Anyone planning on getting a masters or PhD before going to vet school?

[Backwoods Boy]

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I was wondering if anyone considered trying to obtain a master's or PhD before going to vet school? I know several people here have applied to both a master's program and vet school at the same time. I know that neither will hurt you. Also, if nothing else one would have more time to gain experience. If someone was like me (I had a rough freshman year) and had a decent GPA but nothing outstanding, would it be worthwhile. What do you all think about it?

 

[crittergal]

Some schools specifically state that they do not use graduate coursework in calculating GPA, although I can't recall which ones off the top of my head. It would certainly show you are able to handle a higher level of coursework. Short of the money, it can't hurt and if it's a route you want to pursue anyhow, I don't see the down side.

 

[theo22]

I think I know how you feel . . . 😱

I've been on this site checking out information and would appreciate responses to this question as well.
I applied, but did not get accepted to vet school this year. My feedback was basically not the year for me and to reapply next year. I have been accepted to do my masters in animal science; actually I soon have to decide. It is a two year commitment. So I have to put off apply to vet school next year. Or do I? I have been accepted to go back to the university I just graduated from and spend a year there to get my BA. Yes, I have my BSC but can have a BA in a year, in a subject I enjoyed, and take two more advanced science credits all while working on a dairy farm. Which will be more beneficially for my next application to vet school? That is the biggest question of all.

 

[feadog]

That's exactly what I did... I realized coming straight out of undergrad., I would probably not be very competitive so I applied to a handful of thesis-based Master's programs in my senior year and did not apply to vet school until this past year (graduated in '07).

I got in touch with my mentor before even applying to the program where I am now, met with him, and he knew (and was very supportive of) my plans to apply to vet school right from the beginning.

Because it was funded, it didn't result in any more debt and I was able to save over two years in preparation for vet school expenses and pay off undergrad. loans.

Oddly enough, the two places I was accepted (KSU and AVC @ UPEI) really didn't factor graduate grades into the GPA calculations, but I think the research and teaching experiences helped. Also, looking back, I needed the 2 years to mature a little more and was not quite ready for vet school right after college.

Now I just have to finish editing and get ready for my defense in 2 weeks 😱

 

[No Imagination]

Some schools specifically state that they do not use graduate coursework in calculating GPA, although I can't recall which ones off the top of my head.

The simple answer - They will (all that I've spoken to and looked at) use and calculate grad course work - but they also calculate undergrad.

The only way to avoid your undergrad (not really the question I know), is to retake ALL pre-reqs as a grad student (and that only works at SOME vet schools, and its not really very realistic).

The thing about grad work are grades tend to be inflated (I was a B/C student as undergrad, 3.7 gpa (I think) as a graduate). This is for several reasons.

A) You have nothing to do except these 2-3 hard classes a semester (Advanced Biochem and Physical Biochemistry really isn't that hard when it is the only think you are taking)

B) You are expected to teach, do research, write, go to conferences, ect. - They (prof.) tend to cut you some slack in classes

C) As a grad student, you are not 1/400 other students who all want to be "Pre-Med", you are 0.1% of the students who started, you are serious about it, and MUCH more dedicated (you are also more mature then when you started), so of course your grades will be higher.



I would def. take the MS (if you really think you can pull it off in 2 years).

Its only 1 extra year
It will help you a lot when you do get into vet school
May open more doors after vet school (don't know much about AS degrees)
Its a wonderful experience (I loved my grad school life (even if I want to strangle someone now)

 

[GellaBella]

I agree, if your gpa is not what you'd like it to be, a masters degree can help show vet school admission committees that you're dedicated and you can handle advanced material. But, like No Imagination said, grades are definitely inflated in grad school and adcoms know that.

Personally, as someone who has navigated the seas of PhD-dom and is preparing to graduate (IF MY FREAKING BIOCHEMISTRY EXPERIMENTS EVER FREAKING WORK. STUPID CLONING. STUPID PROTEIN). ...I would avoid going the PhD route unless you really Really REALLY love research. and even if you do really love research, even then I would hesitate to recommend it too strongly. but as I've said before, I'm slightly disgruntled. masters = 👍

 

[Tiempo]

The thing about grad work are grades tend to be inflated (I was a B/C student as undergrad, 3.7 gpa (I think) as a graduate). This is for several reasons.

A) You have nothing to do except these 2-3 hard classes a semester (Advanced Biochem and Physical Biochemistry really isn't that hard when it is the only think you are taking)

B) You are expected to teach, do research, write, go to conferences, ect. - They (prof.) tend to cut you some slack in classes

I WISH that were true of my experience in grad school. Had a kind of crazy department, and coursework was abundant, challenging, and no slack was given.

Having said that, getting a M.S. is a good thing, as long as you don't do what I did. (Since you're here, reading this, then you won't but I still have to say it.) I applied to grad school as an alternative to vet school after I didn't get in originally, thinking I would head for an alternative career. As a result, I did not try to get stellar, have-to-get-into-vet-school grades. That really, really puts a damper on your vet school app (mediocre undergrad GPA plus mediocre grad school GPA). When you finish your M.S. and apply again, you'll be competing for spots against students with fantastic undergrad GPAs and people that went to grad school solely to boost their vet school app, so you absolutely do not want a mediocre grad school GPA. JME, but I really think that combination was not good on my app.

 

[No Imagination]

Where did you do your MS? I guess a MS can be different, but with a 4 year program, 9 credits = FT, and there really are not that many classes TO take, I never really thought it that bad.

I do know some departments have it harder then I did, but thats true everyone. In some med schools, apparently Ph.D students have to take 1 year of Med. School classes (complete), thats gotta suck.

 

[No Imagination]

IF MY FREAKING BIOCHEMISTRY EXPERIMENTS EVER FREAKING WORK. STUPID CLONING. STUPID PROTEIN

Whatcha werkin on?

(despite what my degree says, I don't do DNA,RNA, but im pretty damn good with the protein)

 

[nyanko]

DNA > proteins

just sayin...

My graduate school experience thus far (finished year 1 of thesis-based MS) has been pretty crazy. While the coursework in and of itself does not look like a very big load, it is the fact that it is a major balancing act between classes, TAing and trying to get an appreciable amount of research done, plus my other part-time job at the VMTH, that makes it nuts. And personally, my classes have been pretty intensive. I find that it's probably ridiculously easy to get B's in grad school, and not too difficult to manage an A-, but getting an actual A takes a lot of effort still. I've managed to keep it at 1 A- and all the rest A's (and 1 A+, haha), but it certainly hasn't been easy, per se. What keeps me motivated is probably admittedly a bit of the "chip on shoulder" complex where I am constantly feeling like I need to prove myself and be the best at whatever I'm doing at the time. This is both good and bad, really.

And as far as adcoms looking at grad school GPA, oddly enough all the faculty members I speak to about it here at the SVM seem to think that my grad school GPA will actually help me out a lot, even though I tend to discount it and look at my grad school experience as more of a chance to show that I can handle the research aspect and balance a whole lot of things at once, honestly. At schools that technically don't figure grad school GPA into cumulative (there are some I've emailed back and forth with), most have said that although they don't count it in hard and fast numbers it does count pretty substantially for other portions of the application, so don't take that as a discouragement from applying to those, make sure to ask first!

 

[No Imagination]

DNA --> proteins

Fixed

 

[DVMorBust]

Fixed

 

[Tiempo]

Where did you do your MS? I guess a MS can be different, but with a 4 year program, 9 credits = FT, and there really are not that many classes TO take, I never really thought it that bad.

Classes at this program were combined into one year, so any 'real' classes were all up front and finished by the time your first year was finished. Actually started out in a Ph.D program, but after a few years of misery and realizing that no way was I wanting to pursue that as an alternative career, decided to cut my losses and was able to get a M.S. instead. I'd rather not say where I went on a public forum, though... 😏 😉

 

[nyanko]

Fixed

you forgot something...

DNA------>RNA------>proteins
(^-----------|)

Crick would be disappointed.

 

[No Imagination]

Wasn't that Kornberg?

EDIT: NM, that was DNA Pol

 

[JumpHigherLivie]

So I'm also one of those crazy PhD --> DVM people, except that I'm also doing a hybrid dual-degree program so I'm just finishing year 3 of my PhD, will be starting vet school in the fall an dhope to have my PhD defended in the summer between year 2 and 3 of vet school (so a 5 year PhD) and then go onto clinicals at 3.5 years (like a reg. vet student here) PhD commitment free.

I would not, not, not recommend applying to grad school to do a PhD as just a "back up" or if your heart really isn't in research -- it's harder, requires more time, sweat and tears than many people give it credit for. (especially vet students froom my experiences lol). Every program is different ... but I took a total of about 8 credits/ semester (this sounds like not a lot ... until you realize that I also spent 80+ hours/week in the lab...). Our first year there is about a 25% failure rate in class (anything below a 3.0 = fail), well one particular class, and then you usually end up getting dismissed (read kicked out). We loose a few at prelims/quals as well.

You will burn too too many bridges if you apply to fill your time and then leave because you applied to vet school and got in. Don't do it -- it's a small world. These things come back to get you.

So basically I would sit down and really REALLY evaluate why you want to go to grad school. Do you want to do research as a future career? (if the answer is "no" or "not sure" I really wouldn't recommend a PhD)

Hope that helps a little.

PS -- cloning is kicking my ***** right now too. 🙂

 

[Tiempo]

. I would not, not, not recommend applying to grad school to do a PhD as just a "back up" or if your heart really isn't in research -- it's harder, requires more time, sweat and tears than many people give it credit for.

I agree w/ this. I knew very (very!) shortly after starting on a PhD I was in the wrong place, wrong field, but couldn't "quit" 🙄 so tried to muscle my way through a PhD. Not a good idea. Ends up very painful in the long run.

 

[JumpHigherLivie]

For whatever it's worth, I do love research, but there are days (sometimes many in a row) where I have to muscle through them too ... and bribe myself out of bed and into the lab at undecently early hours with promises of stopping for high-calorie-sugar-filled wonderful mochas/lattes from the local shop on the way in.

 

[Tiempo]

For whatever it's worth, I do love research, but there are days (sometimes many in a row) where I have to muscle through them too ...

Oh, I'm sure not saying that most PhD students don't! It's just that I think it helps a bit to be vaguely interested in your own research. 😉

 

[Backwoods Boy]

I'm not thinking about grad school as a backup to vet school. I am thinking about doing an MS before vet school. I have a feeling that the specific idea will hang around in my mind. I like the professors at my school that in the my specific field so that helps.

 

[cyn11]

That is what I'm doing right now (MS), although when I started I didn't have plans on going to vet school. Sometime during the past year I realized academia is NOT for me, but I did want a career involving science and animals.

I have found it pretty easy to maintain excellent grades in grad school because I only took about 2 classes per semester, and most of my credit hours are taken up by independent research. Like somebody said earlier, I think an MS might be worth doing if you think you can do it in under 2 years. Many people at my school take about 3 years (a few even 4!) to complete an MS. I'm going into my 3rd year because I personally benefit from a lot of structure and deadlines (which is almost nonexistent IMO in grad school). But being here (esp. teaching) really gave me some new perspectives on how science really works, so all in all I would say that I don't regret it, I would perhaps just like to change the project I am working on.

If you decide to do it, just make sure that you work on something that you have serious interest in, or take on a relatively light project. It is amazing how some minor detail in your research or hangup in your thesis writing can suck up time, so just be careful!

 

[Backwoods Boy]

It looks as though everyone who has responded who chose to take the M.S. route were happy with it. I will probably look into it some more and discuss it with some of the graduate professors in my field. Thankfully I get along with a majority of them.

 

[GellaBella]

Whatcha werkin on?

(despite what my degree says, I don't do DNA,RNA, but im pretty damn good with the protein)

ugh it should be so simple. I'm just trying to express and purify two proteins (toxin-antitoxin systems) from E.coli. Apparently other people have been able to do it before as well...at least they published they had. unfortuntely they are competitive labs and refuse to send us any of their purified proteins. *sigh* so here I am trying to make them myself and just spinning in a circle. The sequencing looks ok. they are in frame, my IPTG is good (I'm also expressing and purifying other proteins successfully). Its just these. two. proteins. I've tried low temps, different media, different vectors. One of the PIs from this other lab that has purified the proteins came here and gave a seminar, and he did mention there was a 'trick' to it. but of course his papers don't mention what this trick is and he refuses to say. Its a mess.

end of hijack. back to the lab.

 

[Backwoods Boy]

I have one question. How did you all decide what project to take on?

 

[nyanko]

When you ask a question like that, it's evident that you're going about this sort of backwards - you should have at the very least some general idea of the sort of project/research you would like to do, and THEN decide on going to grad school, not the other way around!

At least if you're going to go into a research based degree (thesis MS or PhD), this is true, anyway. When you know what you are interested in possibly doing, search for faculty in that field who are active in the scientific community (recent publications, presentations, etc) and research their schools and laboratories. If it looks like they are still doing research that interests you and you could stand to be at their university (and have a realistic shot at getting in - some MS and PhD programs can be every bit as selective as vet school), shoot them an email and be straightforward with them. Talk about some of their work that you have recently seen and relate it to something you might be interested in doing. Say that you're interested in vet med and talk about how your research might relate to it or enhance your education, etc. More than likely for an MS you won't be dreaming up your own premise for a thesis, but will be handed something that was maybe abandoned by someone else, or otherwise semi-funded but unfinished. PhD dissertations are much more in-depth and you may get to have more input, but it still comes down to what is currently getting funded in your field, and to a non-negligible extent the preferences and research of your PI.

My own experience is that I was handed something that had been through a couple of other graduate students and had been logistically challenging for them, but I felt that their methodology had been lacking and made the research completely my own. I do a lot of things on the side in the lab, but am quite satisfied with my thesis research and with my progress on it so far. There's no way I'd be able to do it if I wasn't absolutely obsessed with my field (companion animal genetics) though, so definitely do your homework BEFORE deciding on graduate school...

 

[Backwoods Boy]

Nyanko, I am only considering it at this time. I will only be a sophomore this year so I have time to think about whether I want to go on to grad school or straight to vet school.

 

[nyanko]

In either case, you might want to look into speaking with some professors of courses you enjoyed or feel like you had an affinity for, and seeing if you can get in and do some research with them. It's good experience anyway and the majority of vet schools look on it as a plus, but it is absolutely essential if you decide on graduate school.

 

[TSUJC]

(IF MY FREAKING BIOCHEMISTRY EXPERIMENTS EVER FREAKING WORK. STUPID CLONING. STUPID PROTEIN)

AMEN! I should have been done with my masters in two years, instead it took me three years because of some STUPID membrane-bound protozoan proteins and one particular DNA sequence with stop codons everywhere! Whatever you decide, don't do molecular work....go with field work!

If you are wanting to increase your GPA make sure that the school you plan on applying to will include your graduate GPA into your overall GPA. Like crittergal said, some schools DO NOT consider your grad. GPA.

Lastly, figure out how you will be graded on research hours during your grad work. For example, Texas A&M will give you an unsatisfactory in all your research hours until you actually defend and get a degree then they will do a grade change and change them all to satisfactory. This hurt me a lot because when I was applying to vet schools I had to explain a bunch of U's on my transcript! Some schools will give you actually grades for research, this could be to your benefit.

 

[david594]

I was wondering if anyone considered trying to obtain a master's or PhD before going to vet school? I know several people here have applied to both a master's program and vet school at the same time. I know that neither will hurt you. Also, if nothing else one would have more time to gain experience. If someone was like me (I had a rough freshman year) and had a decent GPA but nothing outstanding, would it be worthwhile. What do you all think about it?

From your most recent post and only now realizing that you are going into your sophmore year...

You have PLENTY of time between now and when you apply to gain experience. And only being one year in with a "decent GPA" after a "rough" year there is no reason you can't have a competitive to above average GPA by the time you are applying.

So unless you are really interested in research for the sake of research, I would focus more on your next 3 years, if your ultimate goal is vet school. Do the Phd or MS if those are what you want, not because you think they will help your vet school chances. A Masters can be a great way for a student to go back who needs more coursework and already has an undergrad degree. With 3 years left though your not quite in that boat yet.

 

[cyn11]

I have one question. How did you all decide what project to take on?

My project was basically given to me by my advisor. I was interested in the general direction of his research (so I picked him as my advisor), and he told me of an idea he had, and I agreed to work on it.

But like everyone has said, you've got plenty of time to raise your GPA and whatnot. You should definitely try to work in a few labs just to see what you may or may not be interested in. It's never too early to get started in undergrad research, esp. if you decide to go to grad school. But research experience is also good even if you decide not to go later. I believe most schools have paid undergraduate research programs to which you can apply, or you can just ask professors whose research you might be interested in if they can give you some mini projects. Sometimes working on something you think you'd be interested in will completely change your mind.

 

[TSUJC]

I have one question. How did you all decide what project to take on?

You do whatever there is funding for. Your PI basically tells you what you will be working on.

 

[Backwoods Boy]

You do whatever there is funding for. Your PI basically tells you what you will be working on.

Well, I guess that'd make the decision process much easier.

 

[No Imagination]

You do whatever there is funding for. Your PI basically tells you what you will be working on.

While I would agree with that partly, you have to have some interest in the project and direction. Before I got my current gig I was offered to do Molecular work on Maize... I personally can think of nothing more boring... so I held out till the PI I wanted to work with got $$.

Yeah, you cant always get exactly what you want, but if your try some times...

If you end up with a project you hate, and do not have interest in, i don't see how you can ever finish... Its hard enough when you love what you're doing.

 

[TSUJC]

I started my work with a PI who had a project I was really really interested in (which is why I applied to that particular program). Unfortunately, the pharmaceutical company that was funding the study backed out last minute. I was taken on by another PI that had more funding, I was given a project I didn't want but I had to take it because I needed something. No Imagination hit the nail on the head, if you end up with a project you hate, and do not have interest in, your life will become a living research nightmare!! Don't get me wrong, I work with the top investigators in my field and I have learned more than I thought my brain could handle BUT I would have liked another project (more applied research, not molecular).

My biggest suggestion would be to do your research before you chose a PI. Talk to other students in that lab, see if they are happy. I know this might sound silly but it will give you a feeling about the "atmosphere" of the lab. You may also want ask about how your project will be funded and how long your PI expects the research to take. Some investigators think a 2 years masters is about right while others have no problem about keeping you indefinitely. Lastly, ask about the hours you are expected to be in the lab. Will your research require work on weekend, holidays ect. These are things that are important to know before you make a commitment. I sure wish I had asked.

 

[Backwoods Boy]

My biggest suggestion would be to do your research before you chose a PI. Talk to other students in that lab, see if they are happy. I know this might sound silly but it will give you a feeling about the "atmosphere" of the lab. You may also want ask about how your project will be funded and how long your PI expects the research to take. Some investigators think a 2 years masters is about right while others have no problem about keeping you indefinitely. Lastly, ask about the hours you are expected to be in the lab. Will your research require work on weekend, holidays ect. These are things that are important to know before you make a commitment. I sure wish I had asked.

Thanks for the the tip. I'll try to remember that.