendings explaining one side, and the medical students who seem to disagree and feel that their "experiences" trump experience.

I look forward to the current crop of medical students being in my shoes in a few years, and I hope you find it equally as amusing.

 

[username456789]

L2D speaks the kind of truth one only learns through experience. He's also spot on the money, pun intended. The big thing is that young people commonly underestimate just how much it costs to live at a basic middle class level. You can carefully do the math all you want, point to the median income nationally being much lower than our salaries, but inevitably you will discover that he's right. Even if you live simply, you will still find yourself with less disposable income than you might think. It's nearly impossible to convince people of this until they've been through it, but it's true.

Maybe part of the disconnect is that people don't realize just how badly off financially so many people are in this country. Nobody posts their personal financial statements on heir Facebook feeds so you may not realize how bad off they are despite the appearances of affluence. You will live very comfortably as a physician and, with careful planning and intelligent spending, you can do very well. But it will be far from having more than you know what to do with. Life has a way of finding things to do with it.

Best thing to do while young is assume you too will find yourself with not quite enough. Make decisions assuming you will need and want more one day. If you break the mold and end up saving most of your money, well great, you win. Better that than being blindsided later.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Mad Jack]

L2D speaks the kind of truth one only learns through experience. He's also spot on the money, pun intended. The big thing is that young people commonly underestimate just how much it costs to live at a basic middle class level. You can carefully do the math all you want, point to the median income nationally being much lower than our salaries, but inevitably you will discover that he's right. Even if you live simply, you will still find yourself with less disposable income than you might think. It's nearly impossible to convince people of this until they've been through it, but it's true.

Maybe part of the disconnect is that people don't realize just how badly off financially so many people are in this country. Nobody posts their personal financial statements on heir Facebook feeds so you may not realize how bad off they are despite the appearances of affluence. You will live very comfortably as a physician and, with careful planning and intelligent spending, you can do very well. But it will be far from having more than you know what to do with. Life has a way of finding things to do with it.

Best thing to do while young is assume you too will find yourself with not quite enough. Make decisions assuming you will need and want more one day. If you break the mold and end up saving most of your money, well great, you win. Better that than being blindsided later.

But I was living on my own, already, for twelve years. I paid my own damn bills, I know how much living costs me. I guess that's why I'm so annoyed- people are acting like I'm some kid that's jumped right into med school, when I was a working adult that had to pay bills and make budgets. I'm plenty familiar with how much real life costs me to live, and it's not nearly as exaggerated as some people here make it out to be.

 

[fancymylotus]

I had no idea that all of my insurances, retirement planning, business related expenses, taxes, etc would end up being so much. As a dental student I definitely had no grasp on the reality of this stuff. This is before kids houses mortgages etc.


And no, shoe shopping is not part of the above.

 

[username456789]

But I was living on my own, already, for twelve years. I paid my own damn bills, I know how much living costs me. I guess that's why I'm so annoyed- people are acting like I'm some kid that's jumped right into med school, when I was a working adult that had to pay bills and make budgets. I'm plenty familiar with how much real life costs me to live, and it's not nearly as exaggerated as some people here make it out to be.

Instead of trying to take offense to what people are saying, exercise a bit of introspection and try to figure out why we are telling you what we are telling you.

 

[Señor S]

and why is that?

Because you can afford better and that being the case it's pointless and demoralizing to go without. Even as students all of us could probably stand to live more frugally than we do, but we don't.

 

[PL198]

@Law2Doc, this is definitely something we have to let the guys find out from experience, unfortunately. I used to be incredibly naive too and likely would've told you to buzz off. It's incredibly telling that it's the residents/attendings explaining one side, and the medical students who seem to disagree and feel that their "experiences" trump experience.

I look forward to the current crop of medical students being in my shoes in a few years, and I hope you find it equally as amusing.

You said in another thread you're going to be starting around 350-400K. You honestly think you won't be able to save a decent amount of money right out of the gate?

 

[Law2Doc]

I really fail to see how living in the same neighborhood as my friends (bartenders, correctional officers, EMTs, teachers, and the like) is going to stress me out lol. I afforded living there just fine before. I have a completely paid off new car and never had any CC debt. I lived in a nice 2 bedroom apartment. I guess the difference between your outlook and mine is where home is- maybe you grew up in the upper middle class and that's where you want to go back to. That's fine. I grew up lower middle class, in the kind of neighborhood that isn't all that wealthy, and that's home to me. That's where I want to go back to- the same damn place I left, because it's where I belong. And that makes this idea that I'm going to blow my money on fancy **** so laughable- who am I competing with? Who am I envying?

I think you'll find the dynamic between you and your EMT, correction officer and teacher friends is going to change once they realize you are in a different economic stratosphere, and you might find you can't go back home again. You might be hoping to live that way because you love it, but your neighbors are living that way because it's what they can afford, and this can create some uncomfortable situations, jealousy, requests for loans and the like.

Either way it doesn't negate the argument for the 99.999% of other future doctors who want more out of life than fire pits and occasional backpacking. Again I'd love to see your perspective in a decade because my bet is you are going to share in the laugh some of us are getting.

 

[fancymylotus]

You said in another thread you're going to be starting around 350-400K. You honestly think you won't be able to save a decent amount of money right out of the gate?

Do you know what the taxes on that income are probably like? Especially as a single person? I literally pay the equivalent of what most people would consider a great salary, in taxes a year, and that's BEFORE all the above mentioned expenses. I also do not make 400k.

And oh hey, if I want a bank to finance the purchase of my next practice, they want to see a certain amount of money sitting in my accounts. Liquid. Not my emergency fund, not the amount in my k or Roth, just monies that are there.

 

[W19]

Some people had a 'real' life before going to med school. I don't understand why people here think we should take everything an attending says as golden... I will be mortgage free by the time I am done with residency and we weren't making a lot of money... And our house is located in a mid-to-upper middle class neighborhood (Median household income in that neighborhood is 90k/year)... People have different priorities!

 

[Psai]

You said in another thread you're going to be starting around 350-400K. You honestly think you won't be able to save a decent amount of money right out of the gate?

Yeah he's going to spend the first year's money on a lambo then the second year on a house then the third year on his loans and be financially secure making a million bucks every 3 years for the rest of his life because that's how salary works

 

[Señor S]

You said in another thread you're going to be starting around 350-400K. You honestly think you won't be able to save a decent amount of money right out of the gate?

Of course it is, depending on how one defines "decent." But the point is that once taxes, savings, loans, house/car/schools and all the rest are taken care of and you've splurged on the usual indulgences there won't be huge wads of cash left over. You won't feel "rich," in other words, because there will invariably be a lot of things you want but just can't justify given your current budget, whatever it may be. And you'll be surrounded by people who do have at least some of those things, which will only make it that much more acute.

 

[PL198]

Do you know what the taxes on that income are probably like? Especially as a single person? I literally pay the equivalent of what most people would consider a great salary, in taxes a year, and that's BEFORE all the above mentioned expenses. I also do not make 400k.

And oh hey, if I want a bank to finance the purchase of my next practice, they want to see a certain amount of money sitting in my accounts. Liquid. Not my emergency fund, not the amount in my k or Roth, just monies that are there.

but who was tax deductions

 

[Mad Jack]

I think you'll find the dynamic between you and your EMT, correction officer and teacher friends is going to change once they realize you are in a different economic stratosphere, and you might find you can't go back home again. You might be hoping to live that way because you love it, but your neighbors are living that way because it's what they can afford, and this can create some uncomfortable situations, jealousy, requests for loans and the like.

Either way it doesn't negate the argument for the 99.999% of other future doctors who want more out of life than fire pits and occasional backpacking. Again I'd love to see your perspective in a decade because my bet is you are going to share in the laugh some of us are getting.

I never said what I want in life is what most people want. But we'll see. I'm a strange person in that I take more pleasure from saving than spending- seeing 600 bucks in my bank account makes me feel much better than playing with a new iPad. Maybe my priorities will change or my friends will- too soon to say really. We're on the first round of marriages next year.

Who knows though, I might not even make it through med school, a lot can happen.

 

[Porfirio]

Some people live below their means, some people live above their means, and some have nothing. Everyone lives differently.

I grew up in a house that lived below their means. I worked before medical school (4 years), and I lived at my means (saved more than the average person). Now, I live at my means.

Yes, life is expensive. But you get a choice in how expensive you want it to be. I believe the key is to be able to say, "No."

 

[username456789]

You said in another thread you're going to be starting around 350-400K. You honestly think you won't be able to save a decent amount of money right out of the gate?

With a debt to income ratio of ~1, my expected tax bracket coupled with the interest on student loans being 6.8-8%, and starting a family/hoping to buy our first house sometime soon?

Absolutely.

 

[Porfirio]

With a debt to income ratio of ~1, my expected tax bracket coupled with the interest on student loans being 6.8-8%, and starting a family/hoping to buy our first house sometime soon?

Absolutely.

Why is your student loan interest 6.8-8%? Have you looked into refinancing?

 

[Psai]

Why is your student loan interest 6.8-8%? Have you looked into refinancing?

Because that's what congress set it at?

 

[PL198]

With a debt to income ratio of ~1, my expected tax bracket coupled with the interest on student loans being 6.8-8%, and starting a family/hoping to buy our first house sometime soon?

Absolutely.

you have massive debt compared to average tho and not everyone will be looking to start a family. obviously I asked you the question but just sayin, if you have average debt and no family you'd be ballin

 

[Law2Doc]

you have massive debt compared to average tho and not everyone will be looking to start a family. obviously I asked you the question but just sayin, if you have average debt and no family you'd be ballin

Meh, many of the people without his debt level end up earning less out of the gate too, so for many it's the same story. He's got above average debt but is starting at very much an above average salary, so he's actually better off than the guy with the more typical $200k debt who walks into the not so unusual $200k salary.

 

[PL198]

Meh, many of the people without his debt level end up earning less out of the gate too, so for many it's the same story. He's got above average debt but is starting at very much an above average salary, so he's actually better off than the guy with the more typical $200k debt who walks into the not so unusual $200k salary.

agreed

 

[username456789]

you have massive debt compared to average tho and not everyone will be looking to start a family. obviously I asked you the question but just sayin, if you have average debt and no family you'd be ballin

I also have above average starting salary.

 

[Porfirio]

Because that's what congress set it at?

Status shows that he is a Resident. You can refinance your student loans after finishing medical school (some vendors even allow you to refinance once you have Matched).

 

[Psai]

Status shows that he is a Resident. You can refinance your student loans after finishing medical school (some vendors even allow you to refinance once you have Matched).

Hm this is very interesting. Am reading about this now, thanks.

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

Thanks-I needed the chuckle. Please refer back to this post in a few years and you'll see the humor in seeing.

Yes, You will have enough to pay your bills and some minor niceties but you'll be so far from "more money than I'd ever need" it's clearly going to surprise you. You'll still be watching your budget and tightening your belt on many things. Never underestimate the ability of your expenses to rise to meet your salary. Kids, daycare/nanny, exes, mortgages, taxes all end up costing a ton. I know you don't plan to pay for your future kids schooling, which is a biggie, but there are plenty of other huge expenses in your future that will eat at your nest egg.

Doctors aren't really rich, on average. They are kind of at an income level where they have a foot in two worlds-- they can see,want and afford a few of the things the upper class have, but there are a lot of expenditures that hurt to make and will come at the expense of spending. They have to prioritize in a way that those who have "more money than they could ever need" won't. Go to any fancy prep high school -- the "poor" kids will be those where one parent is a doctor (and haven't been through a divorce.) so yes if they prioritize kids education they can generally make it happen, but it makes other things very tight. Meaning you will still have money worries as a doctor. Probably more so because your kids will hang with kids whose parents buy them cars and throw them massive birthday parties, and go on fancy vacations you can't possibly afford, and your neighbors will quickly tire of bringing you along on their membership to the local country club, but you frankly can't afford to join or otherwise financially keep up. So basically you are still running the same race but now pitted against a faster class of runners.

Yes we all say we will continue to live like a resident as a doctor for a while, pay off bills, stay in the studio apartment eating pb&j and taking the bus to work a few more years, but it never happens. You will move to a place you can barely afford, drive a new car, continue your debt, and hope there's no big costly event down the road.

I don't believe the top 20% of docs income wise are magically more talented. They're doing what it takes to be in that top income bracket and it sounds like anyone who does the same will have less issues paying for the stuff you listed. There's plenty of ways to make more cash in medicine and just doing the 9-5 family med thing really isn't enough, at least when done the typical way.

Um I think you shouldn't be calling others naive when suggesting people continue living like a resident for two years beyond residency. I'm not talking about my own circumstances BTW, but I've been in this cycle of new professionals in two careers now so I certainly have had first hand insight about how this all plays out. As for looking at how people with lower incomes make do, apparently you missed the big point above that expenses will climb with income and though you won't have the same issues of how to pay the bills, you'll have a whole different set of problems. And as for the BMW reference I think you missed the statement I made three times that I'm not talking about luxury expenses. I'm talking about dependable minivans not luxury cars or mansions -- because as was discussed on another thread you won't be getting those on a new doctors salary.

I know residents driving BMWs/audis lol. It's not what I consider a luxury item.

 

[Dave89]

Being a medical student is an effective signal of at least a certain degree of intelligence, so it will attract (or, at least, pique the interest of) women interested in having that kind of partner.

But it won't get you much at the bar.

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

Being a medical student is an effective signal of at least a certain degree of intelligence, so it will attract (or, at least, pique the interest of) women interested in having that kind of partner.

But it won't get you much at the bar.

Exactly. Helps engage a minority of girls sometimes but won't go beyond that.

If you're looking for a legitimate relationship then being a doc helps you within your own league of looks. If you start shooting higher then you're most likely going to need to output a lot of cash to get there and the relationship will be the opposite of legitimate.

 

[Law2Doc]

... If you start shooting higher then you're most likely going to need to output a lot of cash to get there and the relationship will be the opposite of legitimate.

Meh, it has nothing to do with cash. We all know plain blue collar guys who date much more attractive women and they aren't achieving it with wads of cash or being doctors. It's mostly personality and confidence driven. They have "game". There are literally thousands of books on the subject. The problem for the OP is these guys have been getting the girls since junior high while he's hoping he will become "cooler" as a med student. Doesn't work that way. the guys who got dates as premeds continue to have success in med school. The guys who didn't take solace in the fact that they have more time to focus on their studies .🙂

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

Meh, it has nothing to do with cash. We all know plain blue collar guys who date much more attractive women and they aren't achieving it with wads of cash or being doctors. It's mostly personality and confidence driven. They have "game". There are literally thousands of books on the subject. The problem for the OP is these guys have been getting the girls since junior high while he's hoping he will become "cooler" as a med student. Doesn't work that way. the guys who got dates as premeds continue to have success in med school. The guys who didn't take solace in the fact that they have more time to focus on their studies .🙂

I very rarely see a guy with a girl that's more attractive than him. It's always other people underrating the guy and overrating the girl which creates the myth of less attractive guys doing well. In reality they're on par or if anything the girl is shooting above which is common nowadays.
Being outgoing does help a lot and confidence is a bit of a requirement. Though my point was the same in that cash or status in this context usually aren't important factors for most girls.

 

[fancymylotus]

I very rarely see a guy with a girl that's more attractive than him. It's always other people underrating the guy and overrating the girl which creates the myth of less attractive guys doing well. In reality they're on par or if anything the girl is shooting above which is common nowadays.
Being outgoing does help a lot and confidence is a bit of a requirement. Though my point was the same in that cash or status in this context usually aren't important factors for most girls.

My fiancé is more attractive than I am by a lot....no underrating going on over here

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

My fiancé is more attractive than I am by a lot....no underrating going on over here

Nowadays it's common to see guys putting more value into non-superficial things.

 

[fancymylotus]

Nowadays it's common to see guys putting more value into non-superficial things.

you just called me ugly I think

 

[Law2Doc]

I very rarely see a guy with a girl that's more attractive than him. It's always other people underrating the guy and overrating the girl which creates the myth of less attractive guys doing well...

All I can say is you need to get out more or go frequent different places. This is not at all a rare phenomenon.

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

All I can say is you need to get out more or go frequent different places. This is not at all a rare phenomenon.

I dont think so, I think it's just a matter of being observant. Guys only look for feminine features and therefore underrate guys. They also overrate girls depending on the setting and how the girl is dressed. In reality nearly all couples are well matched barring outliers/different circumstances everywhere in western society

 

[Psai]

I dont think so, I think it's just a matter of being observant. Guys only look for feminine features and therefore underrate guys. They also overrate girls depending on the setting and how the girl is dressed. In reality nearly all couples are well matched barring outliers/different circumstances everywhere in western society

I'm noticing that you have a rather skewed view of reality

 

[operaman]

But I was living on my own, already, for twelve years. I paid my own damn bills, I know how much living costs me. I guess that's why I'm so annoyed- people are acting like I'm some kid that's jumped right into med school, when I was a working adult that had to pay bills and make budgets. I'm plenty familiar with how much real life costs me to live, and it's not nearly as exaggerated as some people here make it out to be.

Yeah you definitely have a different perspective than most as you've already had some time in the real world. I think the biggest thing for us older folks is the percentage of our salary we will have to save if we want to retire at reasonable age. I love what I'm doing and think I'll probably keep practicing past that point, but again, better prepared than not.

I've done my own calculations for what I think my likely income will be and while it's very comfortable, taxes and retirement and loan repayment take a HUGE chunk of it. What's left over is decent but an amount i think I will have no trouble spending. I wonder what the difference in take home pay is between a PCP who is paying loans and saving adequately and an RT who is, like most young people, not really saving much beyond his matched 401k and has no loans to speak of. My guess is they are closer than many people would think.

 

[Mad Jack]

Yeah you definitely have a different perspective than most as you've already had some time in the real world. I think the biggest thing for us older folks is the percentage of our salary we will have to save if we want to retire at reasonable age. I love what I'm doing and think I'll probably keep practicing past that point, but again, better prepared than not.

I've done my own calculations for what I think my likely income will be and while it's very comfortable, taxes and retirement and loan repayment take a HUGE chunk of it. What's left over is decent but an amount i think I will have no trouble spending. I wonder what the difference in take home pay is between a PCP who is paying loans and saving adequately and an RT who is, like most young people, not really saving much beyond his matched 401k and has no loans to speak of. My guess is they are closer than many people would think.

Actually, I did the math when deciding to go back to school, and I'm going to have to retire a minimum of five years later. If it were just about finances, I'd have actually come out ahead going to PA school and saving heavily for the same period of time I'd have been going to medical school and residency. It's a sacrifice, for sure, which sucks, but hey, I'm not in this for the money.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Jesus tap dancing Christ. This has gotten ridiculous.

First, no one is saying that no physician ever was able to keep a fairly low cost of living or maintain inexpensive hobbies/house/car/whatever. However, that is much much less common than what Law2Doc is talking about.

Second, med school by itself will not improve your changes with women. The significant shift towards a more type-A personality that occurs in med school will. Money and status alone rarely get women. Confidence and self-assurance do.

/thread

 

[Kaustikos]

All I can say is you need to get out more or go frequent different places. This is not at all a rare phenomenon.

Seriously. I thought what you said was common knowledge

Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

.

 

[fancymylotus]

Litchfield County is where it's at man. We can be neighbors.

Fairfield! Although I'll never be able to afford to live there

 

[Mad Jack]

Fairfield! Although I'll never be able to afford to live there

Absolutely disgusting.

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

.

 

[fancymylotus]

As a CT born and raised native, I can safely say that if you're not from Fairfield County, you view those from it as New-Yorkers that perpetuate stereotypes about the state that aren't true lol.

I don't feel bad derailing the thread because it was ridiculous in the first place.

I'm from the county in New York right next to Fairfield, so I'm well aware of all of this. It's still my happy place, I feel like no one judges me here.

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

I'm noticing that you have a rather skewed view of reality

I'd argue that it's the complete opposite. Just go to any bar, club, restaurant, social setting, park or wherever.

 

[Demosthenes1]

OP, go to the gym, do yoga, get on Tinder. You're now 6'1" and incredibly well-read.

 

[Law2Doc]

I'd argue that it's the complete opposite...

You said that twice already. Everyone who posted subsequently disagreed with your version of reality.

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

You said that twice already. Everyone who posted subsequently disagreed with your version of reality.

Pretty small sample size of people disagreeing. Not to mention that most people statistically will lack the accurate experiences.
What I'm saying also follows common sense, logic, biology, whatever you want to name that makes sense. Everyone naturally wants the best but settles for the best they can get.
There are certain things like facial symmetry, a strong jawline, good eye area, broad shoulders, height and so on that are crucial in making a man attractive from a biological standpoint. Not sure how this can be disputed by anyone.

 

[Law2Doc]

... Not sure how this can be disputed by anyone.

You are all alone on this one -- the fact that you can't see what everyone else is talking about doesn't exactly help your argument.

And fwiw, you don't get to be the ONLY ONE (n=1) taking a certain position and then tell the half dozen people disagreeing with you that their sample size is too small. Sure the sample size is small but it's still many hundred percent better than what you are spinning.