Anyone here not enjoy surgery rotation and still end up going into surg/surg subspec?

[Newyawk]

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[MSTPlease]

What didn’t you like about it? Gen surg (which is what most med school clerkships are) is not the same as the other surgical specialties so I don’t think it’s unreasonable for someone considering ENT plastics ortho neurosurg etc to not enjoy gen surg, but I think it depends on why exactly you didn’t enjoy it.

 

[Newyawk]

What didn’t you like about it? Gen surg (which is what most med school clerkships are) is not the same as the other surgical specialties so I don’t think it’s unreasonable for someone considering ENT plastics ortho neurosurg etc to not enjoy gen surg, but I think it depends on why exactly you didn’t enjoy it.

Idk im just not as happy as i want to be. The hours are too long im too tired... cant enjoy my life. I think about doing a surgical subspecialty residency and i cant see myself being happy.
I dont "love" being in the OR whenim standing there doing close to nothing for 5 hours. I much prefer short procedures. I also like being pimped bc at least theres some teaching.

I realize how much i love physiology and it seems like surgeons, especially residents, dont care about the why and just the what. Ive always loved the why and how and it seems like nobody here cares about that.

 

[Oso]

Idk im just not as happy as i want to be. The hours are too long im too tired... cant enjoy my life. I think about doing a surgical subspecialty residency and i cant see myself being happy.
I dont "love" being in the OR whenim standing there doing close to nothing for 5 hours. I much prefer short procedures. I also like being pimped bc at least theres some teaching.

I realize how much i love physiology and it seems like surgeons, especially residents, dont care about the why and just the what. Ive always loved the why and how and it seems like nobody here cares about that.

I don't really understand your question then ...

You don't like the hours/lifestyle, you don't love being in the OR, and you love physiology - which is not a huge part of surgery (compared to anesthesia or CC, for example).

Sounds like you really don't want to be a surgeon. So why are you conflicted and considering a surgical subspecialty?


From what I remember, the few people I knew who did not enjoy their surgery rotation but ended up doing some type of surgery enjoyed the actual surgery/material but did not get along with someone on their team which ended up negatively coloring their experience of the clerkship overall.

 

[Redpancreas]

Idk im just not as happy as i want to be. The hours are too long im too tired... cant enjoy my life. I think about doing a surgical subspecialty residency and i cant see myself being happy.
I dont "love" being in the OR whenim standing there doing close to nothing for 5 hours. I much prefer short procedures. I also like being pimped bc at least theres some teaching.

I realize how much i love physiology and it seems like surgeons, especially residents, dont care about the why and just the what. Ive always loved the why and how and it seems like nobody here cares about that.

You should do surgery if you want to cut into people’s bodies and make an immediate difference above all else (lifestyle, etc). It sounds like you’re hinting at switching to IM Cards/GI/PCCM, but realize that it’s not the perfect mix of doing things and applying physiology as it first sounds. Oftentimes, consults are as straight forward as primary wants a scope or definitive ACS rule out. If you envision yourself as someone who needs procedural variety and wants to be thinking about how exactly you’re going to do an operation, stick with the surgical subspecialties. I honestly know many people who have matched into what you want to do who have the same gripes with Gen Surg. Consider doing an elective and meeting with faculty in your field. Also, see how your SubI is.

 

[Newyawk]

You should do surgery if you want to cut into people’s bodies and make an immediate difference above all else (lifestyle, etc). It sounds like you’re hinting at switching to IM Cards/GI/PCCM, but realize that it’s not the perfect mix of doing things and applying physiology as it first sounds. Oftentimes, consults are as straight forward as primary wants a scope or definitive ACS rule out. If you envision yourself as someone who needs procedural variety and wants to be thinking about how exactly you’re going to do an operation, stick with the surgical subspecialties. I honestly know many people who have matched into what you want to do who have the same gripes with Gen Surg. Consider doing an elective and meeting with faculty in your field. Also, see how your SubI is.

I don't really understand your question then ...

You don't like the hours/lifestyle, you don't love being in the OR, and you love physiology - which is not a huge part of surgery (compared to anesthesia or CC, for example).

Sounds like you really don't want to be a surgeon. So why are you conflicted and considering a surgical subspecialty?


From what I remember, the few people I knew who did not enjoy their surgery rotation but ended up doing some type of surgery enjoyed the actual surgery/material but did not get along with someone on their team which ended up negatively coloring their experience of the clerkship overall.

I think synchronize summed it up well. And i remember being on medicine and seeing how the practice really doesnt involve much thinking either in most cases. But Oso your points are exactly what makes me feel like i shouldnt be doing this.

 

[Redpancreas]

I think synchronize summed it up well. And i remember being on medicine and seeing how the practice really doesnt involve much thinking either in most cases. But Oso your points are exactly what makes me feel like i shouldnt be doing this.

You may just have a glorified view of medicine in general.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Idk im just not as happy as i want to be. The hours are too long im too tired... cant enjoy my life. I think about doing a surgical subspecialty residency and i cant see myself being happy.
I dont "love" being in the OR whenim standing there doing close to nothing for 5 hours. I much prefer short procedures. I also like being pimped bc at least theres some teaching.

I realize how much i love physiology and it seems like surgeons, especially residents, dont care about the why and just the what. Ive always loved the why and how and it seems like nobody here cares about that.

What subspecialty were you thinking about? Just curious before I add my 2 cents.


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[Newyawk]

You may just have a glorified view of medicine in general.

Huge possibility.

 

[Newyawk]

What subspecialty were you thinking about? Just curious before I add my 2 cents.


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Urology. I love specific parts of it and want to be an attending who operates like once a week and mostly sees patients in office

 

[Gurby]

Urology. I love specific parts of it

 

[Fission Chips]

Urology. I love specific parts of it and want to be an attending who operates like once a week and mostly sees patients in office

The schedule you cited is indeed what many Urologist maintain. Keep in mind though, you'll still have to take call in your career, which can be very tiresome if you're not into that sort of thing. Uro call can be pretty chill, but you'll still get called in. Do you think you +/- your significant other can deal with 5-6 years of a surgical residency? Your career will be 30+ years, so it's a drop in the bucket.

You'll get to do more than just stand there doing "close to nothing," which may help. You'll definitely get pimped more. But the hours are only going to get worse, and you're only going to get more tired.

What about interventional nephrology? What exactly about Urology is so attractive to you? The Urologists at my institution describe themselves as surgeons first, clinicians second. I don't personally know many private practice Urologists, so maybe they take a different view on things. However, the Urologists I do know love urologic surgery.

 

[Donald Juan]

Urology. I love specific parts of it and want to be an attending who operates like once a week and mostly sees patients in office

You sound like you'll be miserable in urology. You hate operating, working long hours (which at the very least you'll be doing in residency), and you say you like complex physiology. Urologists are plumbers that keep the pipes flowing.

 

[Newyawk]

You sound like you'll be miserable in urology. You hate operating, working long hours (which at the very least you'll be doing in residency), and you say you like complex physiology. Urologists are plumbers that keep the pipes flowing.

Dam. Strong statements. Yea but theyre interesting pipes.. i really like the pathology. also i never said i "hate" operating. But i can definitely live without it.

So which fields would allow me to be engaged in the physiology?

 

[watermelon master]

Dam. Strong statements. Yea but theyre interesting pipes.. i really like the pathology. also i never said i "hate" operating. But i can definitely live without it.

So which fields would allow me to be engaged in the physiology?

Anesthesia...

 

[Anti-PD1]

I did not like my gen surg rotation. I liked being in the OR, but I think gen surg at my particular institution was somewhat malignant. That and, I realized, the abdomen was not for me.

That's why you should explore surgical subspecialties before writing off surgery as a whole. ENT v. urology v. gen surg are all very different from each other.

Ended up sticking to my guns with neurosurgery and love it.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Dam. Strong statements. Yea but theyre interesting pipes.. i really like the pathology. also i never said i "hate" operating. But i can definitely live without it.

So which fields would allow me to be engaged in the physiology?

If you can live without the OR, do NOT go into a surgical subspecialty. You can still do procedures in other specialties.


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[Gurby]

I did not like my gen surg rotation. I liked being in the OR, but I think gen surg at my particular institution was somewhat malignant. That and, I realized, the abdomen was not for me.

That's why you should explore surgical subspecialties before writing off surgery as a whole. ENT v. urology v. gen surg are all very different from each other.

Ended up sticking to my guns with neurosurgery and love it.

Apologies if you've gone through this 100x before, but do you have any pro tips on narrowing down surgical specialty choice? Especially since so many of them love field-specific research, the earlier you figure it out the better.

As an M1 I've done shadowing in several surgical specialties - is it worth spending a day in every single one just to see if something grabs my interest? Even spending 1 day in each specialty seems like too little time to rule something out

It seems like it would be advantageous to narrow things down as much as possible before making your 3rd year schedule because you'll want to be doing aways in your specialty of choice to increase your chances of matching, not splashing around in the pool trying to figure out what you want.

 

[Newyawk]

If you can live without the OR, do NOT go into a surgical subspecialty. You can still do procedures in other specialties.


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Why tho? Why does everyone say that? And honestly theres nobody who cant live without it. Anyone who went into medicine could do another specialty and theyd be just fine. It almost sounds like a condescending thing that surgeons say to everyone else. "I love being here so if you dont love it as much as i do then dont be here"

 

[ndafife]

Apologies if you've gone through this 100x before, but do you have any pro tips on narrowing down surgical specialty choice? Especially since so many of them love field-specific research, the earlier you figure it out the better.

As an M1 I've done shadowing in several surgical specialties - is it worth spending a day in every single one just to see if something grabs my interest? Even spending 1 day in each specialty seems like too little time to rule something out

It seems like it would be advantageous to narrow things down as much as possible before making your 3rd year schedule because you'll want to be doing aways in your specialty of choice to increase your chances of matching, not splashing around in the pool trying to figure out what you want.

Figure out what the bread and butter cases for the specialty are, and if that isn't something you see yourself doing day in and day out then don't do it. If you can't put up with spinal fusions, neurosurgery isn't for you. If you don't like tonsillectomies, then ENT isn't for you. Gallbladders/Appendectomies and General Surgery/Cataracts and Optho, etc... Makes it pretty easy to throw things out that you don't really like

And if all else fails, go with the orifice that offends you least.

 

[Donald Juan]

Dam. Strong statements. Yea but theyre interesting pipes.. i really like the pathology. also i never said i "hate" operating. But i can definitely live without it.

So which fields would allow me to be engaged in the physiology?

What part of the pathology are you interested in? Stones? You can run a metabolic stone clinic after nephrology or endocrinology. Cancer? Heme/onc will get into the more advanced medical management of urologic cancers. Kidney disease? Obviously nephrology. I guess if you're fascinated with the pathology of BPH or incontinence....but even then most PCP's are doing primary medical management and referring after it fails and pts need more advanced/invasive options.

Why tho? Why does everyone say that? And honestly theres nobody who cant live without it. Anyone who went into medicine could do another specialty and theyd be just fine. It almost sounds like a condescending thing that surgeons say to everyone else. "I love being here so if you dont love it as much as i do then dont be here"

We say it because if that little statement scares you away then you do not have the resolve to finish residency or take the pressure of operating. I love urology, the operations, the mixture of patients, getting blood covered urine all over my shoes, penises, etc., and I still ponder quitting residency constantly even though I know I won't. I'm too close to the finish line and I know attending life is much better.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Why tho? Why does everyone say that? And honestly theres nobody who cant live without it. Anyone who went into medicine could do another specialty and theyd be just fine. It almost sounds like a condescending thing that surgeons say to everyone else. "I love being here so if you dont love it as much as i do then dont be here"

That’s the first question you have to ask yourself when you’re deciding between surgical specialties and medical specialties. Surgical residencies are too long and grueling if you don’t love being in the operating room, and can’t live without it. You will have trouble surviving residency and will be miserable. And your statement regarding that somebody who went into medicine “doing another specialty and being just fine” is completely false. If I were not a surgeon, I would leave medicine altogether.


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[doyouhaveaflag]

Why tho? Why does everyone say that? And honestly theres nobody who cant live without it. Anyone who went into medicine could do another specialty and theyd be just fine. It almost sounds like a condescending thing that surgeons say to everyone else. "I love being here so if you dont love it as much as i do then dont be here"

It's not meant to be condescending, it’s meant to support your happiness and sanity. It takes too much commitment and time if you don’t have the surgery bug.

I echo orthotraumaMD’s sentiment.
If I couldn’t do surgery, I wouldn’t do medicine at all. I would just go back to my old job in the lab. And I would be sad about it.

 

[Rads4lyfe]

Why tho? Why does everyone say that? And honestly theres nobody who cant live without it. Anyone who went into medicine could do another specialty and theyd be just fine. It almost sounds like a condescending thing that surgeons say to everyone else. "I love being here so if you dont love it as much as i do then dont be here"

It’s being realistic and not meant to be condescending. If you can see yourself being happy/fulfilled in a non-surgical field, then most people would recommend choosing that over surgery. The surgery lifestyle is just the worst. Why do you think so many people transfer out of surgery residency?

I was thinking about doing ortho at one point. But now i have most weekends off and work 55 hours a week while my surgical counterparts are slaving away. I couldnt be happier.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

My humble opinion: if you have any doubts about going into something surgical, don't go into surgery because you'll be miserable.

That was advice given to me to me by a trauma surgeon.

 

[Jesus1]

You should consider Anesthesia. There's a reasonable number of quick procedures you can do depending on the particular area you subspecialize in. And your physiology/pharmacology have to be clutch to be excellent in the field. Residency hours are long but are almost always around 55-65 hrs/week for all but the most malignant of programs.

 

[MSTPlease]

I didn't spend any time on the service so I might be wrong but short procedures + less overall OR time + lots of physiology to treat medically = optho, right?

 

[IMreshopeful]

I didn't spend any time on the service so I might be wrong but short procedures + less overall OR time + lots of physiology to treat medically = optho, right?

Ophtho has a very limited physiology base but it is true that the procedures are generally short and office time is more

Cardiology has a good mix of imaging, procedures, clinic, inpatient, and is almost entirely physiology based compared to any other field

 

[DocWinter]

It can be shortsighted to say "I hated X rotation" or "I felt at home in the OR, or nursery, lab, or clinic" without giving some context to your experience. Did you work with an incredible person that rotation, or did an Ahole jade your experience? Did you get an accurate representation of that field, or did you stand in the corner and you now hate OB because you never got a chance to do anything?

All rotations are not created equal. And all attendings are not decent human beings. Make sure to take account for such factors

 

[Fission Chips]

Why tho? Why does everyone say that? And honestly theres nobody who cant live without it. Anyone who went into medicine could do another specialty and theyd be just fine. It almost sounds like a condescending thing that surgeons say to everyone else. "I love being here so if you dont love it as much as i do then dont be here"

I dunno... I mean, obviously nobody is going to drop dead if they go 1 week without the OR. I could be happy doing anything in medicine, I did enjoy my FM rotation (super cush). I also could be happy being a snowboard instructor, bike taxi driver, or professional golfer. But to echo the sentiments here, my happy place is the OR. I don't feel tired or hunger or anything besides excitement and amazement at what we get to do there. That's the only place in the world I've found that I forget that time is a thing. It's only after I walk out of the OR that I realize I'm hungry and it's midnight and I've been on my feet for the last 18 hours and I miss my wife and my dogs. When I'm in there, things are just... different. It is seriously intoxicating. It was like that since my first year of med school, I'm just hoping it stays that way throughout residency to blunt the brutality of the hours on both myself and my wife (I also hope I match). It's really hard to describe, but now that I've found surgery, there is nothing else in life I could ever do that brings me the same level of happiness. Professional golf would be really close, but I think that I'd feel empty inside knowing what I was missing in the OR.

 

[Redpancreas]

It can be shortsighted to say "I hated X rotation" or "I felt at home in the OR, or nursery, lab, or clinic" without giving some context to your experience. Did you work with an incredible person that rotation, or did an Ahole jade your experience? Did you get an accurate representation of that field, or did you stand in the corner and you now hate OB because you never got a chance to do anything?

All rotations are not created equal. And all attendings are not decent human beings. Make sure to take account for such factors

This x 1000

 

[Newyawk]

I dunno... I mean, obviously nobody is going to drop dead if they go 1 week without the OR. I could be happy doing anything in medicine, I did enjoy my FM rotation (super cush). I also could be happy being a snowboard instructor, bike taxi driver, or professional golfer. But to echo the sentiments here, my happy place is the OR. I don't feel tired or hunger or anything besides excitement and amazement at what we get to do there. That's the only place in the world I've found that I forget that time is a thing. It's only after I walk out of the OR that I realize I'm hungry and it's midnight and I've been on my feet for the last 18 hours and I miss my wife and my dogs. When I'm in there, things are just... different. It is seriously intoxicating. It was like that since my first year of med school, I'm just hoping it stays that way throughout residency to blunt the brutality of the hours on both myself and my wife (I also hope I match). It's really hard to describe, but now that I've found surgery, there is nothing else in life I could ever do that brings me the same level of happiness. Professional golf would be really close, but I think that I'd feel empty inside knowing what I was missing in the OR.

Ive literally never been this passionate about anything so while im happy for you, this post does nothing to help me. You just sound like a crazy person.

 

[Basil246]

Ive literally never been this passionate about anything so while im happy for you, this post does nothing to help me. You just sound like a crazy person.

Then if you’re not that passionate about any field of medicine, shouldn’t you just go with one that will give you a good life style and more time to find something outside of work that you’re passionate about/interested in?

Edit:I’m a lowly soon-to-be MS1 so feel free to ignore my uninformed opinion

 

[Oso]

Ive literally never been this passionate about anything so while im happy for you, this post does nothing to help me. You just sound like a crazy person.

To be honest, that post sounds like a lot of the people from my class who went into surgery

 

[IMreshopeful]

Ive literally never been this passionate about anything so while im happy for you, this post does nothing to help me. You just sound like a crazy person.

It’s not crazy, it’s just that the poster is actually passionate about his field of study. Not everyone can feel that way. Most of us recognize that a job is a means to an end and that life outside of work is important, even if you don’t love your job. I like that my job allows me to help people instead of screwing them out of their money or savings, and is enjoyable enough that I don’t dread going to work. But I’m not in love with it. And I think in part to do surgery you have to love it to tolerate it.

 

[Newyawk]

It’s not crazy, it’s just that the poster is actually passionate about his field of study. Not everyone can feel that way. Most of us recognize that a job is a means to an end and that life outside of work is important, even if you don’t love your job. I like that my job allows me to help people instead of screwing them out of their money or savings, and is enjoyable enough that I don’t dread going to work. But I’m not in love with it. And I think in part to do surgery you have to love it to tolerate it.

This makes a lot of sense actually. I guess i really am not passionate about the OR. whats interesting too is that when i shadowed urology i really enjoyed what the surgery was doing for the patient and the outpatient stuff a lot but i never cared for the surgery. I realize now that i enjoy medically managing patients much more than surgically. Someone else can do the surgeries.
Also, i realize now how regimented surgery is. Ive never been "square" about medicine and i feel like you really have to follow specific rules in surgery. What ive always loved about medicine is the ability to think your way through and decide whats going on. It seems that surgeons go in knowing almost exactly what theyre going to do and do it step by step. This doesnt seem enjoyable to me at all.

 

[Redpancreas]

The schedule you cited is indeed what many Urologist maintain. Keep in mind though, you'll still have to take call in your career, which can be very tiresome if you're not into that sort of thing. Uro call can be pretty chill, but you'll still get called in. Do you think you +/- your significant other can deal with 5-6 years of a surgical residency? Your career will be 30+ years, so it's a drop in the bucket.

You'll get to do more than just stand there doing "close to nothing," which may help. You'll definitely get pimped more. But the hours are only going to get worse, and you're only going to get more tired.

What about interventional nephrology? What exactly about Urology is so attractive to you? The Urologists at my institution describe themselves as surgeons first, clinicians second. I don't personally know many private practice Urologists, so maybe they take a different view on things. However, the Urologists I do know love urologic surgery.

Interventional Nephrology?!?

 

[Newyawk]

Interventional Nephrology?!?

@Fission Chips is just trying to get rid of me as competition for the uro match. He knows my board score 😛

 

[Redpancreas]

Seriously though, what is interventional neurology? Are there any life saving procedures and does it pay well? Asking for a friend...

 

[Oso]

Interventional Nephrology?!?

Nephrologists Take Fistulas Into Their Own Hands

Interventional Nephrology

 

[afib123]

Seriously though, what is interventional neurology? Are there any life saving procedures and does it pay well? Asking for a friend...

Not sure what they exactly do other than cerebral angiograms but was on the stroke service working with residents applying to those fellowships. Seems like you have to practice both stroke and do interventional on the side but you get a nice 50k-100k bonus to your salary compared to a purely stroke specialists

 

[trobinsonmd]

When I was an MS1 and MS2, I was sure I was going to be a surgeon... literally did not see myself doing anything else. Then I shadowed a few surgeons and got some experience in the OR and I hated it... long and unpredictable hours, the personalities, etc etc... still loved the idea of being a surgeon though. Got to shadow an interventional radiologist and also an interventional cardiologist in the cath lab a few times and I loved both of them. The personalities clicked with mine, and it had a good mix of both clinical and procedural work... the hours were still a little on the longer end and the actual reason I ultimately did not end up picking those fields was because of the lead vests... I have a few herniated discs in my lower back, and those lead vests would have been the death of me... ended up shadowing a dermatologist and fell in love with the field... has a great work life balance and it is pretty mentally stimulating, so I ended up going with that... if you have not shadowed IR or interventional cards, I would see if you can try to shadow and see if it interests you... both awesome fields

 

[Fission Chips]

@Fission Chips is just trying to get rid of me as competition for the uro match. He knows my board score 😛

Honestly just trying to help you consider fields you may not know exist; I didn't know interventional nephrology was a thing until a couple of weeks ago after talking with one of our nephrology fellows. I didn't mean to come off as trying to "get rid of you as competition." If you love physiology/medicine/mental masturbation and dislike the OR, then a surgical specialty doesn't sound like the brightest idea to me... maybe I'm totally wrong though and maybe you'd flourish in there. I was just trying to get you to consider everything, because 5-6 years of a surgical residency isn't easy, and taking surgical call throughout your life isn't easy.

I don't know your board score, but judging by your hubris I'd guess it's substantially higher than mine. Congratulations. I don't think either of our board scores are going to be a differentiating factor, as (i'm assuming) we're both above average for the field.

 

[Newyawk]

Honestly just trying to help you consider fields you may not know exist; I didn't know interventional nephrology was a thing until a couple of weeks ago after talking with one of our nephrology fellows. I didn't mean to come off as trying to "get rid of you as competition." If you love physiology/medicine/mental masturbation and dislike the OR, then a surgical specialty doesn't sound like the brightest idea to me... maybe I'm totally wrong though and maybe you'd flourish in there. I was just trying to get you to consider everything, because 5-6 years of a surgical residency isn't easy, and taking surgical call throughout your life isn't easy.

I don't know your board score, but judging by your hubris I'd guess it's substantially higher than mine. Congratulations. I don't think either of our board scores are going to be a differentiating factor, as (i'm assuming) we're both above average for the field.

I was just messin around. Im happy that you found something you love to do. And i appreciate your advice. You are prob right.