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Anyone had enough?
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I agree with you man! I think I've had enough of this s--- after three years. I am planning my fourth year and I currently dont know what to do b/c nothing in medicine interests me. You can email me at [email protected]
I agree with Jessica: The 3rd year was grueling, very educational, but man, you get exposed to all the bad things in medicine, including bad patients, bad ancillary staff, bad residents/fellows/attendings.
I used to be gung-ho ortho, but I found that after working with some of the brightest orthopods, they don't want to do ANYTHING not related to bones or muscles. A diabetic with a broken bone gets a medicine consult immediately, even though insulin is not that hard to do (especially just copying the patient's previous doses that work).
First decided patients or no patients (anesthesia, radiology, path) in favor of patients.
Second decided kids vs. adults vs. old people, in favor of kids.
Third decided med vs. surgery (tough, tough decision. You gotta love surgery enough to sacrifice everything else).
Fourth decided acute vs. chronic (I hate chronic diseases)
Then you got to look at the people you're going to work with, their personalities and such.
Finally, if you're truly undecided, you're going to be happy and successful any direction, so just pick one. The relief of having picked a residency pathway is phenomenal.
-Todd MSIII (goin' to peds)
I used to be gung-ho ortho, but I found that after working with some of the brightest orthopods, they don't want to do ANYTHING not related to bones or muscles. A diabetic with a broken bone gets a medicine consult immediately, even though insulin is not that hard to do (especially just copying the patient's previous doses that work).
First decided patients or no patients (anesthesia, radiology, path) in favor of patients.
Second decided kids vs. adults vs. old people, in favor of kids.
Third decided med vs. surgery (tough, tough decision. You gotta love surgery enough to sacrifice everything else).
Fourth decided acute vs. chronic (I hate chronic diseases)
Then you got to look at the people you're going to work with, their personalities and such.
Finally, if you're truly undecided, you're going to be happy and successful any direction, so just pick one. The relief of having picked a residency pathway is phenomenal.
-Todd MSIII (goin' to peds)
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Hi todd! Thanks for the reply. I'm glad you chose peds- it was one of my favorite rotations. The problem I have with medicine is that I like patients but I don't like patients more thatn having a personal ife, more than a family etc. The surgery fields are way too much of a sacrifice to go into unless 1) you love it 2) you wont be happy doing anything else. Now, the compensation is so lousy that is doesnt pay to do it (the opportuniy cost is too much). Tens years ago when surgeons were making tons of money it was worth it but now with manged care and malpractice things just SUCK.
The problem I have with the nonpatient fields is that they are quite boring and frankly not the reason why I went to med school. Also, it wont be long before managed care messes with these guys.
So what else is left? Peds is a fun field but the compensation aint good and you gotta deal with parents crying kids etc. Also the specialties are hospital based so its hard to go out on your own. Medicine- its a long chronic process. Basically, its a very depressing field where you get the feeling that your not doing much for the patients. It's very draining mentally, emotionally,a nd physically and the lifestyle is lousy (in most specialties). It's really depressing when I rotated in medicine this year my attending was driving an old oldsmobile, has two kids and was struggling in Primary care to make ends meet (and he was a senior attenting about 55 yrs old and director of the medical group. This is not what I thought medicine would be like when I entered and I am looking for a way out or if you canthink of any other fields that I missed then by all means!
Jessica
The problem I have with the nonpatient fields is that they are quite boring and frankly not the reason why I went to med school. Also, it wont be long before managed care messes with these guys.
So what else is left? Peds is a fun field but the compensation aint good and you gotta deal with parents crying kids etc. Also the specialties are hospital based so its hard to go out on your own. Medicine- its a long chronic process. Basically, its a very depressing field where you get the feeling that your not doing much for the patients. It's very draining mentally, emotionally,a nd physically and the lifestyle is lousy (in most specialties). It's really depressing when I rotated in medicine this year my attending was driving an old oldsmobile, has two kids and was struggling in Primary care to make ends meet (and he was a senior attenting about 55 yrs old and director of the medical group. This is not what I thought medicine would be like when I entered and I am looking for a way out or if you canthink of any other fields that I missed then by all means!
Jessica
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Sounds like you are decided against surgery, leaving the more "medical" fields.
You could look into spubspecialties of medicine and peds. They do make a bit more money and some may still allow you to tailor a good lifestyle around them (allergy and immunology comes to mind).
Also, don't forget about things like ENT, urology, ophtho. Although they are considered "surgical," the actual practice is a mix of clinic and OR. Lifestyle as an attending is not bad and you will make enough money to survive.
Just some thoughts. It would be a shame to go to medical school wanting to work with patients and then end up in a non-medical career.
You could look into spubspecialties of medicine and peds. They do make a bit more money and some may still allow you to tailor a good lifestyle around them (allergy and immunology comes to mind).
Also, don't forget about things like ENT, urology, ophtho. Although they are considered "surgical," the actual practice is a mix of clinic and OR. Lifestyle as an attending is not bad and you will make enough money to survive.
Just some thoughts. It would be a shame to go to medical school wanting to work with patients and then end up in a non-medical career.
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I know what you mean by 3rd year being so grueling--there have been so many times when I think to myself "Is this worth it?" I'm taking as much time off as I can 4th year, I'll need it to recuperate before going into residency!
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Hi! i agree with you all that its a shame to go to med school and then not to work with patients but it's also a shame to do something that you don't like. I don't want to sound too pessimistic but I recall several years ago while volunteering at a hospital, af ew residents during lunch when we were alone told me "let me give you some advice- get the f--- out of this career when you can" At first I thought they were bitter, bad residents, and unprofessional. One of them told me hpw his sister who was only two years out of college drives a nicer car than him (he was a fourth year resident). At the time I didn't think much of it but I remeber him telling me " one day your gonna look back and remeber this conversation". I think the time has come for me!!
Anyways that being said, there are some nice things about medicine that I like but I guess maybe I'm just birnt out from third year.
Jessica
Anyways that being said, there are some nice things about medicine that I like but I guess maybe I'm just birnt out from third year.
Jessica
E
endo
It's frustrating to see med students get down on the fact that medicine isn't what they thought it would be. Many med students have never had a real job in their entire lives. I'll see that someone's posted "I could just've gone and wrote software / started a tech business and made millions!" I worked in software before going to medical school. I watched the company I worked for go out of business. I have friends in other fields who are struggling to find work. Even for the number of years you invest, medicine is still an excellent career. Very few other careers offer the same compensation, job security, independence, opportunity to "make a difference" (if not just in your own mind) and on and on -- all in the same package. It's soo easy to say you'd be better off doing something else when you're not -- and never have. After 4 years of med school, I'm _damn_ glad I went through all the crap I did to get here. Medicine has it's dark side, but so does everything else. Get real people.
"After 4 years of med school, I'm _damn_ glad I went through all the crap I did to get here."
Thank God atleast some one has something encouraging to say . you are the first person in about last 6-8 month who has something positive to say about medicine.
Medicine is difficult profession as it is and we all are trying to work hard and the best we can. We try to keep ourselves going thinking that in the end its will be worth it.However it seems like every doctor and medical student around me is unhappy which makes me question my decision every day.
I understand that we all get frustrated working hard and being on our toes all the time ,but its great when people mention postives along with negatives and have more fair and realistic discussions.
My two cents.
Thank God atleast some one has something encouraging to say . you are the first person in about last 6-8 month who has something positive to say about medicine.
Medicine is difficult profession as it is and we all are trying to work hard and the best we can. We try to keep ourselves going thinking that in the end its will be worth it.However it seems like every doctor and medical student around me is unhappy which makes me question my decision every day.
I understand that we all get frustrated working hard and being on our toes all the time ,but its great when people mention postives along with negatives and have more fair and realistic discussions.
My two cents.
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Listen, I'm a very non-traditional student, and have held jobs ranging from construction to cowboy to corporate executive. I've been in finance, started my own successful business (which I gave up to pursue med school), have published research, and taught at the grad level, so I think I have some base for comparison.
NO ONE can really know what med school will be like until you're there, and at our school incoming applicants are not told the whole story (and I'm sure this is not unique to this one school).
The great unspoken reality for some people is that this is not what they thought it would be, and never will be what they thought it would be, but few will admit to ever having these thoughts.
I started this thread to listen to those who have wrestled with their doubts about a medical career, and to be able to hear their thought processes, and perhaps to give those people a chance to hear others and know they aren't alone,
I appreciate the courage of those who took the time to respond to this issue.
NO ONE can really know what med school will be like until you're there, and at our school incoming applicants are not told the whole story (and I'm sure this is not unique to this one school).
The great unspoken reality for some people is that this is not what they thought it would be, and never will be what they thought it would be, but few will admit to ever having these thoughts.
I started this thread to listen to those who have wrestled with their doubts about a medical career, and to be able to hear their thought processes, and perhaps to give those people a chance to hear others and know they aren't alone,
I appreciate the courage of those who took the time to respond to this issue.
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I'm just not sure I'll make it.
My undergrad grades weren't good enough to get into a US school, but after a 9 on the MCAT and some A's in an MPH program, I got into the BGU-Columbia thing in Israel. This program turns out to be pretty tough - sending people to lots of good residiencies, which is great. But I'm barely passing my 2nd year tests, and in the bottom of my class - as an IMG, no less.
Now I'm headed toward the USMLE I this summer and I'm not sure I have what it takes. My abilites are in people skills and communication...things that would probably make a good doc. But I'm clearly weak in the basic science stuff, no matter how hard I try.
As I ponder the reality of being forced by my own inabilities to leave this field, I find that I'm not interested in cars or salaries or even stature. I just want to pay off my loans (which suddenly makes me interested in salaries again), live in a house, and be someone that can do good things for other people sometimes.
But I'm fried, tired of hearing "we want to inform you that you barely passed your xxxx exam", and tired of knowing that I'm unlikely to pass the USMLE.
I know most of you are further along than me, but maybe my situation will at least give you some form of impetus to keep going. For as bad is it sucks for all of you...at least you have the option to keep going. I would if I could, but it may not be possible for me.
My undergrad grades weren't good enough to get into a US school, but after a 9 on the MCAT and some A's in an MPH program, I got into the BGU-Columbia thing in Israel. This program turns out to be pretty tough - sending people to lots of good residiencies, which is great. But I'm barely passing my 2nd year tests, and in the bottom of my class - as an IMG, no less.
Now I'm headed toward the USMLE I this summer and I'm not sure I have what it takes. My abilites are in people skills and communication...things that would probably make a good doc. But I'm clearly weak in the basic science stuff, no matter how hard I try.
As I ponder the reality of being forced by my own inabilities to leave this field, I find that I'm not interested in cars or salaries or even stature. I just want to pay off my loans (which suddenly makes me interested in salaries again), live in a house, and be someone that can do good things for other people sometimes.
But I'm fried, tired of hearing "we want to inform you that you barely passed your xxxx exam", and tired of knowing that I'm unlikely to pass the USMLE.
I know most of you are further along than me, but maybe my situation will at least give you some form of impetus to keep going. For as bad is it sucks for all of you...at least you have the option to keep going. I would if I could, but it may not be possible for me.
secretwave101,
As a humble class of 2007er my advice may be taken as some what naive. Reading through the posts of this thread makes me ill. To think that we so deeply dedicate our lives to becoming doctors and get into school or get into that sought after residency and the perverbial flame simply dies out. Is it really possible to simply give up? Sittiing here on the outside I would like to think I will never give up, no matter how hard it gets.
So secretwave101 keep your head up and do everything in your power to pull through. As hard it seems now it will be that much harder to look back on what could have been if you don't make it.
As a humble class of 2007er my advice may be taken as some what naive. Reading through the posts of this thread makes me ill. To think that we so deeply dedicate our lives to becoming doctors and get into school or get into that sought after residency and the perverbial flame simply dies out. Is it really possible to simply give up? Sittiing here on the outside I would like to think I will never give up, no matter how hard it gets.
So secretwave101 keep your head up and do everything in your power to pull through. As hard it seems now it will be that much harder to look back on what could have been if you don't make it.
This is coming from someone about to graduate medical school, and has somewhat of an idea of what its like to work (I worked part time as a medical malpractice defense paralegal)...
There were times during 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and fourth year, where I doubted my decision to stick with medicine. (Listen, I've always wanted to be a doctor, so it was quite depressing). Seeing attendings complain about reimbursement, seeing them work long hours, seeing malpractice claims (from a student's point of view, as well as a paralegal), all put a damper on my view of what medicine meant to me.
But near the end of fourth year, when things came together, when I felt like I knew things, when I was ordering things for my patient, prescribing meidcine (with a signature), and working my own patients up, thigns got great. It was fun. I could help, I could teach, and I loved it. I'm going into my EM residnecy in about two months, and it is going to be a lot of fun, because I have found a specialty that I love (and gives me a LOT of time off for my other "life"), and because its a natural progression. A lot of third year studnets get down... but that's part of the beast...
If you didn't go into medicine, and went into the business world, you would realize how many people out THERE say "man, I wish I had a job that meant something..." and they all say to me "you're so lucky to do what you do..."
Q
There were times during 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and fourth year, where I doubted my decision to stick with medicine. (Listen, I've always wanted to be a doctor, so it was quite depressing). Seeing attendings complain about reimbursement, seeing them work long hours, seeing malpractice claims (from a student's point of view, as well as a paralegal), all put a damper on my view of what medicine meant to me.
But near the end of fourth year, when things came together, when I felt like I knew things, when I was ordering things for my patient, prescribing meidcine (with a signature), and working my own patients up, thigns got great. It was fun. I could help, I could teach, and I loved it. I'm going into my EM residnecy in about two months, and it is going to be a lot of fun, because I have found a specialty that I love (and gives me a LOT of time off for my other "life"), and because its a natural progression. A lot of third year studnets get down... but that's part of the beast...
If you didn't go into medicine, and went into the business world, you would realize how many people out THERE say "man, I wish I had a job that meant something..." and they all say to me "you're so lucky to do what you do..."
Q
The grass is always greener on the other side, especially if the other side has a lot of BS. 😛
QuinnNSU put a good point: I've had college classmates and others who respond with inflated admiration and this weird nostalgic sigh when I say I'm in medical school. My friend who works now at Microsoft x 3 years and has bought his first Saab loves to ask me about all the things I do, and I'm jealous of his 40-hour work week and the hobbies and life he has. To each his or her own.
Someone said this to me about 3rd year: "The worst part is that there are rotations where you just don't enjoy or care for, and finally, just finally, in 4th year, you get to do things you want, to practice medicine a little bit more like you will when you become the real thing." I liked that saying.
As swing had originally posted too, I've had lots of doubts about medicine as a career, especially after one particularly vicious and demoralizing attending during my OB/Gyn rotation. It was disheartening, but the following day I promised myself to work damn hard and beyond the attending's expectations just to prove it to her for spite. At one or two med school interviews, I told them that human suffering really pisses me off (still does), and now, no situation or person is going to stop me from doing what I want to do, dammit 😎. Yeehaw!
-Todd MSIII-->IV in 3 weeks! USC
QuinnNSU put a good point: I've had college classmates and others who respond with inflated admiration and this weird nostalgic sigh when I say I'm in medical school. My friend who works now at Microsoft x 3 years and has bought his first Saab loves to ask me about all the things I do, and I'm jealous of his 40-hour work week and the hobbies and life he has. To each his or her own.
Someone said this to me about 3rd year: "The worst part is that there are rotations where you just don't enjoy or care for, and finally, just finally, in 4th year, you get to do things you want, to practice medicine a little bit more like you will when you become the real thing." I liked that saying.
As swing had originally posted too, I've had lots of doubts about medicine as a career, especially after one particularly vicious and demoralizing attending during my OB/Gyn rotation. It was disheartening, but the following day I promised myself to work damn hard and beyond the attending's expectations just to prove it to her for spite. At one or two med school interviews, I told them that human suffering really pisses me off (still does), and now, no situation or person is going to stop me from doing what I want to do, dammit 😎. Yeehaw!
-Todd MSIII-->IV in 3 weeks! USC
E
endo
I guess one of the points I was trying to make is that people tend to be a little more unrealistic going into medicine as opposed to other careers. Anyhow, 4th year is great, so don't worry too much if you're tired after 3rd year.
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It's about time I heard someone with the same viewpoint as me on this board. I don't know why I read the messages on this board....most people here are so die-hard medicine...it makes me sick. It's admirable, but it makes me sick. We need doctors with that kind of drive, but it still makes me sick. Is there anyone out there that just wants to have a regular career in medicine, similar to any other non-medical job? I am tired of reading posts like......"Is my 33 MCAT good enough?"...."Should I go to Harvard or Hopkins?"....."I can't decide between neuroradiology and opthalmology/retinal specialist?" Give me a break. Honestly, do these people have lives? I long for the day when I can go home at night and leave my job at the office. I long for the day when I can take an afternoon off without feeling like I am letting the medical community down.
My class is full of gung-ho medical students. I don't get it. There is a base knowledge that medical students need to attain, I agree. But these people are just psycho/anal about everything. I am almost proud to be a slacker.
When it comes down to it...it's all about money. Some people admit it, and some people feel ashamed to admit it. People always say that money doesn't matter. Bull S__T! You can't tell me that you enjoy giving a significant amount of your adult life...along with a significant amount of your family life throughout your career....to help strangers with their health. If you put strangers health and well-being before your own life and family life....I say you are crazy. It's not worth it.
By the way...I am a first year med student. Any guesses on how my attitude will be after two more years of this crap?
Thanks for the vent.
My class is full of gung-ho medical students. I don't get it. There is a base knowledge that medical students need to attain, I agree. But these people are just psycho/anal about everything. I am almost proud to be a slacker.
When it comes down to it...it's all about money. Some people admit it, and some people feel ashamed to admit it. People always say that money doesn't matter. Bull S__T! You can't tell me that you enjoy giving a significant amount of your adult life...along with a significant amount of your family life throughout your career....to help strangers with their health. If you put strangers health and well-being before your own life and family life....I say you are crazy. It's not worth it.
By the way...I am a first year med student. Any guesses on how my attitude will be after two more years of this crap?
Thanks for the vent.
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You are not alone, although I have to say your viewpoint is a little advanced for your level of progress. You are not alone, you will find many more people in your class, or at least a few who feel the way you do, and you will become good friends, this happens in every med school class.
You will find others who make you want to vomit with their lack of personality or social ability, and overall general disgusting gunner tendencies. There are specialties that will provide you with the environment you need, and you will have the chance to be happy. You just have to make the right decisions along the way. To take good care of your patients, you have to take good care of yourself. There is nothing wrong with wanting a life outside of medicine, that is your right and if anyone tells you youre wrong, tell em to ......... Well you get the point.
To the student who is having a hard time making it through second year, I feel you. Many of us have some hard times during med school and depression seems to run rampant, along with good ole fashioned binge drinking. Realize that many people just arent volume memorizers, and you may be one of these people. For them, medical school can be particulary painful. But nobody makes a better doctor than a compassionate thinker! Who ever said a 250 on the step 1 meant you would be a good doctor? I know some people who did just that well and can barely tie their own shoes. Just pass the damn thing.
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amen to the above two messages. To the first year fellow. You can leave med school before you are so for in debt. Medicine is a "thankless" profession nowadays- taking care of people who want to sue you, people have no respect for doctors and you deal with tons of s---!!! True you get the same crap in other professions however other professions dont have the same sacrifice medicine has ie law is 3 yrs with summers off to make back money to pay tuition. Medicine is 4 yr mostly no summers and more expensive- plus 3-7 yr of training with minimum wage and no life. Lawyers now can make 150k out of law school. I think i'd rather deal with their crap...
Like I said, I used to feel the same way (and I see more of the evil that most medical students do, because of my med-mal defense work)... and nothing beats seeing a patient, knowing what's wrong with them, teaching them about what's going on, and making them feel better. Don't give up on it yet. You wont' realize that until your fourth year. The first three years are very tough, very thankless, very boring, very hard... but it gets SO much better... and I CANNOT WAIT until residency starts, then it'll be a lot of fun...
That's one reason why I like EM so much, its almost instant relief, very quick diagnosis, quick disposition, and move on. Plus lots of time off. No call. No crap. Do your time and you're out. (And every once in a while you get a patient who REALLY appreciates what you do...)
Q
That's one reason why I like EM so much, its almost instant relief, very quick diagnosis, quick disposition, and move on. Plus lots of time off. No call. No crap. Do your time and you're out. (And every once in a while you get a patient who REALLY appreciates what you do...)
Q
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To the first year fellow. You can leave med school before you are so for in debt.
I am one of the lucky ones who will not be in debt coming out of med-school, which is a big reason why I haven't dropped. I truly admire people who have had to pay there own way ever since high-school, which turns into an enormous debt after undergrad and medical school. I would never be able to do that. It must take a true love of medicine to give up so many years of income and so many years of young adulthood.
I am one of the lucky ones who will not be in debt coming out of med-school, which is a big reason why I haven't dropped. I truly admire people who have had to pay there own way ever since high-school, which turns into an enormous debt after undergrad and medical school. I would never be able to do that. It must take a true love of medicine to give up so many years of income and so many years of young adulthood.
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I definitely agree with some of the sentiments expressed in this thread. I'm a third year just finishing up clinical rotations, and I've just about had it with this ****. A few of my peaves:
1) Unclear expectations of students: Students don't have any real responsibility for patients (on most rotations). You may have patients that are supposedly 'your own', but the real responsibility falls on the intern or resident. They write the orders and communicate with the attending. Only on my medicine and ER rotations was I able to function more or less like an intern. Your only 'responsibility' is to be at the beck and call of your residents. It's impossible to know when you've done enough and it's okay to relax, read, or go home. It's very rare that a resident tells you when your work is done. This wouldn't be much of a problem if other students were willing to draw a line in the sand at when a certain level of participation is enough- but most students are so paranoid about evaluations, they'll forego sleep and reading time just to feign enthusiasm. On my current rotation- ob/gyn, I've just about surpassed the point at which I am no longer willing to pretend to care. I stand by my hatred of scrubbing into OR cases that include no meaningful participation. I stand by my desire, when I'm tired, to just go to sleep when on call, assuming the sky isn't falling in L&D. The residents get to sleep when there's no work to do, why can't students?
2) Shelf exams: Clinical work must always be balanced with reading time to study for exams. My class is extraordinarily competitive, so you really can't slack off studying for these exams if you want to beat the mean. Because these responsibilities must be balanced, it's hard not to always feel like you're not doing enough of one or the other. In the end, neither are any fun because you're constantly stressed about doing more of the other.
3) Lectures and scheduled activities: I'm sick of being told where and when I have to be somewhere, to do something that invariably wastes my time. This includes most lectures, conferences, morning reports, and sign-out rounds. It really galls me when an attending will make a point of asking where a particular student is, who is not present. Apparently this happened to me yesterday. I'm taking night call for L&D, which starts at 5pm. However, L&D has sign outs from 5-5:45pm. Students on both day and night call are forced to be there, even though they never participate, or learn anything. My clinic finished at 5pm, so I went to quickly eat dinner in the cafeteria, because I might not get to eat otherwise. Of course, I heard later that the program director interrupted sign outs to ask where the on-call student was, and then stared at me as I walked onto the ward (20 minutes late) as if it mattered.
4) Medicine is rapidly losing it's magical appeal. Before I came to medical school, I used to love helping people and connecting with them. I would watch tv shows like trauma: life in the er, and "the operation" and this looked like the coolest job in the world. Now I don't see much difference between being a doctor, and being an auto mechanic. You talk to the patient to figure out what's going on, then you follow whatever diagnostic algorithm fits their symptoms, and then prescribe the current standard of treatment. There's a little creativity mixed in there, but not much. The two experiences in medicine that keep me going are the adrenaline rush from crisis situations, and the connections I make with patients. I'm hoping that will be enough to sustain me through residency.
5) I'm no longer idealistic. Due to all of the above, I've become quite defensive of my free time. I'm also tired of not having an income. It's hard not to let these factors 'pollute' my thinking in picking a specialty.
Thoughts?
1) Unclear expectations of students: Students don't have any real responsibility for patients (on most rotations). You may have patients that are supposedly 'your own', but the real responsibility falls on the intern or resident. They write the orders and communicate with the attending. Only on my medicine and ER rotations was I able to function more or less like an intern. Your only 'responsibility' is to be at the beck and call of your residents. It's impossible to know when you've done enough and it's okay to relax, read, or go home. It's very rare that a resident tells you when your work is done. This wouldn't be much of a problem if other students were willing to draw a line in the sand at when a certain level of participation is enough- but most students are so paranoid about evaluations, they'll forego sleep and reading time just to feign enthusiasm. On my current rotation- ob/gyn, I've just about surpassed the point at which I am no longer willing to pretend to care. I stand by my hatred of scrubbing into OR cases that include no meaningful participation. I stand by my desire, when I'm tired, to just go to sleep when on call, assuming the sky isn't falling in L&D. The residents get to sleep when there's no work to do, why can't students?
2) Shelf exams: Clinical work must always be balanced with reading time to study for exams. My class is extraordinarily competitive, so you really can't slack off studying for these exams if you want to beat the mean. Because these responsibilities must be balanced, it's hard not to always feel like you're not doing enough of one or the other. In the end, neither are any fun because you're constantly stressed about doing more of the other.
3) Lectures and scheduled activities: I'm sick of being told where and when I have to be somewhere, to do something that invariably wastes my time. This includes most lectures, conferences, morning reports, and sign-out rounds. It really galls me when an attending will make a point of asking where a particular student is, who is not present. Apparently this happened to me yesterday. I'm taking night call for L&D, which starts at 5pm. However, L&D has sign outs from 5-5:45pm. Students on both day and night call are forced to be there, even though they never participate, or learn anything. My clinic finished at 5pm, so I went to quickly eat dinner in the cafeteria, because I might not get to eat otherwise. Of course, I heard later that the program director interrupted sign outs to ask where the on-call student was, and then stared at me as I walked onto the ward (20 minutes late) as if it mattered.
4) Medicine is rapidly losing it's magical appeal. Before I came to medical school, I used to love helping people and connecting with them. I would watch tv shows like trauma: life in the er, and "the operation" and this looked like the coolest job in the world. Now I don't see much difference between being a doctor, and being an auto mechanic. You talk to the patient to figure out what's going on, then you follow whatever diagnostic algorithm fits their symptoms, and then prescribe the current standard of treatment. There's a little creativity mixed in there, but not much. The two experiences in medicine that keep me going are the adrenaline rush from crisis situations, and the connections I make with patients. I'm hoping that will be enough to sustain me through residency.
5) I'm no longer idealistic. Due to all of the above, I've become quite defensive of my free time. I'm also tired of not having an income. It's hard not to let these factors 'pollute' my thinking in picking a specialty.
Thoughts?
E
endo
Despite the fact that you are treated like a 3rd grader in your 3rd year of medical school, I think it is totally worth it. Find what you like -- for me it is EM. When you're on other rotations, perhaps those you don't enjoy, just thank God every minute that you only have to do it for a month or so. The residents and attendings have to do it for an entire career. And this whole thing of "giving up your younger years" -- well, there _is_ time to have fun even though you're a med student. You really don't have to study 16 hours a day as a 1st/2nd year. 3rd year not as much time. 4th year, plenty of time. I agree about the crap of not being clear on when you can go home/eat... I always wondered if the residents were secretly testing the med student to see if he would commit the cardinal sin of asking to go home. When I'm a resident (2 months from now) I promise I will tell students they _must_go_eat_ and _must_go_home_. But hey, 4th year you can pretty much say "I'm going to go eat" or "I'm done with my work I think I'll go home," as they don't have you by the balls as much. 🙂
Hey PowerMD,
I'm on night call for OB/Gyn too. Fortunately, I am in a private hospital where no one cares (for the most part) what I am doing so I do get to sleep. Most of the staff would prefer I stay out of the way anyway. God help me if my attending has to come in for a delivery or section and catches me sleeping though. I've taken up sleeping with my book in my lap and my glasses on to be sneaky.
Anyway, I don't think anyone hasn't thought about why they put themselves through this, even the most dedicated of us. In addition, I also feel there is a significant difference between the perception of medicine and the reality. Therefore, many students have no idea what medicine is before they fully commit themselves.
That being said, I really do enjoy what I am doing, even though some days suck. There is no profession around where you will love every second of it. I can't think of anything I'd rather be doing for a CAREER (aside from professional athlete). Your rants are relevant, certainly. I feel fortunate to go to a school where few people are really gunners and the faculty and residents are great to work with (some exceptions).
Anyway, I hope you find some aspect of medicine that you enjoy and I suspect that once you get into those greener pastures, your mood will improve. Good luck.
I'm on night call for OB/Gyn too. Fortunately, I am in a private hospital where no one cares (for the most part) what I am doing so I do get to sleep. Most of the staff would prefer I stay out of the way anyway. God help me if my attending has to come in for a delivery or section and catches me sleeping though. I've taken up sleeping with my book in my lap and my glasses on to be sneaky.
Anyway, I don't think anyone hasn't thought about why they put themselves through this, even the most dedicated of us. In addition, I also feel there is a significant difference between the perception of medicine and the reality. Therefore, many students have no idea what medicine is before they fully commit themselves.
That being said, I really do enjoy what I am doing, even though some days suck. There is no profession around where you will love every second of it. I can't think of anything I'd rather be doing for a CAREER (aside from professional athlete). Your rants are relevant, certainly. I feel fortunate to go to a school where few people are really gunners and the faculty and residents are great to work with (some exceptions).
Anyway, I hope you find some aspect of medicine that you enjoy and I suspect that once you get into those greener pastures, your mood will improve. Good luck.
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Dont take this wrong, but thats hilarious! If I didnt know better you could tell me I had written that post my third year and I would have believed you.
I actually walked out of a case in OB when I wasnt scrubbed in and nobody was even looking at me or talking to me, and I couldnt see anything. I dont think I won any points for that one. Screw em. Keep your eye open, youll find what you like, it may not be for the reasons that you started out with but go with it. Are you big into physics, spatial relationships and path? RADS Do you like Pharm, and phys? ANES Or do you like orking with your hands and being treated like crap? SURG😀 Sorry couldnt resist. You get my point, your feelings are normal for a normal person during third year. Sure some of the holier than thou freaks dont feel that way, but many of your classmates do. I know I did.- Joined
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One of my biggest pet peeves with medicine is that the admissions process emphasizes the desire for well-rounded people. This is a total farce! I would say most people do the same old ECs during college - volunteering at the hospital, being a lab rat etc. just to check off tasks on a list of things to do. If you are genuinely "well-rounded" (i.e. truly love socializing, persuing hobbies, playing sports, being involved in meaningful relationships, clubs etc. - in short, being a "normal" person), you most likely will hate medical school and being a doctor. It doesn't take long to realize that to ENJOY being a doctor you have to have a totally 1-Dimensional personality to a large extent (larger than you might like to think!). From my discussions with residents and attendings it only gets worse. I think it's almost impossible to be a good doctor, spend quality time with your family, AND have enough time left over for personal interests, hobbies etc.
At a certain level, there is nothing wrong with this as doctors have an enormous responsibility. However, I just wish the application process would be more forthright. For example, one essay topic could be "As a med student, you will have no life - how will you be able to handle this?" Then, an applicant can reply by something to the effect of, "Well, as an undergrad, I studied 24/7 and never went out on weekends etc. so I'm up for it."
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you are truly a nerd who does little else but study or work, medicine might be a rewarding and exciting profession for you. If have a somewhat balanced perspective on life, you may end up being very disappointed with your career choice.
At a certain level, there is nothing wrong with this as doctors have an enormous responsibility. However, I just wish the application process would be more forthright. For example, one essay topic could be "As a med student, you will have no life - how will you be able to handle this?" Then, an applicant can reply by something to the effect of, "Well, as an undergrad, I studied 24/7 and never went out on weekends etc. so I'm up for it."
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you are truly a nerd who does little else but study or work, medicine might be a rewarding and exciting profession for you. If have a somewhat balanced perspective on life, you may end up being very disappointed with your career choice.
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All of these reasons are why I turned down medical school and am pursuing dental school fulltime. I was accepted into a medical school but I just don't want to do it. It's not worth it. Trust me, I would love to have the prestige that goes along with medicine but for the price that is involved, no thanks.
I'm a well rounded and fun loving individual that has a life outside of work. I'm a team player by nature and I really have no desire being better than others as long as I can get my fair share out of life. For me dentistry provides a more balanced life with some of the same perks as medicine minus the reputation. You can't have it all so I'll sacrifice on the reputation factor and take all ther other positives.
I'm a well rounded and fun loving individual that has a life outside of work. I'm a team player by nature and I really have no desire being better than others as long as I can get my fair share out of life. For me dentistry provides a more balanced life with some of the same perks as medicine minus the reputation. You can't have it all so I'll sacrifice on the reputation factor and take all ther other positives.
As jading as some thing about medicine can be, I am not sorry that I pursued it and am excited to graduate this May and begin residency. If you truly did not like the clinical rotations, I'd check out something different like path, anesthesia, or rads early in 4th year. Path often has little to no in-house call and can be very amenable to having many nights and weekends off.
Research is also another possibility after completion of medical school.Some people decide to graduate and do something completely different. If you've taken out a lot of loan money, make sure to talk to a financial aid officer hardship deferment is not likely to be applicable if your salary exceeds a certain amount (and monthly repayments can be high.)
Medical school is difficult but I had a life all 4 years- and a pretty good one at that. I made lots of great friends, managed to always find time to go out, and traveled halfway across the country this past year. You have to budget your time, but if you really like what you do, it's worth it. I still think it is fun it am looking forward to what's to come.
Research is also another possibility after completion of medical school.Some people decide to graduate and do something completely different. If you've taken out a lot of loan money, make sure to talk to a financial aid officer hardship deferment is not likely to be applicable if your salary exceeds a certain amount (and monthly repayments can be high.)
Medical school is difficult but I had a life all 4 years- and a pretty good one at that. I made lots of great friends, managed to always find time to go out, and traveled halfway across the country this past year. You have to budget your time, but if you really like what you do, it's worth it. I still think it is fun it am looking forward to what's to come.
Hm... I had a GREAT life during medical school. First year was a little rough, but I always went out, met new people, dated quite a bit (gotta love casual relationships), and made some great friends. Second year came around and I was going out 3-4 times a week (discovered red bull and vodka)... I really enjoyed my first two years of medical school...
Third year is a little different as you are in a completely new environemnt (for most medical students) and have a decent amount of responsibility (and learning to do)... the hours can be tough, and you are doing crappy rotations that you never wanted to do (surgery, ob/gyn, psych, peds, whatever). Fourth year comes around, though, and its a WHOLE DIFFERENT SCENARIO. It was like in high school when you were finally a senior. You actually knew some stuff, you knew most people that you were around... it was great...
PLUS you are doing (hopefully) rotatinos you want to do, and you are finding the specialty you want to do, and you know (relatively) how to do it.
I could never do a residency where I didn't think I would have a life. Am I the biggest proponent of EM or what? There is no doubt in my mind that I can still play hard and have a great time... even in residency. No CALL!
Q
Third year is a little different as you are in a completely new environemnt (for most medical students) and have a decent amount of responsibility (and learning to do)... the hours can be tough, and you are doing crappy rotations that you never wanted to do (surgery, ob/gyn, psych, peds, whatever). Fourth year comes around, though, and its a WHOLE DIFFERENT SCENARIO. It was like in high school when you were finally a senior. You actually knew some stuff, you knew most people that you were around... it was great...
PLUS you are doing (hopefully) rotatinos you want to do, and you are finding the specialty you want to do, and you know (relatively) how to do it.
I could never do a residency where I didn't think I would have a life. Am I the biggest proponent of EM or what? There is no doubt in my mind that I can still play hard and have a great time... even in residency. No CALL!
Q
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Personally, I am glad this discussion thread was started. It is almost a societal norm that doctors/med students speak only the best of their profession with non-medical persons, when the reality is that some have second thoughts; usually without the benefit of a sympathetic ear.
As a student wrapping up the 3rd year, I too am tired of my current toil and somewhat ambivalent about starting an internship year; presumably one that will be even more demanding. I would be lying if I said I had not had second thoughts, or if I hadn't considered non-residency options post-graduation. My personal life is more important than any career, and in a mortal fight with one another, medicine will loose every time.
I'm hanging on because I am hoping that my future in medicine will allow me to live in a more humane way than the one I live now. But if it doesn't, then I will bare no shame for having to leave it.
To the ones above that are disillusioned or struggling with the USMLE: You are not alone. I agree with the gentleman above. You bare no shame should you decide, or be forced, to peruse other career options.
Good luck wherever your heart leads you.
As a student wrapping up the 3rd year, I too am tired of my current toil and somewhat ambivalent about starting an internship year; presumably one that will be even more demanding. I would be lying if I said I had not had second thoughts, or if I hadn't considered non-residency options post-graduation. My personal life is more important than any career, and in a mortal fight with one another, medicine will loose every time.
I'm hanging on because I am hoping that my future in medicine will allow me to live in a more humane way than the one I live now. But if it doesn't, then I will bare no shame for having to leave it.
To the ones above that are disillusioned or struggling with the USMLE: You are not alone. I agree with the gentleman above. You bare no shame should you decide, or be forced, to peruse other career options.
Good luck wherever your heart leads you.
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You seem to have the right mindset of personal life versus career, as an unhappy physician will never be a good one. However the next twelve months will determine if you will be able to have a better life after med school or not choose your residency wisely. Make sure and explore all your options of specialties. Senior year is a very important one in my mind.
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Here's my 2 cents....I'm at the end of my 3rd year, and boy, I'm glad it's almost over. I'm thankful for my experiences but I am happy to never be a 3rd year medical student again. I agree wholeheartedly with everything powermd said in his post.
For the 1st and 2nd years posting, PLEASE keep in mind that you really cannot talk about how all these posts "make you ill", to quote mison, because YOU DO NOT KNOW YET WHAT 3rd year brings. Please do not pass judgement on us burned-out 3rd years when you haven't experienced what it is like to be us. This forum is a place to vent and to find others who feel the same way you do, and it is really kind of annoying to see 1st and 2nd years commenting on our commitment to medicine (or lack of) when all we're doing is venting our frustration.
For the 1st and 2nd years posting, PLEASE keep in mind that you really cannot talk about how all these posts "make you ill", to quote mison, because YOU DO NOT KNOW YET WHAT 3rd year brings. Please do not pass judgement on us burned-out 3rd years when you haven't experienced what it is like to be us. This forum is a place to vent and to find others who feel the same way you do, and it is really kind of annoying to see 1st and 2nd years commenting on our commitment to medicine (or lack of) when all we're doing is venting our frustration.
I felt the same way during my third year. I hated all the bull****. Working your ass off and then not getting an honors. Kissing ass. ETC.
It got better as an intern. You are more involved. Have a bit more respect with an MD after your name.
As a resident it got even better. I chose a great field (Radiology) which I find it diificult to understand how anyone picks any other field?
Keep your hopes up! Be patient. It gets better. I make tons of money moonighting and have recruitment offers daily for more money than you can imagine.
It got better as an intern. You are more involved. Have a bit more respect with an MD after your name.
As a resident it got even better. I chose a great field (Radiology) which I find it diificult to understand how anyone picks any other field?
Keep your hopes up! Be patient. It gets better. I make tons of money moonighting and have recruitment offers daily for more money than you can imagine.
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Third year is probably the hardest of med school, for several reasons. First, it's a new kind of environment. You've gotten very familiar with the sit on your butt and memorize trivia routine, Now you are thrust into an environment where you have to act like you have some responsibility but you don't really have the knowlege, and you certainly don't have the authority to go with it. Plus there is subjective grading and unclear expectations which are totally the opposite of every educational experience you've had to date.
Second, the diversity of 3rd year virtually guarentees that everyone will hate at least some of it. Don't like the OR? You'll be miserable in surgery and OB. Hate long rounds? You'll suffer throught medicine and peds. The personality type that loves surgery will hate psych.
THird, third year only touches some of the many possible careers in medicine. You may not find your niche at all...you may need to use 4th year electives for that. And most of the specialties that allow the best lifestyles aren't included in the 3rd year lineup. So it requries a little soul searching...do you feel like you want patient contact or can you be happy in your job without it? How do you like handling crisis?
Finally, the environment of a teaching institution is only one setting in which medicine is practiced. THere are many options once you finish residency and go into private practice. You can go to a small town. You can hook up with a very large group and take call only a couple times a month.
Those of you who are jaded and tired, hang in there. I bet that you can find an area of medicine in a practice setting that doesn't make you miserable.
It is possible to have a life in med school and residency. You might have to work at it a bit. You might have times when you aren't as active as you'd like to be, but it can be done. Case in point...one of my classmates ran a first triathalon during second year, now matched in orhtopedic surgery. Many surgeons (including Sentaor Bill Frist) are marathon runners. If surgeons find time to train for marathons (and many do this during residency), then anyone in any other residency could also find time for some personal pursuits.
Remember as a resident you aren't really being graded ( you do have evauations, but there isn't a grade) and you don't have to take a written exam every couple months. You are there to learn about your chosen field. You do have to take an annual exam, but that's about it.
Second, the diversity of 3rd year virtually guarentees that everyone will hate at least some of it. Don't like the OR? You'll be miserable in surgery and OB. Hate long rounds? You'll suffer throught medicine and peds. The personality type that loves surgery will hate psych.
THird, third year only touches some of the many possible careers in medicine. You may not find your niche at all...you may need to use 4th year electives for that. And most of the specialties that allow the best lifestyles aren't included in the 3rd year lineup. So it requries a little soul searching...do you feel like you want patient contact or can you be happy in your job without it? How do you like handling crisis?
Finally, the environment of a teaching institution is only one setting in which medicine is practiced. THere are many options once you finish residency and go into private practice. You can go to a small town. You can hook up with a very large group and take call only a couple times a month.
Those of you who are jaded and tired, hang in there. I bet that you can find an area of medicine in a practice setting that doesn't make you miserable.
It is possible to have a life in med school and residency. You might have to work at it a bit. You might have times when you aren't as active as you'd like to be, but it can be done. Case in point...one of my classmates ran a first triathalon during second year, now matched in orhtopedic surgery. Many surgeons (including Sentaor Bill Frist) are marathon runners. If surgeons find time to train for marathons (and many do this during residency), then anyone in any other residency could also find time for some personal pursuits.
Remember as a resident you aren't really being graded ( you do have evauations, but there isn't a grade) and you don't have to take a written exam every couple months. You are there to learn about your chosen field. You do have to take an annual exam, but that's about it.
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You're being pretty naive there. You must attend a top law school and work 60-90 hours a week as a lawyer. Ever been to a law message board? Lawyers have high rates of dissatisfaction too. That said, if you are bright, do not want to be a gunner and are lucky, you may find a good 120k a year job at 50 hours a week at the age of 25. But this is not too different from say dentistry, an MD with who works 40-50 hours at 150K a year or a 36 hour ER doc earning 180K a year.
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Well, wonders never cease! Oldandtired and I finally agree on something! I too found a field that I absolutely LOVE and couldn't imagine doing anything else. However, I didn't find my niche until early in the fourth year and was petrified that I wouldn't find a specilty I enjoyed. There is a field for everyone, it's just a matter of finding it. If you don't find it by the end of 3rd yr, you should consider specialty testing. Talk to your advisor about it.
Regarding 3rd yr, if you have bad or bitter residents it can be hell.
I was fortunate to have a great group of residents and attendings who treated me really well, so for me, third year was a good experience. I think it shaped the way I now treat my students. I never make them stay late if it's not necessary and I always give them the choice to stay (or leave) if something interesting is going on. I'm very straight forward about it and actually tell them..."this is NOT a test, you can hang around or go home". I always appreciated that kind of attitude and know they do too. If your residents aren't giving you clear direction, talk to them about it. Ask them what they expect. You deserve to know and you can't exactly read their minds.
Finally, when it comes to medicine as a profession, no matter how bad it is, it's still an amazing way to make a living. All bull**** aside, there is NO other profession that offers so much job security, income potential and prestige. I was a nontraditional student and medicine was my "second profession" so I know where of I speak. Also, I know it's a cliche, but I really enjoy helping people. I help them in ways no one else can. They know it and I know it. When they say thank you, they really mean it. Don't get me wrong, I love my free time and have a busy life outside of medicine. However, I'm being honest when I say there are days I would do it for free. Of course, there are also days when I think there's not enough money in the world to do what I do, but fortunately, the good days greatly outnumber the bad.
I know med school is hard. It's not for everyone. In fact, it's probably the most demanding profession there is and no one outside of medicine will ever truly understand what you've gone through. I too had many doubts along the way. But hang in there. Now that I can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel I can say it really is worth it!😀
Regarding 3rd yr, if you have bad or bitter residents it can be hell.
I was fortunate to have a great group of residents and attendings who treated me really well, so for me, third year was a good experience. I think it shaped the way I now treat my students. I never make them stay late if it's not necessary and I always give them the choice to stay (or leave) if something interesting is going on. I'm very straight forward about it and actually tell them..."this is NOT a test, you can hang around or go home". I always appreciated that kind of attitude and know they do too. If your residents aren't giving you clear direction, talk to them about it. Ask them what they expect. You deserve to know and you can't exactly read their minds.
Finally, when it comes to medicine as a profession, no matter how bad it is, it's still an amazing way to make a living. All bull**** aside, there is NO other profession that offers so much job security, income potential and prestige. I was a nontraditional student and medicine was my "second profession" so I know where of I speak. Also, I know it's a cliche, but I really enjoy helping people. I help them in ways no one else can. They know it and I know it. When they say thank you, they really mean it. Don't get me wrong, I love my free time and have a busy life outside of medicine. However, I'm being honest when I say there are days I would do it for free. Of course, there are also days when I think there's not enough money in the world to do what I do, but fortunately, the good days greatly outnumber the bad.
I know med school is hard. It's not for everyone. In fact, it's probably the most demanding profession there is and no one outside of medicine will ever truly understand what you've gone through. I too had many doubts along the way. But hang in there. Now that I can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel I can say it really is worth it!😀
My favorite song now is "That's Life," by Bleu. The first very loud line is:
"That's life: suck it up, you only get one!"
I play it whenever I'm driving to the hospital at a time when the freeways in LA are strangely deserted, and I feel less than inclined to help humanity. Like Neurogirl and others, I'm glad I picked medicine. Every job has its downsides: have you listened to the secretaries at the hospitals? Sheesh, I'm glad I don't have their jobs.
As for powermd's comments on stupid lectures, rounds, and other required things where learning doesn't happen: yes, it sucks. But we put up with 16+ years of it. C'mon, did we really need to know calculus to get to med school? Or Ancient Rome? High-school french? Home Ec? Cursive? (you can't read hospital writing anyway).
Ah well. 4th year is coming up, and things are already looking well.
-Todd MSIII USC
"That's life: suck it up, you only get one!"
I play it whenever I'm driving to the hospital at a time when the freeways in LA are strangely deserted, and I feel less than inclined to help humanity. Like Neurogirl and others, I'm glad I picked medicine. Every job has its downsides: have you listened to the secretaries at the hospitals? Sheesh, I'm glad I don't have their jobs.
As for powermd's comments on stupid lectures, rounds, and other required things where learning doesn't happen: yes, it sucks. But we put up with 16+ years of it. C'mon, did we really need to know calculus to get to med school? Or Ancient Rome? High-school french? Home Ec? Cursive? (you can't read hospital writing anyway).
Ah well. 4th year is coming up, and things are already looking well.
-Todd MSIII USC
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hi everyone,
firstof all, i've only read the more recent posts on this forum so i'm sorry if i'm addressing something that someone has already mentioned.
anyway, have any of you heard of/know anyone who took a year off b/w med school graduation and starting residency? like maybe they deferred their acceptance to a residency for a year, traveled/did research/whatever for a year then applied to a residency, etc. if a person takes a year off w/o applying for a residency during their 4th year, do residency pd's frown on this? that's what my parents (an m.d. and a nurse) said, but of course they'd like to see me finish my training and move on w/ my life.
i'm at the end of my 3rd year and am completely burned out, not to mention have absolutely no idea of what i want to specialize in. i feel like if i took a year off i'd have more time to soul-search, travel, adn figure things out and not spend time training in a specialty that i'm not interested in. i've already set up 4th year rotations so taking a year off b/w 3rd and 4th year isn't an option (though in retrospect this is what i wold've done.)
okay, sorry for rambling. i would appreciate any opinions people have on this, or is this just a phase everyone goes thru at the end of 3rd year??😕
firstof all, i've only read the more recent posts on this forum so i'm sorry if i'm addressing something that someone has already mentioned.
anyway, have any of you heard of/know anyone who took a year off b/w med school graduation and starting residency? like maybe they deferred their acceptance to a residency for a year, traveled/did research/whatever for a year then applied to a residency, etc. if a person takes a year off w/o applying for a residency during their 4th year, do residency pd's frown on this? that's what my parents (an m.d. and a nurse) said, but of course they'd like to see me finish my training and move on w/ my life.
i'm at the end of my 3rd year and am completely burned out, not to mention have absolutely no idea of what i want to specialize in. i feel like if i took a year off i'd have more time to soul-search, travel, adn figure things out and not spend time training in a specialty that i'm not interested in. i've already set up 4th year rotations so taking a year off b/w 3rd and 4th year isn't an option (though in retrospect this is what i wold've done.)
okay, sorry for rambling. i would appreciate any opinions people have on this, or is this just a phase everyone goes thru at the end of 3rd year??😕
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You can take this opinion with a grain of salt, since I'm an FMG, but people in my program take a year off b/t 3 and 4 or 4 and residency all the time and do just fine.
Of course, there are drawbacks in terms of clinical skills and loan accrual etc., but most people in my program stop for a year to get an MPH or travel and have had no problems upon "re-entry". As far as RD's go - I'd think the most competitive ones would want you to be married to your profession and anything out of the norm will weaken your app unless its directly related to research or something. But our students have had no problem with getting their 1st choice of the medical residencies, including EM.
A 40 year career in medicine passes quickly - and many of us want to have spent at least one of those years doing something outside that world of medicine.
So, I'd say go for it - not because you're burned out, per se - but because the idea will get you dreamin' again. There will always be sick people, but you won't always have your youth, your health, and the ability to spend a year enriching your life.
Of course, there are drawbacks in terms of clinical skills and loan accrual etc., but most people in my program stop for a year to get an MPH or travel and have had no problems upon "re-entry". As far as RD's go - I'd think the most competitive ones would want you to be married to your profession and anything out of the norm will weaken your app unless its directly related to research or something. But our students have had no problem with getting their 1st choice of the medical residencies, including EM.
A 40 year career in medicine passes quickly - and many of us want to have spent at least one of those years doing something outside that world of medicine.
So, I'd say go for it - not because you're burned out, per se - but because the idea will get you dreamin' again. There will always be sick people, but you won't always have your youth, your health, and the ability to spend a year enriching your life.
Boy this thread really gives me something to look forward to. 🙁
I think this is the first thread I've ever read on SDN that I wished I hadn't. Especially not before finals. I never knew that third year was that bad. It's kind of depressing because I could see myself getting burned out as well if it's as bad as most people here are saying.
I think this is the first thread I've ever read on SDN that I wished I hadn't. Especially not before finals. I never knew that third year was that bad. It's kind of depressing because I could see myself getting burned out as well if it's as bad as most people here are saying.
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Fenrezz is a pansy.
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I have had enough myself. but it is too late to quit now. Maybe it is the booze talking or may be it is my anger after four years of bull****, but I have to continue on. I am going to atleast graduate. I will be doing atleast an interniship and a residency. Then I hope to get an MBA or a JD and work in a non-patient care area of medicine. I am thinking about changing into a preventive medicine residency and then getting my MBA and trying to get a corporate job with no patient care and a decent salary. the other option is working in a laboratory after a pathology residency. Either way I have had enough- I am sick of it all.
Try radiology or pathology if you you hate clinical medicine. These fields are professionally satisfying and still let you be a doctor without the hassles and frustrations of patient care.
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I will check into that stuff. Right now- time to celebrate graduation. I am officially a doctor without a license now. In the next few months- I will figure it out.
Hey boilergirl76,
Would you graduate (get the MD), and then take a year off, and then apply for residency? This is a hard path to go for a number of reasons: Residency directors would look at the year off as a significant decline in clinical skills; you would lose the dean's letter as part of your application; you would apply to ERAS as an "independent candidate" where you would be pooled with the FMGs; Residency directors might see this time off as "waffling" in your commitment to medicine, which would make you a less than ideal House Officer.
I know this because I am currently a 4th year who extended to do 1 year of pure research before graduating (plus one or two clinical rotations to keep skills sharp). I wanted to graduate with my MD and then do research for awhile and then *maybe* do a residency. This idea was pretty much shot down by my dean, who said I would be far less competive if I entered the match this way.
I would advise taking a year off after 4th year but keep your student status. Take a "leave of absence" if you can. That way you can apply to the match sponsored by your school, and the time off shouldn't hurt you too much.
And, IMHO, it gets slightly better 4th year. Not enough to warrant actually becoming a clinician, but slightly better.
Would you graduate (get the MD), and then take a year off, and then apply for residency? This is a hard path to go for a number of reasons: Residency directors would look at the year off as a significant decline in clinical skills; you would lose the dean's letter as part of your application; you would apply to ERAS as an "independent candidate" where you would be pooled with the FMGs; Residency directors might see this time off as "waffling" in your commitment to medicine, which would make you a less than ideal House Officer.
I know this because I am currently a 4th year who extended to do 1 year of pure research before graduating (plus one or two clinical rotations to keep skills sharp). I wanted to graduate with my MD and then do research for awhile and then *maybe* do a residency. This idea was pretty much shot down by my dean, who said I would be far less competive if I entered the match this way.
I would advise taking a year off after 4th year but keep your student status. Take a "leave of absence" if you can. That way you can apply to the match sponsored by your school, and the time off shouldn't hurt you too much.
And, IMHO, it gets slightly better 4th year. Not enough to warrant actually becoming a clinician, but slightly better.
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According to Iserson's Guide to Getting Into Residency, which is written by a residency director, taking a year off should not adversly affect your chances of obtaining a residency later. Apparently they (residency directors) are used to seeing students take some time off for research, to have a child, or other reasons.
Of course, I'm not sure that applies to the situation above, where time may be taken off for purely elective reasons.
Of course, I'm not sure that applies to the situation above, where time may be taken off for purely elective reasons.
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Probably depends on the specialty.
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I agree that taking a year off between med school and internship, according to my school's dean of students, doesn't bode well at all. It can be a kiss of death if you are aiming at top surgical programs. They really want people to be sharp, on top of their game once internship starts in July, not someone who needs a couple month to "get back to the swing of things." In competitive fields that can be a distinct disadvantage. They will want you to explain your leave of absence and the year off doing "medical missions work" or something fluffy like that just wont cut it. I knew two person from my school over the past 2 years, took year off after their 4th year and try to match in ortho and neurosurg and got jacked. One of them openly admits that during his interview trail, PD's relentlessly questioned his intentions and motivations for taking the year off. So unless you have an extraordinary reason to do so, dont think about a year worth of vacation between MS and residency.
Another alternative is to match and then defer a year. But unless we are talking tremendous calamity like severe health issues, unavoidable political issues (I knew someone last year, some FMGs from Afghanistan and Pakistan had some trouble getting the necessary visa), other than that chances are slim that a program will let you do that.
The problem with becoming a doctor is that you go str8 from college, and enter a lifelong contract essentially. You get thousands of 22 year-old kids who have never held a real job in their lives, who may or may not have ever taken the time to decide what is they really want to do, and they get sucked up in to a life sentence of doctorhood.
These kids have no idea how life in the workplace really is. They only have their fantasies about "i-bankers making millions", internet IPO glory, or a wall$treet job, or being a professional surfer or whatever. So when things get hairy in medical school they get all wacked out.
I am not going to try and convince anyone that being a doctor is the best thing since cliced bread. For me, it's personally satisfying, enjoyable, and fun. I have moments of severe frustration, and even a few "what if" moments when I doubt myself and my choices. But I would guess that ANY field has this too.
Finally, no one is holding a gun to your head to go to medical school, take out loans, and get slaved as a resident. It was your choice. You can also choose to do something else.
Good luck.
These kids have no idea how life in the workplace really is. They only have their fantasies about "i-bankers making millions", internet IPO glory, or a wall$treet job, or being a professional surfer or whatever. So when things get hairy in medical school they get all wacked out.
I am not going to try and convince anyone that being a doctor is the best thing since cliced bread. For me, it's personally satisfying, enjoyable, and fun. I have moments of severe frustration, and even a few "what if" moments when I doubt myself and my choices. But I would guess that ANY field has this too.
Finally, no one is holding a gun to your head to go to medical school, take out loans, and get slaved as a resident. It was your choice. You can also choose to do something else.
Good luck.
too true... Hindsight is 20/20.
There is no good way to "take a break" from medicine at this point. Any time off unrelated to medicine will probably hurt you, but you *can* mitigate the damage (at least in theory). Just think ahead, talk to your Dean, and weigh the options.
Maybe if you talk to your Dean you could be like, "I want to take a year off to learn medical spanish and pick grapes in Chile. I've heard they speak spanish there..." You know, just see how he/she feels about the time off.
However, whatever you chose, don't let medicine be an obstacle to your happiness. You have an obligation to yourself too, you know.
As Desi Arnez sez, "Lucy!! You got some 'splainin' to do!!"
There is no good way to "take a break" from medicine at this point. Any time off unrelated to medicine will probably hurt you, but you *can* mitigate the damage (at least in theory). Just think ahead, talk to your Dean, and weigh the options.
Maybe if you talk to your Dean you could be like, "I want to take a year off to learn medical spanish and pick grapes in Chile. I've heard they speak spanish there..." You know, just see how he/she feels about the time off.
However, whatever you chose, don't let medicine be an obstacle to your happiness. You have an obligation to yourself too, you know.
As Desi Arnez sez, "Lucy!! You got some 'splainin' to do!!"
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this is an option that appeals to me as well. but, if you decide to go this route, is it necessary to get a MBA as well? it is my understanding that a master's of public health is required during the preventative/occupational medicine residency training.
an MPH & an MBA seems like alot of extra degrees to get along with the MD, for a nice cush corporate job.
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